It's not the guns. Switzerland has as many guns as the US and had 3 mass-shootings in 100 years.

[DetlefK]

Last edited Mon Aug 5, 2019, 10:24 AM - Edit history (1)

https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/switzerland-high-gun-ownership?rebelltitem=2#rebelltitem2
https://www.businessinsider.de/switzerland-gun-laws-rates-of-gun-deaths-2018-2?op=1



Switzerland has mandatory conscription for men into the army. If you're not fit for responsibly operating a weapon, they will know at the entry-exam. ALL MEN UNDERGO A PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION PRIOR TO GETTING A WEAPON.

After military-service, you're allowed to keep your rifle, as some sort of citizen-militia in case of an invasion. The big difference to the US is the gun-culture: In Switzerland, that's not YOUR rifle, YOUR problem-solver. It's the country's rifle and you're taking care of it.



EDIT: There seems to have been a misunderstanding of my OP. It wasn't my intention to deflect towards a "mental health"-angle. It was my intention to point out that you can have roughly the same amount of weapons as the US and still have a low number of mass-shootings if you regulate them appropriately and if the culture treats them appropriately instead of glorifying them.

[pangaia]

1. repub fascists often use switzerland as an example that

GUNS DON'T KILL.. blah blah.

So- you are right to post this-- it is a totally different situation.. WHO owns the guns..

[lunasun]

2. What kind of rifle? Ammunition capacity? Same as we have seen used this week ?

[sarisataka]

9. The Swiss rifle is

The Stgw 90, sold on the civilian market as the SIG 550. It uses the same NATO 5.56 mm as the AR 15. 30 round magazines are standard.
It does have internal differences but functionally is the same as an AR 15.

[sir pball]

19. Except that the issue Stgw90 is select-fire

The rifle is hammer-fired and has a trigger mechanism with an ambidextrous safety and fire selector switch that has 4 settings: "S"—safe, "1"—single fire, "3"—3-round burst and "20"—fully automatic fire.

Yes, SIG manufactured (they don't anymore, now it's all AR clones) a semi-automatic only variant for the civilian market, but that ain't the one the Swiss issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550
https://www.sigsauer.com/full-product-catalog/all-rifles/

[sarisataka]

24. Correct

I probably should have made that clear

[sir pball]

10. SIG 550. 30-round magazines. Full-automatic fire. The "genuine" version of what was used here.

HOWEVER, while they are technically the personal property of Swiss militiamen and they are still allowed to keep them at home, even after retirement, they must obtain the relevant license for the weapon and the government no longer issues ammunition for them - it's sold at the range, and must be used there.

Never been entirely sure about the per-capita firearms ownership rate in CH us the US, and they definitely aren't awash in handguns (and raving lunatics) like we are, so homicide rate comparisons would be apples and oranges anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Swiss_Armed_Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzerland#Army-issued_arms_and_ammunition_collection

[lunasun]

13. Ammunition is sold at range and must be used there . Well then why compare to here as OP did?

Not the same imo
Thanks for reply

[sir pball]

17. Because it's tempting on its face as a easy comparison

"All Swiss men have automatic weapons, it's not the guns at all!" is a lot easier than trying to work out deeper reasons and practical, effective restrictions that would be passable in the US (IMO "it's JUST the guns so take every single one" isn't much better but I really don't want to get into that here).

The limitation to buying and using ammo at the range is only for government-issued military-specification ammo though; it looks like you can buy private ammo and keep it at home with no issues.

[Mike_DuBois]

21. Ammunition is sold in vending machines outside banks

At least In Zurich they were.

[Hoyt]

28. More uninformed gun BS. Ammo is strictly controlled in Switzerland, unlike here.

[Mike_DuBois]

34. You really should keep comments like that to people who haven't personally experienced it.

You toss around uninformed like you are an authority on the subject. Tell me, when have you last visited Zurich? If you can show me how to post a picture, I'll be glad to educate you.

[Hoyt]

39. I'm telling you, you can't buy ammo out of a vending machine in Switzerland without a permit.

I know gun BS when I see it. Maybe you can provide a citation or two about this vending machine you supposedly saw, and I assume purchased ammunition from.


Here is Switzerland's laws on ammunition:

Buying Ammunition

In order to purchase ammunition the buyer must follow the same legal rules that apply to buying guns. The buyer can only buy munition for guns that he/she legally owns and must provide the following information to the seller (Art. 15, 16 WG; Art 24 WV):[9][10]

--valid official identification or passport (and must be older than 18 and who are not psychiatrically disqualified nor identified as posing security problems, and must not be a citizen of the following countries (Art. 12 WV): Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Algeria and Albania)

--residence address

--criminal record copy not older than 3 months

--weapon acquisition permit not older than 2 years, or a weapon carrying permit not older than 5 years

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Switzerland.html

[Mike_DuBois]

41. Who should I believe? Some rando on the internet or my own eyes?

Zurich. Went for skiing and tourism.

http://imgur.com/gallery/KygAZ9Y

[Hoyt]

43. Looks more like ammo for military/emergency weapons that can no longer be kept at home.

"Prior to 2007 members of the Swiss Militia were supplied with 50-rounds of ammunition for their military weapon in a sealed ammo box that was regularly audited by the government. This was so that, in the case of an emergency, the militia could respond quickly.

"A "shooting society" somewhere in Switzerland; people come to such ranges to complete mandatory training with service arms, or to shoot for sport and competition.

"In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers would stop and that previously issued ammo would be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only 2,000 specialist militia members (who protect airports and other sites of particular sensitivity) are permitted to keep their military-issued ammunition at home."

Same link, that was Switzerland's law.

[Mike_DuBois]

44. So, no comment or apology re: ammo vending machine?

Admit it. I was right.

[Hoyt]

45. Doesn't look like a vending machine for "sales" [you said "sold" remember].

[BannonsLiver]

47. That's because it's not a vending machine

I googled ammunition vending machines Switzerland several different ways and it’s a nothingburger. Fake news. I’m not sure that poster understood what they were seeing anyway.

[Hoyt]

49. Honestly, I think it might be a repository for military ammunition in the case of an emergency.

But, like you, I don't think it is a "vending" machine to sell ammo. Heck, very few people can carry guns in Switzerland. And buying ammo is tightly controlled.

To be fair, I can see how a tourist/skier might confuse it with a vending machine if they do not realize how Switzerland provides a rifle for military to keep at home, but ammo must be kept by the military for emergencies.

[Mike_DuBois]

58. Coins go in top. Open door. I don't know how else it would work

You seem more interested in "being RIGHT" than actually discussing or learning. So. Enjoy. I'm disappointed.

[Hoyt]

59. It's likely a military depository, Mike. Read post above.

[Mike_DuBois]

61. A glass front along a sidewalk is military repository?

M'kay

We are obviously just going to continue talking past each other. I know what I saw. I know what the guide told us.

[Blue_true]

52. I knew a person once who made bullets.

He did it as a recreational and history-buff activity, but there are real off the grid shops in this country making bullets for any gun.

So, we need a deeper shift than restricting where bullets can be sold, we need ALL citizens to accept that and abide by it. The USA has had the rugged individual farce going for it's lifetime, such people have been celebrated instead of being viewed as misfits. All of us have some loner tendencies and desire to be individualistic, but every single one of us need contact with other people.

[Hoyt]

55. Anyone can buy reloading equipment. But you are right, even with ammo control,

there will always be ammo on Black market, or made in basement. I do believe almost any impediment helps, though.

[Codeine]

11. It's a military assault rifle.

[DanTex]

3. Switzerland does not have as many guns per capita as the US. Not even close.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

[spooky3]

30. Thank you for posting a link to data.

In another thread, someone also argued that our gun incident rates were well below that of Norway, etc., but posted no link. It took me seconds to find a medical journal article reporting evidence that Americans are 10 times more likely to die from guns than any other high income country.

[uponit7771]

40. ..👍🏼

[Hoyt]

4. Oh BS. Guns are difficult to purchase in Switzerland. Permits to carry are rare. Ammo is restricted.

Ammo for the military issued rifles is not kept at home (except for a few thousand specialist military members).


The article gets into some, but not all, that. But Guns are a big part of the problem here.

[LisaL]

5. Switzerland actually has gun laws.

"The law also states that anyone who "expresses a violent or dangerous attitude" won't be permitted to own a gun."

https://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-gun-laws-rates-of-gun-deaths-2018-2#most-people-arent-allowed-to-carry-their-guns-around-in-switzerland-12

[JI7]

6. no, it really is the guns. and the two countries really are not comparable for many reasons

[Igel]

18. There was a nifty study a decade or two ago.

It looked at violence at communities matched for demographics (race, employment, family structure) in two communities over a few years, and focused on violence in which one particular weapon was used.

It found that one community had much higher rates of violence, consistently so. Whether it was street violence, violence during crimes like robbery, domestic violence, violence against police or among gangs, one community stood out for higher rates of violence.

One community was in Canada. The other in Washington State.

The weapon used was kitchen knives.

"No, it really is the knives. And the two countries really are not comparable for many reasons." But if they're not comparable, you can't conclude that it really is the knives. It becomes belief and a priori assumptions.

If you control for all other factors, and knives was the variable that changed, you'd have a "it's the knives conclusion". If you do an experiment, you really need some sort of control. Which is why Switzerland *is* a good test case. There are lots of guns (just like in the study there are lots of knives). But in one case, there's low incidence of violence; in the other, high. The question then becomes, "Which of the reasons that make the two countries not comparable account for the variance?"

[hunter]

25. It's our disgusting gun culture.

As well as the guns.

We have to start looking at people withe gun fetishes the same way we look at pedophiles.

Both are the sorts who destroy lives.

People who keep one or two guns for utilitarian purposes are not the problem.

Guys who get aroused obsessing about guns, and yes it's mostly guys, are the problem.

Most people in the United States don't care enough about guns to bother owning one. Then there's people who have one or two guns safely locked away that they rarely think about. Maybe they occasionally hunt with family or friends, maybe not. Maybe they are keeping a family heirloom, grandpa's deer rifle, or something.

Those are not the people who buy guns these days, and trade organizations like the NRA know it. The only way they can sell new guns is to inflame the desires and feed the fears of freaks who buy entire arsenals of guns.

It's also a public health issue like smoking. I remember people smoking on airplanes and in grocery stores and restaurants. That was disgusting too, and like guns, smoking kills people.

[StarfishSaver]

7. No. It's the guns

[Princetonian]

8. How many military-type assault rifles do the Swiss own? Here it's 15-20 million.

[Paladin]

12. Spectacularly unconvincing. (nt)

[Act_of_Reparation]

14. Bullshit.

How many mass shooters had a diagnosed mental illness? How many even showed signs of mental illness prior to their crime?

"Mental illness" is itself a fairly nebulous term. Paraphilias are mental illnesses. Eating disorders are mental illnesses. Obsessive-compulsive disorders are mental illnesses. Depression. Bipolar. Schizophrenia. Half a dozen or so personality disorders. Which of these strongly indicates mass shootings? Which of these should prevent a person from owning a firearm?

[malaise]

15. Does Switzerland have all these assault rifles? n/t

[jimmy the one]

16. you are misinformed & misleading about swiss gun laws

detlef: It's not the guns. Switzerland has as many guns as the US and had 3 mass-shootings in 100 years

No that is incorrect. Switzerland only has about 5 - 6 million firearms. America has over 300 million. If you were to eliminate all of switzerland's 5 million firearms from america's national gunstock, you'd still have over 300 million guns in america.
So your premise is invalid, and yes it is primarily the guns.

detlef: After military-service, you're allowed to keep your rifle, as some sort of citizen-militia in case of an invasion.

You have the option to keep your assault rifle after completing home guard service. Officers get a handgun.

You are a bit misinformed regarding swiss gun laws. You make it seem a gun utopia, when it's more a gun dystopia. for the nra.
Swiss cannot carry concealed unless they have a permit based on need (equivalent to 'may issue' in US, which has 'shall issue' which means 'must issue', essentially.)
Swiss need permits to purchase.
Ammunition for swiss assault rifles are kept in a govt armory, issued upon national decree or emergency. They almost mandated those assault rifles to be kept in armories as well. If you do have ammo at home, it must be accounted for, inspections regularly.
A poll revealed something like over 75% of swiss believed in strong gun control laws, not lax.

[DetlefK]

22. US only has 4 times as many guns per capita, not 50 times as many.

As I said, it's not the guns per se. It's how you decide to regulate guns and gun-ownership.

And it's how your culture treats guns. The US glorifies them, Switzerland treats them as a tool.

[honest.abe]

48. So your OP is stunningly wrong since it says "Switzerland has as many guns as the US".

[Voltaire2]

20. Horseshit.

Switzerland has strict gun control. And please stop stigmatizing our gun problem as a mental health issue.

[PandoraAwakened]

23. Stupid is as Stupid says...

Oh great, you're citing bigthink.com as a source: Bigthink is funded in part by tRump ass-licker Peter Thiel, Facebook board director who has vowed to keep the Orange Turd squatting in the Oval Office in 2020.

Are you a Rethuglican, a Ruskie, or just someone who believes anything you find on the Internet that matches your own preconceived notions, however misguided they might be?

[kcr]

26. Wrong. Switzerland doesn't have nearly as many guns as the US.

Massive right-wing gun nut talking point fail.

[spooky3]

37. even the linked article, and its headline, supports what you are saying. nt

[BannonsLiver]

38. Which begs the questions

Why is a DUer allowed to post RWNJ logic and propaganda on this site.

[bronxiteforever]

27. This article is outdated. Swiss voted for gun control

In May, 2019.
Gun crazy' Switzerland votes in EU-aligned firearms control
France 24
Latest update : 19/05/2019 - 17:27

Swiss voters agreed this Sunday to tighten its gun laws and meet EU’s demands, according to final referendum results. The wealthy Alpine nation is the world’s 16th country in terms of civilian firearms possession, but has rarely seen mass shootings.

Switzerland’s public broadcaster RTS reported 63.7% of voters nationwide agreed on Sunday to toughen its laws on firearms possession in order to bring it in line with the new European Union legislation on the matter, citing final results.

Also in article
Although Switzerland has a low level of mass shootings, it has one of the highest suicide rates by firearms in Europe. Its rate is three times superior to the European average, according to the Swiss television RTS, and reportedly half of Swiss young men who commit suicide use a firearm -- a record for Europe.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190519-switzerland-guns-eu-aligned-firearms-control-vote

The Swiss passed this to stay in the EU but I think it clarifies the new Swiss position. The business insider article was from 2018.

[Cetacea]

29. It's not mentall illness

Most mass shooters had no mental health issues.

[Blecht]

31. Switzerland has a "well-regulated militia"

We do not, even though it is mandated by the 2nd Amendment.

[jmg257]

51. Yep - when the chosen representatives of We the People decided to re-create the Militias,

they should have dealt with the related clauses in the Constitution.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

32. It's the guns plus the culture that promotes worship of them.

In Switzerland and other European countries where gun ownership is common, guns are heavily regulated and licensed - and people think of them only as tools for a particular purpose, like hunting. In the US, though, there's a symbolism some people attach to them having to do with patriotism and, apparently, manhood. They are regarded as necessary not only for "protection," but as a means to solve problems because real Americans are strong and tough and if someone gets in your face you can just fuckin' shoot them. You also need more than one of them, even if you can shoot only one of them at a time, because, I dunno, the government is going to come and take them and then what? There's a super-weird mindset in this country about guns, and that mindset makes the damn things proliferate because we think everybody ought to be able to have them, any number and kind they want, and the more people that have them for whatever reason they want in order to solve any problem that vexes them, the more gun violence there's going to be.

[ooky]

33. I think it would be wonderful if everyone who wants to buy a gun of any kind would

have to go through a rigid licensing process which includes a mandatory mental evaluation. I think doing that makes great sense, and you can bet that the NRA wouldn't like that at all. It would definitely be a start. Also, since nobody actually needs an assault weapon for any reason other than committing mass murders fast, reinstating the assault weapons ban makes perfect sense. And, I think it makes sense not to have people running around in public carrying hand guns, so those kinds of guns, in general, should be restricted to their private residences, for their protection. For example, nobody needs a gun when they go grocery shopping. And then, once we enact these laws and catch people breaking them, a mandatory prison sentence of minimum one year in a federal prison would be a great deterrent and help reduce the number of guns out in public places.

I think all the common sense things we can do will help reduce the number of gun deaths.

[elocs]

35. Cultures are not the same, and other nations do not have constitutional rights to own guns.

The gun played a large role in America's growth from a frontier to the most powerful nation in the world.
Not every idea can be simply or easily transferred from one nation to another.
Switzerland is not the U.S. and the Swiss are not just people who do not happen to be Americans.

[hunter]

36. Same as Zardoz...

My great grandmas were all steely eyed women of the Wild West. They were extremely competent with guns, but they didn't worship them.

Fools and their guns were soon separated.

The second amendment is bullshit, just as the Constitutionality of slavery was bullshit, just as denying women the right to vote was bullshit.

Gun culture in the U.S.A. is something we ought to be ashamed of. It did not make us great. It did not make us powerful. We ignore our vile history of genocide and murder at our own peril.

[llmart]

42. What a total crock of shit.

n/t

[retread]

46. Oh no!! They;re doing it again!! Try to take

[Blue_true]

50. You raised a legitimate path for dealing with the problem that we have,

and you used a real working model.

A problem like the one we have will not be solved with one size fits all solutions.

[treestar]

53. The culture is different

Ours appears to get less and less civilized.

[elocs]

63. I said that in this thread earlier this morning but evidently it's not a popular idea.

Yes, our cultures are different. America is not Switzerland and Switzerland is not America.
What other country is just like the U.S. which has a constitutional amendment that guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. No other country has the same kind of history with the gun that ours does.
It seems foolish to ignore this in searching for a solution to our gun problem because, no, all guns are not going to be taken away--that's a reality.

[CatMor]

54. That is ridiculous propaganda...

Switzerland has a population of only 8.5 million people. How could they possibly have more guns than the US with a population of approximately 300 million people.

[bobbieinok]

56. Swiss relatives said if stolen gun used in crime, owner is liable

I had asked what they did about guns being stolen since nearly every residence has at least one because of mi,rotary reservist living there.

Also in order to keep gun at home each reservist must pass a periodic shooting competency test.

Many compete in contests and post winning trophies in their homes.

[cbdo2007]

60. Why does it have to be black and white?? Guns are definitely PART of the problem...

as well as Mental Health issues, and our violent culture, and our glorifying media, and Trumps inciting violence, and broken homes and video games and on and on and on.

That's why any one solution truly won't work, and as a society we need to come together and agree this is a problem and discuss many possible solutions to the problem.

Focusing on guns only from our side is doing as much good as ignoring guns on the other side.

[hunter]

64. Gun fetishes are disgusting.

Pedophilia is a mental health issues too but no longer one we easily dismiss.

[KG]

62. it's no coincidence shootings involve guns - it all starts with the ridiculous availability of gunz

[lark]

65. Big issue - these are only given to people that pass the screening - most of our killers would fail

Background checks is the main thing people agree on. Also, they have 1 (ONE) gun, our gun nuts have many. Not the same thing at all.

[KentuckyWoman]

66. Your post is clear and I understood fine

The entire US culture is individual rights and ownership. Own a house. Own a car. This is mine.

Cultures with a mindset of community first and the individual second might do better in this regard. I don't know, but I see your point.

Good food for thought.