BTRTN: Point/Counterpoint... Debating the Dems' Next Steps Following the Mueller Debacle

[reggieandlee]

The brothers behind Born To Run The Numbers take diametrically opposite views on how the Dems should proceed following Robert Mueller's uncompelling House testimony. Read their two arguments, back to back, here:

http://www.borntorunthenumbers.com/2019/07/btrtn-pointcounterpoint-debating-dems.html

Excerpts from the argument favoring impeachment: "Nancy Pelosi keeps saying that the Democrats cannot act on impeachment until ...they are certain that the American people will support it. In so doing, Nancy Pelosi is essentially admitting to leading by polling. She is telling people that she is putting her finger up in the air to see which way the winds are blowing, abdicating the moral imperatives that leadership demand. Nancy Pelosi believes that articles impeachment passed in the House followed by a failure to acquit in the Senate will help Trump by 'exonerating' him. Yet, in that scenario, it is Senate Republicans 'exonerate' Trump. But by failing to pass articles of impeachment in the House, it is the Democrats who are exonerating Trump."

Excerpts from the argument opposing impeachment: "It’s time for the Democrats to bury the impeachment fantasy, follow the Pelosi script and get on with 2020. Impeachment is not the end game: getting rid of Donald Trump as quickly as possible is the end game. And the best way...is to vote him out in 2020. Not only will the impeachment folly give Trump a boost in his 2020 White House bid, but the Dems also risk losing the House. Does everyone understand why more than half of the Democrats in the House are not in favor of impeachment? Because they are worried that if they pursue impeachment, they put their seats at risk. And they have good reason to worry. The Dems flipped 39 seats in 2018. They won those seats by +5 percentage points on average. No wonder only six of those 39 new reps have come out for impeachment! Those seats could easily flip back..."

[snowybirdie]

1. Mueller debacle?????

I think not!

[abqtommy]

7. I agree...

"Mueller debacle" is a reich-wing talking point and I'm disappointed to see that here on DU in the context of a thread title.

[tgards79]

9. You think Jeffrey Toobin is right wing, too?

He was terrible!!!! Everyone says it, that's the non-controversial part!

[Baltimike]

11. "everyone says it"

funny how they started talking about this the night before his testimony. It's almost as if the CONSERVATIVE PRESS coordinated a message or something.

[ornotna]

12. "Everyone says it"

Is that like "people are saying"

Where have I heard that one?

[tgards79]

13. Everyone on CNN thought he was awful.

Axelrod thought he was awful.
I think he was awful.
Every liberal Democrat I have talked to thought he was awful.

[StarfishSaver]

20. Well if everyone on CNN thought so, I guess that settles it!

[ornotna]

22. I didn't think he was auful.

Guess you need to talk to more liberal Democrats.

[tgards79]

27. Oh come on, really?

He refused to expand on his report.
He refused to translate his report to a narrative that average Americans could understand.
He refused to even READ FROM his report.
He lacked command of his material.
He looks confused and hesitant.
He only got animated when defending his staff.

[ornotna]

35. Would he have impressed you more

Had he done the Megan Rapinoe 'are you not entertained' pose?



Give it a rest, I get it, you're not satisfied. Time to move on.

[pecosbob]

23. No...everyone doesn't say it. The RW MSM says it.

and you're swallowing it like a baited hook. The MSM has been in his corner from the start, allowing him to find out which shit will stick to the wall after he flings it and happily cleaning up all the mess when it doesn't. At every step in this macabre performance the MSM has immediately trotted out a multitude of reasons and explanations of why the latest outrage is no big deal.

[tgards79]

30. I concluded Mueller was a disaster while watching it real-time

And I am a total deep blue liberal. And all my family and friends agree. You folks have to face some reality sometimes. You can't spin everything. Mueller's testimony made zero difference, unless it hurt us.

He was awful.

[StarfishSaver]

39. It's usually a mistake to calculate political and legal impacts "I'm real time"

Because things usually play out much more differently than snap judgments assume.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

37. Just because somebody's not right-wing

doesn't mean that they're right

[tgards79]

8. Think again!

It changed no one's minds at all. Post tesitmony polls same as before: 47% oppose impeachment, 36% for it, 16% undecided.

[Baltimike]

10. more right wing bullshit

Remember folks "optics" is the new Benghazi

[tgards79]

15. This is a left winger talking, not a right winger

Mueller was a huge disappointment.

[Baltimike]

17. I didn't say you were 'left or right' I said you were espousing right wing bs

Mueller didn't have enough "jazz hands" for you? LOL. The conservative press was harping this 'style over substance' tripe even before the testimony. Mueller is not a showman. He is a tenacious one.

Oh, and on substance? Yeah...NO ONE is arguing that. What they ARE trying to do is conflate his information with his 'showmanship', but the latter isn't required for him to be right. Funny how they made you think it was...

[tgards79]

31. I drew all these conclusions while watching real-time

And I never watch FOX, read the WSJ or any other conservative outlet. He was just bad. It wasn't "jazz" it was:

Refusing to give an understandable narrative to the report.
Refusing to even READ sections of the report.
Refusing to expand on the report (as promised)
Refusing to even mention congressional obligations or allude to impeachment.
A lack of command of the material in the report.
A stumbling, bumbling delivery.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

36. That was my initial reaction as well

[marble falls]

2. What's the points of this defeatist claptrap? Clearly in contradiction to ...

facts. Nadler is already filing for actions based on Mueller's testimony. This is a process and its moving steadily towards Trumps impeachment in the House in spite of an as of this moment impossible 2/3's majority needed to convict in the Senate.

It almost seems like this is written in a attempt to demoralize us, surely that isn't your intent, is it?

[tgards79]

4. It's an attempt to wake you up

I'm a rabid Dem and hate Trump. Impeachment is going to fail -- the Senate won't convict. That will help Trump. And it will cause us to lose the House and have no chance to regain the Senate.

[marble falls]

6. Either way Trump is not going past January 21, 2021. And there will be ...

no Pence Presidency.

[StarfishSaver]

21. Thank you.

Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2019, 11:22 PM - Edit history (1)

But I'm already quite woke. I just happen not to agree with you.

[marble falls]

33. I finally get where you're coming from ...

[tgards79]

32. And impeachment is going to kill us

Trump will be truly exonerated with the Senate vote, he will get re-elected and we will lose the House. Focus on 2020, people! We have to win THERE! GO with Pelosi's plan.

[INdemo]

3. I want to know what Mueller did wrong or what he said that would

justify this "debacle" term.
I watched most of the Mueller testimony to confirm that Son-of-an orange peel is guilty as hell of obstruction.
Donald Trump is a Traitor.

So this BTRN is suppose to be a real OP...
This appears to be a Right Wing Rag Weed publication.. and it is Bull Shit
Why even post this Garbage?

It appears that the Corporate Mafia Media,(CNN,MSNBC,ABC,CBS) all had the Scripts drafted even before Mueller Testified and the White House strategy was to claim victory even though he did not mix any words about Trumps Obstruction of Justice.He was straight forward ..Question: Do you believe Trump committed Obstruction of Justice? Mueller : Yes

Debacle,I don't think so.

[tgards79]

5. It changed zero minds

47% oppose impeachment
36% in favor
16% undecided

Same as before the report and before the testimony.

What did Mueller do wrong???? He did not tell a story. He refused to even read his report. He did not engage with the American people. He did not rise above the dry legalese of his report. He punted. Plus, he looked awful and stumbled a ton of times, and did not give the impression that he had a grasp of his report!

And I'm a strong Democrat and hate Trump with a passion.

[StarfishSaver]

14. This is the problem with the instant gratification 24-hour news cycle we're in

The point of his testimony was not to change minds immediately upon the words exiting his mouth.

The point of his testimony was to put information into the record to be used as part of an overall investigation and possible impeachment.

This wasn't a reality show talent contest where the audience buzzes in their votes to be instantly tabulated so a winner can be selected before the end of this week's episode.

[tgards79]

18. So...

There was no new information to put "into the record." Congress already had the report. And his did not moved the ball forward on moving people in the direction of impeachment. By any polling. So how was this testimony positive?

[StarfishSaver]

19. As I said, the point wasn't to change people's minds in a day

But if you were expecting instant gratification ala some kind of Perry Mason/Col. Jessup moment, I understand why you were disappointed.

[reggieandlee]

24. Uh, yes, that is exactly what people expected...

Sorry: many Democrats were actually expecting that hearing from Mueller would turn the tide and create momentum toward impeachment. Maybe you didn't, but please do not speak as if you represent some overwhelming majority. Based on the analysis of MSNBC alone, one would conclude that Mueller fell far short of expectations.

[StarfishSaver]

38. Since Mueller's testimony, 16 more Democratic House Members came out in favor of impeachment

A nearly 20% increase in support.

Sounds like his testimony generated some momentum where it counts.

[Hekate]

25. It was not The Bachelor. Mueller is a serious old guy who is not your trained monkey.

He gave devastating testimony -- for those who were listening for facts.

Meanwhile, the House Dems have continued their quiet, determined, under the radar march toward impeachment. The relevant committee members are not recessing for the summer. They are shortly going to obtain transcripts from the Grand Jury. As of today the number of House Dems who have spoken out publicly for impeachment has topped 100.

They aren't your trained monkeys either. No roses will be handed out to contestants. This is real life.

[Kurt V.]

26. Their website predicts dems holding the house at 99% then the one guy

uses losing the house as an argument. which is it?

[tgards79]

29. Both

Right now, no chance Dems lose the House. Go for actual impeachment, the 99% drops way down.

[malaise]

28. This thread is hilarious

for some very obvious reasons

That is all

[kentuck]

34. My opinion:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212326927