General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWow - NYT - wingnut Bret Stephens calls for impeachment and removal. Op Ed tonight
The United States Is Starting to Look Like Ukraine
Why the president must be impeached and removed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/opinion/trump-impeachment.html
Donald Trump ought to be impeached and removed from office. This isnt what I thought two months ago, when the impeachment inquiry began. I argued that the evidence fell short of the standards of a prosecutable criminal act. I also feared impeachment might ultimately help Trump politically, as it had helped Bill Clinton in 1998. That second worry might still prove true.
But if the congressional testimonies of Marie Yovanovitch, Bill Taylor, Gordon Sondland, Alexander Vindman and especially Fiona Hill make anything clear, its that the presidents highest crime isnt what he tried to do to, or with, Ukraine.
Its that hes attempting to turn the United States into Ukraine. The judgment Congress has to make is whether the American people should be willing, actively or passively, to go along with it.
snip
It doesnt, because weve been living in a country undergoing its own dismal process of Ukrainianization: of treating fictions as facts; and propaganda as journalism; and political opponents as criminals; and political offices as business ventures; and personal relatives as diplomatic representatives; and legal fixers as shadow cabinet members; and extortion as foreign policy; and toadyism as patriotism; and fellow citizens as human scum; and mortal enemies as long-lost friends and then acting as if all this is perfectly normal. This is more than a high crime. Its a clear and present danger to our security, institutions, and moral hygiene.
Its to the immense credit of ordinary Ukrainians that, in fighting Russian aggression in the field and fighting for better governance in Kyiv, they have shown themselves worthy of the worlds support. And its to the enduring shame of the Republican Party that they have been willing to debase our political standards to the old Ukrainian level just when Ukrainians are trying to rise to our former level.
The one way to stop this is to make every effort to remove Trump from office. It shouldnt have to wait a year.
elleng
(130,908 posts)and Peggy Noonan, and WHO ELSE???
greyl
(22,990 posts)NRaleighLiberal
(60,014 posts)Hamlette
(15,412 posts)Hermit-The-Prog
(33,346 posts)dweller
(23,632 posts)when he tweets by morning ?
🤔
✌🏼
UpInArms
(51,284 posts)She spent three years in prison before her release during the 2014 Maidan Revolution. Key to Yanukovychs efforts to discredit Tymoshenko was who else? Paul Manafort.
Lovely ... just ... lovely
stopdiggin
(11,308 posts)It is something that our political class (and general public to some extent) understood at a basic level once upon a time. We need to take a really close look at where we're heading here .. and that includes a lot of fellow travelers here on DU. This is dangerous ground.
genxlib
(5,527 posts)It leaves the Democrats unwilling to prosecute outgoing administrations.
It gets sticky when your political opponents actually are criminal
stopdiggin
(11,308 posts)but you better make damned sure you are prosecuting people for actual criminal acts. And not "political crimes" (like supposedly lying under oath, fighting a subpoena, fund raising, or policies that skirt legal morass) .. and therein lies the crux. Who determines these things? Even if we think a political act is wildly in error, perhaps even short of legal .. should that action result in people serving jail sentences? And would that be a good thing?
Should the people who instituted, and then enforced, the "separations" at our southern border face criminal charges? Should George Bush (and Colin Powell?) face criminal charges on the basis of initiating an "illegal war?" Should Obama be charged with acts of terror for the drone bombing of civilians in neutral territory? In each of these cases there are members of this community that would reply, "Absolutely .. Yes!" But the question remains .. would our country be better off for these prosecutions? And if each succeeding administration comes in with a portfolio of prosecutions for mistakes and misdeeds of the one that preceded it?
Politics has long been recognized as a messy (sometimes thuggish) business. It probably won't be be made any better, or cleaner, by attempts to criminalize it.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,346 posts)stopdiggin
(11,308 posts)history has given us illustration of some real disappointments along those lines. Starr was a political hack .. and eventually brought discredit on not only his "investigation" but also the process as a whole. And Mueller seemed to think he could do an "apolitical" job (perhaps the best we could expect under the circumstances) .. but in the process seemed to cowed by process, and the prospect of stepping on too many toes .. and in the end delivered a product that lent itself to minimal impact (and ultimately, import).
But, agreed .. even with shortcomings, either of the above is preferable to that of weaponizing the Justice department into "going after" your political foes. Better yet .. we should all just agree to the proposition that criminalizing the political opposition is generally very bad practice.
uponit7771
(90,339 posts)democrank
(11,094 posts)Indykatie
(3,696 posts)OliverQ
(3,363 posts)JudyM
(29,249 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)All it takes is one Republican to start it.
LittleBunny
(22 posts)He's written multiple articles opposing Trump from the time Trump announced his candidacy for president.
He's not "turning" on Trump. He's always been against Trump.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)She spent three years in prison before her release during the 2014 Maidan Revolution. Key to Yanukovychs efforts to discredit Tymoshenko was who else? Paul Manafort."
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)and lied about it. Americans knew impeachment was a political stunt. That was reflected in their continuing support
in polls.
Trump, otoh, has committed actual crimes and undermined our national security interest. These actions are not only worthy of impeachment (and removal), but specifically named (bribery, abuse of office, i.e., high crimes and misdemeanors) in the Constitution.
ProfessorGAC
(65,042 posts)...there was no cult following for Clinton. The viewing of impeachment was obviously a political stunt, as you said for most.
The american people, in general saw there was no there, there.
Here, we have a third of the people simply worship the DOLTUS! Facts don't matter, so the political risk may be higher.
Still the right thing to impeach, but politics are a bigger part of the equation than with Clinton, I think.
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)he still had the support of 24-25% of Americans. I believe that's the floor for conservatives/Rs. Further, if you look at the strongly approve numbers for Trump it's right in that mid-20s range. Those people aren't persuadable,
never have been and never will be. My working assumption is that about 1/3 of Americans are always going to vote/support Republicans/conservatives.