How my friend handled a Trumper relative

[Louis1895]

A friend of mine shared this e-mail and gave me permission to post it here. I found it a succinct way of stating principles matter more than how well the stock market is faring:

For the third time in as many weeks, a close relative has made some reference to the 2020 election in an email to me. The most recent said:

"I know you are a liberal democrat and hate Trump. I, on the other hand, feel all politicians are worthless and don't mind telling you that if in the 8 years of Obama my net worth increased say (for comparison) $10,000, in the 3 years of Trump ending Dec. 2019 my net worth increased $14,000.00. It won't change any of your thinking but you might want to check your portfolio. I'm happy with mine."

My response:

"Well if an increase in your own personal net worth is the only parameter shaping your views, I guess your decision is rational.

"If you care about the importance of basic human rights, the rule of law (a government of laws not men), the traditional, long-standing role of the United States in promoting democracy and freedom of the press around the world, the idea that public policy should be based on the best scientific data possible, the value of the national park system and its contributions to the well-being of this nation, or the effort to support fair and respectful treatment of people who are female, black, immigrants, disabled or impoverished--or in any way disadvantaged by illness, lack of opportunity, etc.--if you care about any of those things, then you are probably making a decision based on your own financial gain that works against your core values.

"I know we have different values. Maybe none of those things matter to you. They do to me. And I have benefited from this stock market, too. Other things are much more important to me.

"I suggest we avoid this topic moving forward.

[dhol82]

1. He's a lot more polite than I could ever be.

[SammyWinstonJack]

10. No kidding. More polite then that self serving person deserved.

[barbtries]

41. ditto.

i wonder how far the trumpster read.

[gratuitous]

2. A very good response

Trump supporters find one metric where his administration hasn't sucked the hind ouitata, and bang on that with everything they've got. It doesn't matter if anything Trump has actually done has improved that metric (spoiler alert, almost certainly not), they'll cling to it like grim death. The response here does a good job of running down a short compendium of things that are decidedly worse under Trump, and rounds it off with "Other things are much more important to me."

A very good response.

[genxlib]

3. Not to mention

His increase in net worth is offset by the increase in debt as the Country takes on deficit spending to pay for the tax cuts that were used to juice that economy.

If my math works out, he is about $10,000 upside down on that arrangement. Unless of course he has the good fortune of being in the 1% that made out like bandits.

[cannabis_flower]

16. I wonder..

how much his portfolio lost in the 8 years of Bush right before Obama?

[MyOwnPeace]

21. Correct!

There's no credit given for PRESIDENT Obama's saving the country from financial chaos. One can only imagine (and have nightmares!) of how IQ45 and his band of thieves would have picked up after Shrub/Dick started the tumble.

[OMGWTF]

39. Under Obama the Dow Jones nearly trippled.

[jmowreader]

44. I have no doubt how they would have picked up

Trump would have done everything he could to accelerate the free fall. The predatory investors who gather around Trump would have gotten rich.

[soldierant]

65. Not to ention that, based on the figures he gives,

I would bet a a body part or two that it (the portfolio) is stuffed with paper from corporations I would never buy stock from and am in fact doing what I can to divest from.

[C_U_L8R]

4. If someone is stupid enough to vote for Trump

I'd question their math skills as well as their judgement.

[louis-t]

34. And their lying skills.

I would question whether he is telling the truth.

[RAB910]

5. The Trump relative needs to learn about percentages

[NoMoreRepugs]

7. Exactly, Rumps "stock market" has a looooong ways

to go to approximate the BHO market results. It’s all about the math.

[RAB910]

12. I was a bit lazy before, but here's how it works

Last edited Mon Feb 3, 2020, 01:58 PM - Edit history (1)

suppose Trump cultist started with $10,000 and it grew to $20,000 (the increase he claimed under President Obama)

That is an increase of 100%

Now he has $20,000 and it grew to $34,000 (the amount he claimed under Trump)

That increase under Trump is only 70%

[SunSeeker]

24. THIS

[Louis1895]

37. Article with charts

The S&P 500 Is at an All Time High—But Markets Still Performed Far Better Under Obama Than Trump

For example:

?w=1024

[calimary]

58. A keeper!

[oldsoftie]

72. Thank you for that. My trump friend is MUCH more educated on stocks than I

And i'm sure he would LOVE to see these charts since he says he tries to stay up to date on things

[Cartoonist]

6. Obama started out in the hole

Bush left a housing crisis that destroyed the economy. He left the country in pretty good shape. Trump deserves no credit.

Should the economy tank due to his tax cuts and tariffs, he will get all the blame

[RVN VET71]

18. It will, as a sage once noted, roll off his back like duck water

If things go as we pray they will in November, the Trump economy will still collapse because its a house of cards, but the blame will go not to Trump but to newly elected President Bidigiegwarsanyangbucharberg. (Hedging all my bets here!)

Just like Cheney/Bush's disastrous economic depression was laid on the shoulders of Obama.

[not_the_one]

28. That is because the democrats refuse to control the narrative.

The repubs have lied through their teeth for decades, therefore controlling perception. And you can see what we have as a result of it. Hell, we can't even take back a word (liberal).

WE don't have to lie. But we can sure as hell POINT OUT THE LIES, immediately, making sure it doesn't seep into the American conscious as truth (you know, like not addressing Barr's lies about Mueller's report for WEEKS, until Mueller's correcting of Barr was too little, too late????).

We at the bottom can vote (including GOTV), chat up our candidates with friends, put out our yard signs, maybe even run for a low level office, but the TOP of the party is responsible for the public discourse reflecting our party.

They need to get off their asses, take off their gloves, and JUST DO IT. They will find they have a party membership of die-hard lifetime democrats AND new, fresh face democrats, who are thirsty for a little truth to power.

All it takes is a will to do it.

We are now in a new political climate. The same old, same old, is done, over (ain't gonna hack it, won't fly, dog won't hunt, whatever your colloquialism is).

We need to shape up, to get down.

[Yavin4]

8. First, any increase in portfolios is due to the Fed, not Trump.

The Fed has kept interest rates low during Trump's presidency and that's why your friend' portfolio is up.

Second the difference in returns for Obama, $10K, vs. Trump, $14K is negligible. In fact, it simply reflects inflated value, not a real sustainable increase.

Talk to me after the Fed returns rates to normal.

[Rainbow Droid]

53. Market corrections will more than wipe out those "gains" when the scammers cash out.

And confidence will be so badly damaged that short term recovery will be impossible.

Even long term recovery will be incredibly painful for 99% of Americans, and the 1% who have stolen America's future will blame the rest of us for the crash (but only after they've stashed it all offshore).

Then it'll be like Hudson in Aliens:

"SCAM OVER MAN!!! SCAM OVER!!!!"

[NewJeffCT]

9. Another difference

that $10,000 gain from Obama being in office was probably offsetting a $32,000 loss from the Great Bush Recession

[SunSeeker]

22. Not probably, DEFINITELY.

Should have asked the relative how much their portfolio went down under the Bush.

Also, the relative does not understand percentages. Obama doubled the value of the stock market. Trump did not. This poster explains it nicely. https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212944511#post12

[Rider3]

11. Nice

You did a very good job with this.

[llmart]

13. The value of one's portfolio at any given moment...

is unimportant. What matters is what the value is at the time you need it or have to start using some of it. The same applies to the value of your house. What my house is worth today means nothing to me. The value of my house when I have to sell it is what's important to me. I've owned four houses in my lifetime and one was worth a whole lot more than what I paid for it, one was worth only a bit more, one was worth exactly what I paid for it and the one I'm in now is worth much more, but I'm not selling it now.

I find your friend's outlook on our country very typical of most Americans. It's a self-centered attitude. When did we start defining greatness of a country by only one metric - the economy? Why do we tie the term "successful life" only to how much money one makes? I have never defined who I am as a person and what my life has been like only by what I own or make. Hell, we have the perfect example of an individual who had a life with plenty of money, but when he dies, who will care? His kids and wife will only care if they inherit something.

[PatSeg]

19. Exactly

A person's stock portfolio is not a substantial indicator of one's financial well-being or the economy, as the stock market is very fickle. Any gains today could be lost in a financial crisis tomorrow. Most stock prices are artificially inflated anyway and many fortunes have been made and lost in a short period of time. If that money isn't there when you retire and need it, you would have been better off putting in a high interest savings account or CD.

A good economy is build on solid ground, not shifting sand and today's stock market tends to be more speculation than investment.

[llmart]

45. Very true.

Also, this guy is the kind of person that you'd never hear brag on those days when the stock market tanks. Same type of person who's a gambler and only tells you when he wins and how much, but never talks about all the times he loses.

[PatSeg]

48. Oh yes, we've all known people like that!

[llmart]

49. I had a brother like that.

He was a real piece of work. Thought he was brilliant and too good to work at a real job. He died and left his wife penniless. She wasn't the brightest bulb in the pack either.

[PatSeg]

52. I know the type

He probably was a big tipper too, because it was all about the appearance of success, even if that tip came out of the grocery money.

[llmart]

54. Oh, absolutely.

He'd always have to pick up the check even though their house was being foreclosed on.

[PatSeg]

56. Then we're talking about the same type of person

Years ago, they were often referred to as $500 millionaires. If they had any money in their pocket, they spent it like they were wealthy and a handful of people fell for it. When they ran short, quite conveniently they had left their wallet at home!

[genxlib]

20. I would go a step further

"when did we start defining a successful economy by the stock market?"

While they often move together, they are not the same thing. In many ways, the things that are good for the stock market in the short term are really bad for the economy in the long run. Off-shoring is the perfect example. It can boost a company stock but the economy is poorer for it.

It has only gotten worse in the last 30 years. The way company leaders are compensated has led to perverse incentives for short term thinking aimed only at stock price. As opposed to strategic leadership aimed at the long term health and stability of the Company (and ultimately the economy).

[Prosper]

29. Said genxlib:

“ led to perverse incentives for short term thinking aimed only at stock price”

Particularly shorting stocks. The predator trying for short selling will do everything in his power to make the object company fail. For example see ackman’s attempt to ruin Herbalife.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune.com/2016/07/15/herbalife-bill-ackman-settlement-ftc/amp/

[llmart]

46. Excellent summary.

We are not a country particularly known for foresight and long term planning.

[ChiTownDenny]

14. Bull Shite!

That guy lost money and was in the red, stock market and real estate, by the time Obama became president. His net worth increased significantly more under Obama than it has under Trump.

[EleanorR]

15. And if you become sick or disabled, that 14 grand and more will be gone in the blink of an eye

[D_Master81]

17. This is what worries me going forward

That we the American people have reduced the presidency to how is the economy and nothing more. Obviously this began before trump but that’s mostly what I hear from trump supporters is the economy is good. Great response and 1 that needs to be repeated over and over. Unfortunately I fear many Americans no longer do care about those things it’s all about how’s the 401k look.

[Cosmocat]

23. They are 1000% full of shit - "portfolio" is the same as bible and constitution to them

they don't have the first GD clue about any of them, they just pull $hit out out of their arses cause in their bones they know CONSERVATIVE GOOD, LIBERAL BAD.

[wally baby]

25. I always say

"I guess you voted for Obama in 2012, right?"

[mdbl]

69. As most people here have, you are on democratic underground

where common sense rules and conservatism drools.

[Newest Reality]

26. Ah!

I was wondering how much a soul was going for these days. I think a four-thousand-dollar increase in net worth is a great deal and would like to place a bid on that one. I mean, that's a steal and Satan is getting some good bargains these days.

All, sarcasm aside, that wasn't a bad way to handle one of those surface sliding critters who make associations that simply support their own, limited box of thoughts. Confirmation bias and self-interest are counterproductive to a free and thriving society, especially when you have to listen to the post-rationalizations some people make to justify irrational behavior.

[Squinch]

27. Also, send him a comparison of the stock market in Obama's

first 3 years to trumps. Obama did better.

[subana]

30. money is all any of them care about!!

it's probably the only thing they will ever care about!!

I remember during W's administration I was having a discussion with a conservative & we were talking about some election, I forget which one. He said that if the dems win, it would mean they would raise taxes. I told him there are some things that are more important than money like safety, the environment, terrorism, etc. This was after 9/11 when everyone was worried about terrorism & we were still concerned about how to keep air travel safe.

To me, it was more important to keep people safe than to worry about the govt raising their taxes! They often look at how much money is being spent without considering the benefits the money provides!

[Martin Eden]

32. And they are clueless about long term impacts

Increased environmental toxins can shorten their life, and that of their children.

Denying the impact of climate change will cost most of us a great deal, financially and otherwise.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

33. Wish I could rec your post 1000!

Good point trumpers need to be hammered by it.

[Martin Eden]

31. GREAT response!!!

I'd be interested in knowing how the Trumper reacted to that.

[Paladin]

35. I haven't given my trump-supporting acquaintances that much time and effort.

I've simply detached from them and set them adrift. No regrets. I recommend that the rest of you do the same.

[oldsoftie]

73. Thats sad if you had other things in common.

The only trumpers i've detached from are those who decided to do it to ME. A couple crybabies didnt like me pointing out fake facts.. But i have far too much fun with friends & family who dont think like me politically. And i have a few acquaintances politically who i'd have nothing to do with outside of campaigns. They're just nothing like me. I'm not going to make my world smaller because of who someone did or didnt vote for unless there is a lot of other things wrong. We just dont talk politics other than a joke or two. And everyone know s that if you cant take it, dont dish it out. I cant wait to use the chart posted above.....

[Paladin]

74. trump worshippers need to know there's a high price to be paid.

We either take steps to stop them now, or we do it in a civil war. Have no doubt---that's where things stand right now.

[gordianot]

36. Net worth is a bogus calculation and certainly is not dependent on Presidential policies.

Staying alive paying against liabilities increases net worth. A $4,000 increase in net worth is quickly consumed by illness, a broken furnace or leaky roof.

[Hamlette]

38. The stock market went up about 150% under Obama, 50% under Trump.

The dow was at about 8300 when Obama took office and about 20,000 when he left. It is now near 30,000.

If your relative made his money in the market, he's lying.

[oldsoftie]

71. We'd have to compare the 1st 3 years, not all 8. I haven't done it yet.

I saw a post on FB (from someone i didnt know), on a story about the market. He said "I lost money under obam, i'm making money now!". My response was "If you, or anyone else, lost money in the market during Obama, you need to either fire your financial advisor or FIND one for God's sake"
No response. Of course. Because he was lying and he knew it

[MrModerate]

40. If the relative's portfolio was so poorly managed that it underperformed during the Obama years...

There won't be enough Trump years to make up his loss.

[certainot]

42. could also say "if all you care about is money go fuck yourself"

[ProgressDiv]

43. Comparing Obama to Trump on stock value misses the point

Why are stocks up under Trump? Because his tax cuts went largely to big corporations. The lie was that they would use the funds to increase wages. They did not, nor did they invest.

Instead, they bought back stock -- which inflates its value in the short term. Since top execs have stock options they gave themselves a raise rather than the workers.

So the value of these stocks is related to a one-time event unrelated to productivity. That is a fragile source of "value". (He might as his Republican friend what he thought W. Bush had "done" for his stocks in early 2007 versus early 2008.)

Basically, Trump and the Cons borrowed money from taxpayers and gave it to stockholders. (The tax cuts have added a trillion dollars to the deficit so far, with all but the wealthiest getting nothing in return for this debt.)

[roamer65]

47. If the markets crash, it somehow will be President Obama's fault.

[DeminPennswoods]

50. It should be exactly the opposite,

the better off one becomes, the less net worth should matter. At least I've found it really is more fun to give than to receive.

[lunatica]

51. If that person gained a net worth of $10,000 during Obama

that means that he actually lost at least twice that amount in his portfolio which would have put his net worth at - $20,000 when Obama took office. Which means, if he were to do his math correctly, that he gained a net worth of $30,000 by recouping his losses and then adding that $10,000 he claims.

So in reality IMPOTUS’s Wall Street wasn’t all that great after all. But he’s ignoring that which is typical.

[Skittles]

55. your friend is a lying, selfish asshole

I would not want to be friends with him, not at ALL

[sammythecat]

63. Succinct, to the point,

and I completely agree.

[Warpy]

57. My take might have been a little different

That fast increase in his net worth was mostly the result of the tax cuts, especially the windfall to corporations. Instead of hight workers, investing in their infrastructure, or raising wages, those corporations have engaged in massive stock buybacks to pump the price and increase the net worth of their executives and major shareholders. At the same time, we hit the trillion dollar mark in the Federal deficit earlier in the fiscal year and that's trillion with a "T." Eventually this sort of squandering of the country's wealth on tax cuts that do nothing to support the general economy will put so much pressure on government that more cost cutting will be in order, so you had better figure out how your net worth is going to support you in the absence of Social Security and Medicare because they'll be first on the chopping block.

People lost in avarice don't give a shit about human rights or the finer points of government policy. You have to talk to them where their hearts are kept, in their wallets.

[Gore1FL]

59. The stock market grew more under Obama in the same span than it did Trump.

DJIA Jan 21, 2009 was 7,550.29
DJIA Feb 3 2012 was 12,862.23
12,862.23 / 7,550.29 = 1.70, or a 70% gain

DJIA Jan 20, 2017 19,827.25
DJIA Today is 28,399.8
28,399.8/19,827.25 = 1.43 or a 43% gain.

[calimary]

60. This one's a real keeper, for sure!

[TryLogic]

61. Offering a non-financial reply to a Trumper

Posted on Facebook: State Dept was Granted $120 million to Fight Russian Meddling. It has spent $0. Source NYTimes.com.

Friend of a friend: “First of all, Obama was in office during the allocation. Why did the money not get spent then. Secondly, Tillerson is no longer there. Just more skewed cock and bull from a biased rag of a newspaper. Please stop spreading this crap.”

My response: “I don't know who you are, but you are obviously a supporter of the most rampant liar I have ever seen. I hope you are gullible rather than the other possibilities that come to mind.”

[czarjak]

62. Don't forget October 2008 though.

[Snarkoleptic]

64. I handle it the way the author did, also pointing out Obama did better on equity growth.

Obama vs. Trump - first 35 months in office**

Obama Dow +52.3% <<Clear advantage
Trump Dow +43.5%

Obama S&P 500 +54.2% <<Clear advantage
Trump S&P 500 +41.8%

Obama NASDAQ +80.7% <<Clear advantage
Trump NASDAQ +60.6%

All of this was pulled from Yahoo finance, double and triple checked.
*Snark tested, Snark approved*

[PatrickforO]

66. Well said. Lots of stuff more important than one's stock portfolio. n/t

[applegrove]

67. Obama had to clean up Bush's subprime mess. Obama left Trump a healthy

economy. What has he done with it? Gone into trillion dollar debt during an expansion.

[Mike Niendorff]

68. A simpler response:

"Enjoy your thirty pieces of silver."


MDN

[DownriverDem]

70. I have never

voted based on the economy. Many other issues are just as important if not more important.

[Nitram]

75. Perfect response!!!!

[benld74]

76. tRump years the DOW increase near to 30,000

Of course the Fed has infused billions into repurchases since September 2019!
Mainly because banks still don’t have the liquidity they need. Fed knows this.

So, how much of the DOW is true??

[ProfessorGAC]

77. I Don't Believe The Relative At All

First, if it went up only 10 grand in 8 years, guy didn't have a fucking "portfolio". He had a small retirement account.
Given that, his 3 year claim of 14k supersedes the rest of the markets but around 100%.
Besides that, the math makes no sense.
So the whole thing is based on a Trumpet lying in the first place.