Joyce Vance on why Chairman Neal waited until now to file suit for Trump taxes & why necessary

[hlthe2b]

1/2 House Dems have a strong case-the law says “shall“ turn over. There’s a lesson here for those of us who are impatient with Congress. Successful lawsuits require a factual record that the court reviews. W/out a solid one, meritorious cases can be lost. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2019/07/02/house-democrats-are-filing-a-lawsuit-for-trumps-tax-returns-seeking-access-to-financial-records/ …

2/2 Chm Neal took time to get the govt’s position locked in, giving Mnuchin enough rope to hang himself & establishing there’s no legitimate legal basis to w/hold Trump taxes. Lawsuits aren’t on an instant gratification timeline, which is frustrating but important to understand.

Link to tweet

[malaise]

1. Get thee to the greatest page

NOW

[Little Star]

2. Bingo!!

[Ninga]

3. If I read correctly, Joyce notes 1/2 House Dems have a strong case. Don't know

if she means those Dems in the committee or 1/2 of the total of House Democrats.

[MissB]

4. It's message 1 of 2

[hlthe2b]

5. yes.. this

[Ninga]

9. Duh. I'm gong to take a nap. My critical reading skills are for crap today. Nt

[hlthe2b]

45. LOL... we've all been there.

[StarfishSaver]

6. Thank you so much for posting this!

This is what many of us have been trying to explain while getting shouted down with demands that Congress do something immediately. There is a process and while it takes longer than some people want, the process and strategy are necessary to ensure we actually get what we want in the end.

[CaptainTruth]

21. Yep. Many times "do something NOW" means "lose in court NOW."

And that only hurts our cause.

We want to WIN folks, & that means we have to take every step in the process, because judges do look at that & it does make a difference in the result.

[Perseus]

46. Well, before we shout success, lets see how this one goes

So far, no subpoenas have been answered, no contempt has produced anything, no impeachment on the works.

Sorry, but it seems we continually shout 'victory' to then be disappointed.

[StarfishSaver]

48. A court case leapfrogs us beyond subpoenas

And considering people that have no qualms about screaming gloom and doom with every perceived lack of forward motion, there's nothing wrong with that people a major advance in the cause.

[Perseus]

50. "there's nothing wrong with that people a major advance in the cause." not sure what you meant here

I will have to assume you meant to say there is nothing wrong with people celebrating when an advance is made?

Well, my point is that we have seen this picture before:
1. Democrats do something to counteract a bad action or get something they need.
2. Subpoenas get issued
3. We celebrate
4. Republicans refuse to comply with the subpoenas
5. We don't hear about the subpoenas anymore or any follow up from Democrats

It is becoming very frustrating that at every corner Democrats seem to make a push, it gets rejected by republicans, and no follow up, no accountability, nothing to show for. We have Don Jr., he appeared for a hearing, but before that he set his own rules that prevented Democrats to ask questions relevant to the investigation, Hope Hicks same thing, Barr gets a contempt...nothing, McGhan gets a contempt...nothing...

So until when do we celebrate? I want to see results, and things aare only going to get worst if Pelosi continues in this refusal to impeach. She now needs to be accountable for stopping any impeachment procedures. This administration is literally getting away with nurder and no one is doing anything about it.

[StarfishSaver]

52. Yes, that's what I meant - thanks

In this instance, the lawsuit is a direct follow-up to the committee subpoenas for Trump's tax returns. The issuance of the subpoenas, Treasury's refusal to comply and the committee's good faith attempts to get compliance are the gravamen of the complaint and form the foundation of the record that will likely result in a court victory that would not have been assured without them.

[StarfishSaver]

7. This is also one of the reasons that Neal didn't accept NY state's offer of Trump's state tax return

It would undermine the strong position he has in this case.

[hlthe2b]

8. +1 yes, absolutely

[wryter2000]

24. Bingo

I hadn't thought of that.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. I hope some, even here on DU, people can grasp this principle - waiting to get it right.

[TwilightZone]

22. Agreed.

[Thekaspervote]

28. Yes indeed! Our democratic leaders have learned to play the long game. Its the only way to win

[NastyRiffraff]

38. I hope so, too

Sadly, some will not. The DO SOMETHING NOW!!!! OR ELSE!!! I'M SICK OF DEMOCRATS!!!!! people will never accept an explanation that includes research and gathering all the facts.

[sheshe2]

39. I just came off reading that thread.

[LiberalFighter]

11. I support Chairman Nadler getting it done right.

Too many are armchair quarterbacks that don't have a clue.

[spanone]

12. Good.

[gademocrat7]

13. K&R!

[corbettkroehler]

14. Patience Is A Virtue I Lack But Trust Joyce's Opinion

The last thing we'd want would be to lose a court case over black-letter law due to a technicality.

Where is New York State for its part, by the way?

[hlthe2b]

16. NY offered up Trump's state taxes; Neal rightfully refused the offer because would have weakened

Last edited Tue Jul 2, 2019, 06:56 PM - Edit history (1)

the case to be made for Trump's Federal taxes previously requested/subpoenaed.

[corbettkroehler]

23. Thanks For The Update - I Wondered About That - Chairman Neal Has A Plan (n/t)

[dlk]

15. I'm a Big Vance Fan-She's Smart and Tough & Easily Explains Complicated Legal Issues

She can distill the complex down to the easily understandable so most people can understand them.

[NewJeffCT]

34. she's excellent

and, she is very measured most of the time as well - she's not just spewing whatever comes into her head. No alternative facts or other nonsense.

[hlthe2b]

40. She is invaluable to MSNBC, that is for sure...

[mcar]

17. Kick

[uponit7771]

18. K&R, More proof dems are depending on good timing to effect maximum damage. Lets pray they continue

[EveHammond13]

19. that does not explain Neal's failure to go after the STATE tax returns

[hlthe2b]

20. DIscussed twice in this thread. To do so would have weakened Neal's case for the Federal returns

and while state taxes provide much of what would appear in Federal taxes, they are not identical.

[Blue Owl]

25. Bwahahaha

[MBS]

26. Thanks for posting this.

Joyce Vance is consistently excellent. Her knowledge and clarity are especially valuable right now.

[Hekate]

27. Good to know

[Viz]

29. So valuable....

To have a knowledgeable and person of expertise in these legal matters who I trust
to weigh in on the process that the Dem leadership has underway. I feel the angst and
I realize there are others with honest intention who feel the angst as well as nefarious "instigators"
who want to sow seeds of discontent within the Democratic Party. We must weigh our internal angst
against the truth of the legal process expressed by these experts so we stay on track with the facts.

[RestoreAmerica2020]

30. The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine..

..according to NYT (May 14, 2019, Buchmann/Yourish updated JULY 2, 2019) article: Tracking 29 Ongoing Investigations Involving Trump: 11 congress, 10 federal criminal; 8 state and local agencies...ststing that "Federal, state and congressional authorities are scrutinizing many aspects of Donald J. Trump’s life through investigations related to his businesses, campaign, inauguration and presidency. "

So, it's understandable that our stellar democractic leadership led by Speaker Pelosi will wait for conclusions of congressional investigations, other agencies findings to begin drafting .and or finalizing articles of impeachment. Trump' s life of crime is being scoured, call it extreme vetting-something btw that should have been, be constitutional requirement for any president, VP.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/13/us/politics/trump-investigations.html&ved=2ahUKEwixioa94pbjAhXbHzQIHREcDR8QFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1ks1qVbcpWkpNgltM7Je5w&cshid=1562088866952

[NewJeffCT]

35. Let's hope they grind Team Trump and his enablers

like Bill Barr to a very fine pulp

[Pepsidog]

31. Makes sense

[GeorgeGist]

32. I look forward to the hanging.

[SergeStorms]

33. The law has said "shall turn over" from the beginning.

Did it take this long to parse those words? Did 'The Mnuch' and 'The Orange Blob' not understand those words?

Everything is now as it was from the very beginning. I still don't understand the prolonged wait. The law is the law. If I robbed a bank would the government wait months to indict me, all the while allowing me to run free? I still call bullshit, sorry.

[StarfishSaver]

36. This isn't a bank robbery - it's a civil matter that requires the development of a record

in order to prevail in court, as Joyce Vance says. That isn't done overnight.

And no, everything ISN'T now as it was from the very beginning. That's the whole point. Because Neal took the right steps, laid the proper groundwork and built the strong record, NOW the case is in a place where the committee can prevail and prevail quickly in court.

Are you an attorney?

[SergeStorms]

41. I'm not an attorney, but...

I can read. Does the law read the same now as it did the first day they said they weren't going to comply? Yes, it does. It's black and white, right there for all to read. It's not open to interpretation.

Are you an attorney, or did you just read the article and agree with their take on this? I'm just sick of treating this administration like they're petulant children who need everything their way. They can obey the law, or refuse to obey the law. If they refuse, our judicial system shouldn't treat them any differently than any other criminal. I know democrats think they have to cross every 't' and dot every 'i', but that shouldn't be necessary. Again, the law reads the same now as it did months ago. Putting up with all of Trump's bullshit is the reason he's president today. If people stopped putting up with his bullshit the country's situation would different today. Treating an asshole like Trump with kid-gloves plays right into his criminal hands.

[StarfishSaver]

42. The law is the same but cases don't turn just on the law

They are resolved based on how the judge applies the law to the facts. In this instance, thanks to the way Neal has moved forward, the facts are different - and more favorable to the committee -today than they were when the request was first made and that will make all the difference in the world.

Yes, I am an attorney. But don't just take my word for this. I think most attorneys reading this will be likely to agree with me on this.

[hlthe2b]

43. The problem comes in Congress' limited ability to enforce against a noncompliant (corrupt) Executive

Branch. And yes, most of us have read about the untested but theoretical ability of Congress to arrest under "inherent contempt". But, who would physically arrest Executive Branch members often tucked away behind Federal Secret Service or other protection is an open question. Woe to the poor House Sargeant at Arms if he were sent (sans any police force) to try to do so.

Thus, Congress would have to refer to DOJ to try to enforce their subpoenas (or to prosecute against current tax statute) unless they go to a court, which can call on the full range of Federal law enforcement powers (even if AG Barr attempts to block) to carry out their orders.

It isn't because the law is not on Congress' side, but that they need the support of the courts to enforce it.

[StarfishSaver]

44. Excellent explanation!

[Perseus]

47. Well said, and the danger is if they start changing the laws

I am sure Barr is working at it.

That is what dictators do, they change the laws, the constitution, and then there is nothing you can do by the law, that is why is so important to begin impeachment proceedings now.

[OnDoutside]

37. No, Neal was building his arguments that he exhausted all options to get the information that he is

legally entitled to. By doing it properly, it should mean a speedier end to court cases.

You might have robbed the bank, but you can appeal, or in their case, continually appeal to higher courts, stringing it out well into next year. Don't forget that Trump ordered a blanket refusal to co-operate on everything, even stuff Democrats are legally entitled to.

[Backseat Driver]

51. The sad answer to your question:

Yes, indeed TPTB would probably let you roam freely in public pending your plea deal arrangement to catch the BIG FISH that actually came up with the plan for the heist, but only IF YOU HAD ENOUGH MONEY AND POWER to allow the legal beagles to stretch the billable hours on for months and work out the kinks of quid pro quo with the judges! After all, you merely implemented the crime, no?

[AllyCat]

49. Mnuchin. Watched Sully the other night.

In addition to our horror at finding it was a Clint Eastwood movie, we discovered Mnuchin was executive producer. Blech.