To those criticizing the re-opening of businesses and public spaces...

[brooklynite]

...what is your strategy? It’s easy to o just blame Republicans for being irresponsible, but Democrats have been implementing these as well. Continued lockdowns are bearable by white collar workers who can work from home, but they’re a huge burden on small businesses and the working class. What conditions nee3d to be met before you would let openings occur?

[onecaliberal]

1. This describes exactly my sentiments.

Boon
12.

So how many people do you want to die so people can go back to work?
We are already at 85,000?

What do you say to these people as they are dying? that they are heroes for supporting your lifestyle?

What do you say to their families and loved ones? "I'm sorry your grandfather suffocated to death from a deadly virus, but I have to go to work?"

I never thought I would see the day when people are arguing we need to murder hundreds of thousands of people so businesses can stay open.

[brooklynite]

7. Are you therefore saying that we should remain closed indefinitely...

...say, 12-18 months until a vaccine is possible?

[onecaliberal]

27. You don't get to choose when it is safe for me and my family.

I will trust Science and Doctors.

If you don't already realize, this is the case for most people. Business can open all they want. The majority of this country can still think critically. We are not going to these places. If you think you can survive with 1/3 of the country as patrons (the pandemic deniers) be my guest. You do know they'll start dropping off too? I wonder if you'll care why.

[MichMan]

33. Yep, 100 % your decision.

You can stay quarantined in your own home as long as you want. Pretty certain you wont catch anything that way. Nothing is stopping you from doing just that.

[onecaliberal]

35. So long the selfishness of the money over life crowd is around that's how it will be.

There will definitely be less of them over time. #ProLifeMyAss

On Edit: See #34

[MichMan]

38. If people don't feel safe going out or working, no one is forcing them to.

Why wouldn't someone who thought they were in grave danger of losing their life at work just quit for their own safety and well being?

[onecaliberal]

44. #34

[Autumn]

67. I imagine money will force them to go back to work.

[MichMan]

69. So that means they value money too.

I thought people shouldn't value money over lives?

[Autumn]

74. Nonsense. That has no bearing on my comment and is irrelevant. It takes money to survive,

their COVID unemployment will not last long enough for this pandemic to end, the lack of money will force them to go back out to work. Even people who have immune problems. When all the states are open the politicians will end it, because we know repukes value money over life.

[MichMan]

77. Maybe you should have the same empathy for business owners too?

Many whom will lose everything and be forced out of business if the shut downs continue for months.

No one has any problems saying they value money over lives, do they?

My employer just announced last week they are filing for bankruptcy due to the shut down. Two manufacturing plants are being closed permanently putting hundreds out of work. while three others were spared for now. According to people posting here, the shut down needs to continue another few months.

By then, all of the plants may be closed putting hundreds more out of work. I'm over 60, so if that occurs I can maybe scrounge thru garbage cans at gas stations looking for returnables.

[Autumn]

78. You don't know that I don't have empathy for business owners. I replied to your comment

that no one is forcing them to go back to work.

If people don't feel safe going out or working, no one is forcing them to.

Why wouldn't someone who thought they were in grave danger of losing their life at work just quit for their own safety and well being?

Money will make people go back, they can't live without it. Few people have the luxury of quitting a job for their own safety and well being.

[democrattotheend]

108. Great, you do you

Stay home until 2050 if that's what makes you feel most comfortable. But most people aren't going to be that patient, nor should they be. Life has to go on at some point, and I am concerned that Democrats risk coming across as out of touch and elitist supporting indefinite lockdowns with no concern for the economic devastation for workers and small businesses.

[JonLP24]

111. Experts say the US opened up too soon

America opened ‘too quickly,’ expert says
“I think from the Canadian perspective the big problem is opening the border too soon to the usual traffic would be a mistake because here we haven’t had the same degree of disease activity,” said Dr. Evans.

In some states like Iowa, Wyoming and North Dakota, the governors never issued a stay-at-home order, while most states have allowed for the reopening of retail businesses. In very few states, there were state-wide directives regarding lockdowns in place, and in North Carolina they continued to allow mass religious gatherings.

“I think the Americans have gone to opening up their economy and society in general much too quickly,” said Dr. Evans.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/canada-us-border-closed-covid-19-202647570.html

I don't think people realize opening too soon can make these economic problems worse and a second wave could be worse because people won't be as patient as they are now.

I think the Republicans look worse politicizing this crisis. In Canada 67% don't want a reopening until there is a vaccine and that is because their head of state is on the same page as the science. We look really bad to the rest of the world.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

55. Somehow I think Aids is different from Covid 19.

I could be wrong, but isn't Aids just a teensy-weensy bit harder to catch?

[Mariana]

117. An lot of right-wingers love to make that comparison, though.

I see it constantly from my Trump-worshiping relatives.

[MichMan]

12. Looks like the answer is zero deaths then.

If it's not zero, what number would you suggest is acceptable?

When should we ban automobiles? How many traffic fatalities are we willing to accept, just so people can drive ?

Need to ban mass transit as well. Much higher odds of getting infected by someone crammed inside a bus, train or subway.

[LanternWaste]

84. By its own implicit parameters, your argument then denies the original shut down as a good, yes?

If not, what then is the precise and relevant difference between the first weeks of the shut down and the economic Apocalypse you prophecize (within the cost/benefit parameters you yourself have belabored to others while failing to answer it yourself)?

[Tipperary]

103. "Prophesize" is spelled with an s, not a c.

[Calculating]

68. Easy to say when it's not YOUR business or job on the line

Some people can work from home or work in tech fields, meanwhile other people are facing the loss of their dreams and everything they've worked for.

[MichMan]

71. My employer declared bankruptcy last week from being shut down

Two manufacturing plants in other states were closed permanently putting several hundred people out of work. Ours was spared for now.

Listening to people here, they should remain shutdown for a few more months until the remaining three plants are also forced to close for good. I'm over 60, dont want to have to start over again.

[SharonClark]

2. If I were governor . . .

mandatory masks for employees and clients (no shoes, no shirt, no mask, no entry),
social distancing of 6 feet in all public places,
testing all employees,
obey OSHA rules and regulations,
free masks,
cheap hand sanitizer,
trump in a dunk tank.

[Sukee]

9. Testing? You're paying for tests?

Because you know absence of a fever does not mean you're not asymptomatic, right? Cheaper hand sanitizer may mean less effective! Loving the Trump in a dunk tank!!!!!!!!!

[ProfessorGAC]

30. Cheaper Hand Sanitizer Is Less Effective?????

Really? How?
Those products make a health claim. Therefore they must follow FDA guidelines.
One of those guidelines is listing the active ingredient.
If the EtOH, or IPA content is under 70%, the product will not conform to the industry claim.
Lower cost in this case, likely means less emollient, more water, cheaper & larger bottles. It's still has to be 70% alcohol.
It's efficacy against microbes would be identical.

[Blue_true]

50. Ohhhh, someone knows their product manufacturing chemistry.

You are exactly right, I can make two different mixtures of liquids, each would have pretty much the very same effacy against a specific problem (bacteria, virus, ect). One would leave your skin feeling great, the other would extract something from your skin that you need. The latter will almost always cost up 50% or more less than the former and typically will come in a big bottle (i.e., drug or grocery store lotions, even the supposedly good ones).

Less expensive is not always worse, but for skin care products, it typically is.

[ProfessorGAC]

61. It Would Never Have No Emolients

The FDA claims include the minimization of harm to the skin.
Also, the phase chemistry requires fatty acid derivatives & glycerin in order to build viscosity, otherwise the product would have the consistency of vodka!
If one doesn't care about anything but cost, it would be cheaper to buy isopropanol and handlotion, in bulk, and tell staff & customers to use both, in that order.
A few of things we pay for with hand sanitizer: a nice bottle, attractive labeling, & convenience. There are ways around that if cost is the only consideration.
I did a great deal of work on the molecules that kill bacteria & destroy viruses. Mostly on reaction dynamics to increase purity & reduce batch times. I've got one novel microbicide on my resume. It helped me retire 4 years early.
I've worked with nearly every producer of cleaning & sanitizing products, and knew their microbiologists well. Hard not to learn this stuff when you're with the experts in the field.

[Blue_true]

66. I am no expert, but I do mix serums, and lotions for my intermediates.

Hand sanitizer has very few components in it, basically alcohol and water or aloe vera. The consistency of most hand sanitizers really are not that far off from that of vodka. When they start becoming more complex and move toward being more of a serum, the price starts going up. Mixing aloe vera and alcohol to get a smooth serum is a bear, it takes lots of emulsifying wax and fatty alcohol to blend in the aloe vera, which tends to want to agglomerate by itself, just the time, the effort and the specialized equipment required to overcome that tendency by aloe runs up the costs. Most emulsifying waxes and fatty alcohols won't add a a large amount to the cost, they are relatively inexpensive, unless a person prefers to use "natural" versions of those chemical classes. Add in a few other ingredients like lavender and chamomile, the costs keep going up.

[ProfessorGAC]

90. Most Commercial Versions...

...have 8 or 9 ingredients not counting the alcohol.
Just IPA & aloe very does not make the viscosity what we get with commercial brands.
That's why I added a 30 mole ethoxylate of stearic acid & glycerin to mine.
It looks and feels just like the 2 big selling brands. (Not doing an ad here. If you want to know the best sellers, PM me.)
With just IPA & aloe, the viscosity (at 70% alcohol) is about the same as corn oil.
Adding the waxes, as you suggest, would work well, too.

[Blue_true]

107. I use emulsifying wax, Olivem 1000, Cetyl Alcohol and Sunflower Wax to set

the texture of my intermediates. Look like you use a more processed product to set the viscosity of your mixtures, that is ok, I just prefer to take a route that use minimally processed or one step from the plant ingredients. As many things in life are, what a person feels comfortable with depends upon their philosophy, you seem to have a high level of comfort with ingredients that have undergone a number of chemical reactions to derive the final ingredient, that is fine when your knowledge base is capable of properly analyzing the PROS and CONS, I just am not at that level.

[ProfessorGAC]

109. Cetyl Alcohol Is Derived

It's a good choice by the way!
But, if coconut oil is split to the fatty acids, the C16 is distilled to probably 95+% of that chain. Maybe as high as 98%.
Then, it's partially reduced (opposite of oxidation) with hydrogen in the presence of a nickel catalyst. The extra oxygen on the fatty acid becomes water, and the terminal carbon is saturated with an extra hydrogen. So, the fatty acid becomes a fatty alcohol.
Still coconut or palm based, but not a natural product. There's a lot of reaction chemistry taking place.
It's possible, I suppose, that it could be extracted from the refining bottoms, but that is likely so costly for the yield, few would actually do it.
There is a little(!) bit of cetyl alcohol in the oil itself (<100ppm?), but is mostly lost when refining the oil.
The olivem is different. It's separated from the natural oil by crystalline fractionation. There's no chemical reaction taking place. Just chilling and filtering.
The sunflower wax is the same as the Olivem.
I've been to one partner product site that made 3 molecular weights of Olivem. I think it was 300, 600, & 1,000, but not certain.

[Blue_true]

110. You have a lot of knowledge in this area.

Yes, fatty alcohols are processed. But I consider their processing to be minimal, as opposed to highly synthesized alternatives that are used in most commercial products. Hydrogen based synthesis is the modern method for making Cetyl alcohol, as you surely would know, the old method involved use of a strong hydroxyl group base.

When I started making my intermediates a little more than two years ago, all were 100% oil based, but you would certainly know that if people use those products in their bathrooms, they will not stay 100% oil based, water will get into them and if there are not anti-bacterial agents worked into the formulation, will cause problems. I tried essential oils as anti-bacs, but because they come with both a smell and skin activity, that only goes so far. Then I slowly moved to purposely adding water and vegetable glycerine to later products, that is when, in my developing experience, I ran headfirst into the difficult emulsifying problem, first I tried waxes, of course that didn't go well. It turns out that some 100% oil based products, while effective at solving a targeted problem, are somewhat limited in allowing moisture to get to the skin, hence the reason why I started working with kosher vegetable glycerine and water additions.

There is a lot of science behind oil-water or water-oil emulsions, as you surely are aware of, it's is both facinating and frustrating to encounter and figure out that science when formulating intermediates, there is both science and art involved in getting the perfect "feel" with an emulsion.

[ProfessorGAC]

112. Organic Physical Chemistry

Is my professional specialty, plus a whole lot of reaction dynamics work.
Fatty alcohols have been made as I described since I graduated with my BS in 1976.
The other derivatives, you'll be surprised, involve little added synthesis other than that required to be actually functional.
I've been in a few dozen plants that make finished cleaning products, sanitizing agents, and use tons of surface active & emulsifying products. Plus, spent even more time in the facilities that make the active ingredients that go into those commercial formulations.
If I didn't know a lot about this stuff, I would have had to pay no attention for 3 decades!
I know formulators from about 2 dozen companies, or I did. I'm retired now!
One friendly tip on commercial cleaning products: when looking a discount brands, look up the active ingredient values on Google and compare to premium & mid-line brands.
Almost always, they're cheaper because there is less active & more water.
They're cheaper, but they don't work as well!

[Sukee]

114. Exactly!!!!

[onecaliberal]

10. this is at least reasonable. Not what we're doing now... Just go take your chance.

No one in mu family is expendable.

[IowaGuy]

3. I'm old enough to seen more people than I can stand on their death bed.....

not one wished they had spent more time at work.

[Sukee]

5. Bravo!!!!!

[Sukee]

4. The strategy is to stay alive! Life over money!

I am a small business owner! Been in business for over 32years, but guess what? The health of my family comes first! Do I really put money over being around the public and chance bringing something back to my parents and my family? Seriously? I know everyone must put food on the table, but to what extent are you willing to put your business over your health? Good luck in 'sacrificing' someone as the Republicans have stated! Choose which of your friends or family is expendable. I will never make that choice! I've already lost 3 to this virus!

We open too soon, and you're right back at square one only you're sick and the medical bills are piling WHILE YOUR BUSINESS IS STILL CLOSED! As I said...good luck with that because I will not put my clients nor my family on the table for sacrificing.

[onecaliberal]

15. Thank you

[jmg257]

26. You would choose to stay closed, and allow others to choos to open.(?)

Seems fair.

Issue is being able to trust a vast majority of the public to agree to comply with rules, public and in businesses.

[Sukee]

115. I am all for those who want to test the waters first, because

Apparently, subpoenas, mandates, laws, rules, and regulations are a thing of the past. So, if the idiots want to protest and walk around with a mask, go for it! I'm all for them making themselves our volunteer guinea pigs!

[jmg257]

116. Sounds like a plan! Let em dip their toes in 1st!

Idiots can let’s us know how it goes.

[DrToast]

6. I approve of opening things up slowly and seeing how they go

Ideally, I would prefer an effective test and trace program like South Korea is doing, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.

Opening things up slowly seems to be the best way to go.

[murielm99]

8. Look to the states who are planning phased,

sensible reopenings based on flattening or lowering the curve of new cases. Some of those states will close again if things get out of hand. New York and Illinois have good plans.

We are talking about deaths here. I can never forget that.

[brooklynite]

11. I've seen people here criticize the re-opening plans for NY, NJ and CT

[murielm99]

16. You can't please everyone.

I understand what you are saying. I live in an agricultural area, but we have a lot of tourism here, too. We have beautiful parks and camp grounds.

I just read a newspaper article about a wonderful business that I frequent. They are going out of business after 31 years. It breaks my heart.

We all know each other around here, and every business failure and death is personal.

[Sukee]

20. Big-Ups to Brooklyn!

From Linden Blvd myself, so let me say this. As a NYer, we understand being the epicenter. The open up and see sh*** is insulting to healthcare workers! They are tired! They are overworked, underpaid, and under-appreciated. To not understand by opening up too early, you put them BACK IN THE THROWS OF WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DECREASE IS AN INSULT! It's analogous to saying, "I know you just left that raging fire, but I sent my son in there to get something. Can you go get him?" Really? Really? More respect should be given to those healthcare workers. Give them a break! If not, then get on the damn frontlines with them!

[jimfields33]

46. New York city's Not opening

[Sukee]

113. No, only the Finger Lakes, Mohawk Valley, and near Lake Ontario

....because travel is never considered to and fro those places, right? Those ARE NOT sparsely populated areas. I lived there for over 7 years! You will have tourists from OTHER parts of NY. Folks are forgetting how the virus got here. Through transmission! Opening those parts will not stop the virus from going in or an infected person from coming out.

[John Fante]

25. 40,000 dead just in those three states. Re-opening should be

a touchy subject there.

[LizBeth]

45. Washington and Oregon are doing excellent work, too

[yortsed snacilbuper]

13. Personally,

I'm staying hunkered down for the duration!

I know that's not an option for blue collar workers though.

Re-open and die, stay closed and starve, tough choice?

[LeftInTX]

14. Most retail is OK, if social distance is maintained etc (25%)

Restaurants: Curbside, carryout, outdoor seating. (25% capacity)
Parks/Beaches/Golf If social distance is maintained

Meat Packing: I have no idea. It sounds like the work conditions are too crowded without PPE and that needs to be fixed.

Gyms: Not now
Salons...maybe in a month or so...

[Ms. Toad]

23. Too soon -

If cases are still increasing (as they are in most parts of the country) it is too soon to dramatically increase the risk of exposure - especially if it is not coupled with some teeth that require masks and shut things down if individuals/businesses do not comply.

[LeftInTX]

24. I agree...I was simplistic

[WhiskeyGrinder]

18. The very question highlights the immorality inherent in the system.

[Ms. Toad]

19. The conditions set out in the Federal reopening guidelines, plus mandatory masks.

AFTER a state has had 14 days of declining new cases (at least on average) THEN it can move into Phase I (elective medical procedures, for example).

Keep testing and AFTER a state has had a second 14 days of declining new dases THEN it can move into Phase II (which includes most non-personal contact retail businesses, manufacturing, etc. - as long as they can be carried out with social distancint)

Keep testing and AFTER a state has had a third 14 days of declining new cases THEN it an move into Phase III (which includes businesses that inherently require close personal contact for elective services and larger gathering)

Masks are mandatory, at least through the end of Phase II
If cases increase - try to identify hot spots/points of infection - and back off on those openings.

It's not that hard. But instead of moving through this 42-day phased reopening, states (including Ohio) are reopening without the wait and see what happens period - with tens of thousands more cases than when we started shutting down. And not requiring masks becase it hurts their widdle feelings.

That is suicide. Or murder, depending on the persepective.

[LeftInTX]

22. Good plan

[onecaliberal]

29. Except almost no state meets the criteria to go to step 1.

Last edited Sat May 16, 2020, 03:56 PM - Edit history (1)

Which is why we shouldn’t be proceeding.

[Ms. Toad]

82. Absolutely.

I completely agree.

[Igel]

48. That skips step 1.

Step 1 has to be determining what phase the area's starting out in.

If there's "moderate transmission" then they're already ahead of phase 1, even if they've never hit phase 0. It's not a ladder with rungs, it's set of bins that we sort things into. Think not so much hand-processing photographs, going from bath to bath, as candling and sorting eggs, where each egg gets evaluated on its own merits.

Also note that the CDC guidelines--they're guidelines--may say "moderate transmission" but that all by itself presupposes some hospitalization, which entails some deaths.

Sadly, there's no definition (that I noticed, at least) of "moderate". (If there is, message me.)

If you have 500 new cases yesterday, is that moderate?

What if your population is 300,000 versus 30 million? Does that change the meaning of the 500 cases?

What if 490 cases all happened in one small town? Does that change the verdict for a town 200 miles away with no cases for the last 3 weeks?

What if you administered 10,000 tests instead of the usual 1,000? Or 1,000 instead of the usual 10,000?

All the stats I have are cumulative. If they want to open TX, I don't care about cases or deaths in March or the first half of April. Divvy the stats up temporally--give me running numbers for the last 3 weeks, and include not just the positive tests but the total number of tests and the population count the sample's taken out of. (Also whether it's the result of screening or random.)

In fact, if they want to open Tomball, TX, I don't care about El Paso or Amarillo (at least for this purpose). First, divvy up the area into bite-sized pieces. (Which is what the guidelines say to do, with travel restrictions, not that this gets reflected in most gotcha OPs.)

[Ms. Toad]

81. No it doesn't skip that phase.

Opening is based on a new case trend. That is not a cumulative statistic - that depends on watching whether the infection rate is decreasing, increasing, or remaining static.

Before you move from where you are (wherever that is), the disease needs to be controlled enough that new cases are declining.

As for opening bite-sized pieces - you should care about other cities. It's a challenge whenever lines are drawn - but as Dr. Acton wisely pointed out - if you open up the rural areas in Ohio (because they have low rates of infection), people from the urban areas (where there is a high rate of infection) will flock to the the open areas and create high rates of infection there.

Travel restrictions don't work well, and they work particularly poorly within a state. For example, in an ordinary month I would circulate within 5 counties, which include 2-three distinct urban areas (depending on how you count them) and 1-2 rural areas.

[uponit7771]

63. +1

[OhioChick]

96. +1000 n/t

[Jersey Devil]

102. It pisses me off that Cooper in NC does not require masks

We call in our grocery orders at Harris Teeter and a few days later pick them up by a store employee putting them in our trunk at the store, so we don't go in, but I see the customers and employees going in and out of the store while waiting and only about 50% are wearing masks. Meanwhile NC does NOT meet CDC guidelines of Covid going down for 2 weeks as we reopen. Going to Lowes to get a new toilet valve is like entering a combat zone as very few wear masks. WTF!

[unblock]

21. Priority is to manage the pandemic, second priority is to address the costs

To manage the pandemic, there should be a strict lockdown until the virus is largely contained. No community infection, only spread through identifiable contacts.

Then you reopen with precautions in areas where massive testing and contact tracing can be done. Shut down households with known cases and their contacts.

Those who temporarily lose income should get government support to compensate for the financial hardship. Not so much blue/white collar necessarily, really anyone out income, particularly below some reasonable threshold.

So far there have direct payments and mortgage payment suspensions and maybe a few other things.

I like the proposal for $2,000 per month, though I don't think people whose income isn't affected should get this. In practice, maybe everyone below a certain income gets it, and it gets taxed back next April for those whose income went up.

[DBoon]

28. There are 85,000 dead people who won't be coming back

How many more must die?

[unblock]

39. Did you mean this in reply to my post?

[smirkymonkey]

73. +1000

I agree, sounds logical. However at this point, there is still no Federal Plan for managing this. Trump just wants to stick his head in the sand and pretend it is all going to go away before the election because that is what he wishes to happen. He is doing fuck-all to take charge of the situation and manage it like a real, competent president would and should.

We could not have a worse administration in charge during this time than we do now. State and local governments can only do so much, particularly when the Federal government is thwarting their efforts at every turn by confiscating PPE and threatening to allow them to go bankrupt. It is a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Instead of bailing out large corporations and tax cuts, money should be going into the hands of those who are out of work and to small businesses who need a lifeline to stay afloat. I am so disgusted by the grifting and mismanagement of this crisis by the Trump administration I honestly can't understand why we can't remove him for gross negligence and intentional death and destruction. It's infuriating.

[unblock]

79. Indeed. There's a reason we're doing worse than nearly every other country.

Russia is trying to catch up due to somewhat similar reasons.

And Brazil is not far behind.

Again, similar reasons.

[tblue37]

31. We aren't testing, tracing, or isolating, so it isn't an either-or question. Too many

are also still crowding up and not wearing masks.

There are responsible and irresponsible ways of opening up.

I doubt we'll see a vaccine soon--if ever. But we could see better treatments that save lives.

[empedocles]

32. Tricky business. Last night my party of 5 went to a local restaurant, no

masks behind the counter, near empty restaurant - we left. Went to a local chain, all staff had masks, we did takeout. Lil more than 1/2 the patrons had masks, none of the patrons [all takeout], looked happy at the situation/

[DBoon]

34. How many people do you propose to allow to suffocate to death of Covid 19

as an acceptable cost of re-opening businesses? We already have over 85,000 deaths, how many more are ethically acceptable?

Any opening strategy will result in further spread of a deadly infection for which we have no effective treatment.

How many should be allowed to die? Would you be willing to be one of those? Why not? Is it because someone else's death is acceptable but not yours?

What do we say to the family and loved ones who died so the economy can open? Do the dead get a posthumous medal for their sacrifice, as we do with members of the military who give their lives for their country or do we just say "too bad, I'm alive and you aren't"?

The phrasing of the question as "under what conditions should businesses re-open" completely evades the ethical issue of killing tens of thousands of people in the process.

I find it absolutely horrific that we are speaking in these terms. I cannot believe we have come to this.

WE ARE ACCEPTING THE DEATH OF TENS OR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVING PEOPLE TO AVOID "A HUGE BURDEN ON SMALL BUSINESSES AND THE WORKING CLASS". WHAT KIND OF MORAL MONSTER CAN EVEN SUGGEST THIS?

[onecaliberal]

36. :

[brooklynite]

47. Tell us, what did you have for dinner last night?

Did you starve yourself, or did you eat food that someone had to farm, process, stock and sell?

[LanternWaste]

85. You certainly avoid answering the implicit cost benefit your entire argument is predicated on.

I get it... when we try to look clever, we far more often (and unwittingly) adverting a measure of character we would otherwise not have seen or witnessed.

[Kaleva]

92. We buy from places that are open. You asked about bushiness that are currently closed.

[brooklynite]

97. The other businesses are closed by Government order, while stories and food production are open...

Someone's already decided that 100% protection isn't possible.

[kcr]

118. 100% protection isn't possible

Therefore no protection is warranted. Right-wing, Trumpian logic.

[Kaleva]

121. You probably agree with Gov. Whitmer's plan on reopening the state of Michigan.

[jmg257]

54. Everyone homesteading to survive...love it!

That way everyone can stay home.

[EX500rider]

70. Most of don't want to end up living under a bridge with our families...

...eating out of dumpsters, so we have to go back to work or lose everything. Virus or not.

[waterwatcher123]

37. This is Great Question -

The best bet might be to provide something akin to universal basic income to everyone who needs it through the duration of this pandemic. At least with that safety net, folks will not be forced into a situation where it is a choice between economic survival and exposure to a deadly and highly contagious virus. People who receive basic income support will spend the money. So, it seems like a better strategy than to provide financial support for businesses that may or may not survive (especially those businesses that have been engaged in stock buy back programs to boost stock dividends for management - United Airlines would be a good example).

We could also up the game substantially on COVID-19 testing to make sure we know who has immunity to the virus. Perhaps these folks could be encouraged to serve temporarily in positions where they are front line providers of a variety of services in hospitals, transit, food management or in locations where they are exposed regularly to potential virus carriers. Likewise, extremely vulnerable populations could be identified and provided with a higher level of protection until a vaccine is developed (quarantined for longer periods of time, provided with basic services).

It is impossible to do this question justice in a few short paragraphs. However, it would help with social cohesion if we actually had this type of discussion. It appears that the exact same issues came up during the 1918-1919 Spanish Flu pandemic. People were extremely tired of the quarantine in places like San Francisco. So, they were given a reprieve for their good work in social distancing, only to have the virus return with a vengeance the second year. We lost approximately 675,000 people to the Spanish Flu when our population was about 100 million people. Hopefully we have learned something from history and do not have to go through that experience again.

[MichMan]

40. Where will people spend the UBI money if all businesses remain shut down?

What happens when people at the essential jobs decide they would just as soon collect the UBI themselves rather than going to work every day?

[DrToast]

59. Great questions

[LanternWaste]

87. It's rather convenient to shoot down the ideas of others as bad

when we are bankrupt of them ourselves.

[USALiberal]

104. Your un-credited C.S.Lewis quote is incorrect! nt

[waterwatcher123]

88. Another really good question - maybe we should develop a citizen's guide to the pandemic?

You are right that folks who are at risk or who lack adequate protection might opt out of working in an essential business for the UBI subsidy. This is where testing is so critical since it might identify people who can work without fear of contracting the virus (they still have to be careful about transmitting it to someone else). I think these essential employees should get the UBI in addition to their standard salary or wages. It would be the equivalent of hazard pay.

The federal budget is clearly going to take a hit with these payments. However, it will take an even more severe hit if folks can not afford to sustain themselves through this crisis. In my view, this is not the time to worry about the federal deficit. If we can help keep everyone afloat during this pandemic, it will also prevent the economy from tumbling into a severe recession or depression. Once we get out of this hole, the improved tax receipts can help pay down the federal debt.

By-the-way, there were lots of great ideas that were generated by everyone (would be nice to capture them in some way).

[samnsara]

41. Im staying inside no matter what...Hubby has to work in the public but he feels....

..adequately protected so hes giving me the chance to stay home and he can purchase any needed items from work. None of my family have lost their jobs, but my grand dtr will miss her HS graduation ceremonies

I will stay inside and only venture out if absolutely necessary and I will be gloved and masked up. I will do this until there is a REAL vaccine..not trump*s snake oil. Also I'm getting a flu shot for the first time!

So no more dining out for us, no more wine bars, theaters, art galleries or public gatherings of ANY kind including mass transportation.

Years ago we talked about this scenario and already had a plan..

I'm mega cleaning and de-mousing the attached garage and making room for necessities and not all the junque I thought I would 'use someday'. I've taken a lot of my Grandmothers beautiful 'antiques' to Goodwill. I have a feeling this is gonna get a lot worse before it gets better.

I'm blessed that I can do this. I have lots of land and lots of resources to rely on...but my heart breaks for those stuck inside a small apt with small kids and pets...and maybe a business that's suffering.

I don't know how I can help them.. and there's somewhat of a survivors guilt. SO if a biz has to open I guess thats what they have to do.....who am I to judge their situation. I hope they survive... on all fronts.

[LizBeth]

42. There has to be a place for those of us in an unprotected place, in vulnerable position to not

be placed in that environment and yet still get unemployment. My Gov seems to have done that in a part of her phase one opening. Will see if employees agree.

You cannot ask people to walk into an environment, not protected, or starve.

Because the Federal gov has done a shitty job and lost these two months and more that we could have gotten a lot more done to protect the people, should not mean the people have to just suck it up and die.

[Bradshaw3]

43. Good questions and no easy answers

I wish we had a system that provided for all our citizens and we had an adminstration that cared about people, and an economic system that didn't rely on greed as its driving force. But we have none of those and we have to eat, have power, etc. I think the best we can do is look at the problem regionally and locally - for instance should the three counties in northern California that have zero COVID cases be under the same restrictions as LA county? NY is opening by region which seems like a good idea.

Americans in 2020 aren't like those who faced the Great Depression. Many are spoiled and can't see beyond their own need for self-gratification. So there's that to deal with also. But we have to have an economy if we want to fund schools, police, firefighters, Social Security, etc. from taxes So, what is the answer? The only one I know for sure is to get that asshole in the WH and his spineless cronies in the Senate out of office. That is the only long-term solution to this problem.

[Blue_true]

49. Re-open with mandatory wearing of approved masks over the nose

and mouth when in public places, government or private. When I say approved, any mask in use must be capable of stopping transmission of at least 70% of shed particles above a certain size, that size should approximate a coronavirus particle.

People that violate the mask wearing order will be given a warning and have their name, home address and identifying documents like driver's license entered into a "violation" database. If they are found not wearing a mask on public a second time, the would be fined $500 and if they don't pay up within 60 days, they would be jailed for 30 days.

I know the "civil" Liberty warriors are going to go off, I really don't give a shit. People have a right not to be made sick by thoughtless assholes, it is just a matter of whose liberties you chose to side with.

[mokawanis]

51. Rev. Barber's Poor People's Campaign calls for resistance to reopening plans

https://www.ncronline.org/news/coronavirus/rev-barbers-poor-peoples-campaign-calls-resistance-reopening-plans

[Hugin]

52. Let's do a little of the back of the envelope math...

Which seems to be so popular these days.

Here's an alternative proposal to save the economy:

Have the US hire every working class American for a year to stay home, wear a mask, not catch, and/or spread the COVID virus.

The cost? Well, here's where the math comes in...

A guesstimate for the number of so-called working class citizens would be, approximately: 100,000,000. That's probably somewhat high, but, in the ballpark.

Now, let's say we give each of those hard working (because, apparently, staying home and not toting your guns down to the state house is fricking hard work), Americans $2000/month as a salary. Pretty generous.

So, if you take 100,000,000 times 2000 times 12. You get $2.4 Trillion for a years worth of time.

Wait! Before you start running around in tiny circles screaming, you must realize that almost that exact amount was already passed through Congress without them batting so much as an eye for the corporate COVID bailouts only a month or so ago. And what happened to it... I don't know.

The US is a very wealthy nation and if it can afford to throw that kind of money to the top of the economic food chain, it can surely afford to throw it to the bottom.

[jmg257]

53. Lets make it $4000 a month...tax free, more like it and worth a year off.

[Hugin]

62. Of course, tax free.

As an added bonus... Those who hold 'essential', but, not directly health care provider (they'll be well taken care of in a future fantasy) positions and are working; stockpersons, clerks, meat plant workers, bag peeps, cart sanitizers, etc. Get to keep their regular salary and bonuses (also tax free) on top of the Govt salary as added compensation for their work under very stressful conditions.

[rgbecker]

72. Thank you, Hugin.

Your 100 million is high, but the simplicity shines through.

[pnwmom]

56. My strategy is to push MASK WEARING. It's outrageous that the R's are pushing re-opening

at the same time they're fighting masks.

[EllieBC]

58. I agree. But that was screwed up.

Initially when the medical experts said masks weren’t effective. Then they were, but not for the wearer.

They should have just said, “masks are effective for the wearer and others but we have a supply issue so cloth is ok too!” from DAY 1. None of this “they won’t help you!”. None of this “wear them for others”.

Just: wear a mask. Even homemade. It’ll help you and everyone.

[pnwmom]

65. Yes, they screwed that up. But I also blame Trump. He didn't want to wear them or have

his team wear them because he viewed them as a sign of weakness.

[Crunchy Frog]

57. How would Obama have dealt with it?

That's my standard right now.

[uponit7771]

64. +1

[JonLP24]

60. A big time donor worried about the working class

I will listen to experts and opening up too soon can backfire.

[Demonaut]

75. wearing a mask, washing my hands and trying to be responsible for others lives

[Hekate]

76. Schools & day care centers. As for workers, already there are workers being give the "choice" ...

...of returning to work in unsafe conditions, or homelessly starving to death.

As for the money to pay for restoration, Moscow Mitch and pals have made sure to spend a trillion dollars on the yacht and penthouse class. Now they can look around in amazement and ask how we can be so selfish as to demand help for those who need it most when all the money is gone.

I have no idea where this is all going, but it ain't good.

[ancianita]

80. I'd use Governor Cuomo's re-opening standards.

https://img.particlenews.com/image.php?type=thumbnail_512x288&url=1AhZLN_0Osfd8bA00

https://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.44234679.1588116447!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_768/image.jpg

This will put jobs and consumer spending back into the nation. A changed nation.

[JI7]

83. The Republicans demanding everything open up don't care about Safety Measures

They aren't suggesting any new ways of doing business to make things safer.

In fact they oppose wearing masks and taking these safety measures.

There ARE businesses working on opening up in ways that would be as safe as possible for employees and customers. It's not as simple as just opening up .

[Tink41]

86. The Pandemic Plan

Every country had a pandemic plan in place. If we were following ours there would be a monthly income being given. That paltry 1200 was a joke. This idea that any Congresscritter came up with this out of the blue sky, sadly mistaken . EVERY COUNTRY!! I'm getting so f'in tired of no one being aware of this at all. Especially on here. It was posted HERE on this website sometime in early March.

[tanyev]

89. TESTING. Quick, accurate testing widely available.

All the PPE healthcare and essential workers need. Masks and disinfectant wipes widely available for public to buy. Everybody wearing masks in public. Continue social distancing as much as possible.

[Kaleva]

91. I know people who are positively thrilled about the unemployment plus $600/week they are getting

It's more money then they ever made in their lives.

[Kaleva]

93. Gov. Whitmer of Mi. has always said science will determine how and when the state opens back up

"Here’s Gov. Whitmer’s 6 Phase Plan To Reopen Michigan"

https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2020/05/15/heres-gov-whitmers-6-phase-plan-to-reopen-michigan/

[MichMan]

106. What science and data said lottery and recreational marijuana were essential?

How many infections and deaths were considered acceptable, so people could gamble and get high?

What science and data was used to make that determination?

[Kaleva]

120. Recreational marijuana stores are closed.

But they can offer curbside pickup.

"Customers can either place their orders online or right in the parking lot of the dispensary, where they can wait inside their vehicles. A licensed employee will complete the sale in the parking lot, validate the customer information and record the necessary information into the statewide monitoring system. "

https://wwjnewsradio.radio.com/articles/news/michigan-marijuana-retailers-go-curbside-during-coronavirus

Recreational cannabis stores, like restaurants, are deemed non-essential but can offer curbside service.
Lottery tickets can still be bought at bushiness such as grocery stores, gas stations, hardware stores, that have been deemed essential.

You should know that Gov. Whitmer's orders were never about certain products. it's about limiting human contact and reducing the spread of COVID-19.

[MoonlitKnight]

94. It's the lack of leadership

Coupled with the lack of an implemented strategy to test, trace and isolate any outbreaks.

It was this lack of leadership that caused the lockdown to begin with. Continued failure will just lead to another lockdown and more death and economic damage.

Leadership means being an example in stressing the need to take precautions such as masks, social distancing and proper infection control procedures. It also means making science based decisions.

We all have to be in this together for it to work.

[spinbaby]

95. Here's what I would do

The best way to virtually eliminate this virus is a complete shutdown for a couple of weeks. I would announce a shutdown, send everyone in the country funds to get through the shutdown, give them a window to get supplies, and then everyone except absolutely essential workers stays home. At the end of two weeks those absolutely essential workers stay home for their two weeks. If you give people support and an end date, we can have a national shutdown instead of this vague indefinite shutdown.

[brooklynite]

98. Where are you getting food during a "complete shutdown"?

Are you assuming you'll have power (and internet) during this period?

[JI7]

99. there would be essential workers

[brooklynite]

101. ...then it's not a "complete shutdown"

[spinbaby]

100. That's why the window to get supplies

And emergency deliveries for people not able to stock up for two weeks. It can be done.

[Brainfodder]

105. Why are you asking for this?

I refuse to write the dissertation sized reply to aptly cover this?

However, nutshell edition:

Drive thru checking/testing available in all major metro areas?

Management not sucking on purpose?

All the sensible things?

The end.

[Steelrolled]

119. Politics has infected the pandemic

And of course there are political sides to the re-opening of businesses. This complicates having an opinion, because as you mention governors are not always playing their part.

[Raine]

122. My feelings exactly and I have the same question 🤔

what is the strategy ... Thank you for posting this.