General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPurel hand sanitizer, 535 mL: $162.87
What a fascinating modern world we live in
marybourg
(12,631 posts)True Blue American
(17,984 posts)I heard the stores are out of Sanitizers.
Remember sugar, coffee,etc?
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)marybourg
(12,631 posts)but hand sanitizer has risen to tbe level of a panacea, causing hoarding and price gouging. Use of it should be restricted to those situations where soap and water is unattainable.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)In handwashing experiments with 21 volunteers, Rutgers University researchers found no significant difference in cleaning power between water that was 60, 79 or 100 degrees Fahrenheit. They also found that lathering hands for just 10 seconds was sufficient to remove germs.
Everyone in the study had high levels of a harmless strain of E. coli bacteria applied to their hands and were then asked to wash them in a variety of scenarios: using cold, warm or hot water; using between half a milliliter and 2 milliliters of soap; and washing for various lengths of time, between 5 and 40 seconds. They repeated these tests several times over six months.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)and my state say 20 seconds, not 10.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)You spend maybe $10 total and get 2 times the protection. Wipe your hands with the alcohol, let your hands air dry, put lotion on them. 70% alcohol won't defat your skin, 90% alcohol may (so don't buy that).
mitch96
(13,904 posts)mix mix mix, shake shake shake 75/25 ratio of alcohol and gel. Job done. Me personally I use the hand sanitizer before I use the CDC/WHO hand washing technique. Remember to not cross contaminate and get those fingernails...
To me the proof if this hand washing and self quarantine is working if we see the FLU rate droping also. Then we will know if it works or not... More proof the better...
YMMV
m
Flaleftist
(3,473 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 2, 2020, 07:35 PM - Edit history (1)
It calls for 91% isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol
https://www.wikihow.com/Make-Gel-Alcohol-Hand-Sanitizer
Travel Hat
(117 posts)But rubbing alcohol does have water and other ingredients in it and you need 60% alcohol in your mixture. So adjust your mixture accordingly.
KentuckyWoman
(6,679 posts)It will disinfect and if you survive the plague hopefully you got drunk enough to forget how sick you were.
salin
(48,955 posts)I read about this earlier - and realized I have no idea where to buy it.
Flaleftist
(3,473 posts)salin
(48,955 posts)KentuckyWoman
(6,679 posts)salin
(48,955 posts)Sunscreen area makes sense. Will be easier to find (I have the rubbing alcohol and like the home created aspect.) Thank again!
Kaleva
(36,301 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Just buy 70% alcohol, a pack of disposable dry cloth or paper wipes, and a good common hand lotion. Wipe your hands with an alcohol moistened wipe, let them air dry a few seconds, then put lotion on your hands.
People are really stupid to pay over a hundred dollars for what they can do better with spending maybe $10.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)70% alcohol should be more than adequate. A person will need a packet of dry wipes. I would simply use any good hand lotion after the alcohol dries (about 25-35 seconds).
Travel Hat
(117 posts)Prices are going though the roof. And if the prices seemed low for one particular item the shipping cost like 200 dollars. Also if everything else seemed Ok, the shipping time was like two to three months.
Totally Tunsie
(10,885 posts)I got scammed by ordering N95 carbon-filtered, valved masks, instead receiving plain, thin, unfiltered cotton ones. Credit card dispute is in the works.
madaboutharry
(40,211 posts)since man first strong upright. It has always been the means by which we could measure decency.
The Buddhists say there is basic goodness in everyone. There are days when it is a struggle to see how that can remotely be true.
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)JDC
(10,127 posts)It is sold out everywhere.
I don't live in a small town either.
Just nuts.
CaptYossarian
(6,448 posts)Say that three times fast.
Coventina
(27,120 posts)So far, over 3000 dead due to this virus.
Fail.
CaptYossarian
(6,448 posts)I wash my hands frequently and have been wearing a mask at the clinic before we ever heard of coronavirus.
At the clinic, I don't touch their magazines or elevator buttons. The doors open automatically and people open the interior doors all the time.
I'm not worried.
Coventina
(27,120 posts)grow up
0rganism
(23,954 posts)people think of Y2K as the archetypal non-event, when in fact a lot of people (including me) busted ass for months to make it seem that way
i regard it as a credit to our efforts that Y2K passed quietly and is now widely regarded as techies "crying wolf" or some such.
the COVID-19 outbreak strikes me as far different because the time for effective containment ended prior to discovery of the problem. it's like if Y2K occurred but no one bothered to prepare at all. we are in the middle of a truly amazing clusterfuck, make no mistake.
CaptYossarian
(6,448 posts)Suddenly, he thinks he's conservative ($-wise, anyway). Anything for the people gets slashed, while his golf outings and his tumbling wall bankrupt us.
I don't envy the next mop-up Dem president. To clean up 4 years off insane tyranny will take a miracle.
getagrip_already
(14,751 posts)You could charge $200/hour in some disciplines and work 60 hour weeks....
It was a beddy beddy good time....
But nobody was dying. And nobody will be laughing when tp is $5/roll.
Kaleva
(36,301 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,201 posts).
The same applies to hand sanitation, bleach-based products are far more effective than hand sanitizer.
Most hand sanitizers must remain wet for 5 minutes to be partially effective.
Most people who use it, let it dry in seconds.
.
Kaleva
(36,301 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,201 posts)skip fox
(19,359 posts)I checked it out. 1tbs. to 1 gallon.
And it's especially good to use wiping down surfaces to sanitize.
I'm picking up an empty jug today. It's cheaper by far than commercial products
.
Thanks.
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)For c diff you need a specific concentration so you need disinfecting bleach which is available in some supermarkets and online.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I actually prefer alcohol.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I am reading some of the replies with my mouth agape. Maybe me working with chemicals allow me to see what some clearly don't see.
Anyone that spends more than $20 to protect themselves is making a big mistake.
I would likely go up a little on your bleach concentration and use distilled water instead of tap water. But, a bleach solution at an adequate concentration should be effective, it just stinks and the stink lingers. I would use rubbing alcohol instead.
TheBlackAdder
(28,201 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)rubbing alcohol.
90% will cause some defatting, but that can be resolved by following with a good hand lotion.
I am against telling people to mix chemicals (and everything is a chemical), because unless a person has done that regularly, a person can mix the wrong stuff and harm themselves.
TheBlackAdder
(28,201 posts).
What about the study finding more norovirus outbreaks with use of hand sanitizers?
"This study does not change my routine recommendation that people should use a hand sanitizer," Glatt says. He sees them as especially useful when water is not available.
In the study, published in the American Journal of Infection Control, CDC researchers looked at the use of hand sanitizers by the staff in 91 long-term care facilities. In those where the staff were equally or more likely to use the hand sanitizers over soap and water for routine hand hygiene, the chance of an outbreak was nearly six times greater.
"It's one study, says Glatt.
More research is needed, he and other experts say.
So, is hand washing better than hand sanitizers to prevent infection spread?
Both are important, say Glatt and Brian Sansoni, spokesman for the American Cleaning Institute.
"Soap and water are number one," says Sansoni. "Hand sanitizers are a very effective additional tool."
The sanitizers are meant to supplement, not replace, good old-fashioned soap and water washing, Sansoni says.
The CDC agrees. It says that for norovirus, washing hands is your best prevention, especially after using the bathroom, changing a diaper, and before eating and doing food prep. Sanitizers may help, but they are not a substitute for washing with soap and water.
https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20130208/hand-sanitizers-germs#1
.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)that is where the discussion about hand sanitizers started.
Personally, if I was out and about where I could not wash my hands, like I stated, I would use rubbing alcohol followed by hand lotion, making sure that I got under my nails when wiping with the alcohol wipe.
Rubbing alcohol is generally around 70-73%. If people want a more powerful alcohol, they can use the 90-91% stuff or EverClear (100% alcohol). If they are concerned oil removal from the skin (defatting) they can make a bottle of half rubbing alcohol and half the more powerful stuff. Regardless, they should follow with a common hand lotion, ones that have cinnamon or lavender oil in them would be excellent.
But if people can, they should wash their hands, using a good anti-bacteria soap, like experts recommend they do when they can.
ProfessorGAC
(65,042 posts)Any cGMP facility uses it for nearly instantaneous sterility.
That is 70% isopropanol which every knows as rubbing alcohol.
They do not use 90%.
TheBlackAdder
(28,201 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)the contact time. Rubbing alcohol takes around 25-35 seconds to dissipate. If it kills 99% of stuff on contact, the remaining 20 seconds or so is overkill.
ProfessorGAC
(65,042 posts)A few reasons.
The 30% water raises the vapor pressure of a thin film of liquid making it stay there longer as evaporation slows.
More importantly, that much water raises the surface tension of the mixture exponentially. So, when that is swabbed or wiped, more actually sticks to the surface. Microscopic layer, but then we're talking microbes.
Third, in the presence of liquid that isn't water, the microbes slows activity. So, the denaturing effect of the alcohol slows.
By having that much water, the microbes' respiration does not slow, making the "poisoning" more efficient.
Now, the 3rd one admittedly is less relevant with viruses than bacteria, but the micro folks are always concerned with both, plus mold and fungi.
In actuality, compounds with labile chlorine are more effective because the mechanism is more damaging to the tiny world.
The active ingredient in things like Clorox or Lysol wipes are exactly that, and that is what I'd use.
My advantage is that I have 2 quart jars of the active ingredient at 40% in water/isopropanol in my garage.
That'll last us 10 years.
TheBlackAdder
(28,201 posts)I've posted that elsewhere too, that WebMD states a 400% higher infection transmission using hand sanitizer over soap and water.
sl8
(13,779 posts)[...]
Isopropyl alcohol, particularly in solutions between 60% and 90% alcohol with 10 40% purified water, is rapidly antimicrobial against bacteria, fungi, and viruses. Once alcohol concentrations drop below 50%, usefulness for disinfection drops sharply. Notably, higher concentrations of alcohol dont generate more desirable bactericidal, virucidal, or fungicidal properties.
The presence of water is a crucial factor in destroying or inhibiting the growth of pathogenic microorganisms with isopropyl alcohol. Water acts as a catalyst and plays a key role in denaturing the proteins of vegetative cell membranes. 70% IPA solutions penetrate the cell wall more completely which permeates the entire cell, coagulates all proteins, and therefore the microorganism dies. Extra water content slows evaporation, therefore increasing surface contact time and enhancing effectiveness. Isopropyl alcohol concentrations over 91% coagulate proteins instantly. Consequently, a protective layer is created which protects other proteins from further coagulation.
Solutions > 91% IPA may kill some bacteria, but require longer contact times for disinfection, and enable spores to lie in a dormant state without being killed. A 50% isopropyl alcohol solution kills Staphylococcus Aureus in less than 10 seconds (pg. 238), yet a 90% solution with a contact time of over two hours is ineffective. Some disinfectants will kill spores with exposures times that exceed 3-12 hours, which are classified as chemical sterilants. So why do higher alcohol solutions yield fewer results for bactericidal and antimicrobial outcomes?
[...]
More at link.
I saw a study on this topic a few months ago, but can't for the life me find it now.
sl8
(13,779 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 3, 2020, 12:51 PM - Edit history (1)
https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/emergency/drinking/making-water-safe.htmlThey recommend a little less than 1/8 teaspoon per gallon, double that for murky or very cold water.
Where did you see 1 tablespoon (3 teaspoons) per gallon recommended?
BTW, they recommend more than 1 tablespoon/gallon, for cleaning some surfaces. They list different concentrations for different types of surfaces:
https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/emergency/cleaning-sanitizing/household-cleaning-sanitizing.html
pecosbob
(7,538 posts)Purell Hand Sanitizer (ethyl alcohol), Purell Food surface Sanitizer (ethyl alcohol) and an institutional sanitizer (ammonia) which is listed specifically to be effective against Coronavirus (ATCC VR-740, Strain 229E). My take is that dilute bleach or ammonia are the probably most effective and the most practical. The crucial part is to thoroughly wet the area and to leave the solution on for ten minutes if possible.
Timewas
(2,194 posts)Everyone knows not to mix bleach and ammonia...
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Also, NEVER mix bleach and hydrogen peroxide.
demigoddess
(6,641 posts)I like it. You can even use it on babies, If I remember right.
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)store. $1.25.
KentuckyWoman
(6,679 posts)They just recently got smacked by the FDA for making claims science does not support.
Kaleva
(36,301 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Kaleva
(36,301 posts)Dagstead Bumwood
(3,630 posts)of the metric system, some might think that's a good deal.
535 milliliters? Hell, what is that, like a drum?
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)dalton99a
(81,492 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)robbedvoter
(28,290 posts)you don't need that!
Dr. Strange
(25,921 posts)Who's your hand sanitizer guy?
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBYZwLe.img