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babylonsister

(171,079 posts)
Sat Nov 9, 2019, 11:11 PM Nov 2019

Andrew Sullivan: This Is No Ordinary Impeachment

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/11/andrew-sullivan-this-is-no-ordinary-impeachment.html?fbclid=IwAR31kc870ZBhTMAwzegY7JUFpWOwRcILR2porhDerkETXtjzzOPhqKnjusE


Nov. 8, 2019
This Is No Ordinary Impeachment
By Andrew Sullivan
Photo: Saul Loeb/AFP via Getty Images


This is not just an impeachment. It’s the endgame for Trump’s relentless assault on the institutions, norms, and practices of America’s liberal democracy for the past three years. It’s also a deeper reckoning. It’s about whether the legitimacy of our entire system can last much longer without this man being removed from office.

snip//

Trump has fast-forwarded “regime cleavage.” He is appealing to the people to render him immune from constitutional constraints imposed by the representatives of the people. He has opened up not a divide between right and left so much as a divide over whether the American system of government is legitimate or illegitimate. And that is why I don’t want to defeat Trump in an election, because that would suggest that his assault on the truth, on the Constitution, and on the rule of law is just a set of policy decisions that we can, in time, reject. It creates a precedent for future presidents to assault the legitimacy of the American government, constrained only by their ability to win the next election. In fact, the only proper constitutional response to this abuse of executive power is impeachment. I know I’ve said this before. But on the eve of public hearings, it is vital to remember it.

None of this presidential behavior is tolerable. If the Senate exonerates Trump, it will not just enable the most lawless president in our history to even greater abuses. It will deepen the regime cleavage even further. It will cast into doubt the fairness of the upcoming election. It will foment the conspiracy theory that our current laws and institutions are manifestations of a “deep state” engineering a “coup.” It will prove that a president can indeed abuse his power for his personal advantage without consequence; and it will set a precedent that fundamentally changes the American system from a liberal democracy to a form of elected monarchy, above the other two branches of government.

I wish there were another way forward. But there isn’t. And this, though a moment of great danger, also contains the glimmers of renewal. Removing this petty, shabby tyrant from office goes a long way to restoring and resetting the Constitution as a limit on power and a guarantee against its wanton future abuse. It must be done. With speed, with vigor, and with determination.
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Andrew Sullivan: This Is No Ordinary Impeachment (Original Post) babylonsister Nov 2019 OP
AMEN ! magicarpet Nov 2019 #1
k&r n/t lordsummerisle Nov 2019 #2
K&R 2naSalit Nov 2019 #3
My nation could implode James48 Nov 2019 #4
Amen! kentuck Nov 2019 #5
I agree with him except the Republicans do not embrace this Jarqui Nov 2019 #6
Republicans must be voted out of every level of government. Beartracks Nov 2019 #17
Amen. Scarsdale Nov 2019 #20
I no longer believe in "good Republican people." CrispyQ Nov 2019 #24
Ditto. They have all had chances to do the right things and have chosen to stick with corruption. erronis Nov 2019 #27
The Republican Party is no better than tRump. diane in sf Nov 2019 #7
It isn't, and it'll be the same after Trump. For a half century, the GOP has been on a mission... Garrett78 Nov 2019 #12
Nice post! Poiuyt Nov 2019 #15
Thanks. Garrett78 Nov 2019 #16
K and R Quixote1818 Nov 2019 #8
REPUBLICANS pangaia Nov 2019 #9
Sweet!!Bookmarked this baby!! Pepsidog Nov 2019 #10
word LiberalLovinLug Nov 2019 #11
yes. I was going to post this same excerpt. scipan Nov 2019 #32
I hate that Trump is so fucking terrible that... jcgoldie Nov 2019 #13
I could listen to these Never Trumper types rail against him ALL DAY LONG. NCLefty Nov 2019 #18
Just what I was thinking. smirkymonkey Nov 2019 #26
hear hear! Grasswire2 Nov 2019 #14
The Rosenberg remedy is the best answer to this mess. LuvNewcastle Nov 2019 #38
Yep malaise Nov 2019 #19
Absolutely! "It must be done." pandr32 Nov 2019 #21
Yeah fuck Andrew Sullivan... Historic NY Nov 2019 #22
Correct Mickju Nov 2019 #31
The GOP gave us Trump and can't be separated from him dlk Nov 2019 #23
Indeed! sellitman Nov 2019 #25
If Trump isn't removed by the Senate, he'll commit even worse crimes than before sop Nov 2019 #28
He can be impeached multiple times. Garrett78 Nov 2019 #29
And the Senate would exonerate him multiple times, unless Democrats retake the Senate sop Nov 2019 #34
Kicked, recommended. Duppers Nov 2019 #30
Kickety...kick....kick N_E_1 for Tennis Nov 2019 #33
Then it needs to be fast. Faster. zentrum Nov 2019 #35
I question the assumption soldierant Nov 2019 #36
Kick and f'n Rec LiberalLovinLug Nov 2019 #37
And he must end up in jail after his crimes are tried and proven, for that not to happen Perseus Nov 2019 #39

Beartracks

(12,821 posts)
17. Republicans must be voted out of every level of government.
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 02:51 AM
Nov 2019

Sorry if you've got some good Republican people in your city or state, but the entire local-state-national structure of government must be rid of as many Republicans as possible to weaken their grip on the levers of power and minimize their self-righteous sense of entitlement. And remember: you don't vote against Republicans by not voting; you vote against Republicans by voting FOR Democrats.

Vote straight Dem tickets. Vote local, state, and federal. Vote every time.



========

CrispyQ

(36,492 posts)
24. I no longer believe in "good Republican people."
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 01:36 PM
Nov 2019

Anyone who still supports the Republican Party supports the disenfranchisement of millions of their fellow citizens just because we disagree with them. They are okay with stealing our votes, our voice, because we disagree with them. That's not good people in my book. I'm still polite to republicans I know, but I don't seek out their company & I look at them differently now.

erronis

(15,325 posts)
27. Ditto. They have all had chances to do the right things and have chosen to stick with corruption.
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 01:54 PM
Nov 2019

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
12. It isn't, and it'll be the same after Trump. For a half century, the GOP has been on a mission...
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 01:07 AM
Nov 2019

...to undermine or delegitimize government and all democratic institutions. For fuck's sake, that's what the Attorney General of the United States is doing by traveling the world to obfuscate and stir up conspiracy nonsense. It's what Bannon does when working for Donald Trump, Roy Moore, Marine Le Pen, and so on. "The commons" and "it takes a village" are phrases they despise.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid most people don't see the big picture. Our media and our schools are failing people. Plus, tens of millions of people are simply trying to get from one day to the next, or make ends meet.

Those clinging to a belief that many Republicans remain honorable or that they will act in good faith when Democrats attempt to compromise need to wake up to reality. Republicans, with few exceptions, are just awful people. They prosper thanks to an ignorant public and a tyranny of the minority political system.

Of course white nationalism, corporatism and anti-secularization dominates the Republican Party. That was a given after 50+ years of increasingly cruel and unhinged policy and rhetoric (and The Southern Strategy and The Powell Memo and Moral Majority). Someone like Trump was inevitable. A smarter version will come down the pike. We better be ready, and part of being ready means not letting these inevitable post-Trump narratives dominate:

1) Trump was a victim of the Deep State, evil Democrats and RINOs. That's what we'll hear from the likes of Gaetz.

2) Something akin to, "Republicans put country over party and did the right thing. Trump had gone too far and nobody is above the law. Everything is back to normal now and most Republicans are honorable civil servants."

There will also be some who sort of meld those narratives.

Those narratives are extremely dangerous. Whether or not either narrative dominates depends largely on how Democrats respond. Democrats will need to be vigilant in pushing back against those arguments. Dems (with every public appearance) must vociferously state that Trumpism, though we didn't call it that before Trump, is what made Trump possible, and not the other way around. Democrats and honest members of the media should make it crystal clear that 50+ years of increasingly cruel and unhinged rhetoric and policy created a monster. This is something about which the Never Trumpers are in denial, while worshiping at the alter of Saint Ronald Dog Whistle Reagan. That monster is the Republican Party and its base, as a whole. Trump is a symptom (i.e., he didn't happen in a vacuum) and Trumpism will live on after Trump. The GOP is not filled with people who simply have a different take on the role of the federal government or tax rates. It is filled with people who foment and exploit racism, sexism, heterosexism, xenophobia and a general ignorance. It is filled with people who have been actively working to undermine all democratic institutions. It is filled, quite simply, with horrible people.

If (big *IF*) Republicans remove Trump (by conviction or by talking him into resigning), it will be an act of self-preservation and nothing more. None of this "they did the right thing/put country over party/stood up for the law" bullshit. That party is ethically bankrupt. Period.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
9. REPUBLICANS
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 12:35 AM
Nov 2019

Please repeat over and over


REPUBLICANS
REPUBLICANS
REPUBLICANS
REPUBLICANS
REPUBLICANS
REPUBLICANS

LiberalLovinLug

(14,175 posts)
11. word
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 12:56 AM
Nov 2019

He says it better than I can, why we needed to impeach, now, and not wait for the 2020 election.


that is why I don’t want to defeat Trump in an election, because that would suggest that his assault on the truth, on the Constitution, and on the rule of law is just a set of policy decisions that we can, in time, reject.

jcgoldie

(11,636 posts)
13. I hate that Trump is so fucking terrible that...
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 01:12 AM
Nov 2019

... I perpetually find myself agreeing with assholes like Andrew Sullivan.

NCLefty

(3,678 posts)
18. I could listen to these Never Trumper types rail against him ALL DAY LONG.
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 04:08 AM
Nov 2019

They're so righteous and indignant at what he did to their party. Of course, their party was shitty for my entire life but still, in a way, I will miss them when things go back to normal...

Grasswire2

(13,571 posts)
14. hear hear!
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 01:17 AM
Nov 2019

Trumps must be rendered penniless and powerless, restricted from doing business and public life, assets seized.

Otherwise, he and his tribe will raise up a cult rebellion to seek revenge for him. You know they will.

The more strident and oppositional they get, the stronger argument they make for the Rosenberg remedy for treasonous acts.

dlk

(11,574 posts)
23. The GOP gave us Trump and can't be separated from him
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 01:21 PM
Nov 2019

They are one and the same in their continued threat to our democracy.

sop

(10,227 posts)
28. If Trump isn't removed by the Senate, he'll commit even worse crimes than before
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 02:33 PM
Nov 2019

If Trump felt any restraints before the impeachment, he won't hold anything back after he's found "not guilty" in the Senate. Imagine the kind of shit Trump would pull when he suddenly realizes no one can hold him accountable for worse crimes.

sop

(10,227 posts)
34. And the Senate would exonerate him multiple times, unless Democrats retake the Senate
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 05:56 PM
Nov 2019

Steve Schmidt, New York Magazine (October 26, 2019):

"But there’s certainly a scenario where Trump could be impeached, acquitted in the Senate, and reelected. And an impeached, acquitted, and then reelected Donald Trump is a Donald Trump without any constraints on him. I think that would be extremely dangerous. "

If this scenario occurs, Trump could literally do anything with complete impunity. Impeachment as a process to remove him would be dead.

soldierant

(6,905 posts)
36. I question the assumption
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 07:57 PM
Nov 2019

that any such thing as an "ordinary impeachment" exists in the first place.There have not been enough to determine what constitutes an "ordinary" one. (And I hope there never need to be enough to establish that.)

 

Perseus

(4,341 posts)
39. And he must end up in jail after his crimes are tried and proven, for that not to happen
Sun Nov 10, 2019, 08:44 PM
Nov 2019

would "again" tell the next crew of corrupt politicians (the young republicans), that it is OK to be corrupt, being in politics provides that latitude of action because you will be exempt from accountability.

I say "again" because I believe that is what happened after Obama said "let's move forward", it told the corrupt republicans that they could forge ahead, continue to try the system for their personal gain because Democrats will always "move forward", which is nothing but to say "Democrats will turn their heads the other way to allow and ignore the corruption.".

I voted twice for Obama, I believe him to be one of the best presidents this country has ever had, but I am aware that "moving forward" was his greatest mistake, and that is why I firmly believe that trump and his minions must face jail time, that includes his family, that all those investigations must continue after he is kicked out of office and prosecuted with the maximum strength of the law. For justice to fail to do that will be a big blow to the rule of law and our democracy.

They must not only be punished for the corruption and treasonous behaviour towards the country, but as a warning to anyone else who may have similar ideas.

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