Michael Hayden: America May Not Survive a Second Trump Term

[CousinIT]

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/former-cia-director-and-republican-michael-hayden-america-may-not-survive-a-second-trump-term/

While the Mueller investigation was still ongoing, the person whose opinion I was most interested in hearing when it was all over was former CIA Director Gen. Michael Hayden. Based on my prior interviews with him, Hayden, a Republican who has worked for presidents of both political parties, is a straight shooter who was clearly keeping his power dry for what he anticipated would be a climactic moment once all the facts were in.

Unfortunately, when that time finally came Hayden had shortly before suffered a significant stroke. His voice, like that of so many credible conservative critics of President Donald Trump who have either died, retired, or folded under pressure, was at least temporarily muted from the public discourse.

Yesterday, having at least partially recovered from his stroke, Hayden graciously and somewhat courageously agreed to do one of his first interviews since returning to public life on my Trump-focused podcast. The results were quite extraordinary.

Here are some of the highlights:

Hayden is very worried about the resignation of the UK ambassador to the United States and the fact that Trump consistently treats our closest allies like enemies and some of our worst enemies like allies.

He said there is “no question” that our standing in the world has suffered significantly because of Trump’s behavior as president.

Based on his experience as CIA Director, he is says the report this week that Russia was behind the Seth Rich conspiracy theory gaining traction in the American media is “absolutely true,” though he blames our manipulative news media, specifically Fox News, and gullible population, more than he even does the Russians.

. . .

He ominously concludes that the damage that Trump has done to our institutions so far can be survived, but that the United States, at least as we know it, may not be able to endure two terms of him as president.

[marybourg]

1. I agree with him.

[handmade34]

2. I am beginning to believe

that the United States cannot survive the first Trump term

[Maru Kitteh]

7. This is my fear as well. That we've teetered over some tipping point

and even the most heroic efforts will not restore any path to basic decency.

[Different Drummer]

37. My fear as well. n/t

[CousinIT]

3. Another VERY NOTABLE statement in this conversation from Hayden:

WE ALL WANT HIM IMPEACHED. But if impeachment only helps him get re-elected, is it such a good idea? Can we afford that? . . .

"What is outlined in the Mueller report is enough to warrant Trump’s impeachment, but Hayden is resigned to the idea that the best course of action would be to forgo the impeachment process and vote him out of office in 2020."

[Laura PourMeADrink]

8. Wow .that is just crazy. How in the world could it help him? That has

Zero logic to it.

[Bluepinky]

14. Impeachment proceedings should begin, so that all his crimes are known.

Then, his crimes are publicized and repeatedly condemned, to change public opinion against him. Then, the vote to impeach is taken. If Congress votes to impeach, he’s out. But if there aren’t enough votes to impeach, the candidates who do vote to impeach can use this vote against those who vote to not impeach, by claiming they support Trump and all his criminal acts and behaviors.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

22. Perfectly stated!

[bdamomma]

53. I agree with your post.

I think those who oppose will and should be put in spotlight, like why is McConnell against this so much and the rest of repigs. The system allows impeachment hearings, so bring it forth.

We need to keep on our Senators and House Reps. Never stay silent.

[in2herbs]

57. If not impeachment proceedings then it must be an impeachment inquiry. nt

[Bluepinky]

76. Yes, an inquiry to start. Let's get everything out in the open and take it from there.

Trump’s crimes have to be addressed, they can’t be ignored like Bush’s were.

[Honeycombe8]

17. People have been wondering aloud about that for some time.

I think Pelosi mentioned it. I thought about it, along with others.

You don't understand that could happen? It's hard to explain, but the impeachment circus, which is what it would be (with both sides at each other, tempers flaring), would be viewed by all Trumpers and some others as a real Democratic witch hunt. It would be a Democratic Party proceeding, unlike the Mueller investigation. That would make some vigorously defend him and circle the wagons. "They can't win, so they're doing this political witch hunt stunt to try to damage Trump in an election year. It won't work!" they'll yell. Something like that.

We might lose the voters who aren't firmly in the Democratic corner, and we need them. We certainly need them NOT to vote for Trump.

I don't know if that's what would happen. But that's what some have been concerned about.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

23. Remain quiet for fear people will blame the innocent for calling

out the criminal.

[Bettie]

29. That seems to cover it

don't want people to think you're being mean to the nasty orange bully.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

35. It's absurd

[bdamomma]

55. It is.

dismantling the US in front of everyone's eyes you know he hates Americans. He only loves his followers and he would throw them to the curb too.

[Hortensis]

25. The logic behind all possible options would be to save our nation.

We're in grave danger.

This is all very fluid, even if some streams seem to be flowing very slowly right now. We are in the middle of a giant battle for power. The best course to pursue will be the best one we are able to create as it progresses.

[Poiuyt]

11. Trump cheated once to get in office

Who's to say he won't do it again?

[Bluepinky]

16. Yes, too risky to wait for 2020. And a lot of people can be hurt or killed before then.

[Honeycombe8]

18. What are you suggesting be done? You know impeachment won't remove him from office.

That's a really big point.

[Bluepinky]

26. We need to begin impeachment hearings to expose and publicize all his crimes.

The Democrats will have access to all records and documents, supported by the courts. His crimes, some of which may be unknown right now, will be aired and condemned and, over time, public opinion will turn against him. When the time is right, the House and Senate will vote to remove from office. If they vote to remove him, he’s out. If there aren’t enough votes for removal, those who voted for removal can use this to their advantage in campaign, to state they stand up for the US Constitution, while their opponent stands with Trump and lawlessness.

The Democrats look weak if they do nothing. Impeachment is about upholding the US Constitution. It’s about the rule of law, not politics. If not impeached, Trump will say he committed no crimes because he wasn’t impeached.

[Honeycombe8]

27. The Senate will never vote to remove him, unless the Democrats get the super majority.

Dems can't get the super majority any time soon.

That gets back to the "do" thing. The Democrats are limited in what they can "do" about Trump being President, except beat him in the GE.

Some think that doing impeachment hearings will actually work toward Trump's benefit, as he takes on the mantle of a President being politically hunted by the opposition using the Congress to do so. That could help him win the GE, is what they think.

When you do impeachment hearings, you had better be sure you have a good chance of eliminating him, some think. That's not possible at this stage.

Yes, the Democrats appear weak. They ARE weak. I also think they're crumbling under the pressure of the sheer number of crimes they are trying to investigate, with Trump fighting them tooth and nail along the way on every little thing, even those he knows he'll lose. There simply isn't more time or energy for them to do more than they are doing, frankly.

I think the Mueller testimony is a mistake, too. They think it'll convince the public of something, but I think Mueller will just get beaten up and damaged by the Republicans, and that's what people will see. Of those few people who care. People don't have the time or inclination to watch Congressional hearings, as a rule. Just us political junkies.

[Bluepinky]

30. Open impeachment hearings. Impeachment is about the rule of law, not politics.

It’s easier for the Democrats to do nothing, but the House of Reps went blue for a reason. It was to put a check on this President. It’s irrelevant to worry about the number of votes right now. Impeachment is about the rule of law and the US Constitution. It’s the last tool we have to stop this President. We can’t count on Trump losing in 2020.

[Honeycombe8]

31. Nadler fainted at the microphone. They are at their peak of handling these things.

You can't separate rule of law and politics, when you're talking about politicians taking action. Impeachment IS a political action.

I don't know the correct answer, but since impeachment proceedings will not lead to him being removed, that gives more weight to the anti-impeachment crowd, I think. Because it CAN'T resolve the issue. It can ONLY have a political impact, and that impact might be to aid Trump in getting re-elected.

No, we can't count on Trump losing in 2020, esp with the group of candidates we have. While many are excited about them, I think they may not be looking at it objectively, from the viewpoint of the mass of moderate voters (who are most voters who would vote liberal). Some of the candidates are what many would consider extreme left. Not all of them, but the more moderate ones are not leading, except for maybe Biden. And Biden's best days are behind him.

None of us can know the future and be sure about what to do. Whatever the Democratic leaders decide to do will be fine w/me, since I don't have the answers.

[Bluepinky]

32. I don't know the answer either, but we need to put a check on this President.

His behavior and actions are getting more extreme and we can’t wait for 2020. We have to use the tools available, and impeachment is what we have. This is our last chance to save our country. It’s beyond politics at this point. Start the impeachment investigations.

[Honeycombe8]

41. Impeachment does not "put a check" on Trump.

He's the President. Only bipartisan actions that thwart Trump can put a check on him, and court decisions.

Cortez, et al, are doing their best to ensure we don't have bipartisan bills passed. We have been pursuing court decisions since the Dems took office in the House in January. And continuing to this day.

We have passed a bipartisan budget bill (that did not fund The Wall) (Cortez, et al, voted against it). We passed another bill or two...didn't we recently pass a bipartisan bill to prevent Trump from acting unilaterally against Iran? Or we came close.

[Bluepinky]

78. If he's impeached and voted out of office, that will put a check on him.

I’m not sure who Cortez is.

Let’s get the impeachment hearings started and find out him many crimes were committed. We don’t know all of them at this point.

[Bluepinky]

82. If impeachment investigation is opened, Dems will have access to whatever documents they ask for

including any financial records, tax filings, unredacted Mueller report, etc. After getting their documents, Dems can see what they have and take a vote if and when they want to.

I don’t think it’s wise to assume Trump’s crimes can be addressed after the next election. He cheated to win in 2016 and nothing has changed to keep him from cheating again. We need to expose how the election fraud occurred to keep it from happening again. This is no longer politics, it’s the integrity of our elections and democracy. Impeachment is not to soothe our egos, it’s to try to save our country.

And her last name is Ocasio-Cortez, not Cortez (just so people know who you’re talking about). I appreciate your thoughtful responses, you make a lot of good points.

[Bluepinky]

88. I disagree. I think impeachment will have a huge impact on the electorate in the upcoming election

Impeachment is not just a political move, it is meant to remove corrupt individuals from office. The Clinton example you give is totally ridiculous, that was a purely political maneuver that backfired on Repubs because there was no substance to it. We’re talking here about election fraud and treason, documented and substantiated. Mueller told us it’s all in his report (the unredacted version).

I have been told that once impeachment investigations are initiated, the courts allow access to all or most information requested, which would include the unredacted Mueller report and more of Trump’s financial records.

You say the only ways to hold Trump accountable for his crimes are via the election process and indictment. Well, a sitting President can’t be indicted, so that takes care of #1. And the way things are going, Trump will steal the election again in 2020, so what will happen then? It’s obvious that we need to use the third option, impeachment. Expose and publicize his crimes, vote him out of office, then indict him on his financial, sexual and other crimes when he’s out of office.

[bdamomma]

56. he's got Putin in his corner.

Who can forget about how at the G20 they were yukking it up. Warning Putin not to interfere in the election nod..nod...wink wink.

[Skittles]

24. impeachment would not help get him elected

and we all know Russia is going to double-down on efforts to keep the man who is destroying democracy in America

[Honeycombe8]

28. That's what you THINK. No one knows. It WILL rev his base, and give him justification....

for saying he's being witch hunted by the Democrats. Before, the Democrats could point out it wasn't THEM who was investigating, and it was no witch hunt because HE wasn't the focus of the investigation, in the beginning.

But when the Democrats in the House take on impeachment, that IS by the Democrats, and it IS focused solely on Trump. If you don't think some not-so-much-Trumpers will join the circle of wagons around him, I think you're not looking at it objectively. How many will do that is the unknown.

No one knows for sure, one way or the other. Me....I don't know.

[durablend]

33. His base is already revved up

And he's going to make damn sure to push it to eleven no matter what we do.

Not doing something because "he might get mad at us" is pure folly.

[Honeycombe8]

40. As are we.

Who is not revved up are Independents and moderate Republicans. Yet.

[Bettie]

36. Do you know for 100% certain that

leaving him be and not starting an impeachment INVESTIGATION will ensure a Democratic victory?

Honestly, it could go either way with either option. There are a lot of factors in play and impeachment investigation/no impeachment investigation could lead to any number of endings.

Fact is, I know what I believe. You obviously believe something else.

Neither of us knows what the outcome of any of it will be.

[Honeycombe8]

39. No. That was exactly my point. Except we do know for sure that impeachment won't remove him.

what we do know for sure is that impeachment won't remove him. We don't know how impeachment hearings will go politically. They could go either way. Or both ways, canceling each other out. No one knows for sure. Except that the end result is impeachment on paper, but not removal. Now, that may be worthwhile, since it is impeachment for historical purposes.

But there's this pounding the table for impeachment, which I get, but giving the impression (and some people mistakenly believe) that it has a chance of removing him or ensuring his loss in the GE. As if people will suddenly see the light. They won't.

[Bettie]

42. Actually, everyone I know is looking for an

investigation with the possibility of Impeachment proceedings attached to it. An Impeachment INVESTIGATION, not Articles of Impeachment, not Impeachment Hearings yet, but the investigation that gets the ball rolling.

Shine a light on it. The House seems determined to keep all of their investigations and hearings really quiet, but I guess I understand, since they are receiving nothing, no witnesses, no documents, blanket immunity over everything.

[Honeycombe8]

45. There are already investigations going on.

First, you need the records to proceed substantively. Those court decisions we read about occasionally are in furtherance of the investigations.

So the light is being shined.

The only thing I've heard House members say is that an impeachment investigation MAY give them more rights in getting some of the documents and testimony, but I'm not sure that's a sure thing. So far, they're getting favorable court decisions.

I'm not so sure that "people I know" is a good measure for the feel of the country, unless you know over 1,500 voters who are the cross section of voting Democrats, who are moderate.

No one I know has any interest in impeachment hearings or investigations (investigations are for the purpose of a hearing, so they're really the same thing, in the mind of the public).

Light has been shined on so many things the last two years. That has little effect on Trump or Trumpers. For those who care and watch/read the news, they don't need more light shining on anything.

Who are you hoping will be convinced to change from voting for Trump to voting for a Democrat, who hasn't already been convinced by Trump's behavior?

[Bettie]

46. It would allow access

to Mueller Grand jury testimony, it would allow access to redacted portions of that.

It would be another reason for courts to rule in their favor.

But, I also understand that it will never happen and the next guy will be even worse than the one there now, because we'll have let him get away with it.

[Bettie]

51. Well, given that he keeps "joking" about

being in office for 12-20 more years, I doubt he's planning on leaving.

And from what we've seen so far, I don't think anyone will have the will to physically remove him and his minions when his term is up one way or the other.

Plus, Democrats are generally nice and if the next election happens AND we manage to win despite what will very likely be widespread and extreme cheating on various levels (up to and probably including outright election fraud), whoever becomes president will likely make some speech about "healing and coming together as a nation" and then pardon him.

As I said, I know nothing will happen. I expect that he'll become president for life before the next election.

If I'm wrong, all for the better. Prepare for the worst.

I thought I had, but then, I thought that laws were a thing and the House had oversight powers, so what do I know?

[bdamomma]

59. there will be a confrontation if he dissolves any sort of free society.

be it non violent or violent. They are pushing and eliminating our rights day by day.

All I keep on remembering is that first episode of Handmaid's Tale when Congress members were being assaulted.

[Bettie]

60. I've avoided watching it

because I think it would make my anxiety and feelings of hopelessness with the current situation worse.

I never had a lot of anxiety before that November night, but now, every morning I wake up wondering what fresh hell awaits me.

[bdamomma]

62. even at the darkest time

I have a sense not to be corny but we will rise up.

This is our country no one will save us unless we save ourselves.

[Bettie]

67. I hope so

I'm still working on the "how" we save ourselves at this point, since I've always thought that our elected reps would stand up for us.

[bdamomma]

77. you know Bettie

our Reps take their cues from us. For example the Muslim ban how many did our Democratic leaders go to airports???

They take their cues from us.

[Bettie]

80. I call my rep weekly

to give my opinions. Well, her staffers at least. Husband calls too, also weekly.

[bdamomma]

83. I think we got to continue doing that

for smart people in the Congress they sure do not know the pulse of the country, and how many of us are suffering from traumatic stress disorder due to this whatever you want to call him I call him a POS, imbecile is more like it.

[Bettie]

85. Yep. Making my newly minted adult son

call too.

[Honeycombe8]

66. The House oversight committee IS investigating criminality. Impeachment is POLITICAL.

The Oversight and other committees are doing investigations for criminal and unethical acts. Impeachment is political.

Impeachment would not lead to an indictment because...it would take months of getting the documents and testimony for that purpose, whereas the advantage of an impeachment proceeding on a limited basis is that you DON'T have to spend months trying to get records and testimony on tax evasion and such. So impeachment would likely not lead to an indictment.

But the current investigations, which take a lot of time because of the complexity, could lead to an indictment.

It would be good for morale to have an impeachment investigation/hearing. And for historical purposes. But no real political or election purpose.

I keep changing my mind on whether to impeach or not. I don't have strong feelings on it. But I think it won't do what many people think it will do.

Anyone who has been paying attention and cares doesn't need a light shined on anything. For anyone who isn't aware of what's been going on, no amount of light will help them. They are too unaware of what's going on in the world, or they don't care.

[Bettie]

68. Light will help those who don't pay a great deal of attention

to pay attention. It might motivate some of them to get off their asses and out to vote.

Because as it stands right now, the right is mobilized. They tend to be authoritarian and thus vote because it is expected of them.

No matter what they find, there will be no indictment. The DOJ and Barr say that there can be no indictment of a sitting president, so until he leaves office (which I don't think he plans to do), nothing happens.

Also, when he gets off scot-free, what is to stop the next guy from being far, far worse. Remember when we thought W was rock bottom?

[Honeycombe8]

69. Right. That's what the investigations might do....get him indicted when he leaves office.

Hopefully he'll be leaving office in 2020.

There is no other way to remove him from office than win the general election. Impeachment is ONLY for historical purposes. It won't even be used as a basis for an indictment, I think, because they don't have the level of evidence required for all the crimes. All they need to do for impeachment is pick a couple of things (like obstruction), and list some evidence they know of, and that's it.

But the investigations that are going on are far more than that. They will produce detailed evidence that COULD form the basis for indictments. Obstruction, tax evasion, money laundering, violating the emoluments clause, etc.

So if people want to DO something about Trump, the options are: (1) indictments when he leaves office (criminal investigations are needed to get the hard evidence for that); (2) beat him in the general election.

Impeachment will make us feel warm and fuzzy, but it will have no real consequence to Trump.

[Bettie]

70. Do you honestly believe that the election will be

free and fair?

I have no illusions there. We're in an uphill battle with the other side spraying slime to make us fall farther down the hill.

[Honeycombe8]

73. No. If we win by a large margin, we might overcome the rigging. One argument that makes sense ...

One argument that makes sense in favor of impeaching, though, is that...I can see Trump campaigning at a rally, yelling out, "The big nothingburger witch hunt by the Democrats, who were sore losers! It was a yuge nothingburger! No collusion! Some still say, oh there was collusion, all right, even if Mueller didn't find that. But then they didn't impeach! If there was collusion, they would have impeached! If there was anything at all, they would have impeached! They wanted to impeach, they were looking for any reason to impeach! But they didn't, because there was nothing there."

I can see that happening. I don't know if that would sway anyone who wasn't going to vote for Trump, anyway. But it's an argument that he could make.

[Bettie]

74. That argument is the thing I fear

Because when he says that at his rallies, it will be all over the news.

Now, there's another thing that should be addressed, the billions (literal billions) in free advertising he gets as every crazed thing he does gets endless coverage.

Obama's coverage was minimal at best, but the disgusting circus peanut farts and it is lead story for at least two days.

[Honeycombe8]

75. The coverage - that's true.

I hadn't considered that any coverage is good coverage. That's the motto of all showmen, of which Trump is one. I hadn't considered that. Supposedly that's true.

That was Roger Stone's view, too. He's been quoted as saying there's no such thing as bad press. The important thing is to get press. There's nothing worse than no press.

In that respect, I supposed the Mueller hearing and any open hearings will be good, if they result in press for the Democrats or the country.

[bdamomma]

49. so the voters

in a broken system have to vote him out???, while they are suppressing the vote?? and there is a cyber attack on our voting system. WTF???

The Russians are waiting for us to fall apart like what we did to them, dissolving the Union.

If anything catastrophic happened in this country how many of that upper 1% would flee the country on their private planes and yachts and leave the rest of us to suffer. Maybe I'm a little paranoid.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

4. As if this country will survive even one full Trump term.

[nancy1942]

58. Exactly.

The America I thought I knew has already disappeared. Trump is merely enacting what the Republicans have wanted all along...do we honestly believe that the next election will be HONEST??? How naive can we be??? We all need to wake up and realize that the rules have permanently changed.

[Get Me Outta Here]

5. Thank the gods he's back

I worked Gen. Hayden over the years, and have fond memories of it. I had some minor back/forth with him to wish him well (and wish him back in the fight) since his stroke. I'm as blue as they come, if not bluer, but if Gen. Hayden is a conservative, he is one in the dictionary definition, and you can call me one too. We need those of his stature to ride the orangeshitgibbon traitorousmotherfucker's swollen ass out of town.

[NBachers]

19. Thank you for your contribution. Welcome to Democratic Underground. I'll watch for your posts.

[handmade34]

43. ...

[Dem Dean]

6. May Not?

It would be a lead-pipe cinch!

[smirkymonkey]

9. We may not survive one Trump term.

He has to go. By hook or by crook, he needs to be removed asap. I don't think we can afford to wait until Nov 2020.

[bdamomma]

50. too long to wait until November 2020

who else will be rounded up???? that is the question.

[PatrickforO]

10. I agree. n/t

[Poiuyt]

12. Trump has been "joking" a little too much about having a third or fourth term

We're moving fast into all-out fascism.

[Different Drummer]

38. He would like to be President for Life.

Then, on his deathbed, he would name Ivanka as his successor--again, for life.

[bdamomma]

61. Not to be flip

but everyone should apply (just in case) or update their passports. Really.

[Different Drummer]

71. Sadly, I have to agree with you.

[Bettie]

47. Right?

He's making it a "joke" so that when he declares it, no one is surprised and it just happens. Paving the road as it were.

[Aussie105]

13. Banish the thought of a second term.

The country is already in a mess.
Decades of collective psychotherapy and self analysis needed even if he was taken off the planet by aliens today. (Please, let it happen!)

Best start the healing today:
Post-it notes around the house, with slogans on them?
"Trump is not my president."
"The GOP is evil."
"I will not lower my personal standards no matter what happens."
etc

[roamer65]

15. I am prepared to fight for any state ready to secede if Dump steals the election.

If he steals it, it is time to go.

[bdamomma]

64. for some strange reason

I think this is what Putin is hoping for. To split us up. He's an ex-KGB'er, and tRump is playing with an arsonist.

[roamer65]

87. Putin is fueling the separatism.

But we are fast approaching a point of no return.

[misanthrope]

20. "-he blames our manipulative news media, specifically Fox News, and gullible population, more-"

The buck has always stopped at the "gullible population." That's ultimately where the fault lies.

[NickB79]

21. Global human civilization won't survive another Trump term

The climate crisis is so bad now, we need a concerted global effort to address it just to prevent the collapse of human civilization by the end of the century. And we need it NOW. We are at a precipice, beyond which there is no saving ourselves.

Another 4 yr of Trump's pro-coal and gas agenda, and we commit to passing all the tipping points. Forget 2C of warming, we'll be lucky to get only 3-4C. Even the US will collapse under the weight of trillions of dollars annually in flooded cities, superstorms, fires and drought.

[fescuerescue]

65. Yes but Trump is not the leader of Earth

Just the United States.

There is absolutely nothing stopping all the other countries on Earth from jumping on and addressing global warming.

It would be really nice if the US lead, with a Democratic President of course, but the rest of the world shouldn't wait for us.

[spanone]

34. America may not survive his first term.

[not_the_one]

44. What a coincidence!

That is exactly what Putin wants.

Everything is working just as planned.

[Hugin]

52. Too late.

America ended when refugee children's bodies washed up on the shore.

[C_U_L8R]

54. I'm worried about his only term

[BlueMississippi]

63. I agree completely with this author

It is all very succinctly laid out

We MUST defeat Trump at all costs

[stillcool]

72. This country is changed...

anyone paying attention is changed. We were ripe for the picking.

[bdamomma]

79. Republicans

Have sold us out and our country. They will pay their non existant party will pay.

[jalan48]

86. I have a feeling it won't change much for the multi-corporations, big banks and oligarchs though.