General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGovernor Northam owes it to Democratic voters of Virginia to enforce the law.
It looks like Governor Northam is preparing to do the right thing. He's increasing the corrections budget ahead of any possible confrontation with these outlaw sheriffs and officials who have created illegal so-called "Gun Sanctuaries" in parts of his state. These people are criminals and should go to jail.
This is a public safety issue that's of paramount importance. Innocent people are dying needlessly every day because certain elements in our society insist on clinging to a decidedly noxious and outdated pre-Georgian period gun culture.
Once that Orange IDIOT is removed in 11 months we'll hopefully see more decisive leadership nationwide on this vitally important issue. Until then, Governor Northam would do well to remember those Democratic voters in the great (and blue) state of Virginia who gave him the benefit of the doubt during his recent troubles. It is now incumbent upon him to merit that trust and forgiveness by not backing down to these lawbreakers.
MichMan
(11,938 posts)Should those public officials be prosecuted for not following the law?
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)Please see my reply to MichMan below. This is an outrageous comparison IMO.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)As you said...'in your opinion' it's outrageous....it's not in mine.
I find it very appropriate...
You didn't answer Mich....you "apples and oranges" 'd the question....a tactic I've seen for yrs....a poor 1 at that.
The 2ndA isn't a "law"....as you suggested..it's included in the BoR's...the 1st 10 Amendments..on purpose...
"The only thing that the two have in common is that the respective laws that have produced each are relics from another time...."
Congress passed immigration laws...that are being broken.....Congress didn't pass the 2nd Amendment
at140
(6,110 posts)The worst thing anyone can call me is a hypocrite. How is it right to selectively obey laws. I do not like wars, but I went and registered for the draft because it was the law. I still have my registration certificate.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)just saying...........
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)stopdiggin
(11,316 posts)one of those things where there"s "miles" of gray area. In (very) general terms, I think we have to concede that federal law supersedes state. State trumps county. County over local -- and on down. Next question -- are local officials responsible for enforcing federal and state law? And how about regulations? Codes? Probably yes to each, in theory -- but clearly there are exceptions. Cannabis?
Hardly the first time something like this has come up, and generally it gets "finessed" by the various levels of government.
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)That's an invidious comparison to say the least. One is a humanitarian crisis where the existing laws have failed, causing innocent people to suffer, including children being taken from their parents and locked in cages.
The other is the farthest thing from that. If anything, our ready access and worship of guns in this nation has itself created a humanitarian crisis.
The only thing that the two have in common is that the respective laws that have produced each are relics from another time and must be revised forthwith in order to save lives.
at140
(6,110 posts)their opinion of which law is fair or unfair? If everyone did that we would have a lawless society. Might as well fire the legislators.
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)I seem to recall finishing my post by asserting that laws pertaining to both are antiquated and must be revised in order to save lives. That's a far cry from the "If it feels good, do it" interpretation you chose to impose on my post.
at140
(6,110 posts)I apologize for reaching wrong conclusion. I agree that it is much better to work on changing unjust laws than just flouting them.
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)The Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights states:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
We constantly argue over the meaning of these words but it could be argued that legislation that is passed by a state has to comply with the Constitution and the amendments to that document. A state for example cant totally do away with freedom of speech or religion as covered by the First Amendment. Disagreements over laws that may violate the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are often settled by the Supreme Court. Thats were I see the legality of this legislation will be determined.
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)The federal government is welcome to use its own people and resources to enforce its laws. Local officials arent required to do so.
Here we are talking about state officials enforcing state laws.
Not the same at all.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)to be respecting it....they swore an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution right?(shh,Supremacy Clause)
marble falls
(57,104 posts)and laws to control firearms as long as those laws do not violate the 2nd amendment. If the state law is unconstitutional then why hasn't it been challenged?
Your attitude here seems more Republican than Democratic.
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)A) Theres nothing to enforce with respect to the 2nd amendment. Local officers simply have to not violate someones right.
B) Immigration laws must be actively enforced. Investigations are conducted. Peoples statuses are verified. Arrests are made. Local officers have no obligation to actively assist in enforcing federal law. That is the federal governments job.
Sewa
(1,256 posts)to decide what is constitutional. We have a court system to deal with such issues. It amazing how every gun advocate thinks theyre a constitutional expert
former9thward
(32,023 posts)They are county employees.
spin
(17,493 posts)I have known and been friends with a number of police officers over the years and I often have asked them what they would do if asked to confiscate the firearms of honest citizens.
Basically they told me they have enough problems with bad guys with guns and have no interest in having to take on armed citizens who have decided to not turn in their previously legal firearms.
I also have know a number of gun owners over the years. A fair number have told me they have buried caches of firearms and ammo as they feel eventually the government will try to confiscate them. Some are likely making up a story but not all.
At any rate passing a law requiring people to turn certain firearms in is fairly easy compared to how to enforce it in this nation.
Bettie
(16,110 posts)needs some serious help, in a psychological sense.
spin
(17,493 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)to the orange fascist. And what conservative means politically varies greatly.
I don't think you should assume that Trump out of office would change anything and that we should all remember the people of VA elected Northam, and no one else. This is still a democracy, the wishes of the people in the states still matter, and he is responsible to them. Not us.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)In that election only 47.5-6% of registered voters..voted.
Of that 47+%... the Gov. won 54%.......let's call it a 26-27% of registered voters voted for Gov. Northam.. not great #'s.
Not enough to criminalize a big part of Va.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)If you vote, even you don't believe what you say, so why say it?
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)I certainly do believe what I post....or I wouldn't post it.
marble falls
(57,104 posts)Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)different. in the case of sanctuary cities...they are defying a cruel federal law that they believe is federal intrusion into a state matter. It is not up to the states to enforce such laws-federal laws...up to the feds. And no state official can be forced to help them. In Virginia, it is a state matter...and only if a court decides to stop enforcement which I doubt will happen should the governor who has sworn to uphold the state constitution and state laws decline to enforce any state law.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)They are not raging in the streets, shooting up the neighborhood....just sitting at home and own a gun....that Gov. Northam and you don't approve of.
1st reply/question by MichMan...is very valid....can you answer it....tell why it's different?
Sewa
(1,256 posts)Doesnt seem that everyone is sitting at home peacefully with their guns.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)And we know the stats...a very large portion of gun deaths are suicide.
What's your point?
Sewa
(1,256 posts)But youre trying to change the subject.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)marble falls
(57,104 posts)let alone the fact that just like 'big gunz', big pharma sells their products in irresponsible ways. Have you been watching the news regarding the things that have been done to sell opiates? Its no different than sell an AR-15 as a "sporting" weapon.
I have the same rights as any gun owner to walk down the street in safety and my government has the obligation to protect me from public health and safety dangers and firearms are definitely that with gunshot being one of the largest single causes of death in children.
Gun laws the way they are do not meet the "well regulated militia" part of the 2nd amendment in any sort of way but that little clause makes it clear: that there should be laws and regulations to effect the "well regulated" part of our gun rights and that the states have the right to effect this.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)There's no BoR's protection for drug abuse....drugs period.
Let's game this out....thousands more each year...THOUSANDS more, die from drugs than guns of any form...that's a fact. Indisputable....you can't show me wrong....but I bet you are for legalization of drugs while also banning guns?
Am I wrong?
marble falls
(57,104 posts)the opiate corporations sold and manufactured those drugs in a fiction of providing medical treatment: is there a Constitutional right to medical treatment or even a right to be treated by a quack? Do you have a Constitutional right to beer and cigarettes? What happens to those rights when alcohol and cigarettes become a threat to public safety or public health? Why shouldn't firearms be legislated as a threat to public health and safety like cigarettes and alcohol?
Why don't I have the right to have my kids go to school safely just so you can have an AR-15?
onetexan
(13,043 posts)I will add one point: sporting goods aside, non-law enforcement citizens have no business carrying AR-15s & other semi-automatics/automatics. Only sporting weapons should be allowed, and with ownership proper regulation (background checks, age limit, etc). There should be zero tolerance laws of gun possession at the state level.
Kaleva
(36,309 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)Where are they coming from? Certainly not out of the thin air, right? And I doubt poor neighborhoods in Chicago, Detroit and Baltimore have a bevy of highly skilled gunsmiths just sitting around taking large orders.
No, the guns responsible for much of the carnage in our big cities are being funneled in from "gun country", states and counties as red as a bloody gauze. All the gun control laws in our cities don't amount to a hill of beans as long as guns can be easily obtained and resold on the black market from cow-tipping country.
Kaleva
(36,309 posts)No need to buy a gun on the black market that came from "cow-tipping country".
https://www.yellowpages.com/search-map/detroit-mi/gun-stores
And look at all the gun shops in the Newport News, VA. area which has a very high gun crime rate:
https://www.yellowpages.com/search-map?search_terms=gun+stores&geo_location_terms=Newport+News%2C+VA
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)None I know of ever paraded down city streets brandishing rifles and flying a Confederate flag.
The people who do so are a tiny minority of gun owners.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)i live in Florida and almost everybody I know owns firearms. Before I retired the majority of people I worked with in a high tech industry were gun owners. Many of those people I worked with had concealed weapons permits but were college educated professionals or graduates of technical schools. Most of my doctors were gun owners as were my bankers and attorneys. Many of these people are Democrats as Florida is a purple state.
You may live in a gun unfriendly state or city which may explain why you are unfamiliar with gun owners.
marble falls
(57,104 posts)I learned to shoot and use firearm safety from the NRA, I'm a vet, my dad was a vet and we hunted. Your generalization is BS.
spin
(17,493 posts)My argument is that I know a good number of gun owners who would never parade down a city street dressed in camouflage carrying assault rifles. The gun owners I know are peaceful and responsible citizens who respect others. They are not stereotype rednecks or white supremacists as often portrayed by gun control advocates. Many are well educated professionals.
I am a Vietnam Era vet who basically learned how to shoot in the service although I was stationed stateside during my entire enlistment as a member of the Aerospace Defense Command.
marble falls
(57,104 posts)One: that you're knowing a bunch of gun owners means you represent a majority of citizens in Florida.
Two: That gun owners in states with high gun ownership are all against gun control, or that only those in states with low gun owner ship or those with less experiance with firearms are for gun control.
The biggest thing I think you have wrong is assuming any experience with firearms means that that individual is a conscientious gunowner and that gun control violates the 2nd amendment.
spin
(17,493 posts)and know now own firearms. That is a simple fact. When I say most I mean 80%. Some only owned a rifle or a shotgun while others had extensive collections of firearms.
Obviously there are reasonable gun laws and I am not opposed to such legislation. I have few problems with the gun laws in Florida as in my opinion they are quite reasonable. Other gun owners I know also have few complaints although some would like to see open carry permitted.
I do oppose registration of firearms which is actually illegal in Florida and is in the state constitution.
The 2019 Florida Statutes
790.335?Prohibition of registration of firearms; electronic records.
(1)?LEGISLATIVE FINDINGS AND INTENT.
(a)?The Legislature finds and declares that:
1.?The right of individuals to keep and bear arms is guaranteed under both the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and s. 8, Art. I of the State Constitution.
2.?A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a law enforcement tool and can become an instrument for profiling, harassing, or abusing law-abiding citizens based on their choice to own a firearm and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution. Further, such a list, record, or registry has the potential to fall into the wrong hands and become a shopping list for thieves.
3.?A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a tool for fighting terrorism, but rather is an instrument that can be used as a means to profile innocent citizens and to harass and abuse American citizens based solely on their choice to own firearms and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution.
4.?Law-abiding firearm owners whose names have been illegally recorded in a list, record, or registry are entitled to redress.
(b)?The Legislature intends through the provisions of this section to:
1.?Protect the right of individuals to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under both the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and s. 8, Art. I of the State Constitution.
2.?Protect the privacy rights of law-abiding firearm owners.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.335.html
I have known several people from places like New York City. Since it is difficult and costly to legally own firearms these people were not familiar with gun owners and most had a stereotype view until they learned how common firearms are in Florida. Most obtained firearms and we used to go shooting at the range. That is why I made the comment about the poster possible living in a gun unfriendly state or city.
Of course most gun owners support fair and reasonable gun laws but many do not support confiscation of certain types of firearms such as assault rifles or semiautomatic firearms. Most of the gun owners I shot with on a regular basis were Republican. I was of course a registered Democrat and one other shooter was also. We used to take a lot of good natured razing.
In general when you consider how many people own firearms in this nation the percentage of people who misuse them is extremely low. One estimate is that 3 in 10 adults personally own firearms. In many cases the husband owns a firearms that his wife uses.
In Florida over 2,000,000 residents have a concealed weapons permit. In order to obtain that permit they have to have some firearms training. It is legal in Florida to carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a permit as long as it is securely encased (for example in a glove box). You would think that with that many guns in public or in cars we would have a serious problem with irresponsible gun owners but we dont.
Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services Division of Licensing
Concealed Weapon/Firearm License Holders by County as of November 30, 2019
https://www.fdacs.gov/content/download/7502/file/cw_active.pdf
WHERE CAN I KEEP MY GUN IN MY CAR?
This is a question commonly asked, but rarely able to be answered. You may keep, with or without a license, a firearm in your "private conveyance", otherwise known as a vehicle. Fl. Stat. s. 790.251(5) states "it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use." The important, and most often misunderstood, parts of this provision are the phrases "securely encased" and "not readily accessible". "Securely encased" means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; orin a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access. Fl. Stat. 790.001(17) (emphasis added). An important note in the list underlined previously is that whatever you keep your gun in it must be closed but not necessarily locked. Now, there is the second option of storing your gun in your vehicle where it is not "readily accessible for immediate use". "readily accessible for immediate use" is when "a firearm or other weapon is carried on the person or within such close proximity and in such a manner that it can be retrieved and used as easily and quickly as if carried on the person." Fl. Stat. 790.001(16). Keep in mind, this statute does not require you to carry your firearm securely encased and not readily accessible for immediate use; the statute states that either way is lawful. Also, if you do have a concealed carry license, remember, that you can carry it in any place but for those listed previously.
http://www.solerslacklaw.com/Criminal-Defense/Florida-Gun-Law.aspx#car
at140
(6,110 posts)I am as peaceful as it gets. I would never in a million years brandish the gun in public.
Actually I lead a staid and boring life, don't even experience the excitement of being stopped by a traffic cop for speeding. And by the way I have 2 college degrees including one at master's level from a big ten university.
spin
(17,493 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)with his wife, saw a skinny unarmed Black teen, grabbed his gun, stalked the unarmed kid, intimidated the kid, murdered him, and lied about it.
A gun or two at home for the few who hunt for food or home defense, are not a big issue. More gunz, coveting assault style weapons, strapping one or two on to walk down street, etc., are different.
spin
(17,493 posts)At 73 years old with a bad hip and back and a noticeable limp I am not going to be able to take on a much younger person in good physical condition. Since I stand out as a weak member of the herd I carry a legally concealed snub nosed revolver. The chances that I ever will have to use it are slim but it is there just in case.
at140
(6,110 posts)#1 I have 2 degrees in a curriculum where students dropout/flunkout at the highest rate...
mechanical engineering. I doubt if Zman could get through freshman year without flunking out.
My thesis for master's degree was in collaboration with NASA to determine the distortions in Satellite antennae due to subzero temps on one side and direct rays of sun on other side.
#2 I have never volunteered for patrolling the neighborhood.
#3 I am age 79, and bought my gun at age 75 for home defense only. I never take it out of the house except my yearly trip to the gun range to practice, where I can shoot inside a 6" circle into a target 30 feet away. At my age it would be difficult to overpower a young intruder.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)at140
(6,110 posts)it is a light weight hand gun yet lethal at close range.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)competition, etc. High percentage are exactly as described.
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)the blood red counties of Virginia, that's for sure. I know, I've seen them.
Kaleva
(36,309 posts)marble falls
(57,104 posts)Kaleva
(36,309 posts)Any sheriff who tries to enforce the law in those areas will probably be voted out next year and be replaced by new sheriff's who will ignore the law.
PghTiny
(276 posts)To remind the audience, he is a white-wing 'talk' radio screecher who spouts white supremacy and other right wing hate on shortwave radio and the Internet
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)I remember that idiot calling into to local radio talk shows here in NYC back in the 1990s. He was an avowed white supremacist an antisemite extraordinaire even then. He was also a government rat from what I recall, turning on his fellow Nazis to help save his own worthless hide.
Anything regarded as a "pet project" by that clown shoes prince should be automatically dismissed as useless.
Ex Lurker
(3,814 posts)Is that sheriffs and DAs dont work for him. He cant give them an order and fire them if they dont comply. Sheriffs decide every day how much emphasis to put on enforcing which laws, and DAs decide every day whether to prosecute a case or not.
About the only leverage he has are
1: have the attorney general prosecute for malfeasance. A drastic step and sure to be unpopular the locals who would make up a jury.
2: Support candidates who run against these incumbents. Again, this is likely to be of dubious success because these officials are doing the will of the majority of voters in their jurisdictions.
3. Use whatever power he has to withhold funds and otherwise make life unpleasant until they comply. This might have the best chance of success, at least in the short term, but at the risk of making him massively unpopular.
Northam is out on a limb here with no easy way to get off it. He's made some promises that he can't back down from without looking weak. But he doesnt have any way to follow through effectively in the face of massive local opposition. Using the state police and/or national guard should be a non starter. It would smack of tyranny and military occupation. And frankly, he ought to be just as concerned about THEIR willingness to enforce these laws.
58Sunliner
(4,386 posts)They are not right wingers, they are drug/gang/dispute related. Some are also robberies. Gun theft is also an issue.
At least 2 times a year you hear a story about a gun store being broken into. That's not usually right wingers either. Most gun related deaths in RVA are black on black crime, drive-bys and stray fire from a gunfight.
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)As I wrote upthread, unless there are thousands of skilled gunsmiths that we don't know about tucked away in places like Chicago, Baltimore and Detroit manufacturing entire arsenals, most of the guns being used in the street violence in our inner cities can only be coming one place and one place only- (R) gun country.
What's the point of mopping up the overflow caused by a constantly running faucet if the faucet isn't turned off? We need to stop this at its source.
58Sunliner
(4,386 posts)"thousands of skilled gunsmiths that we don't know about tucked away in places like Chicago, Baltimore and Detroit manufacturing entire arsenals, most of the guns being used in the street violence in our inner cities can only be coming one place and one place only- (R) gun country." Wrong about the origin only being R country. Read my post. And do you have actual facts to support the notion that thousands of gunsmiths manufacture street guns?
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)What I did write was "UNLESS there are thousands of gunsmiths tucked away in places like Chicago, etc" then the guns must be coming from (R) country, which they are. Please re-read my post.
You know, this is like the third time this week on DU someone has misquoted me to myself. I never have this problem on Twitter or elsewhere. Why is this a thing here?
hadEnuf
(2,194 posts)Kaleva
(36,309 posts)" Hey, I am honestly--and pleasantly--surprised at the push-back the OP T**t is getting."
"So far, after 60 some posts, it isnt as wild as I thought it would get."
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)The polar opposite of the malodorous echo chamber they ooze around in.
Kaleva
(36,309 posts)It can get messy and often heated here but we can learn from the open discussions and adapt. They cannot.
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)I think of that place as more of a collection pool for infectious runoff that otherwise might have ended up here. I'm assuming that's the only viable function it serves, unless my first guess about it being a tax write off is correct.
At any rate, I think we've given the six incel charity cases who still post there enough free publicity for one day.
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)What are there, six DImwits who still post there? I can't believe that site is operated by the same people who run this place. It must be some kind of a charitable tax deduction, or something.
hadEnuf
(2,194 posts)It's kind of perverted comedy relief watching the Klan Klowns and Neo-Nazis roll around in their own excrement and muck.