PIC: Bush v. Manning

[yurbud]

[xchrom]

1. None of that matters now.

We have a democratic president.

Wait...wut?

[rgbecker]

2. OK. Test question: Which one is part of the 1% and which one is part of the 99%?

Still having trouble getting the OWS thing?

Know of any other examples?

[gateley]

6. Right on! nt

[Fawke Em]

24. Good point!

Bravo!

[noise]

3. The difference

Insider vs. outsider is the true criteria.

Bush's patriotism is not up for review. Consequently he must have acted in good faith.

Manning's patriotism is up for review. Thus his conduct is to be regarded in the realm of a traitor, malcontent, etc.

[treestar]

4. How was it Manning who "told us the truth about Iraq."

Why does he get credit? We knew Iraq was wrong long before we'd ever heard of him.

[Electric Monk]

5. One example: He leaked the video of an American Apache helicopter gunning down civilians

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak/

[duhneece]

7. Revealing illegal actions paid for by us taxpayers makes him a hero

I pray he will be ok.

[yurbud]

8. and Obama didn't exactly challenge the Bush narrative on Iraq

[ProgressoDem]

30. Haha, what?

You are aware that Obama actually did challenge it.

http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/Obama2002War.htm

[yurbud]

35. as president--that was a great speech though

[ProgressoDem]

36. You know we're out of Iraq, right?

As in, totally reversed the Bush policy of being at war there.

[midnight]

40. I think our tax dollars are still hard at work their via private armies....

The truth is more complicated. It turns out the Obama administration is leaving behind a huge contingent from the State Department along with thousands of armed private contractors. The possibility for violence between Americans and Iraqis is very real.

To dig into the details, I spoke to Spencer Ackerman, who has been covering the issue closely for Wired’s Danger Room.
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/17/no_the_u_s_is_not_leaving_iraq/

[yurbud]

42. he was negotiating to the end to keep troops there. If he was doing so insincerely or with a wink a

nod to Iraqis, that would be fine with me, but we don't know if that was the case yet.

[Octafish]

17. The tape also caught the glee in mass murder...

...the soldiers/CIA laughed when they saw they killed innocent children. For that truth, Manning must be punished.

Whatever happened to "The Truth shall set you free?"

[rhett o rick]

9. Whistle-blowers rub you the wrong way, dont they? Why is that?

And dont try to rationalize that Manning isnt a whistle-blower. The point of this OP as I see it, is to point out the inequity of the 1% vs. the 99% and that rubs you the wrong way. One of the two is responsible for the torture and deaths of many and will not get punished. The other has already been punished and has killed no one.

[treestar]

10. whistleblowed what?

It is silly to love him and idolize him merely for breaking the rules.

We all knew the problems with Iraq. We did not need him to reveal classified information. As it is, I hope he didn't cause someone to get killed (someone who was working for us).

[U4ikLefty]

11. transparent loyalty to power.

[treestar]

19. Transparent resistance to all governmental authority and to the law

just for the sake of that - what sense does that make? We can't even defend the rule of law without being accused of that?

Whistleblowed what?

[U4ikLefty]

22. WTF?!? Do you just type random words?

I'm done with you.

[treestar]

23. No that was a response to you.

I merely reversed what you did so you should WTF to yourself.

What did Manning Whistleblow?

[rhett o rick]

12. It is dishonest for you to say that he is being "loved and idolized".

We didnt know much of what was happening in Iraq except what our government wants us to know. That apparently is ok with you. But you seem to back those in power over those that are struggling against those in power. In 1776 i think you would be a Tory.

[treestar]

20. What did he reveal?

No I would not have been a Tory. Get away from your personal attacks and back to the issue.

Why is it OK with you just on principle that national security laws should always be disregarded and that anyone who reveals the government's operation is automatically a hero?

[rhett o rick]

25. When "security laws" are used by our overlords to hid from us

autocracies they are committing in our name, those laws are not just. Didnt Bush and Cheney effectively cancel the rule of law? Why do you selectively want to use it on one of the 99%?

It should be clear that We The People have a huge uphill fight to restore our Democracy and Manning is fighting for the side I am on.

My equating you with a Tory was not meant as an attack, but pointing out that in many of your posts you side with those in power or at least criticize those that are fighting against the 1%'s dominance. Did some of our founders break the law in their fight for freedom? Of course they did, and many were hanged.

The Revolution is here, and you need to pick a side.

[treestar]

26. Those in power can never be sided with?

You show where you are they are wrong ipso facto.

I tend to "side" with them here merely by questioning automatic condemnation of them. Again you are making it personal.

What did Manning reveal as whistleblower?

[rhett o rick]

34. Again you attempt to put words in my mouth. I didnt say that "those in power

can never be sided with". However, I will say that when Cheney was in power, I would agree that one should never side with that power. Where i might agree that one should not always side against those in power, I would also argue that one shouldnt always side with those in power just because they happen to call themselves Democrats.

I want transparency in government and since they are supposed to be representing me at my pleasure, I think I can demand it. But confidentiality laws are used by our government to hide their actions from We The People that are not needed to be hidden for security reasons but to hid their actions from those that elected them so they cant be held accountable.

As for "making it personal", I dont know what you are talking about. You are obviously on a different side than I am in this class war, but my pointing that out shouldnt be considered an attack.

As far as what has Manning revealed? You can find out as easily as I can. I am guessing you choose not to.

Good luck to you.

[noise]

13. Excessive secrecy was used to fool the public

into supporting the invasion of Iraq. The insiders knew the intel was complete bullshit.

Insiders have abused secrecy laws to manipulate the public which has resulted in horrendous consequences. The Manning leaks pale in comparison. Look at 9/11. Have you even seen a tragedy more exploited? What makes it worse is that the government officials who continue to exploit 9/11 have never accounted for pre-9/11 conduct. Instead they spout garbage talking points that warn of damage to national security if information is released. Evidently there is nothing wrong with exploiting the public at every turn with propaganda and fearmongering. Only when someone dares to expose the lies is there talk of investigations and prison sentences.

[treestar]

21. While you are right in what your post says, where does it also say that

Manning is the one who exposed all of this?

The exploitation of 911 is something we all allowed (as a country) before anyone ever heard of Manning. And those of us who did not like it argued against it in that time too.

[Scuba]

15. You're wrong on this one. Manning deserves to be decorated, not incarcerated. n/t

[midnight]

41. Great call Scuba....

[The Wizard]

31. He did his duty in accordance

with the Geneva Convention to report war crimes. All military service members are required to be informed of edicts of the Geneva Convention.
The United States military committed war crimes. That may be an uncomfortable fact in this era of uniform worship, but it's a fact.

[Hippo_Tron]

14. Regardless of whether or not Manning is a hero, traitor, or whatever

The fact that he spent nine months in solitary while Dick Armitage, Karl Rove, Scooter Libby, and that whole collection of stooges who leaked the name of a CIA agent never saw the inside of a jail cell is ridiculous.

Leaking classified information is clearly only considered a serious crime when the peons do it.

[rgbecker]

16. Exactly right on.

Those serving right now, take note.

[Overseas]

18. The one who followed the Nuremberg Principles is in jail.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/full/390

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. Blowhard vs Whistleblower.

[yurbud]

28. the mother of a dead Iraqi kid would use a stronger word for Bush

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. Murderous blowhard.

[The Wizard]

32. Bush

is a serial killer with impunity.

[wakemewhenitsover]

33. +1 n/t

[_ed_]

37. Bush isn't prosecuting him

And Bush didn't confine him in solitary from 2009-2012. Bush also isn't prosecuting him for "aiding the enemy."

I think someone else is President now. And that President his waging an unprecedented war on whistleblowers like Manning.

[yurbud]

38. the point isn't that Bush is prosecuting him but that Bush isn't BEING prosecuted himself

but the sentiment is correct as far as it goes.

[unkachuck]

39. K&R....America in a nutshell....n/t