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What do the 58K Americans dead in the Vietnam War have in common with the 58K dead from COVID-19? (Original Post) ehrnst Apr 2020 OP
Afraid of one and turned his back on the other donkeypoofed Apr 2020 #1
58,000 plus dead in 2 months versus 10 plus years.... ProudMNDemocrat Apr 2020 #2
Exactly what I was going to point out SCantiGOP Apr 2020 #8
GREAT MINDS think alike. ProudMNDemocrat Apr 2020 #10
At this rate by November a total 1/4 million Americans will be dead if it only continues apace NotHardly Apr 2020 #17
The earliest date on the Wall is October 21, 1957 dflprincess Apr 2020 #28
K & R...for truth...nt Wounded Bear Apr 2020 #3
Perfect tiptonic Apr 2020 #7
+1000000 K&R crickets Apr 2020 #4
Some of the Covid 19 victims probably LakeVermilion Apr 2020 #5
A lot of them from the same generation nitpicker Apr 2020 #6
Yes, far too many Vets. FailureToCommunicate Apr 2020 #19
and the expected trolls are mysteriously absent here DBoon Apr 2020 #32
Let's not forget the Korean War vets (and the WWII ones) nitpicker Apr 2020 #9
The Korean War total has been surpast already - 54,209 in three years. sarge43 Apr 2020 #13
AND they had to cancel the Korean War Veterans Association 70th anniversary activities nitpicker Apr 2020 #27
History shows Vietnam didn't have to happen....at all ashredux Apr 2020 #11
Just looked back over Daniel Ellsberg's Pentagon Papers... FailureToCommunicate Apr 2020 #21
I was in the Army, 101st/70-73. Got lucky stayed in country ashredux Apr 2020 #23
That IS lucky. I was I-A, then, that terrible night of the lottery, half the kids were unlucky... FailureToCommunicate Apr 2020 #24
Wow! That night everyone got drunk...either happy as hell or depressed as hell ashredux Apr 2020 #26
True, but we were miserable for those around us who drew low, death sentence numbers. FailureToCommunicate Apr 2020 #29
It was life changing in many ways..... ashredux Apr 2020 #30
Right on point! nt iluvtennis Apr 2020 #12
That is as right as it gets JDC Apr 2020 #14
That's gotta hurt bucolic_frolic Apr 2020 #15
Pow! Slam! Bang! Pepsidog Apr 2020 #16
It's not just the orange one that turned a back on the causalities, Hotler Apr 2020 #18
What they have in common is that most of them have died without family at their sides, majdrfrtim Apr 2020 #20
Oh it burns..... flying_wahini Apr 2020 #22
How do you say OUCH in Vietnamese! sandensea Apr 2020 #25
President Johnson declined to run for reelection IronLionZion Apr 2020 #31
He never regretted Vietnam former9thward Apr 2020 #33
Humphrey was his VP so it's not like he would endorse Nixon IronLionZion Apr 2020 #34
Not to belabor this but by the time of the November, 1972 election the war was effectively over. former9thward Apr 2020 #35
Yep, that very thing led to Nixon falling in the polls, along with him refusing to participate ehrnst Apr 2020 #40
He understood he could not win, that the war was unpopular, & he could not make peace while running ehrnst Apr 2020 #38
He made mistakes, yes - but achieved civil rights and health care for those who had none ehrnst Apr 2020 #36
He's directly responsible for my existence in this world IronLionZion Apr 2020 #37
I agree. I don't think Bobby Kennedy would have won, either. ehrnst Apr 2020 #39

donkeypoofed

(2,187 posts)
1. Afraid of one and turned his back on the other
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 06:37 PM
Apr 2020

Too bad he couldn't turn his back on his fear, but.alas, he is too weak.

NotHardly

(1,062 posts)
17. At this rate by November a total 1/4 million Americans will be dead if it only continues apace
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 08:08 PM
Apr 2020

... however, if it keeps going exponentially, that number will be closer to 1 million Americans dead while the Trump Administration, all his agency heads, and all the agencies DO NOTHING while they continue to steal equipment and protective gear from the states.

dflprincess

(28,079 posts)
28. The earliest date on the Wall is October 21, 1957
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 09:39 PM
Apr 2020

(a Captain who died in a training accident). The first combat casualties appear in 1959.

The last date is May 15, 1975.

LakeVermilion

(1,042 posts)
5. Some of the Covid 19 victims probably
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 07:17 PM
Apr 2020

survived their time in Viet Nam, only to die a horrible death here because Trump's mind never honored them.

DBoon

(22,367 posts)
32. and the expected trolls are mysteriously absent here
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 02:50 PM
Apr 2020

The ones who blame the boomer generation for all manner of policy failures including global warming.

nitpicker

(7,153 posts)
9. Let's not forget the Korean War vets (and the WWII ones)
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 07:23 PM
Apr 2020

That went through their own hell and back.

And at the end couldn't have their families around them when they died.

sarge43

(28,941 posts)
13. The Korean War total has been surpast already - 54,209 in three years.
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 07:53 PM
Apr 2020

That creature squatting in the WH has blood on his hands.

nitpicker

(7,153 posts)
27. AND they had to cancel the Korean War Veterans Association 70th anniversary activities
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 09:18 PM
Apr 2020

All concerned were going to put on One Last Grand Show ((as the youngest US vet should have been born about 1933-4)) in DC.

ashredux

(2,606 posts)
11. History shows Vietnam didn't have to happen....at all
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 07:46 PM
Apr 2020

We lost...now we buy T-shirts made there and vacation there as well

No one can tell me why anyone’s son needed to die there

FailureToCommunicate

(14,014 posts)
21. Just looked back over Daniel Ellsberg's Pentagon Papers...
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 08:23 PM
Apr 2020

Outrageous, and sickening lies and secrecy that allowed for the killing of thousands of my generation,
several of my close friends...

FailureToCommunicate

(14,014 posts)
24. That IS lucky. I was I-A, then, that terrible night of the lottery, half the kids were unlucky...
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 08:52 PM
Apr 2020

I drew 350.

Those years - what should have been the "best years of our lives"- totally sucked thanks to Kennedy, and mostly, Johnson and Nixon,

McNamara, et al.

Hotler

(11,425 posts)
18. It's not just the orange one that turned a back on the causalities,
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 08:15 PM
Apr 2020

the whole repug party turned a back, the kings of selfishness and their "I have mine, fuck the rest of you." crowd.

majdrfrtim

(318 posts)
20. What they have in common is that most of them have died without family at their sides,
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 08:22 PM
Apr 2020

though at least some in the former category may have died surrounded by their comrades-in-arms.

Also: Tragic, needless deaths, all.

IronLionZion

(45,454 posts)
31. President Johnson declined to run for reelection
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 02:40 PM
Apr 2020

out of regret for his terrible mistakes. That's another big difference.

former9thward

(32,023 posts)
33. He never regretted Vietnam
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 03:17 PM
Apr 2020

He withdrew because he didn't think he could win. He supported a pro-war candidate, Humphrey, to take his place.

IronLionZion

(45,454 posts)
34. Humphrey was his VP so it's not like he would endorse Nixon
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 03:41 PM
Apr 2020

in 1972 he endorsed McGovern, who opposed the war and wanted to end it.

Historians have debated his motivations.

I'll cherry pick this excerpt from his speech announcing it

It has not been easy—far from it. During the past 4 years, it has been my fate and my responsibility to be Commander in Chief. I have lived—daily and nightly—with the cost of this war. I know the pain that it has inflicted. I know, perhaps better than anyone, the misgivings that it has aroused.

https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/presidential-speeches/march-31-1968-remarks-decision-not-seek-re-election

former9thward

(32,023 posts)
35. Not to belabor this but by the time of the November, 1972 election the war was effectively over.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 05:42 PM
Apr 2020

The peace agreement was signed two months later in January, 1973 five days after LBJ died. I would expect a former Democratic president to endorse a Democratic candidate for president no matter what anyway.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
40. Yep, that very thing led to Nixon falling in the polls, along with him refusing to participate
Thu Apr 30, 2020, 10:04 AM
Apr 2020

debates.

Nixon was also trailing LBJ early on in the polls, so nominating someone closely aligned with LBJ would make sense.

The race between Nixon and HH wound up being very close, so there may have been something to that.

And yes, LBJ would have endorsed any eventual Democratic nominee.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
38. He understood he could not win, that the war was unpopular, & he could not make peace while running
Thu Apr 30, 2020, 09:28 AM
Apr 2020
Johnson had delivered plenty of significant addresses during his presidency, from vowing in 1964 to build a “Great Society” to pushing for the Voting Rights Act in 1965. None of them came with the stunning conclusion of the speech televised that evening from the White House.

With Americans growing weary of the Vietnam War and increasingly discontent with his leadership, Johnson — in his characteristically solemn style — reiterated why the United States was fighting there and offered an olive branch to North Vietnam. He announced a halt to air and naval attacks north of the area immediately above the demilitarized zone and urged the Communist government in Hanoi to enter peace talks.

“We are prepared to move immediately toward peace through negotiations,” the president said.

“I have concluded that I should not permit the presidency to become involved in the partisan divisions that are developing in this political year,” Johnson said. “With America’s sons in the fields far away, with America’s future under challenge right here at home, with our hopes and the world’s hopes for peace in the balance every day, I do not believe that I should devote an hour or a day of my time to any personal partisan causes, or to any duties other than the awesome duties of this office — the presidency of your country. Accordingly, I shall not seek, and will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your president.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/03/31/a-pearl-harbor-in-politics-lbjs-stunning-decision-not-to-seek-reelection/

Understanding when one's campaign will do more harm to the country than good to one's own ambitions is something we could use more of, not less. Humphrey was his VP, so it was natural that he thought Humphrey would be qualified and would oppose any attacks on his signature legislation. He did, however refuse to compromise on the party plank with those who opposed the war. Lack of ability to reasonably compromise doesn't bode well for any politicians efficacy - either in office or on the campaign trail.


Like FDR, his presidential legacy is complicated - he produced Medicare, Medicaid and the Great Society Legislation.

FDR did get our economy back on track, and expanded government programs, but turned away thousands of Jews to their deaths because of anti-semitism, and incarcerated Asians.

There will never be a progressive politician with a spotless record, at least not one who was effective.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
36. He made mistakes, yes - but achieved civil rights and health care for those who had none
Thu Apr 30, 2020, 09:18 AM
Apr 2020

Last edited Thu Apr 30, 2020, 10:06 AM - Edit history (1)

Like FDR, his legacy is mixed with huge victories and horrible mistakes that took many lives.

LBJ didn't decide not to run out of regret, he decided to run because he thought he couldn't win. And he stated one could not be effectively trying to end a war while campaigning.

Johnson had delivered plenty of significant addresses during his presidency, from vowing in 1964 to build a “Great Society” to pushing for the Voting Rights Act in 1965. None of them came with the stunning conclusion of the speech televised that evening from the White House.

With Americans growing weary of the Vietnam War and increasingly discontent with his leadership, Johnson — in his characteristically solemn style — reiterated why the United States was fighting there and offered an olive branch to North Vietnam. He announced a halt to air and naval attacks north of the area immediately above the demilitarized zone and urged the Communist government in Hanoi to enter peace talks.

“We are prepared to move immediately toward peace through negotiations,” the president said.

“I have concluded that I should not permit the presidency to become involved in the partisan divisions that are developing in this political year,” Johnson said. “With America’s sons in the fields far away, with America’s future under challenge right here at home, with our hopes and the world’s hopes for peace in the balance every day, I do not believe that I should devote an hour or a day of my time to any personal partisan causes, or to any duties other than the awesome duties of this office — the presidency of your country. Accordingly, I shall not seek, and will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your president.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/03/31/a-pearl-harbor-in-politics-lbjs-stunning-decision-not-to-seek-reelection/

IronLionZion

(45,454 posts)
37. He's directly responsible for my existence in this world
Thu Apr 30, 2020, 09:23 AM
Apr 2020

His immigration reform and Medicare allowed my doctor grandparents to immigrate to America.

Indeed, things were looking bleak in 1968 with the Democratic Party deeply divided over various important issues including the war and civil rights. I doubt any Democrat could have won that year.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
39. I agree. I don't think Bobby Kennedy would have won, either.
Thu Apr 30, 2020, 09:58 AM
Apr 2020

He was charismatic, passionate and inspiring, however, the things he participated in behind the scenes with his brother, in his less than popular actions, such as the Bay of Pigs invasion would have come out much sooner. I'm sure that organized crime would have been more than happy to be working against his victory, as Russia was with HRC.

The JFK gloss didn't always guarantee victory for his brothers.

There was also the backlash against all of the civil rights victories of the LBJ administration - LBJ himself stated, "Democrats have lost the South forever," about signing the Civil Rights act - a precursor to the backlash against eight years of a Black man in the White House.

Bobby was making it clear he would take those policies even further forward.

The 1968 race between Humphrey and Nixon wound up being very close.


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