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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJust read that the Kurds are of the Communist ilk
So that's how they're going to run it. Unreliable source.
SterlingPound
(428 posts)there is a reason we never backed them in having their own country since the 1960s.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)Just no.
LeftInTX
(25,372 posts)I don't know why the Kurds were left out of the original treaty in 1920. Armenians were also left out of the treaty and we got a parcel of land in the USSR the size of Israel. The Kurds were also supposed to get a country, but they were also left out.
There was no reason to leave the Armenians out. We were Christians and were going to get land the included almost 1/4 of Turkey. (Even though there only several million of us) In the end, the Turks won for some reason.
This all goes back to WWI. There is no way, we would want to create a new country in the ME. The west had already created: Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Empire
First it was the British then US because during the cold war the House of Saud hated communists.
USSR backed socialists in Yemen while Saudi Arabia backed the other side during Yemen civil wars.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Socialist_Party
LeftInTX
(25,372 posts)Most people won't believe they're Communist...LOL
They have a history of being rebels, nomads and living on the fringe of society: bread thieves (growing up I always heard they were gypsies, cuz my family is from the ME), but Communists...no..they aren't organized enough to be Communists...and I just don't see that sticking...
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)Am I reading this on du?
Is this a joke?
LeftInTX
(25,372 posts)They are marginalized people...They're not communists...They are people who have always struggled.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)PatrickforO
(14,576 posts)steals bread with the strong implication that he steals because he is hungry, and that he is hungry because he has no means of earning a living and is poor.
I just don't see that in a pejorative sense. Maybe there's something colloquial that I'm missing, but when I read his term 'bread thief' in association with Kurds, and knowing they are made up of small, nomadic tribal groups, my conclusion was that they are poor, and it makes me even more furious that Trump betrayed them after we had allied ourselves with them.
Later in the thread there's an article about 'forgiving' the Kurds because they once embraced Marxism, and about how they did engage in terror attacks against both military and civilian targets, but no longer do so.
Sadly, after our performance as a superpower these many years, and the sad formation of an American empire under Bush II, Cheney and the neocons, I only hope people around the globe will forgive us when our time comes.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Plus they tend to be more liberal in their political beliefs like you see more women's rights for example.
LeftInTX
(25,372 posts)Trust me, my family is from there...
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)They are effectively running a country without borders.
LeftInTX
(25,372 posts)My family moved away in 1923, but people thought we were Kurds. So I learned about Kurds from family. They would compare Armenians and Kurds. Neither had countries.
I agree though, they have accomplished alot in last 50 years.
I don't think we should create a new country because, we created every other country: Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Israel. It hasn't worked out well.
I do feel we should support them and they should have a semi-autonomous region. If they want to wage a war for independence, then that's their business, but I think they mainly want semi-autonomy and respect.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I don't think we had any business creating those countries (even after they were involved covertly on who should be head of state where). I think things were better under the Ottoman Empire for the most part especially during the Golden age.
tirebiter
(2,538 posts)It's Time to Acknowledge the PKK's Evolution
On January 11, 2019, President Donald Trump began the drawdown of U.S. forces from Syria, making good on a promise tweeted shortly before Christmas. Trumps tweets caused a firestorm within the Pentagon and foreign policy circles. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis resigned after failing to convince Trump to change his mind. The abandonment of Syrian Kurdish groups fighting alongside U.S. Special Forces was, for Mattis, the last straw. National Security Advisor John Bolton has tried to temper abandonment of the Kurds, although it remains unclear to what degree he will be successful.
Many supporters of Trumps decision argued the United States owes little to the Kurds. There are two major streams of criticism toward the U.S. alliance with the Syrian Kurds. The first is realist and argues that Turkey is more important to U.S. interests. That may have been true historically, but ignores that the only reason the U.S. allied with the Kurds in the first place was because, under Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, they proved more willing to confront the Islamic State than Turkey. Other critics of the U.S. alliance with the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) say that it is simply cover for the Peoples Protection Units (YPG), itself a component of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), a U.S.-designated terrorist group which has led an insurgency inside Turkey since 1984. No amount of intellectual somersaults or diplomatic doublespeak can hide that fact, though the State Department tries. What the YPG have accomplished militarily is impressive, as have been the accomplishments of Kurdish civilian organizations inside Syria.
(Keeping the differences, alliances and seperations between the YPG and PKK can be difficult)
At issue is whether the PKK should be judged by its actions of thirty-five-years-ago, or whether it is possible to accept that organizations and governments evolve.
The PKK was founded in 1978 by Abdullah Öcalan, a young ethnic Kurd in Turkey with a group of like-minded Kurdish Marxists in a Diyarbakir tea house. Over the next years, it moved to consolidate control over the Kurdish cause, often targeting and assassinating members of competing leftist and Kurdish groups and political parties. What had begun as a local terror campaign touched a geopolitical nerve. By the logic that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, Öcalan attracted Syrian president Hafez al-Assads support. Syria, which played host to a number of other terrorist and revolutionary organizations. The Syria-supported Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) trained the PKK in its Lebanese camps.
Over the decades, Öcalans rhetoric has moderated and the PKK goals have changed. No longer does the group talk about Turkeys partition; rather, its talks about decentralization and democratic confederalism. Much of Öcalans political philosophy might be gobbledygook, but it is not the Soviet-tinged Marxism feared during the Cold War. And, while an Öcalan personality cult may still remain, it is really little different than the Atatürk cult in Turkey or Barzani cult in Iraqi Kurdistan.
PKK tactics have changed: There remains low-level military insurgency, but gone are the days when the PKK targets Turkish civilians (alas, the reverse is not true with regard to Turkish forces and Kurdish civilians, as the residents of Cizre, Nusaybin, and Sur can attest). Certainly, breakaway factions of the PKK such as the Kurdistan Freedom Falcons (TAK) have claimed attacks, but such factionalism is common when former terrorists come in from the cold. That was the case with the Real IRA which emerged after the IRA entered into a peace process in Northern Ireland.
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Over the course of the last decade and a half the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) has transformed its ideological orientation in accord with the changing outlook of its imprisoned leader, Abdullah Öcalan. It has discarded its erstwhile Marxist-Leninist ideology for the anarchist-inspired thought of the American political theorist Murray Bookchin.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14683849.2018.1480370
SterlingPound
(428 posts)tirebiter
(2,538 posts)It's a not fight I started. I lived in Germany when there was a wall. I was equidistant between Dachau and the wall. The Nazis had been defeated the communists wanted to nuke me.
SterlingPound
(428 posts)this isn't as black and white just like everything else, but it was our unstated stated reason for not backing the Kurds more over the years, hell it was even in the American encyclopedias that they had communist leanings in the '70s and 80's editions I was reading.
LeftInTX
(25,372 posts)They're been more like the PLO....is the PLO communist?
I was somewhat involved with ASALA. ASALA was never communist and they wanted a free country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia
tirebiter
(2,538 posts)That would be the RCPC.
In fact Arafat was good buddies with GWBush when the PLO wa in Lebanon. He bought their ability to not get smashed by being a source of information to GW when he led the CIA
PatrickforO
(14,576 posts)paints someone or some group as being communist. Usually, when this is said, it means the people tend to care about and care for one another, and work to ensure everyone has enough.
Yeah, the old Soviets and certainly the Maoists got it wrong. They were seduced by lust for power and amassed wealth as part of those trappings while paying lip service to the proletariat.
After 60 years on this earth, I tend to think that we need to encourage entrepreneurs, and at the same time we need a stakeholder, rather than a shareholder approach to capitalism, with a robust regulatory role for the government.
Now, according to Marx, 'communism' is that situation where workers themselves own the means of production, and so derive existential meaning from their labor because they own its fruits. That's a simplification, but the Kurds are a nomadic people. They don't have much in the way of capital and are tribal. Many are also Christian, and so are subject to oppression by Turkey and/or other Muslim majority countries.
I would not call the Kurds communist. All that does is play into the Book of Rove - if it comes out you've ratfucked someone, then smear them so people won't feel sorry for them.
A feeble attempt to cover Donald Trump's treason, wouldn't you say?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And it's just as relevant, just as sourced and cited, and just as substantive.
Silver1
(721 posts)Huge difference ...