A big hole in the US coronavirus plan:

[milestogo]

Link to tweet

[Chemisse]

1. Many people will be going to work with a mild case.

You're not going to stay home and nurse a case of the sniffles when you have to feed your family and pay the rent.

[milestogo]

3. Right, so they will go to work and keep spreading the virus.

[Warpy]

5. This will be the final nail in the coffin for a lot of retail

and it's also going to hit food service really hard because these are two occupations notorious for insisting their workers come in sick and fire them if they stay out.

A lot of the policies that rich men love because they think poor people need to be beaten into working hard are going to bite this country in the ass---hard---and I'm not even addressing the health care mess.

[dflprincess]

2. The other big hole is the out of pockets most people deal with especially those who haven't met

their deductibles.

People will delay going to a doctor and, in the long wrong, increase overall costs and more people will die because they waited.

[MontanaMama]

8. Yep.

I paid $18,000 in premiums last year for my family of 3. We have a silver plan...with a $4000 per person deductible, $8000 for the family. I’ll pay over $19,000 this year and the deductibles went up to $4500 per person, $9000 for the family. It’s awful.

[BigmanPigman]

12. Health Insur went up 20% in 2019-20!

I want to know who got a 20% pay increase.

If you look at this list that a fellow DUer posted, you will look at how much everything increased in our lives and nothing is close to health insur. When I had to update my Blue Shield through the ACA in Dec the guy told me they all went up and he was not kidding. I have the ACA with tax credits and it is still 25% of my fixed income. This doesn't include co-pays, out of pocket costs and prescriptions either (those are several more thousand a year).

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t02.htm

I am supposed to be grateful I have any insur at all since I have two pre-existing conditions and can't work and the GOP and SCOTUS will take a look at it again after the election. When I got retirement disability through my state teachers program I chose not to get the health insur they offered since it would be more than than the ACA. Now I can't ever get that offer back and I had no idea that the ACA would ever be on the chopping block (again and again). This is fucked up!

[yellowdogintexas]

13. the CEO of your insurance company got the raise you can bet on it nt

[BigmanPigman]

15. He probably did, you're right!

[MontanaMama]

16. Probably.

There are only 2 insurance companies that offer plans on the individual market in MT. One is BCBSH who prices their plans so high that they’re not actually competing and the other company, Pacific Source prices their plans slightly lower than that under the guise of being “affordable”. My silver plan premium is $1583 a month....a hell of a lot more than my mortgage.

[magicarpet]

4. Sorry,...

We are proud capitalists not socialists.

Call your undertaker and be sure to order the mahogany one with the deluxe velvet lining and the fancy pallbearer brass handles. It will be so good for the economy and help trDump get elected to his well deserved second term.

[SunSeeker]

9. OFFS. Socialism doesn't guarantee good health care/sick leave. Only a competent government does.

Capitalism does not preclude good healthcare. All of the Scandinavian countries are CAPITALIST economies. The only difference is their governments regulate their businesses to protect the public interest and assure there's a good safety net. Bernie is desd wrong when he says that is socialism, and the leader of Denmark has corrected him. https://www.vox.com/2015/10/31/9650030/denmark-prime-minister-bernie-sanders

My family escaped from a socialist country where the only people who had good healthcare and decent time off were the party bosses. Spare me the socialism fantasy. I know better.

[malaise]

23. Their governments don't just regulate their businesses to protect the public interest

Their governments also guarantee and deliver the social good. Further their citizens don't mind high taxes because these guarantees are delivered.

[SunSeeker]

25. Correct. But none of that makes them a socialist country.

Socialism is government ownership of the means of production. That's why Bernie never gives a straight answer when asked to define socialism. Or worse, he misrepresents it as "what Denmark has."

Bernie's hero is not capitalist FDR, but socialist Eugene Debs, who thought government should take over all capital (means of production) and transfer ownership to workers. That is anathema to what Americans believe; it has not been proven to work in a modern economy.

Only a free market (supply and demand driven capitalism) has been shown to be sustainable in the long run, so long as it is properly regulated and workers are protected by robust safety net programs supported by broad taxation. That is what Denmark, and much of Europe, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and Japan have.

It is reprehensible that Bernie is disguising his views as nothing more than the social programs of the Scandinavian countries. Bernie, doing the voice of Eugene Debs, in this glowing documentary he made celebrating Eugene Debs, lays out his true beliefs:

[malaise]

30. That is not accurate

There are a variety of socialist systems - communism which the Soviets and others called Scientific Socialism, Democratic Socialism which is a mixed economy where the ownership of the means of production is mixed. Public transportation has been publicly owned for centuries and schools were owned by both private and public interests. All Western countries had public and private hospitals. Then there are varieties of that and Social Democracy as practiced in the Scandinavian countries is the best example.

Julius Nyerere in Tanzania introduced African socialism and was one of the most decent leaders anywhere on the planet.

Funny that Capitalism worked well with government run transportation and public schools and universities -now it it corporate greed on steroids better known as neo-liberalism and any attempt to balance the system in favor of all but the oligarchs and their corporations is met with horrendous opposition.
Now they even want to privatize the fucking water.

Democracy cannot survive this type of capitalism.

[SunSeeker]

35. No, definitions matter. Look up socialism in Webster's.

Here, I'll do it for you:

Definition of socialism

1. any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

The Soviets' socialism descended into a kleptocracy,any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods as they all do. When you don't use market forces to determine where capital should be allocated. It invariably becomes inefficient and wasteful. And with government bosses having that much power, it invariably leads to corruption.

Infrastructure, including schools and water, are best run by the government since they are large endeavors that don't sell an immediately profitable product, and we (and capitalism) can't live without them. That is why government does those things. These sort of services fall into the category of regulation/safety net programs that all capitalist countries leave to government to do to various degrees. Privatizing water is prompted by corrupt government officials seeking to make their cronies rich by theft of public property (water) to resell to the people they stole it from.

Capitalism is not the enemy of democracy. Corruption is. And corruption, in the long run, is the enemy of capitalism as well.
Socialism does not protect us from corruption. It hasn't in any country with a socialist economy.

We need to stop corruption and strengthen our democracy. We can't do that with socialism, as history has shown us.

[malaise]

37. Webster?

Why would I use a dictionary for my own discipline? I own every useful text book on the subject.

[SunSeeker]

39. Because if you're going to use the English language, English language definitions matter. nt

[malaise]

40. I won't grace this with a response n/t

[Turin_C3PO]

31. Not all aspects of socialism are bad.

For instance, I see nothing wrong with letting workers own chunks of the companies value. Workers make the company profitable, they should reap some rewards.

[SunSeeker]

33. "Letting" and ordering are two very different things.

Workers choosing the purchase shares of their company, and the company's owners choosing to it to them, is capitalism. The government ordering companies to give ownership shares to workers or to the government is socialism, and that is bad, and that is what Bernie is advocating in that video.

[Turin_C3PO]

34. But I'm saying

that I’d have no problem with laws forcing corporations to share with their workers. I don’t see why that would be the end of the world. As far as Sanders goes, I support Biden because he has the best chance of beating Trump.

[SunSeeker]

36. Got it. Well then you are a socialist. And honest about what you want.

Unlike Sanders.

[Turin_C3PO]

38. I wouldn't say I'm a full on socialist.

I still believe in private profits and free-enterprise, for the most part. Who knows, maybe my worker profit sharing scheme wouldn’t work in the real world, I’m just trying to think of a way to lessen the power that the uber-rich hold in this country.

[SunSeeker]

41. Well then you're like me, wanting a robust social safety net and regulation of the market.

That is accomplished by democracy. There's way more of us than the uber rich, so we have a fighting chance, if we vote, of putting back in place the progressive taxation of the 1950s and 60s that can fund these programs. With a progressive government, we can have the same programs as the Scandinavian countries, that simultaneously protect workers and spur entrepreneurship. Having programs that enable workers to purchase ownership stakes in their employers is one of the ways to accomplish the goals we want.

[ahoysrcsm]

28. Exactly...

We are proud capitalists not socialists.

The Socialist party can fuck right off. We are a Capitalist country, even the social Democrat running wants to implement Regulated Capitalism according to some of his supporters.

So the Socialist, they can vote for the Democrat, but you will not be hijacking our party, as the so called "tea party" cultist hijacked the GOP.

[PatrickforO]

6. True enough. In fact, a good post. But you know the BIGGEST hole?

Or perhaps the biggest a-hole?

Trump.

As someone on MSNBC said, he is 'uniquely unsuited' to deal with this crisis.

[MontanaMama]

7. Is this paid sick days per year?

Or?? Also wondering if this statistic shows sick day benefits for state/government jobs? Surely this wouldn’t be in the private sector. I’m curious to know for sure.

My husband and I employ 8 people in our two small businesses. We pay for health insurance, paid vacations, comp/flex time and company matched 401k. Nobody makes less than $23 an hour. There’s no way I could offer sick days like this table illustrates. I WANT to but it isn’t possible in our business.

[subterranean]

10. Yes, it's paid sick days per year, including the private sector.

In some countries, the sick leave is partly paid by the government, so the employer isn't responsible for the entire amount.

[lostnfound]

19. Good for you for paying minimum $23 an hour and for employing people

Even if there were exceptions to the rule, the fact that most people in these other countries have it would help everyone in the case of contagion.

We live in a society that encourages inhumane treatment of workers.

Curious though, if one person at your company comes in to work with coronavirus and your whole staff catches it, will you go out of business? This situation poses a threat in more ways than one, to small businesses.
A tough situation.

[MontanaMama]

22. Good question.

I would like to think we could weather the storm and as it stands, if someone is sick, we as employers ask and encourage folks to stay home. While we can’t pay sick days, employees can save the time (comp time/flex time) where they’ve worked over 8 hours or the extra weekend days we work at trade shows...we have an agreement that since we don’t pay overtime but will either pay out that time right away at payroll or they can save it for sick days or when they take their kids to the dentist or stay home with sick kiddos, when they take a Friday off to go camping etc...their choice...it’s a cushion that they all seem to appreciate. All that said, it sounds like a person could be infected with covid19 and not know it...they could spread it to others and there’s a possibility we could all get it at the same time which would be devastating.

[Turin_C3PO]

32. It applies to the private sector

in those countries. I’m not sure how they do it. Maybe the government compensates them?

[Beartracks]

11. Thanks, Republicans!

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. Always.

[smirkymonkey]

14. I work for a good company and we get a whopping five days.

I was very sick during the beginning of the year with a cold, but probably not contagious since I had it for a few weeks already, but I went in and they sent me home. It's not that you can't stay home, but it's that it LOOKS bad if you stay home, so people come in sick because they are afraid of being judged as being malingerers.

[woundedkarma]

17. same issue

I work for a small (practically tiny) company with three offices in different states.

A few months back HR sends out an email pointing out that you should stay home (in nice words) when you're sick.

All the hourly workers get 3 paid sick days.

That's more than a lot of people get in this country. But I find the irony humorous. I took off one day because I was sick and felt miserable a couple weeks back. Last week I was sick again but didn't take any time off, just tried to avoid sneezing on people. Using 2/3rds of my sick time in the first two months is just a really bad plan.

And what happens when I get this coronavirus? If I don't die, I might still be told to stay home for a couple weeks if I catch it. I can't afford that, I have bills to pay.

I talked to my manager. He's a pretty reasonable guy. I'm hoping he'll bring it up with the other managers next week. I'm lucky that I have a job where working at home (despite being told we couldn't do that when I first got hired) is a possibility. Others at my company aren't so lucky, plus their jobs require them to visit places with a large (100s of people) amount of traffic every day.

[HAB911]

20. If is wasn't so sad it would be funny

MOST workers MUST go to work when they are sick or lose pay and maybe their jobs. Long ago I stopped eating at Darden restaurants because their employees have to work while sick. Darden is just an example because the situation is endemic across the food industry, because they say YOU won't pay anymore for the food they serve to ensure you don't get coronavirus or any of the thousands of other diseases you are being exposed to.

The food industry is just the most obvious because you put what they serve in your mouth. Now we must endure this collapse of retail, brought to us by the Republican mindset

[Horse with no Name]

21. Dallas County mandates employers to provide sick leave

1 hour for every 30 hours worked up to 64 hours each year.

[zackymilly]

24. We've already got people coming to work sick wearing face masks. They need to stay home!

I'm avoiding them, plus using hand sanitizer/lysol and refusing to shake clients' hands.

[Poiuyt]

26. Without looking, how many of those flags do you know?

[Bucky]

29. Damn you

Netherlands {something} Denmark Sweden Germany Belgium...

Is that New Zealand at just 5? They're fucked too.

[Bucky]

27. Dude... restaurant workers

Damn, sell your Golden Corrall stocks

[McCamy Taylor]

42. Plus they will charge you for the testing and care associated with your quarantine

in this country. Meaning most people will just "ride it out".