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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAndrew Sullivan: This Is No Ordinary Impeachment
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/11/andrew-sullivan-this-is-no-ordinary-impeachment.html?fbclid=IwAR31kc870ZBhTMAwzegY7JUFpWOwRcILR2porhDerkETXtjzzOPhqKnjusENov. 8, 2019
This Is No Ordinary Impeachment
By Andrew Sullivan
Photo: Saul Loeb/AFP via Getty Images
This is not just an impeachment. Its the endgame for Trumps relentless assault on the institutions, norms, and practices of Americas liberal democracy for the past three years. Its also a deeper reckoning. Its about whether the legitimacy of our entire system can last much longer without this man being removed from office.
snip//
Trump has fast-forwarded regime cleavage. He is appealing to the people to render him immune from constitutional constraints imposed by the representatives of the people. He has opened up not a divide between right and left so much as a divide over whether the American system of government is legitimate or illegitimate. And that is why I dont want to defeat Trump in an election, because that would suggest that his assault on the truth, on the Constitution, and on the rule of law is just a set of policy decisions that we can, in time, reject. It creates a precedent for future presidents to assault the legitimacy of the American government, constrained only by their ability to win the next election. In fact, the only proper constitutional response to this abuse of executive power is impeachment. I know Ive said this before. But on the eve of public hearings, it is vital to remember it.
None of this presidential behavior is tolerable. If the Senate exonerates Trump, it will not just enable the most lawless president in our history to even greater abuses. It will deepen the regime cleavage even further. It will cast into doubt the fairness of the upcoming election. It will foment the conspiracy theory that our current laws and institutions are manifestations of a deep state engineering a coup. It will prove that a president can indeed abuse his power for his personal advantage without consequence; and it will set a precedent that fundamentally changes the American system from a liberal democracy to a form of elected monarchy, above the other two branches of government.
I wish there were another way forward. But there isnt. And this, though a moment of great danger, also contains the glimmers of renewal. Removing this petty, shabby tyrant from office goes a long way to restoring and resetting the Constitution as a limit on power and a guarantee against its wanton future abuse. It must be done. With speed, with vigor, and with determination.
magicarpet
(14,160 posts)lordsummerisle
(4,651 posts)2naSalit
(86,748 posts)James48
(4,438 posts)I love America. I want it to be great again. For REAL.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)The sooner the better.
Jarqui
(10,130 posts)so it is not going to happen any time soon
Beartracks
(12,821 posts)Sorry if you've got some good Republican people in your city or state, but the entire local-state-national structure of government must be rid of as many Republicans as possible to weaken their grip on the levers of power and minimize their self-righteous sense of entitlement. And remember: you don't vote against Republicans by not voting; you vote against Republicans by voting FOR Democrats.
Vote straight Dem tickets. Vote local, state, and federal. Vote every time.
========
Scarsdale
(9,426 posts)Wise words.
CrispyQ
(36,492 posts)Anyone who still supports the Republican Party supports the disenfranchisement of millions of their fellow citizens just because we disagree with them. They are okay with stealing our votes, our voice, because we disagree with them. That's not good people in my book. I'm still polite to republicans I know, but I don't seek out their company & I look at them differently now.
erronis
(15,325 posts)diane in sf
(3,917 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)...to undermine or delegitimize government and all democratic institutions. For fuck's sake, that's what the Attorney General of the United States is doing by traveling the world to obfuscate and stir up conspiracy nonsense. It's what Bannon does when working for Donald Trump, Roy Moore, Marine Le Pen, and so on. "The commons" and "it takes a village" are phrases they despise.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid most people don't see the big picture. Our media and our schools are failing people. Plus, tens of millions of people are simply trying to get from one day to the next, or make ends meet.
Those clinging to a belief that many Republicans remain honorable or that they will act in good faith when Democrats attempt to compromise need to wake up to reality. Republicans, with few exceptions, are just awful people. They prosper thanks to an ignorant public and a tyranny of the minority political system.
Of course white nationalism, corporatism and anti-secularization dominates the Republican Party. That was a given after 50+ years of increasingly cruel and unhinged policy and rhetoric (and The Southern Strategy and The Powell Memo and Moral Majority). Someone like Trump was inevitable. A smarter version will come down the pike. We better be ready, and part of being ready means not letting these inevitable post-Trump narratives dominate:
1) Trump was a victim of the Deep State, evil Democrats and RINOs. That's what we'll hear from the likes of Gaetz.
2) Something akin to, "Republicans put country over party and did the right thing. Trump had gone too far and nobody is above the law. Everything is back to normal now and most Republicans are honorable civil servants."
There will also be some who sort of meld those narratives.
Those narratives are extremely dangerous. Whether or not either narrative dominates depends largely on how Democrats respond. Democrats will need to be vigilant in pushing back against those arguments. Dems (with every public appearance) must vociferously state that Trumpism, though we didn't call it that before Trump, is what made Trump possible, and not the other way around. Democrats and honest members of the media should make it crystal clear that 50+ years of increasingly cruel and unhinged rhetoric and policy created a monster. This is something about which the Never Trumpers are in denial, while worshiping at the alter of Saint Ronald Dog Whistle Reagan. That monster is the Republican Party and its base, as a whole. Trump is a symptom (i.e., he didn't happen in a vacuum) and Trumpism will live on after Trump. The GOP is not filled with people who simply have a different take on the role of the federal government or tax rates. It is filled with people who foment and exploit racism, sexism, heterosexism, xenophobia and a general ignorance. It is filled with people who have been actively working to undermine all democratic institutions. It is filled, quite simply, with horrible people.
If (big *IF*) Republicans remove Trump (by conviction or by talking him into resigning), it will be an act of self-preservation and nothing more. None of this "they did the right thing/put country over party/stood up for the law" bullshit. That party is ethically bankrupt. Period.
Poiuyt
(18,129 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Quixote1818
(28,955 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)Please repeat over and over
REPUBLICANS
REPUBLICANS
REPUBLICANS
REPUBLICANS
REPUBLICANS
REPUBLICANS
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)LiberalLovinLug
(14,175 posts)He says it better than I can, why we needed to impeach, now, and not wait for the 2020 election.
that is why I dont want to defeat Trump in an election, because that would suggest that his assault on the truth, on the Constitution, and on the rule of law is just a set of policy decisions that we can, in time, reject.
scipan
(2,353 posts)jcgoldie
(11,636 posts)... I perpetually find myself agreeing with assholes like Andrew Sullivan.
NCLefty
(3,678 posts)They're so righteous and indignant at what he did to their party. Of course, their party was shitty for my entire life but still, in a way, I will miss them when things go back to normal...
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)But I'll be damned if he doesn't make perfect sense in this article.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)Trumps must be rendered penniless and powerless, restricted from doing business and public life, assets seized.
Otherwise, he and his tribe will raise up a cult rebellion to seek revenge for him. You know they will.
The more strident and oppositional they get, the stronger argument they make for the Rosenberg remedy for treasonous acts.
LuvNewcastle
(16,849 posts)He deserves it more than they did.
malaise
(269,153 posts)The elected enablers have to pay as well
pandr32
(11,601 posts)Historic NY
(37,452 posts)Mickju
(1,805 posts)He is no friend.
dlk
(11,574 posts)They are one and the same in their continued threat to our democracy.
sellitman
(11,607 posts)Thanks for posting.
sop
(10,227 posts)If Trump felt any restraints before the impeachment, he won't hold anything back after he's found "not guilty" in the Senate. Imagine the kind of shit Trump would pull when he suddenly realizes no one can hold him accountable for worse crimes.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)sop
(10,227 posts)Steve Schmidt, New York Magazine (October 26, 2019):
"But theres certainly a scenario where Trump could be impeached, acquitted in the Senate, and reelected. And an impeached, acquitted, and then reelected Donald Trump is a Donald Trump without any constraints on him. I think that would be extremely dangerous. "
If this scenario occurs, Trump could literally do anything with complete impunity. Impeachment as a process to remove him would be dead.
Duppers
(28,125 posts)N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,769 posts)zentrum
(9,865 posts)soldierant
(6,905 posts)that any such thing as an "ordinary impeachment" exists in the first place.There have not been enough to determine what constitutes an "ordinary" one. (And I hope there never need to be enough to establish that.)
LiberalLovinLug
(14,175 posts)This needs to be seen
Perseus
(4,341 posts)would "again" tell the next crew of corrupt politicians (the young republicans), that it is OK to be corrupt, being in politics provides that latitude of action because you will be exempt from accountability.
I say "again" because I believe that is what happened after Obama said "let's move forward", it told the corrupt republicans that they could forge ahead, continue to try the system for their personal gain because Democrats will always "move forward", which is nothing but to say "Democrats will turn their heads the other way to allow and ignore the corruption.".
I voted twice for Obama, I believe him to be one of the best presidents this country has ever had, but I am aware that "moving forward" was his greatest mistake, and that is why I firmly believe that trump and his minions must face jail time, that includes his family, that all those investigations must continue after he is kicked out of office and prosecuted with the maximum strength of the law. For justice to fail to do that will be a big blow to the rule of law and our democracy.
They must not only be punished for the corruption and treasonous behaviour towards the country, but as a warning to anyone else who may have similar ideas.