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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOn the Political Context of the Charges against Julian Assange
An article in The Nation by Joann Wypijewski, titled "Justice Foreclosed", explains better than anything Ive read why Julian Assange shouldnt give himself up to let justice work its course. From the second paragraph of Justice Foreclosed:
The political context
After noting (accurately in my opinion) that the law is no more likely to deliver justice to Assange in his rape case than it was to a black man charged with raping a white woman in the Jim Crow South, Wypijewski continues:
By that August, Pfc. Bradley Manning, the reputed source of the video and about 750,000 other leaked government documents, was being held without charge in solitary confinement at the Marine Corps brig in Quantico, subjected to what his attorney, David Coombs, describes in harrowing detail in a recent motion as unlawful pretrial punishment. In plain terms, Manning was tortured. He faces court-martial for aiding the enemy and has been denounced as a traitor by members of Congress. For disseminating classified materials that exposed war crimes, Assange has been called a terrorist. A coloring book for children, The True Faces of EvilTerror includes his face on a sheet of detachable trading cards, along with Timothy McVeigh, Jared Lee Loughner, Ted Kaczynski A commentator on Fox News urged President Obama to order his assassination. Vice President Joe Biden called him a high-tech terrorist and suggested that the Justice Department might be angling for a prosecution.
Julian Assange a terrorist? If hes a terrorist, then I guess I am too, because if I had access to the material he had, and if I had the courage to release it, I would do so in a heartbeat. If Assange is a terrorist, then I guess that so are all journalists who release information on war crimes committed by the state.
On the murkiness of the rape charges
Like just about everyone else, I dont know what the truth is surrounding the rape charges against Assange. What I do know is that the circumstances of those charges seem very suspicious. Wypijewski describes some of those circumstances:
On the presumption of innocence
Wypijewski notes that a big reason why some liberals are not supporting Assange in his refusal to face charges is that they involve rape. And in those cases, it is the presumption of guilt that works against their supporting him. I see it slightly differently. If the presumption of guilt is the reason why a liberal does not support him, then that person is not really a liberal at least not in the way s/he looks at this case. There are few things that are more fundamental to liberalism than the presumption of innocence in criminal cases. Wypijewski explains:
On what Assange faces if he gives himself up
Lastly is the issue of what Assange is likely to face if he gives himself up:
For those of you who criticize Assange or call him a coward because of his refusal to give himself up to justice, I ask you to consider: Would you give yourself up if you faced a likelihood of indefinite detention without trial and torture?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Assange going to a Swedish court, while facing the danger of getting black-bagged, makes about as much sense...
as a civil rights worker expecting justice from Bull Connor.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)I was wondering when s4p would start demanding that the two members of Pussy Riot who fled from Russia return to face "justice"?
I just want to see some consistency.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)That's DIFFERENT!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Very telling.
Since this is ALL about "justice"! doncha know.....
Canuckistanian
(42,290 posts)All it would take is for Assange to get immunity from extraditon from Sweden. After that, I'm sure he'd have no problems cooperating.
I'm dismayed that people don't see this.
The deck is stacked against justice.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)If I ever travel through that area again...
I'm calling him ahead of time, and faxing him a full dossier on myself.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)instead of being extradited to Vermont.
UK'll happily cooperate with your theoretical "black-bag" operation. But Assange fought really hard to stay in the UK.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)He's under threat of immediate arrest. Sweden's not offering any sort of safety guarantees about non-extradition.
If the USA gets hold of him, he's gone.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The UK will happily do to Assange whatever you think Sweden will do. FFS, the UK invaded Iraq with us and they knew we were lying about it. If they'll do that, what makes you think they wouldn't do something extra-judicial with Assange?
Fortunately for Assange, he hasn't broken any US laws. So he can't be extradited - the US would have to charge him with something.
Why would a non-extradition promise matter when they aren't following any legal process when handing Assange over to the US? They'll break their own laws, but not break their word?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Or his 16 year old American son?
Cause you insist the US would have had to have charged him with something before we EXECUTED him. Can you point me to his legal proceedings?
Thanks
jeff47
(26,549 posts)He died due to our undeclared war in Yemen. We're fighting on one side of a cold civil war. It's undeclared, because that would cause public opinion in Yemen to flock to the other side....opinion's currently sauntering instead of flocking.
But back to your argument - why is Assange alive then?
According to you, the US wants Assange dead. And the US will kill anyone, anywhere. So why's Assange alive? He didn't have any security to speak of. He's spent the years after Manning's leaks in our closest allies. In Yemen, we have to invade their airspace to kill Al Awlaki, whereas a friendly country would make such an operation much easier.
So if what you claim is true, why is Assange still breathing?
Time for change
(13,718 posts)If they step over the line they might provoke a public outcry. Assange is very well known. An assassination of him would receive wide coverage.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Time for change
(13,718 posts)You really can't see why their assassination was not likely to spark as much outrage as the assassination of Assange?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)with Assange's supporters?
Time for change
(13,718 posts)It's a question of what is thought to be politically problematic.
I think it's very naive to believe that it would be unthinkable for our government to arrest and indefinitely detain Assange without trial, when its history makes it very clear that such things are not unthinkable, when a Grand Jury is actively considering the matter, and when our VP has publicly referred to him as a terrorist. To bring up the fact that he's alive as proof that our government has no intention of arresting and detaining him is just ridiculous.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Then why hasn't he been arrested or killed yet? There's no reason to wait for Sweden if you're not going to be following the law.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)my time talking to you any more.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)It means the US is a rogue state that doesn't follow the laws (and the WOT is a pretty despicable use of the word "war" .
Yet you continue to insist that in THIS case - the Assange case - the US (and Sweden and the UK etc. etc.) are going to studiously observe the legalities.
My point was that the US has no qualms executing people summarily. Even torture and extra judicial renditions are part of Obama's MO. Assange is correct in fearing that the legalities will somehow be laid aside for him as well, especially as top US officials have said as much. Stuffing him into Gitmo as an enemy combatant would do nicely. It doesn't have to be assassination for Assange but the US has demonstrated that even THAT isn't off the table.
This isn't about assassination per se (although I used that example since we all know it) but it can include anything else up to and including that. Obama's already demonstrated he's game.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Please cite where we give trials before killing someone in a war.
And they haven't executed Assange because.......?
And they haven't done this already because........?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Do you know the timetable for the next extra judicial action that Obama's going to take, or where it will take place or who it will be aimed at? Are you privy to the extra judicial machinations of the international power players? Why did Obama wait so long before he executed Al Awlaki but kill his son almost immediately afterwards? Why does he let some prisoners go from Gitmo and not others? That Obama has his extra judicial "hit list" is a known fact.
I'm not privy to those kinds of decisions but they're being made nonetheless, without regard to international law. Exactly what punitive measures any "enemy of the state" will receive is entirely in their hands and presumably runs the full gamut of potentiality.
You continue to parrot that the US and Sweden and the UK have some kind of obligation to follow the legalities as outlined in international law. They don't.
You and I know that. Assange knows that. The Ecuadoreans know that. Pretty much everyone on the face of the planet knows that. Top US officials have made extremely prejudicial statements about Assange which don't take a rocket scientist to interpret (unless of course one is being deliberately obtuse and willfully blind).
Time for change
(13,718 posts)My patience with these people is waning. I think your last statement says it all, and the only explanation is that they ARE deliberately obtuse and willfully blind.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)There is no indictment in the U.S.
The accusation in the article is that there might be.
That is called a conspiracy theory.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)and suggested that the Justice Department might prosecute him.
http://www.thenation.com/article/169632/julian-assange-justice-foreclosed#
Considering what they've done to Bradley Manning, it's not difficult to believe at all that he would be prosecuted by the U.S. government.
The Obama administration has prosecuted more whilstleblowers under the Espionage Act than all other previous administrations combined:
http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2012/01/six-americans-obama-and-holder-charged-under-the-espionage-act-and-one-bonus-whistleblower.html
And it wouldn't take a "conspiracy" to prosecute him. If the Justice Department decides that's what they want to do, they will try to do it.
struggle4progress
(118,320 posts)You might want to read that several times. Biden gets to preside over the Senate, but he can't even vote except when there's a tie
So whatever Biden thought about Assange, it wouldn't matter, because he can't do diddly
Time for change
(13,718 posts)He didn't just think that about Assange, he said it on national TV?
If the president didn't agree with it, he could have said something.
struggle4progress
(118,320 posts)When he was asked his opinion, he gave it: I would argue that it's closer to being a high tech terrorist than, than the Pentagon Papers
... MR. GREGORY: Do you think he's a criminal?
VICE PRES. BIDEN: If he conspired to get these classified documents with a member of the U.S. military , that's fundamentally different than if somebody drops on your lap, "Here, David , you're a press person, here is classified material."
MR. GREGORY: Mitch McConnell says he's a high tech terrorist, others say this is akin to the Pentagon Papers . Where do you come down?
VICE PRES. BIDEN: I would argue that it's closer to being a high tech terrorist than, than the Pentagon Papers . But look, this guy has, has done things that have damaged and, and put into jeopardy the lives and, and occupations of people in other parts of the world. He's made it more difficult for us to conduct our, our business with our allies and our friends. For example, in my meetings, you know I meet with most of these world leaders , there is a desire now to meet with me alone rather than have staff in the room. It makes things more cumbersome. And so it is, it has done damage ...
Meet the Press transcript for Dec. 19, 2010
Joe Biden, Cory Booker, Mark McKinnon, Andrea Mitchell, Joe Scarborough
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40720643/ns/meet_the_press-transcripts/t/meet-press-transcript-dec/
Time for change
(13,718 posts)I think that if Obama disagreed with Biden's characterization he should have publicly said so.
Furthermore, given the Obama administration's treatment of whistleblowers and its history of indefinite detention without trial, Biden's words on this subject strongly suggest to me that Assange would be in substantial danger if he turned himself in to Swedish authorities.
An lastly, Assange agreed to turn himself in if Obama would guarantee him that he wouldn't be arrested by the U.S. government. If the Obama administration has no intention of arresting him, why couldn't they give that guarantee? It would serve the cause of Swedish justice to let him have his rape trial.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)he previously served on the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Foreign Relations Committee, and the Select Committee on Intelligence, so I'm sure his opinions are greatly valued. There are recent reports that "Administration officials remain divided over the wisdom of prosecuting Assange," so it's possible that Biden is on one side and Obama on the other.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)U.N. black helicopters, or Oh-My-God-the-US-Is-Sending-Assange-To-Gitmo....
When real evidence of a indictment is provided, I'll re-evaluate.
Otherwise, it is just another crazy, tinfoil hat conspiracy.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)There is broad scientific evidence to support global warming and evolution.
You want to associate your anti-Assange opinions with these evidence-based theories, but the evidence in this case is on Assange's side.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)While in England, had the U.S. had an indictment, they could have requested it from the Government. We have an extradition agreement with them. A request was never made.
Show me an indictment and I will reconsider. But there is not a shred of evidence that the U.S. has one, and they did not try to extradite him when he was held by a friendly country.
It is a conspiracy theory.
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)There really are conspiracies.
There is ample evidence that our government is waging a war on whistle blowers and that powerful individuals within our government would like to get revenge against Assange. There is also ample evidence that Manning was tortured. Assange was wise to seek asylum.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)whistler162
(11,155 posts)in Sweden and would have faced additional questioning by this time.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)Because the U.S. has held absolutely no noncitizens in custody without charges in the past decade...
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)is the political nature of any potential charges against Assange, be they rape, espionage, cybercrime, or terrorism. Sweden in particular seems to be avoiding this.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Assange didn't break any US laws. Publishing classified information that was leaked to you is legal, and protected by the first amendment. The SCOTUS explicitly ruled so in the case surrounding the Pentagon Papers.
So if this author can't even bother to get that rather important fact correct, what's the reason to keep reading their thoughts on "context"? They threw away the context in the second paragraph.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)Today's SCOTUS is very different than the one that ruled on the Pentagon Papers case, and they haven't shown much tendency to go according to precedence.
The Obama administration has prosecuted 6 people on the Espionage Act of 1918 -- twice as many as all previous U.S. administrations combined. Apparently they have a different interpretation of that law.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)And there can't be a case without an extradition. And there can't be an extradition under yesterday's rulings.
That would be relevant if you could show that these specific prosecutions are somehow different. The quantity itself is not evidence of anything different - with so few cases (even under the Obama administration) statistical noise is going to be very loud.
Since there's only 6 cases, surely you can show us how those prosecutions were handled differently than previous cases.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)The legal niceties appear to be only convenient whenever Obama says they're convenient....
jeff47
(26,549 posts)If Obama can execute anyone, anywhere, and he wanted Assange dead, then Assange would be dead.
Btw, there's no special magic to being an American citizen. We don't get any special due process rights by being citizens.
ETA: The Bush administration tried to pretend being a citizen somehow made a difference when they were stomping all over due process with Gitmo. But that wasn't backed up by anything in the law.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Obama has shown himself to be a player in the rogue state game. Nothing is off the table and if you believe the US is going to suddenly show themselves to be the paragon of international virtue, I've got a bridge to sell you.
This isn't about what the US can or cannot do "legally" in regards to extradition - they don't care about the law. My examples are proof of that.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)If Obama can seize anyone, anywhere and throw them in jail forever, how come he hasn't done so with Assange?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Do you know the timetable for the next extra judicial action that Obama's going to take, or where it will take place or who it will be aimed at? Are you privy to the extra judicial machinations of the international power players? Why did Obama wait so long before he executed Al Awlaki but kill his son almost immediately afterwards? Why does he let some prisoners go from Gitmo and not others? That Obama has his extra judicial "hit list" is a known fact.
I'm not privy to those kinds of decisions but they're being made nonetheless, without regard to international law. Exactly what punitive measures any "enemy of the state" will receive is entirely in their hands and presumably runs the full gamut of potentiality.
You continue to parrot that the US and Sweden and the UK have some kind of obligation to follow the legalities as outlined in international law. They don't.
You and I know that. Assange knows that. The Ecuadoreans know that. Pretty much everyone on the face of the planet knows that. Top US officials have made extremely prejudicial statements about Assange which don't take a rocket scientist to interpret (unless of course one is being deliberately obtuse and willfully blind).
jeff47
(26,549 posts)You're the one that decided to reply to every single one of my posts.
So you don't know, you're just absolutely sure that it's gonna happen any time now.
Will it happen before or after the rapture? That's supposed to arrive any time now too.
You are saying this in response to a post where I'm talking about the US not following international law.
Saying something nasty about someone doesn't mean you can actually do anything to them.
What you are desperately avoiding discussing is the question I keep asking you. Why are they waiting? What possible reason do they have to wait for Sweden when Assange has been hanging out in our closest allies?
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)You don't get the whole 'tyranny' thing, do you?
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Time for change
(13,718 posts)Now, The Saturday Age, based in Australia, has published a report that features some critical details on the United States governments plans for Assange. It describes Australian Foreign Affairs Department documents that were obtained under freedom of information laws and show the Australian diplomatic service takes seriously the likelihood that Assange will eventually be extradited to the US on charges arising from WikiLeaks obtaining leaked US military and diplomatic documents. Australias ambassador to the US Kim Beazley sought high-level US advice on the direction and likely outcome of the investigation and reiterated an Australian government request for early advice of any decision to indict or seek extradition of Assange.
The diplomatic cables identify a wide range of criminal charges the US could bring against Assange, including espionage, conspiracy, unlawful access to classified information and computer fraud. They indicate Australian diplomats expect that any charges against Assange would be carefully drawn in an effort to avoid conflict with the First Amendment free speech provisions of the US constitution.
Additionally, Australian diplomats have apparently been informed of several connections between Manning and WikiLeaks, which prosecutors have uncovered that would form the basis of a conspiracy charge. The diplomats have found any investigation would target the founders, owners or managers of WikiLeaks for espionage.
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/08/17/julian-assanges-fears-about-extradition-to-the-united-states-affirmed/
Whether someone in the Justice Dept. made a statement on the matter is not very relevant. They probably aren't eager to call attention to this.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)This is what a government thinks, an opinion, there is no document, not indictment, nothing.
There are no charges. No attempt has been made to extradite him.
This is a conspiracy theory.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)That's a fact. We are a rogue state with enough war crimes, renditions, prisoners held at Gitmo without due process, extrajudicial assassinations and "hit lists" drawn up by Obama himself to prove it.
The assassination of Al Awlaki and his 16 year old son are not "conspiracy theories". They are the murder of American citizens without a trial, jury or conviction. How many prisoners at Gitmo do you need to "prove" that Obama cares about the legalities or are all of those people just a 'conspiracy theory"?
Time for change
(13,718 posts)It seems clear that you use the phrase "conspiracy theory" to show contempt for any idea that hasn't been formally endorsed by our government -- as if you see something terribly wrong with considering any action or idea that shows our government in a bad light, and yet isn't formally endorsed by the government. It's people like you who pave the way to tyranny. But of course talking about even the possibility of tyranny in this country is "conspiracy theory" because the government hasn't acknowledged it.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)According to this report:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/22/us-wikileaks-assange-usa-idUSBRE87L12W20120822
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)"The lives of people who work for the American people has been put at risk; the American people themselves have been put at risk by these actions that are, I believe, arrogant, misguided and ultimately not helpful in any way. We are doing everything that we can," Holder said Tuesday. "We have a very serious, active, ongoing investigation that is criminal in nature. I authorized just last week a number of things to be done so that we can hopefully get to the bottom of this and hold people accountable, as they -- as they should be."
- Eric Holder (Official) USAG
http://abcnews.go.com/US/assange-lawyers-prepare-us-espionage-indictment/story?id=12362315#.UEWtBGc8rQI
That would be 'lining up charges'.
Welcome to reality. Stay a while.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)without due process and has done so, even including American citizens. The UK and the US are demonstrably guilty of war crimes.
I don't trust any of these governments to do the right thing in light of their past actions but especially not with this case.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)Misconstrued Legal Arguments & Omitted Truths in the Medias Coverage of Julian Assange
By: Kevin Gosztola Monday September 3, 2012 1:21 am
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/09/03/mythology-omitted-truths-in-the-medias-coverage-of-julian-assange/
struggle4progress
(118,320 posts)This article is useful in part for the large number of links given
struggle4progress
(118,320 posts)The legal mythology of the extradition of Julian Assange
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/09/legal-mythology-extradition-julian-assange
This article contains careful examination of purported arguments against portions of his first article
Time for change
(13,718 posts)A long and thorough article.
reorg
(3,317 posts)linked from one of the comments to this article:
(READER CORRECTION OF) Mr Green's "Legal myths about the Assange extradition"
http://pastehtml.com/view/c91yw7wjy.html
Cleita
(75,480 posts)struggle4progress
(118,320 posts)of persons to seek diplomatic asylum."
The US has never recognized the notion of "diplomatic asylum" -- in fact, "diplomatic asylum" is a predominantly Latin American notion, that is not recognized in most of the world
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Well Done!
...and much amazement at the contortions of naysayers.
The 1% do not believe that we have a right to know
what OUR government
is doing with OUR money
in OUR name.
I disagree, and side with the WhistleBlowers.
They are the true Heroes of Democracy.
hack89
(39,171 posts)The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)Because it's irrelevant to what's going on in this case.
But you're just doing your job. I get that.
hack89
(39,171 posts)I don't want Assange to be extradited to America - it is a no win situation for President Obama that complicates his election campaign. He has broken no American laws - plain and simple.
She doesn't understand international law - my only point.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)Response to hack89 (Reply #63)
Post removed
Response to Post removed (Reply #71)
hack89 This message was self-deleted by its author.
joelz
(185 posts)has to seek a safe haven most of the folks where i live Canada have seen the last two presidents turn the constitution on its head torturing,renditions assassinating their own citizens only a fool would jeopardize their freedom for a crap shoot with American justice
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)Spot on.
I remember a thread where 'liberals' wanted to execute a possibly mentally disturbed or culturally ignorant man for saying he wanted to 'sex' a teenage girl.
Those same 'liberals' called me a child molester because I took exception to the notion of murdering a man who didn't hurt anyone.
Here we are again, with 'liberals' presuming guilt while in abject ignorance of the whole situation.
If you think this is about rape, you're just plain ignorant.