Former MCC inmate: There's 'no way' Jeffrey Epstein killed himself

[LiberalArkie]

There’s no way that man could have killed himself. I’ve done too much time in those units. It’s an impossibility.

Between the floor and the ceiling is like eight or nine feet. There’s no way for you to connect to anything.

You have sheets, but they’re paper level, not strong enough. He was 200 pounds — it would never happen.

When you’re on suicide watch, they put you in this white smock, a straight jacket. They know a person cannot be injurious to themselves.

More.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/10/former-mcc-inmate-theres-no-way-jeffrey-epstein-killed-himself/

[Hassin Bin Sober]

1. Was he or was he not on suicide watch?

I read he wasn’t

[LisaL]

18. He was but they took him off, so at the time of his demise, he was not.

They also removed his cellmate from his cell.

[jberryhill]

2. You don't have to connect to the ceiling...

...nor is it necessary to support the entire body weight with the ligature.

People can hang themselves by attaching a ligature to something much lower, and simply leaning.

This person obviously knows nothing about hanging if he believes it is necessary to connect to the ceiling and to support the entire body weight.

[mr_lebowski]

4. So you're saying it's pretty easy, while in contact with the ground, and hence capable of STOPPING

yourself from being strangled to death ... to resist your body's natural reaction to go ahead and get a breath of air ... before dying?

Not saying the guy knows what he's talking about, but I AM saying ... you gotta be pretty damn determined. I doubt a lot of people could do it, put it that way.

I mean ... do you think you could successfully hang yourself on a bedframe that's 12" off the ground? Pretty damn sure I couldn't. That's assuming there even IS a bedframe ...

I guess Epstein must've been a real strong-willed mofo.

[LiberalArkie]

7. You have sheets, but they're paper level, not strong enough. He was 200 pounds -- it would never happ

[jberryhill]

12. You only have to get to the point where you pass out

People do it accidentally during auto-erotic asphyxiation all of the time.

It is one of the leading causes of death. It’s not a particular challenge, since all kinds of people manage.

Here’s a handy study of suicidal hangings in one Indian state:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090536X1400046X

Fully 31.8% of people, given the the unrestricted opportunity to hang themselves however they want, went for partial hanging, and not a complete suspension.

That is, to your point, yes, a substantial proportion of people hang themselves while in contact with the ground. That is a documented and measured fact.

[mr_lebowski]

20. Fair enough ... solid stats ... however I wonder how many pulled it off the first or second time

while being watched by a surveillance camera by people charged with keeping you from doing it?

I also wonder if there wouldn't at least be SOME compliment of cells at this facility where the physical reality of the surroundings and the items you're provided with couldn't 100% preclude the possibility of hanging oneself? Plexiglass door instead of bars, rubber mattress on the floor, etc. It's DEFINITELY not impossible to prevent someone from hanging themselves if you really want to.

Given this, I really wonder whether there wasn't some sketchy negligence involved.

And I'll leave it at that.

This all being said ... kinda glad the dude is dead. Saved the taxpayers a ton of cash ...

[jberryhill]

22. With enough staff, money and effort, all kinds of things are possible

Making prisons safer for inmates is not the highest federal budget priority.

I’m old enough to remember that when Chelsea Manning was put on suicide watch for affirmatively stating her intention, the intrusive measures required to do so were decried by DUers as “torture”. Now, that sort of effort is magically required as normal.

[mr_lebowski]

24. Also fair points. Let's see how it shakes out ... not that we'll likely ever get the real facts

out of this DoJ, but ...

It really is incredibly irresponsible that this was allowed to happen, regardless of whether there's nefarious actors/actions involved.

[femmedem]

44. I knew someone, a friend, who hanged himself on his bedframe.

Last edited Sun Aug 11, 2019, 10:46 PM - Edit history (2)

People thought at first it was autoerotic asphyxiation until they realized he'd packed all of his belongings to make it easier for his family to dispose of them.

I'm not speculating about how Epstein died. I'm just saying that such determination is not impossible.

[RobinA]

52. The Internet

is apparently full of suicide how-tos. It was explained to me once how to strangle yourself lying down and without it being obvious to an observer what you are doing. Something to do with the ligature being around your neck and attached to your legs. I conveniently forget the details. I’m not saying Epstein did this, just saying you don’t have the literally hang yourself.

[mr_lebowski]

53. It may well be on the internet, and may very well 'work' ... but it's still going to take great will

to resist your body's inclination to breathe, I would think.

Plus Epstein would've had to research it before going to jail ... when in reality, until he was popped, he probably thought he was 'safe'.

Plus he had to be conveniently taken off suicide watch in order to possess anything to use as a ligature in the first place.

Quite a few convenience confluences involved in such an explanation is all I'm saying.

[Mortos]

59. It only takes a few seconds once your carotid arteries are compressed to lose consciousness

There is no fight for breath once a person is unconscious. There is autonomic responses and the person will gurgle as their body tries to resupply oxygen to the brain but it's not like drowning where you fight with all your might to breathe.

The two carotid arteries lie in the front of the neck on either side of the trachea (windpipe) and carry blood from the heart to the brain. They supply 90% or so of the brain’s blood, with the rest coming from the two small vertebral arteries that travel along the spine and over the back-most portion of the brain. The carotids are interconnected in the brain so that in a normal individual compressing a single carotid artery will have little effect. Compressing both can cause a loss of consciousness in 15 to 20 seconds and death in 2 to 4 minutes.

A major variable in play here is how severely the arteries are compressed. If only partially collapsed, the victim might have no problems. Severe and almost complete compression can cause loss of consciousness and death in short order. And anywhere in between. Significant and potentially deadly compression can result from strangulation–either manual or ligature–hanging, or an aggressively applied choke hold.

All of these conspiracy theories are bunk. Epstein knew he was never getting out of prison and killed himself. It's not that difficult to do and I am sure details will be coming out as to how he did it.

[Tipperary]

60. That woman who was a big fashion name did so

on the closet door. Too lazy to look up her name. I think Robin Williams did the same. Go figure.

[calimary]

74. Yeah. Robin Williams did the same.

[Tipperary]

67. More strong willed than someone who jumps off a

bridge? Takes a razor to their veins? Sticks a gun in their mouth? Attaches a hose to an exhaust pipe?

If a person wants to die, they will.

[mr_lebowski]

68. I'd say more than most of those things, yes ...

Because you're not dealing with autonomic response in process of dying ... in most of those cases. The cutting of the vein I'd say is closest.

Look I'm not ruling out that he hung himself by any stretch. I do find it suspicious that he was allowed the tools, and had the wherewithal to pull it off, when I assume it was quite uncomfortable to do so.

I'll leave it at that.

[BigmanPigman]

9. You are correct. On CNN just now they interviewed

a person experienced in these matters and he said that a person can make a ligature from nylon socks and do it on his cot within 90 seconds. He tried to explain how but the CNN anchor stopped him so he wouldn't be on TV telling other people how to do it. Basically, if you really want to kill yourself, you can do it in a number of ways (often painful and not quick).

[jberryhill]

15. No, they won't explain it on TV

And precisely for the reason you cite. Suicide is a leading cause of death and is “contagious” to some extent.

But that’s why the “hang ‘em high” folks will never understand that weighted strangulation is a lot easier than having to build a gallows.



But sick fucks on the internet are going to demand diagrams.

[mr_lebowski]

25. OTOH, nobody in federal lockup has to be given nylon socks, nor a cot ...

So there's that.

[Straw Man]

35. I saw that and can attest to it.

You are correct. On CNN just now they interviewed

a person experienced in these matters and he said that a person can make a ligature from nylon socks and do it on his cot within 90 seconds.

I used to teach in state prisons, and one of the inmates in the facility where I was employed did just that.

[mr_lebowski]

3. I guess this proves it ... what else but the Almighty Clenis could've pulled it off? (nt)

[FakeNoose]

5. Still waiting for the autopsy results

Cause of death is still "pending." Whatever that means.

[Solomon]

6. Means they are probably waiting on the toxicology

results.

[yardwork]

8. He was not on suicide watch. It's entirely possible he bribed somebody to help him.

[LiberalArkie]

10. The thing about it is that him being dead does not change anything but his sentence

He would have taken the fifth even when they asked him his name.

[yardwork]

13. As he had done before, yes.

Epstein was out of options. He was not going to get another cushy deal. This time he was going away for a long time, and his life was going to be living hell. Epstein couldn't handle that.

[LiberalArkie]

36. Epstein could have very easily gotten the word out that he would pay 10 million to whoever

gets him out also

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

41. A prisoner who's in for child molesting or abuse is at the bottom of the prison hierarchy,

literally. Even the most hard-hearted criminal will not accept a person who takes advantage of the most innocent in our society.

[jberryhill]

16. He wouldn't even have to do that

There is no reason that he would be on the stand in the first place.

[pnwmom]

49. He wouldn't have to be on the stand to give the police key information.

Like, for example, where to find a safety deposit box continuing important evidence, and the key that would open it.

[LisaL]

57. He had a lot of dirt on a lot of people.

And the only way to be sure he didn't spill the beans would be if he were dead.

[calimary]

75. Maybe that's how he got so rich.

[yardwork]

11. The rest of the quotes give an important context:

The anonymous source quoted in your article also said:

It’s like you’re an animal and you’ve been brought into a kennel. A guy like Jeffrey, it’s like, “Holy shit.”
....

I’ve had some heavy incidents in the building. What happened is permanent.

Some of the guards are on a major power trip. They know guys there are suffering. They know something the rest of the world hasn’t seen, that a place like this exists in this country, and they get off on it.

If the guards see that the guy is breaking, they’re going to help you break.

Epstein was a child rapist. They don't have an easy time in jail, at all. The MCC sounds like hell on earth. Epstein checked out.

[emmaverybo]

30. Guards looked the other way when an inmate stomped a convicted pedophile priest to death. They

let him into the priest’s cell where he’d been isolated from gen pop. Epstein knew he’d never be safe and that, in any case, as your post supports, his life was going to be worse than death.

[LisaL]

40. Interesting that you should post about the case where the priest wasn't just stomped to death, he

was strangled.

[yardwork]

42. Exactly. Ariel Castro, who kidnapped and raped children, also killed himself.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2013/09/04/justice/ariel-castro-cleveland-kidnapper-death/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

[LisaL]

43. The priest didn't kill himself, he was murdered. Strangled, actually.

[yardwork]

45. That happens to pedophiles in prison.

[LisaL]

46. Yet you are arguing that Epstein's death was a suicide? Or not?

I am confused.

[yardwork]

47. Are you really confused?

[LisaL]

48. By what exactly you are trying to argue here.

[emmaverybo]

70. The priest, Father Gaughin (sic), was murdered, yes. I am saying that I would think, whether

or not he knew of this specific case, Epstein was aware that he could not be guaranteed safety in prison. Regardless, he knew game up and future a nightmare.

He had every reason to kill himself.

[Stuart G]

14. k and r

[Grasswire2]

17. photo of him on gurney arriving at medical center shows him in orange jump suit.

Not a white gown.

Also odd -- reports claimed he was "found dead" in his cell, while photos of him arriving at medical center show EMTs working on him -- he's intubated and they are bagging him and may be doing chest compressions.

Wouldn't be doing that if he had been "found dead."

[jberryhill]

23. Why would he be wearing a white gown?

News flash - if EMTs arrive on the scene and you have no heartbeat or respiration, they attempt to revive you, and don’t just throw up their hands and go for a beer. One thing they don’t do is change your clothes for no particular reason.

[mr_lebowski]

27. I think the posters point is that if Epstein was on suicide watch he'd have been in a white gown

to begin with, not the regular orange garb.

Rather than implying that his clothes were changed.

Just sayin'.

I disagree with the poster's point that the EMT's wouldn't have been trying to revive if he was 'found dead'. If their efforts to revive him were unsuccessful, it's not unreasonable to still say he was 'found dead' I don't think.

[LisaL]

28. He wasn't on suicide watch. They took him off.

[mr_lebowski]

31. This is supposedly true. I wasn't actually addressing whether he was or wasn't, just clarifying

the apparent misunderstanding.

[jberryhill]

33. He wasn't on suicide watch

You may find the linked study here to be of interest:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-08-11/jeffrey-epstein-death-suicide-murder-conspiracy-theories


According to news reports, Epstein was not on suicide watch when he died, but even if he had been the outcome might have been the same. A study by the U.S. Marshal Service found that about 8% of suicides in correctional facilities occurred even though an inmate was on suicide watch. According to the report, the vast majority of suicides (more than 90%) are hangings, with the second most common being drug overdoses.

[mr_lebowski]

34. The OP was suggesting that he was, by the white gown comment ...

Is what I was getting at.

Nobody was suggesting his clothes were changed in this thread other than you.

[Grasswire2]

73. suicide watch protocol is a white gown. nt

[cwydro]

19. Strait jacket, not straight jacket.

Jeez, NY Post, spell it correctly.

[mr_lebowski]

26. Pretty sure it's straitjacket ... if we're correcting spelling ;) nt

[LisaL]

21. They took him off suicide watch, left him in the cell by himself (by removing his cellmate)

and weren't checking on him every 30 minutes as they were supposed to do.
So no witnesses to anything. But it sure doesn't sound like they were working hard on keeping him alive, does it?

[EndGOPPropaganda]

29. This is BS. Many experts agree it is possible.

Experienced defense lawyer and ex federal prosecutor:

Link to tweet

[LisaL]

32. They had a supposedly suicidal man taken off suicide watch,

left alone in the cell (cellmate was removed) and weren't watching him every 30 minutes as supposed to. Do you think they were really concerned about his life? That is if we assume that his death really was suicide.

[EndGOPPropaganda]

37. No, I don't think they were concerned.

As the ex-fed prosecutor above said, MANY people in the prison system aren’t concerned about human life. There’s not necessarily anything special about this case.

[jberryhill]

38. "Do you think they were really concerned about his life?"

Do you think prison guards normally give much of a shit about prisoners’ lives?

Like, have you met a lot of folks who say, “I care about people, so I became a prison guard?”

[pnwmom]

50. But with such a high profile prisoner connected to many co-conspirators and hundreds of victims

they SHOULD have been paying special attention to keeping him alive.

They could neglect to do their job with someone nobody was paying attention to -- but in this case, with so many eyes on them, you'd think they would have at least pretended harder that they were doing their jobs and following standard written procedure.

[jberryhill]

51. Where are the "low profile" prisoners?

They don’t get a bonus check for being extra careful around some candy ass rich guy who thinks he’s better than them.

[pnwmom]

54. The vast majority of prisoners there have much lower media-profiles than Epstein --

so the typical prisoner has many fewer people paying attention to what happens to them, and to how well the prison is doing its job.

[Tipperary]

63. Remember Aaron Hernandez? Pretty high profile.

A few Nazis managed it too, while awaiting execution. Can’t get much higher profile than that.

[pnwmom]

69. I had no memory of him, so I looked him up.

He was a football player who killed someone.

No, he didn't have nearly as high a media-profile as Jeffrey Epstein, friend of many famous people and rapist of hundreds of girls over decades.

[triron]

71. Agree. Some here want to discredit the high-profile enigma it seems.

[brush]

58. How did he hang himself when there's nothing on the cell walls to hook onto?

[Tipperary]

65. Numerous posts in this thread explain that.

Much easier than you think.

[brush]

76. Humor me. Just give me a couple of ways if you know.

[EndGOPPropaganda]

77. Who should we believe, the ex-fed prosecutor and current defense attorney...

with many clients in the federal system,
or... other people?

[EndGOPPropaganda]

39. Wait. **NY POST** !!!!!!!

You’re posting links pushing conspiracy theories from the NY Murdoch Post?!?!?!?!?!

No no no no no.

This is not what Democrats do. Please NEVER link to the Murdoch press, including the NY Post. The NY post is DESIGNED to harm Democrats and help Republicans, in many cases merely by the stories they select, not even what they say in the stories.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!

[humbled_opinion]

55. Aren't their cells

under video surveillance or at least have guards that periodically walk by and check them ? Something just not sitting right with this, and the poor victims will never get the justice that they deserved.

[LisaL]

56. From what has been reported, guards should have been checking on him every 30 minutes but

they didn't.

[Captain Zero]

62. when I heard they were working huge amounts of OT

I thought. Oh. Sleeping on duty.

[Takket]

64. I definitely think he killed himself

But he had help. The circumstances of his removal from suicide watch are key for me. That decision gave him the chance to do it.

[gordianot]

66. Occam's razor!

[SweetieD]

72. Its possible to hang yourself from a door knob or bed post. I know that sounds grisly.