When a president's personality disorder becomes lethal

[G_j]

Last edited Sun Apr 26, 2020, 10:30 PM - Edit history (1)

https://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/when-a-presidents-personality-disorder-becomes-lethal/27940/

I have a psychologist friend who once told me that she will not treat a narcissist. Specifically, she will “refer out” a patient suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). She gave me the clinical reason first. They are a waste of time. When the NPD enters therapy he or she does so, not with the intent of becoming a better person, but as a game, with the goal of beating the therapist and “proving they [the narcissist] are the smartest person in the room.” For the narcissist, therapy isn’t a journey, it’s a zero sum game in which they must always be the winner.

Then she gave the non-clinical reason: “I dislike them. If it can be said there is a kind of person I hate on sight then it’s the NPD. I have nothing to say to them except, ‘Goodbye.’”

—

Since about 1% of the population is NPD, chances are fairly good that you have met one. If you’ve been particularly unlucky, as I have been, then an NPD has exercised significant influence over your life. In that way the people of the United States of America have been particularly unlucky these days. The president is a narcissist, and We the People are subjected to daily gaslighting, compliments of Donald Trump.

A mistake often made by victims of the narcissist is they believe that they can bring the narcissist to see reason. This creates in the victim a tendency to concede minor points in order to make a major one. It might come in the form of the victim saying, for example, “Okay, I concede you were not trying to be deliberately cruel by your remarks, but can you understand how you might have been accidentally cruel?” These concessions, made a little bit at a time, are seized upon by the narcissist and used against the victim as weapons. The narcissist may later say something like, “What do you mean by that? You said it yourself once, that I’m not cruel. Were you lying?” Trump frequently uses small concessions or retractions or admissions of error made by the press as weapons against them.



..more..

[Rorey]

1. Good article, and dead on

Anyone who thinks that OrangeAss will ever show any remorse, or even ever admit that he's wrong, will have a long wait.

[Laelth]

2. I think that 1 in every 8 humans suffers from a Cluster B personality disorder.

It’s vastly more common than we think. In a class of 24 students, for example, 3 probably suffer from a Cluster B personality disorder.

They get worse as they get older. Trump is just an advanced case. What makes him particularly destructive is the fact that he is the President of the United States.

-Laelth

[philly_bob]

4. You introduced a new term, Laelth. Cluster B personality disorders.

I had to look it up:

[link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_B_personality_disorders|

I gather Narcissistic P.D. is a subset of Cluster B.

1 in 8? Wow!

[captain queeg]

5. I skipped down to treatment and didn't sound like there was any medical treatment

No drug therapy at least though some symptoms might be treated. Maybe they could just load the dumbass up with Valium so he’d never come out of his bedroom.

[Laelth]

8. There is no treatment.

Their condition is genetic and hardwired. They don’t think that there’s anything wrong with the way that they behave. It is easier for them to assume that the WHOLE WORLD is wrong than it is for them to admit that they may be wrong. They can not be cured. They don’t want to be cured. They can not be helped—only avoided.

-Laelth

[Eyeball_Kid]

10. It doesn't have to be genetic to be hardwired. AND, the "genetic" factor regarding NPD,

if I can recall correctly, is not a certainty. It's an hypothesis.

The "hardwired" part may be similar to how severe trauma affects very young people, who's biochemical and neurological systems are altered in response to incidents perceived to be life threatening, for example. How we do agree is that NPD is not treatable. That's what we have with Trump: an unchangeable, destructive madman who WILL continue to destroy anything in his path for as long as he has the power to do so. It won't stop with a crisis, or a severely embarrassing event, or anything else. He will have to be forcibly removed from office. He will not go quietly. An electoral defeat will mean nothing to him.

By all accounts, Trump's early development was not normal. He was born into a family of unusual parents. His father was not particularly engaged with the children. There may have been biographers who've already sussed this stuff out, but I'd venture a good guess that Trump was severely emotionally damaged during development.

[Laelth]

12. Emotional abuse DOES NOT CAUSE Cluster B personality disorders.

If it did, I would have one.

I am of the minority opinion that these personality disorders are entirely genetic. No. This hasn’t been “proven,” but even the most hard-headed and ridiculous psychologists agree that there must be a genetic component to these disorders because far too many people suffer from emotional abuse and DON’T acquire them.

-Laelth

[RobinA]

29. No Psychologist

is going to say that abuse does not cause cluster B traits because if it did everyone ever abused would have a personality disorder. That’s like saying smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer because my father lived to be 83 and didn’t have lung cancer when he died. Everyone abused does NOT have a personality disorder.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

31. Thank you

I get frustrated when people blame being abused for creating b personalities. I'm not one and I had cluster b parents. I have damage and it's not cluster b. Stop saying abused people turn into npd assholes. We hurt enough.

[Laelth]

33. I am SO with you on this. n/t

-Laelth

[Crunchy Frog]

38. BPD is strongly linked with childhood sexual abuse.

I have a sister who almost certainly has it, and was severely abused as a child.

I don't believe that she was born that way, and I don't believe she would have turned out that way without the trauma.

She's not someone that I can even interact with, but I don't buy that she's just inherently a bad seed.

That doesn't mean that I think all abuse victims will turn out that way, but I definitely think it plays a role for some people.

It's not all black and white, and these are real people that we're talking about.

[Laelth]

42. Sorry. I think that theory is crap.

Your sister may or may not have BPD. If she does, I think it’s because she inherited it (most likely from the very people who abused her). The abuse didn’t cause the disorder. The people from whom she got her genetic code were abusers. Now, she is too. She came by it naturally.

Too many people suffer from immense emotional abuse and DON’T acquire Cluster B personality disorders for me to believe that emotional abuse actually CAUSES Cluster B personality disorders.

-Laelth

[Crunchy Frog]

46. No, nothing to do with getting raped starting at age five.

By a non-relative family member. (We were a blended family. She was not abused by any genetic relative.)

You believe whatever you like. You be as judgemental as you like towards five year old victims of rape who turn out badly.

I won't discuss this with you anymore.

[RobinA]

25. Disagree About

the hardwired. I believe they are created or learned, most likely with genetic risk involved.

[Laelth]

34. That's the mainstream opinion.

I vehemently disagree.

-Laelth

[Haggis for Breakfast]

9. I suppose a lobotomy is out of the question.

But, valium is nothing. It might depress him, but once he came of it, he would return to being the same jerk he's always been.

Now, thorozine is another story.

[Laelth]

13. Even if prescribed, he wouldn't take the meds.

They seldom do. They think they’re fine. It’s the rest of the world that is screwed up, from their perspective.

-Laelth

[Haggis for Breakfast]

17. . . . taze his ass . . .

[LiberalFighter]

20. Unless you tell him uv light or disinfectant will cure him?

[I_UndergroundPanther]

32. I'd rather give them arsinic shots.

Or benzene something that would shut them down forever.

[Traildogbob]

16. Sure there is a cure

Inject Clorox, Shove a 4 foot UV light Up his fat ass and take 3 of the Lupus/Melania pills daily he bought with our taxes. What would he have to lose. MAGA! I’m not a doctor but I have a really good....you know.

[Laelth]

43. Yeah, but did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express? n/t

-Laelth

[LiberalFighter]

18. Trump would say otherwise.

He would suggest uv light, disinfectants.

[Laelth]

6. There are 4 DSM 5-recognized Cluster B disorders.

Last edited Sun Apr 26, 2020, 11:23 PM - Edit history (1)

1) Narcissistic Personality Disorder
2) Sociopathic/Psychopathic Personality Disorder
3) Histrionic Personality Disorder
4) Borderline Personality Disorder

If you ask me, they’re all the same in the ways that really matter. They are untreatable and incurable. They get worse as they get older. They are emotional infants—insecure, jealous, vindictive, selfish, lazy, mean, impulsive, and parasitic.

I also think that together—all 4 types—represent about 1 in every 8 humans. Their condition is genetic. That’s why it’s incurable. They are not “defective” in any way. For some reason that I can not fathom, their personalities are built into the human genome.

It is tragic that we have an old, advanced Cluster B-disordered person as our President.

-Laelth

[RobinA]

26. I Believe

a significant number of borderlines outgrow it. Or, perhaps they were misdiagnosed to begin with, as where I am, any female who ever scratched her wrist is diagnosed as one.

[Laelth]

39. I think that if you "outgrew" it, you were misdiagnosed.

In my experience, no Cluster B-disordeted person can “outgrow” the disorder. On the contrary, they all seem to get worse over time. President Trump is a perfect example of this phenomenon.

-Laelth

[True Blue American]

36. You are right

That they get worse as they get older. Some seem to cover better when they are young. It seems to be more pronounced as they get older and more desperate to control.

[Laelth]

40. Spot on. n/t

-Laelth

[PatrickforO]

44. So...cluster B? Is that like cluster-f**k?

Seriously, been a long time since I opened the DSM. It was DSMIII way back when...

[hunter]

51. With that high frequency in the gene pool there must be some evolutionary advantage in it.

I suspect it has to do with the success of warlike genocidal societies.

We live in such a society.

I believe it's possible to build a strong, peaceful, and just society that minimizes the harm caused by sociopaths.

The first step is recognizing the problem.

The history of the U.S.A. is far uglier than many of us care to admit. We frequently celebrate the "successful" military, sports, and business sociopaths. We make excuses for the less celebrated sociopaths who hurt so many people with their selfish games.

[H2O Man]

3. Recommended.

Narcissism is a feature of Trump's psychological profile. Erich Fromm coined the "malignant narcissism" that more correctly defines Trump. And that was Fromm's description of those known as sociopaths.

[G_j]

53. yes

and it clearly describes why we continue to experience that terrible sinking feeling that it can only get worse.

[elleng]

7. the Cabinet should/must invoke

Amendment 25, Section 4.
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxxv

[Lock him up.]

23. Too many yes-men/yes-women aroud the creatuRe.

Like on the tape: See the guy he asks if he will "test that" (injecting disinfectant) and he says yes twice, while he should have said that's crazy, you're going to cause more unnecessary deaths.

[elleng]

35. Damn right.

We've lost our way.

[yaesu]

11. repukes don't care who is in office just as long as he's a useful idiot nt

[Rebl2]

14. Yep

That says it all, sadly.

[mokawanis]

15. I worked at a psychiatric hospital for many years

and I only knew a few truly clinically narcissistic people. I am convinced that Trump is also one. He truly believes he's smarter than everyone. Smarter and better and more deserving of power, wealth, all the best things in life. No insight whatsoever. He's dangerous and unstable, and he's damn sure not a genius. He's a self-absorbed prick and a fool and he thinks he's perfect.

[Laelth]

19. Yep. You nailed him. n/t

-Laelth

[I_UndergroundPanther]

21. I wish

Narcissism,psychopathy and authoritarians were wiped off the face of the planet forever.

0 dark triad survivors.

[Paula Sims]

22. I am a survivor of an NPD relationship and it is devastating

I am happily married and have close friends of both genders. I believe in people and forgive to a fault -- and fight to keep relationships going. "Joe" (not his real name) was just a friend but he had me believing he was a loner , a geek, and just awkward. I wanted to be his friend, his confidant, his buddy. We enjoyed having conversations with each other and knew each other since 2006. In 2011 he moved across the country but we kept in touch. I am happily married and both Joe and my husband knew of each other.

Because Joe lived across the country and we didn't see each other except for our business trips, we kept in touch through texts. He told me he wanted to keep his work life and his personal life separate and I respected that. I usually initiated and put up with blowing me off when I was in town. I chalked it up to his awkwardness.

Then suddenly Joe died last summer. He just turned 58 (afib heart attack). We had a major argument a few months before but managed to become civil. I saw him around the office about 2 hours before he died. That's when everything was revealed...

His former girlfriend contacted me about 2 weeks after his death. A girlfriend I never knew about although they had lived together for 2+ years and dated for 4. She and I got together, along with Joe's sister, and pieced together a complex person that was seriously mentally disturbed.

We were shocked at the lies, the lovers, the lives he led. And damn he was good. We knew he was NPD diagnosed because he told me he was seeing a therapist and we saw the insurance billing in his apartment after we cleaned it out. What we didn't know is he was also DID -- disassociative identity disorder (aka multiple personalities) and anger issues (often comorbid with NPD). Seeing a therapist to an NPD person is just to learn how to be more normal, how to be better at the game. His mother is a narcissist so that was his impetus. Funny thing is, I was raised by a family of manipulative narcissists and my brother is one but I didn't see it. I am too much of an empath.

Since then I have learned terms such as flying monkeys, source, ghosting, golden child, love-bombing, scapegoating, gaslighting, supply, and trauma bond. Getting together with the gf and sister is the only thing that got me to heal, to learn the other facets of this man, to understand that I was a victim. I tried to keep the friendship going. To him, it was just a game. A game I never had a chance to win or even to compete fairly. I was lied to me every step for 15 YEARS. It will take a long time for my soul to heal -- my husband has been a wonderful support and my true friends, some of who are psychiatrists, are also helpful. It will take a while.

So narcissists are not jokes. They are dangerous. They eat at your soul. I never knew what a TRUE narc was until I looked back at what happened to me, how he played cat and mouse games with me. So why stay in those relationships? Why do the Trumpers do it? Because they get something out of it. They get validation. I got validation from Joe.

The dangers we are in are real. Covid is real. Narcissism is real. Neither are terms that should be tossed around nonchalantly. May the heavens helps us out. I know what it feels like and reality is devastating.

Thanks for letting me tell my story.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

28. Narcissists are monsters

I am so sorry you went through all that. I too have been abused by narcissists. I have damage from it.
I have PTSD and dissociative disorder.

Nowadays if I get even a whiff of narcissism off someone I flee and get so hypervilagent it's not funny.

I immediately drop all contact.

Because of the havok they caused in my life. It's like stepping next to a rattlesnake you jump away from it.

I hate the dark triad monsters and wish for them all to die. To stop them from hurting people.

[Paula Sims]

30. I too am sorry for you...

The sad part is, I have a tendency to be "overly friendly" so narc survivors think I am love- bombing them. That is repulsive. Joe had a narc mother and he was the golden child which then turned him into a narc.

Blessings to you. One day at a time.

[BComplex]

50. Hadn't heard of it, so looked it up on Wikipedia: Love-bombing

"Love bombing is an attempt to influence a person by demonstrations of attention and affection. It can be used in different ways and can be used for either a positive or negative purpose.

Members of the Unification Church of the United States (who coined the expression) use it to convey a genuine expression of friendship, fellowship, interest, or concern.[1] Psychologists have identified love bombing as a possible part of a cycle of abuse and have warned against it. Critics of cults use the phrase with the implication that the "love" is feigned and that the practice is psychological manipulation in order to create a feeling of unity within the group against a society perceived as hostile." - Wikipedia

Sounds like what Fox "news" uses to gather all the republicans together, but theirs is more like "hate-bombing" to make everyone hate anyone who isn't a member of the group.

[Laelth]

41. I feel you. n/t

-Laelth

[Grokenstein]

27. So he's a forum troll...with the nuclear football.

[uponit7771]

45. THIS !!!

[C Moon]

37. After reading that, I would guess that Mr. Carlin on the 70s Bob Newhart was supposed to be NPD.

[nolabear]

47. In my practice I don't think I ever had a narcissist just come in on their own.

I had some that were required to by the court, or an employer, or in couples therapy, that kind of thing. But your friend is exactly right. I don’t think I’ve ever had an outcome I felt okay about. Sometimes I felt that I was helping protect someone else but it’s a miserable experience all around.

[Grasswire2]

49. Nolabear, I have been reading the Johns Hopkins guide on "Poverty of Thought Disorder" and other..

....materials on the topic. Thought Disorder appears to be associated with schizophrenia, I read, and I wondered if NPD can be comorbid with schizophrenia. The disorder is measured by asking the pt to talk about rorschach images and evaluating the use of language and thoughts. All very interesting.

Clearly, in Trump's situation, drug addiction and dementia are also part of the stew.

[link:https://www.hopkinsguides.com/hopkins/view/Johns_Hopkins_Psychiatry_Guide/787025/all/Thought_Disorder|

[nolabear]

52. There are all kinds of thought disorders. It's easy to read things into papers.

That’s one reason we stay away from diagnosing from afar typically. I can’t even say 45 is definitely one thing or another though there are stereotypical symptoms of things he shows, and he’s seen so much and is being so consistent that it’s not hard to think he has certain things.

But if you’re asking re schizophrenia about him, no. It’s very different.

[nolabear]

55. That's kind of a tough one.

Thought disorders trump (apropos) quite a few comorbid disorders. They’re so overwhelming other dx can just take a back seat. How those disordered thoughts manifest might give some clues but there’s a wide range of manifestations. It takes a lot more than a Rorschach but they can be handy for giving concrete evidence of disordered thinking.

It’s a very big set of diagnostics. I wouldn’t venture an actual guess without a lot of evidence. Axis II often involves so much acting out in the diagnosis it’s a little easier to speculate. But again that’s all just musing one my part.

[G_j]

54. this

[Grasswire2]

48. the day my husband's business partner (a psychologist) told me my husband was NPD...

...was the day my life began to change for the better. Because I finally had an explanation (as I learned) for all the dysfunction and abuse and misery.