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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Santorum Baby Controversy
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2012/1/6/92811/35480The Santorum Baby Controversy
by BooMan
Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 09:28:11 AM EST
In general, people who criticize the Santorum family for bringing their stillborn baby home to meet the kids are going to look worse than the family they are criticizing. The gruesome facts of this case don't matter. If you're envisioning a fully-formed baby, don't. If you've ever had a 20-week ultrasound where the doctor either found or did not find a penis, then you know what got brought home for the kids. Instead of a printout, something far more disturbing was distributed. But I am going to be savagely honest about this both for the critics and for the Santorums. The loss of a pregnancy at any stage of development is (or should be) the most intensely private thing that can possibly happen. It's so private, in fact, that I could never discuss my experiences beyond merely saying that I've had them. I've had them, and I learned one thing above all from the experiences. No one has the right, not even your closest loved ones, to inquire into the circumstances or details of your personal tragedy. I can think of nothing crueler than to ask questions about why a pregnancy was lost. If you've experienced a spontaneous abortion or an ectopic pregnancy, you will understand the need for a right to privacy. Nothing else could make that case for you in such a compelling and convincing manner.
snip//
This is why the legality of abortion is inseparable from the right to privacy. Even a society that held that abortion is morally wrong, would have to also hold that putting any burden on parents who have suffered a miscarriage is even more wrong. What's sad is that the Santorums didn't learn this lesson from their tragedy. What they did instead was to make their tragedy as public as possible and use their experience as a way to advocate for the mistreatment of others in their same situation.
How we balance the rights of a woman and the rights of a fetus is morally complicated, and different people will come to different conclusions. But, legally, anyone who has gone through what the Santorums went through, should be able to agree that the state has no legitimate role in making any inquiries of any kind.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)whether the pregnancy was induced or she went into labor.
For the average person this would not make any difference
but for santorum it does.
He goes around trying to make abortion illegal for all
babylonsister
(171,094 posts)his experience, but I don't know that getting so personal about his family's tragedy benefits anyone.
hlthe2b
(102,379 posts)it would never aid in making the point because the sympathy factor is just too strong. It would be akin to trying to assert a parent claiming a vaccine had caused the birth defect devastating their child had actually caused the damage by something they did themselves (e.g., non-prescribed medications, voluntary exposure to potentially toxic fumes, or something similar). While making the case might be necessary to counter an unwarranted lawsuit, to do so just to make a point, will inevitably paint the "accuser" as horrendously cruel and "immoral."
Yes, I agree that there could be a case made that in treating the uterine infection--which ultimately saved the Mother, that the miscarriage could have been either an intentional or consequential result. Nonetheless, I doubt one could ever succeed in changing attitudes towards Santorum from this exposure of hypocrisy--the sympathy factor is just too strong.
We shouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot pole, IMO...for both ethical (and strategic) reasons.
moriah
(8,311 posts)(It's very likely her medical records show a D&C or other surgical procedure to clean her out after the baby was born -- I think that's common in septic miscarriage to ensure all the infected material is removed).
I find this issue more compelling from the standpoint of the EMTALA and inevitable miscarriage of a nonviable fetus.
Regardless of if they accepted the life-saving treatment that was offered them -- labor induction -- it was offered to them despite the fact their baby still had a heartbeat. Their statements were to the effect that if there had been no other choice they would have induced. In many Catholic hospitals, the option would not have been available because the child still had a heartbeat, especially that close to the viability threshold. Physicians working in such hospitals are not even allowed to mention the option to their patients.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636458/?tool=pubmed
Very good article on how miscarriages are handled in religious facilities.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)He's was just being true to his morals
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)Yes, he was full-term, but I personally don't think it's for us to judge at what stage of development parents can bond when they are expecting.
I've only been able to glance at GD since there have been so many threads about this and the comments and OPs are not only offensive, they're sickening. And some of the people doing it have really surprised me.
Just as I don't want bible thumper types judging me and my choices, I am not judging this. It doesn't appear they politicized this event; they're sharing their story and their opinion. Sure I disagree with their views on right to life, but for anyone to criticize this very personal experience and how they handled it is the height of arrogant ignorance, imho.
I agree with the author of the OP: It's really one of those things that I don't believe anyone should be judging or ridiculing unless you've experienced the loss of a child.
I held my "rotting fetus" as one OP proclaimed -- because his skin had indeed started to decompose after only two days after his heartbeat stopped, before delivery -- and I did NOT want to let him go. I would have held him for a solid day and night if the hospital would have allowed.
If I would have had other children at the time, I would have encouraged (but not forced) them to see Joshua.
Grieving is a very individual process.
There are a ton of DUers being heartless shitheads about this.
I don't say this often or lightly, but unless you've experienced the birth and death of a child, I strongly advise people to shut the fuck up.
babylonsister
(171,094 posts)OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)And I'm sorry that you had to experience such heartbreak.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)for the kind words.
hlthe2b
(102,379 posts)One can speak to this pragmatically if you have never experienced it. For those who (sadly) HAVE, it is a far different matter.
I am sorry for your loss. I'm sorry for the pain you are re-experiencing from the insensitive discussions.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)RZM
(8,556 posts)I'm sorry for your loss and I applaud you for sharing this painful episode in an effort to make things better.
vankuria
(904 posts)I've been one of those people voicing my opinion and if I've offended you or anyone else my sincere apologies. And thank-you for sharing your personal story, it certainly gives this perspective and it probably wasn't an easy thing for you to share. That being said, I believe Rick Santorum opens himself up to criticism on this issue for a number of reasons and for me because he's made this story so public and even uses it in his campaign speeches. Mr. Santorum is the one putting this story out there every opportunity he has and by putting it into his presidential campaign it becomes fair game. I'm certainly not trying in any way to minimize the grief of having a baby die, but I find Mr. Santorum a hippocrate, thinking he's some kind of moral compass for everyone else, telling others how to live their lives, what to think, feel, etc. Whenever a pregnancy cannot continue to full term for whatever reason it is a private matter and Mr. Santorum has no right to sit in judgement of others. I think this is one of the reason this story has inflamed so many on DU.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)and the hypocrisy is what always gets to me as well.
It's fair to criticize his views and stance about issues, but for people to very specifically be ridiculing how the family personally handled this intimate event -- and to be doing so in such a callous manner -- is what I find so disturbing.
No, I hadn't noticed your posts about this, vankuria; I stopped reading early on.
But I hear you, and thank you for the reply.
Response to vankuria (Reply #12)
Bunny This message was self-deleted by its author.
hamsterjill
(15,224 posts)n/t
I totally agree. Santorum made this public for his own political gain, therefore, it is fair game in the political debate. He is using the issue to get sympathy votes from the pro-life crowd.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)it should be the last word here on the subject
sadly it will not be
easttexaslefty
(1,554 posts)Yes. We have no right to judge anyone else's grief.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)this places it into the public debate.
I'll agree that it is a touchy issue and should be dealt with as gently as possible but the fact that the Santorums aborted an "unborn child" needs to be part of the discussion.
The whole grotesque story about them bringing it home to meet the kids is something that should also be known. I think most people will be repulsed by this and presenting the truth about it isn't a problem.
Attacking them for it is different. The facts should simply be presented without commentary and let the voter make up his or her own mind.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)"The whole grotesque story about them bringing it home to meet the kids is something that should also be known. I think most people will be repulsed by this and presenting the truth about it isn't a problem."
It's a shame, if true, that most people would be repulsed.
I wonder if those same people are parents, and if they have ever experienced the death of a child.
Judging and attacking any hypocrisy is fair game. But the above two sentences show extreme insensitivity about the matter of death and loss in general, imho.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Taking home a *baby* that is d̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶ playing with the baby Jesus at Heaven's Gymboree is fucking NUTS
/rant
hamsterjill
(15,224 posts)And I, too, think that most people would be repulsed by the Santorums doing this.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)Santorum is vying for the position of President of The United States - one of the most powerful positions a person can be in, not just in this nation but in the entire world. That person's decisions will have very, very real consequences for most people living on the planet and so it is IMPERATIVE that all aspects of a person's mental health and decision making process be held up to the utmost scrutiny.
Sleeping with a dead fetus and bringing it home for your children to 'bond with' does NOT speak well of the man's decision making process. Or perhaps his mental health.