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Capitalism Didn't Make the iPhone, You iMbecile (Original Post) Yavin4 Nov 2019 OP
No, the technology was developed by our government and associated universities. SharonAnn Nov 2019 #1
DURec leftstreet Nov 2019 #2
Reading Michael Pollan's super interesting new book 'How to Change Your wiggs Nov 2019 #3
hits all of the things I've been telling people for decades. lapfog_1 Nov 2019 #4
Yes, but did you do it wearing a Black turtleneck and jeans and prance about a stage Yavin4 Nov 2019 #6
Jobs was one of the great "showmen" of the tech industry lapfog_1 Nov 2019 #9
Elizabeth Holmes, Silcon Valley Jobs' clone with black turtlenecks: scary appalachiablue Nov 2019 #17
capitalism has its advantages, but the mythology around it is naive at best, nuts at worst. unblock Nov 2019 #5
"what they're really doing is taking advantage of the government handing out ... Yavin4 Nov 2019 #7
Capitalism is inherently rather conservative... Wounded Bear Nov 2019 #18
The problem there is exploitation of the commons. unblock Nov 2019 #19
That is a huge part of the problem in all industries... Wounded Bear Nov 2019 #20
indeed, and partly why phrases like "carbon tax" are problematic unblock Nov 2019 #26
Thank you. N/t. okieinpain Nov 2019 #8
Ah! You beat me to it!! nt Guy Whitey Corngood Nov 2019 #10
We need a much better balance between public innovation and privatization dlk Nov 2019 #11
Well done. And not to forget... moondust Nov 2019 #12
WAR drives innovation in society, not ideology, been that way since the stone age Baclava Nov 2019 #13
Aviation Johnny2X2X Nov 2019 #14
Radar became microwave ovens, yeah, space race with Russia gave rise to modern society Baclava Nov 2019 #16
It took a lot of folks.... Thunderbeast Nov 2019 #15
Bell benefited from huge gov't/military contracts and cooperative ventures... Wounded Bear Nov 2019 #21
don't forget NASA! Hermit-The-Prog Nov 2019 #22
Whenever I see an old photo of Mission Control, I think Yavin4 Nov 2019 #25
sliderules rule! Hermit-The-Prog Nov 2019 #28
All true Thunderbeast Nov 2019 #23
I remember those days....nt Wounded Bear Nov 2019 #24
"I'd like to make a long distance call" Baclava Nov 2019 #27
The only people paying big money for calls Thunderbeast Nov 2019 #29

SharonAnn

(13,778 posts)
1. No, the technology was developed by our government and associated universities.
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 12:09 PM
Nov 2019

I worked with some of it in it's early years. ARPA, DARPA, etc.

wiggs

(7,817 posts)
3. Reading Michael Pollan's super interesting new book 'How to Change Your
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 12:18 PM
Nov 2019

Mind'. The role of psychedelics in the tech boom can't be overlooked. Another one of many reasons why capitalism is not solely responsible for computers and smart phones.

lapfog_1

(29,226 posts)
4. hits all of the things I've been telling people for decades.
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 12:22 PM
Nov 2019

As a college undergrad I wrote some of the code that ran the little computer that appears at 2:20 into this video... the IMP or Interface Message Processor... IMPs were essential in the Arpanet as they translated from machine type to machine type (mainframes of that era used wildly different character sets, different binary word lengths, and even different binary math.

Later, at NASA in the 1990s, I directed 100s of thousands of your taxpayer dollars in to university research projects... like Redundant Arrays of Inexpensive Disks or RAIDs (almost all of the current Internet is stored first on RAID storage systems or their offshoots like Erasure Coded Object Stores).

Government funding of basic research into technology is essential to building the products in the future.

Yavin4

(35,446 posts)
6. Yes, but did you do it wearing a Black turtleneck and jeans and prance about a stage
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 12:30 PM
Nov 2019

telling people that you are a genius?

lapfog_1

(29,226 posts)
9. Jobs was one of the great "showmen" of the tech industry
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 12:47 PM
Nov 2019

And I've bought my fair share of Macs and Ipods and Iphones (but no Lisa or Newton... not everything Apple did was even decent).

I don't know if I am a true genius... in certain areas I have been acclaimed as such... and I have decent IQ scores and patents and grades. But then I've met true geniuses... and I've met both Jobs and Wozniak and Larry Ellison (Oracle)... and, while the latter group are very smart, they don't match up in the genius department with some of the true geniuses (Richard Feynman for example... I had the privilege of meeting him in 1988 just before he passed away).

No black turtlenecks... but I do wear jeans... mostly.

unblock

(52,328 posts)
5. capitalism has its advantages, but the mythology around it is naive at best, nuts at worst.
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 12:28 PM
Nov 2019

it's certainly possible, in some cases, that capitalism's incentives encourage people to work hard for the betterment of society, and get a reasonable reward for doing so.

in practice, in many cases, capitalism's incentives simply encourage people to be greedy. *one* way to act on that greed is to work hard for the betterment of society, but without careful and constant regulation and other governmental actions to align incentives with social betterment, it is often possible to take advantage of various points where the reward is larger than the contribution to the betterment of society.


among the problems is that capitalism doesn't provide a particular incentive for private entities to improve the commons. this is left to the government. so things like basic inventions and fundamental intellectual breakthroughs often don't happen at private companies, as these days it requires massive investment with uncertain outcomes, especially as the intellectual breakthrough may be years ahead of a real profit opportunity that comes from bringing that advance to market.

so the government make many advances through programs like the manhattan project, the space program, and early internet research and development (darpa and mostly public universities, although some private universities we part of it as well).

after these great ideas and intellectual advances our public, along come companies to convert those new ideas and technologies into products for profit.

what they're really doing is taking advantage of the government handing out those intellectual goodies for free to companies eager to take advantage of them. imagine how much profit they would make if they had to pay the government a reasonable price for use of those ideas, which would have been patented had they been developed privately? sure, they're adding value and deserve a profit for innovating those products into the market, but essentially the government taxed the rest of us to do all the research to create patent-worthy ideas, but then handed the profit *we* should be earning from doing so over to these businesses.


i'm not necessarily saying the government should have kept these advances secret, or should be charging businesses for such things, but i am saying that it pisses me off when businesses go around claiming that they invented all this stuff and shouldn't have to pay taxes and all that, because a lot of these companies wouldn't exist at all, or wouldn't be anything near as profitable, without government investment and effective intellectual giveaways.






Yavin4

(35,446 posts)
7. "what they're really doing is taking advantage of the government handing out ...
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 12:34 PM
Nov 2019

...those intellectual goodies for free to companies eager to take advantage of them."

To put it more succinctly, socializing costs. privatizing profits, use the media to manipulate the public, and finally, buy off politicians to safeguard your wealth from taxes and de-regulate your business model.

Genius, I tells ya!

Wounded Bear

(58,713 posts)
18. Capitalism is inherently rather conservative...
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 03:07 PM
Nov 2019

and doesn't really like to take technological risks. They definitely will fight against any technology that threatens their cash cows. Witness the fighting over the oil industry. We basically have the technology to drastically reduce society's carbon footprint now, but the financial interests are still hanging on to the established fossil fuel based "solutions." And, since money is power, they have the political power to force others to follow their dictates.

unblock

(52,328 posts)
19. The problem there is exploitation of the commons.
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 03:19 PM
Nov 2019

The oil companies make an outsized profit in part because they don't pay the full cost of pollution. That's spread around the globe.

Economists call this an externality. Capitalism l, to work properly and to have all the desirable effects, relies on the participants in economic transaction paying all the relevant costs of that transaction.

To the extent they can foist some costs on employees or local residents, e.g., they profit unfairly. This encourages them to engage in transactions that may even be of negative overall value.

If I profit $1 by selling you something, and you profit because it's worth $1 more to you than the price of it, then we've net gained $2. Society wins if that's the end of the story. If, however, the medical costs to local residents of the pollution associated with that transaction is $3, then overall we've made society worse.

Wounded Bear

(58,713 posts)
20. That is a huge part of the problem in all industries...
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 03:22 PM
Nov 2019

and is why capitalism needs to be regulated and externalities accounted for. When capitalists are making obscene profits while poisoning the environment, shit needs changing.

unblock

(52,328 posts)
26. indeed, and partly why phrases like "carbon tax" are problematic
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 03:58 PM
Nov 2019

making those engaging in greenhouse gas-generating transactions pay something to offset the social cost of polluting greenhouse gasses is not a "tax". that's simply internalizing the externality. making the participants in the transaction pay the full cost of the transaction instead of letting them get away with imposing external costs on people who didn't consent to the transaction and who don't benefit from it.

i'm never going to beat "carbon tax" for curtness, but something like "carbon cost recapture" might be more accurate.

dlk

(11,578 posts)
11. We need a much better balance between public innovation and privatization
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 01:04 PM
Nov 2019

Currently, the scales are tipped too far toward the capitalism side, to the detriment of taxpayers and consumers.

moondust

(20,006 posts)
12. Well done. And not to forget...
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 02:14 PM
Nov 2019

who was the first human in space?
.
.
.
Yuri Alekseyevich Gagarin was a Soviet Air Forces pilot and cosmonaut who became the first human to journey into outer space...

Fake news!!! Probably the work of capitalists working in secret and communists taking the credit for it!

What about the Boeing 737 Max and the space shuttle Challenger and the Ford Pinto and...? The greed incentive may have some downsides as well.

 

Baclava

(12,047 posts)
13. WAR drives innovation in society, not ideology, been that way since the stone age
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 02:26 PM
Nov 2019

Last edited Thu Nov 7, 2019, 03:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Galileo improved the spyglass/telescope for war money from the Navy

Nazi V2 rockets to the moon

Satellite technology,GPS were needed for spying on enemies from space, so, war concerns invented cell phones


Yeah, like that

Johnny2X2X

(19,114 posts)
14. Aviation
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 02:35 PM
Nov 2019

Trying to be able to put electronic devises onto early war planes drove a lot of technology. Shrinking radios down was needed to keep the weight low.

Delivering ordinance to its target was one of the first applications for computers.

 

Baclava

(12,047 posts)
16. Radar became microwave ovens, yeah, space race with Russia gave rise to modern society
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 02:59 PM
Nov 2019

Tubes and wires into transistors and semiconductors, miniaturization has been the key to just about everything

Thunderbeast

(3,419 posts)
15. It took a lot of folks....
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 02:56 PM
Nov 2019

I would suggest that the core technologies for the iphone came from Bell Laboratories.

Some core elements are:

Cellular telephony
Unix Operating Systen
C Programming language
Optical fiber transmission
Digital packet switching
Solid state electronics

Wounded Bear

(58,713 posts)
21. Bell benefited from huge gov't/military contracts and cooperative ventures...
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 03:26 PM
Nov 2019

starting in WWI and really expanding in WWII, when the technology of military weapons and equipment really took off.

Just saying.

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,430 posts)
22. don't forget NASA!
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 03:32 PM
Nov 2019

Even silicone rubber seals and caulking came from the need for a sealant that could withstand the environment of space.

That guy on tv with the cannonballed boat couldn't seal it without NASA, and we wouldn't see it on flat screen tvs without NASA.

Yavin4

(35,446 posts)
25. Whenever I see an old photo of Mission Control, I think
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 03:48 PM
Nov 2019

None of these people in that room grew up with any kind of computer in their house, and probably didn't even see and use one until they got to college, if then.

Thunderbeast

(3,419 posts)
23. All true
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 03:38 PM
Nov 2019

That, and a regulated monopoly that channeled artificially high phone rates to pay for basic research.

A telephone call outside of your home town used to be a luxury that many homes could not afford.

Thunderbeast

(3,419 posts)
29. The only people paying big money for calls
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 09:57 PM
Nov 2019

are inmates who are being exploited by the prison-industrial complex. This is a scandal.

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