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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPBS: An 11-year-old changed election results on a replica Florida state website in under 10 minutes
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/an-11-year-old-changed-election-results-on-a-replica-florida-state-website-in-under-10-minutes?fbclid=IwAR2Zr09QCywYCnnrLekn44VAf8eTwye5NA_FFtxmM2Af_Nv9wawXLVKAH24An 11-year-old boy on Friday was able to hack into a replica of the Florida state election website and change voting results found there in under 10 minutes during the worlds largest yearly hacking convention, DEFCON 26, organizers of the event said.
Why do we pretend the elections weren't stolen. Or wondering why McConnell is stopping election reform.
FBaggins
(26,757 posts)You cant change a single real vote by hacking a website that reports unofficial results.
Theres no connection between voting/counting machines and county websites... let alone statewide websites.
watoos
(7,142 posts)voting machines can be hacked just as easily as county web sites.
I can post a couple of examples of people doing it.
Besides, who will stop voting machines being pre-programmed to flip votes? No machines have ever been pulled out and independently audited, the owners claim software proprietary rights. Think about that, proprietary rights for 1+1 = 2.
When was the last time that Florida had a fair and honest election?
edhopper
(33,606 posts)hacked EVERY County in Florida in 2018. But people refuse to question the results.
Ms. Toad
(34,086 posts)Yes - there is a connection in terms of vote suppression, but not in terms of votes being changed.
Both voter registration systems and the vote reporting sites - because they do not contain actual votes - are less secure.
questionseverything
(9,657 posts)There seems to be a lot of confusion about whos a hero and whos a traitor these days. Former NSA contractor Reality Winner was sentenced to 63 months prison on one felony count under the Espionage Act for leaking a report to The Intercept on election interference by Russian operatives in the 2016 election.
I hoped when Volkswagen was caught using software to rig their mileage claims peops would begin to understand....software can make anything appear anyway the programmer wants
https://bradblog.com/?p=7875
Ms. Toad
(34,086 posts)triron
(22,019 posts)election results were changed.
Ms. Toad
(34,086 posts)Despite repeated reports of hacking voting systems, every single story I have been able to trace back to its origin is a report of hacking the registration system.
Those are two separate systems - hacking the registration system can alter who is eligible to vote. It cannot alter votes.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)triron
(22,019 posts)triron
(22,019 posts)Lonestarblue
(10,053 posts)Voters who voted a straight Democratic ticket saw the vote for Beto flip to Cruz. Who knows how many Beto votes were flipped for voters who just voted a straight ticket and didnt take time to check the results before casting their vote. This issue affected older voting machines in around 70 counties, so it definitely affected the final vote count for Beto.
FBaggins
(26,757 posts)First... let's start by recognizing that nothing in your reply does anything to grant significance to the posted story. Hacking the drudgereport page that says that the market is up 1000 points to instead say that it's down 1000 points does not thing one to the actual market.
voting machines can be hacked just as easily as county web sites.
Not even close. Websites can be hacked from anywhere. Voting machines can only be hacked at the machine itself.
bluecollar2
(3,622 posts)The website used to develop the programming for the voting machines can be hacked.
Hack the website, change the data processing codes and allow the unsuspecting user to install the bug into the machine.
FBaggins
(26,757 posts)There are no websites that are used to develop programming for voting machines.
Nor could such a hack survive recounts nor the canvasing/audits that occur after every election.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)A website is a DISPLAY medium. It takes in data generated and sent to it from elsewhere and makes it publicly available on the Web.
In the simplest sense, it's not going to have a two-way connection, it's going to have a one-way connection ... data coming in. And it would be connected to the tabulation center, not the actual machines.
And websites showing results have nothing to do whatsoever with the programming of the voting machines.
There should be, however, absolutely ZERO voting machines connected in ANY way to the internet while voting is going on, and I'm not sure that is the case. THAT should stop. But you wouldn't be able to get to such a machine via the results website, you'd have to hack the network of the building the machine is in.
The idea that the code IN voting machines could be corrupted by someone actually handling/building the machines ... THAT is a real and legit danger. As is someone at the tabulation center manipulating the OFFICIAL results in a scenario where there's no paper trail.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)watch a High Schooler pull this off in real time on a Diebold Machine in 2012.
former9thward
(32,068 posts)That is why there is no evidence of it in real life. People love to claim they can do it but when they are asked to prove it, they slink away.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)How would they be hacked if not? I would be interested in any examples you could post. Thnx
olegramps
(8,200 posts)I really don't know just how serious the problem is, but I take major notice of the McConnell's blocking election reform. That I the major story that should be addressed..
edhopper
(33,606 posts)he knows that is how they win.
olegramps
(8,200 posts)I believe that the solution is paper ballots. My family has worked on elections for a number of years. It is virtually impossible to affect the count of the people who voted. I have no knowledge about the how vulnerable the machines are to fraud. But, I contend that paper ballots would be the answer. We thought that the machines would be a great advancement and really are advantageous, but if there is any question about their safety they should be eliminated.
in NY we have paper ballots and then electronic scanning. A solution to safe elections.
FakeNoose
(32,726 posts)I really, really wish we did that in Pennsylvania too.
States need to keep the paper ballots in case there's a recount or something is challenged. Repukes are always destroying the evidence immediately after the election, but that's because they don't want anyone to find out they've cheated. After 90 days with no challenges, it's OK to destroy the paper ballots. But keep the digital version archived forever.
Thunderbeast
(3,418 posts)Paper ballots in a mail-in process.
Ballots are mailed in a signature envelope (not on the ballot itself). Every signature is compared to registration signature (automatic in Oregon with driver's license).
No lines. No polling places. Over two weeks to study voters' manual and make informed decisions...even down ballot. Voters have an easy method to check that their ballot has been received. Ballots with obvious errors can be flagged and corrected (by the voter) if ballot received early.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)questionseverything
(9,657 posts)to be counted openly by the public and then the chain of custody to the reporting site checked and double checked
our entire system of government was built on checks and balances we the people need to be the check on our election results
ty for thr thread ed
Hekate
(90,779 posts)...if the tally that shows in the end-computer says Trump got all the votes instead, that is what the states and the media will report.
Or, as Stalin put it so succinctly: "It doesn't matter who gets the votes. It only matters who counts them."
I hope that helps.
FBaggins
(26,757 posts)The story here is some kid hacking into a website that contains nothing official (or that could possibly impact the final results).
What you're talking about isn't a "hacking" story... it's a dictatorship.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I can go into Wikipedia and change the entry of "dog" to require that dogs have five legs.
That's not going to make additional legs sprout on actual dogs.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)qazplm135
(7,447 posts)poor, poor Fluffy.
dameatball
(7,399 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I get it... we often think only along direct lines, and ignore indirect lines as they are often too complex to easily follow cause and effect.
stopdiggin
(11,351 posts)But that ISN'T what the topic is about. People keep trying to present evidence that actual votes could be/were changed. There is no evidence that either happened. That has ALWAYS been a different argument from asserting that votes (and voters) were influenced. Hell yes they were influenced .. including by good old Jim Comey!! But NOT what this topic is about.
ck4829
(35,084 posts)brooklynite
(94,713 posts)He hacked a report, not an actual vote tally.
Why does no politician, party official or campaign manager claim votes were changed?
edhopper
(33,606 posts)about Ohio.
brooklynite
(94,713 posts)I actually asked the PARTY CHAIR of Ohio; she said it didn't happen.
Also, I DID talk to Kerry at a post-mortem on the Election (I was on his voter security team); didn't come up then either.
Republicans steal elections the old-fashioned way.
watoos
(7,142 posts)who was getting ready to testify about rigging machines?
I bet you didn't, because his small plane crashed when he was on the way to testify.
Republicans commit election fraud every damn election, that's their old fashioned way.
brooklynite
(94,713 posts)Maybe they lost the user manual?
gtar100
(4,192 posts)Yea we Dems win elections but is it because electronic voting machines are reliable or because we have to get a super majority to vote just to overcome republican dirty tricks? Maybe it's just me but it usually seems to be the latter. If electronic voting machines were legitimate, there would be no doubt about results. But humans can't be trusted so they hide behind legal veils such as "proprietary" rights. For our public elections? GMAFB. That's just wrong on so many levels.
edhopper
(33,606 posts)As in his campaign for president, Kerry has been ambivalent and inconsistent about Ohio's stolen vote count. Soon after the presidential election, Kerry was involved in a conference call with Rev. Jesse Jackson and a number of attorneys, including co-author Bob Fitrakis. In the course of the conversation, Kerry said "You know, wherever they used those [e-voting] machines, I lost, regardless if the precinct was Democratic or Republican."
Kerry was referring to New Mexico. But he might just as well have been talking about Ohio, where the election was decided, as well as about Iowa and Nevada. All four of those "purple" states switched from Democratic "blue" in the exit polls as late as 12:20am to Republican "red" a few hours later, giving Bush the White House.
not_the_one
(2,227 posts)Now we don't have any clue that there are discrepancies.
Exit polling should be reinstated. There is NO justifiable excuse for not having them.
watoos
(7,142 posts)when no machines are ever pulled out and independently audited?
The US used to send people to validate elections in third world countries. One of the best tools we used was exit polling. Exit polling isn't just asking someone who they voted for, it is a proven, reliable method of verifying the winner. All of a sudden there is a propaganda campaign to bash exit polling as being unreliable. Why do you suppose that has happened? When exit polling varies with the actual results that is an extremely reliable indication that the election has been rigged.
We need to go to paper ballots.
Why are Republicans in Pa. fighting to stop the replacement of old voting machines until after the election? I vote into a black hole in Pa., no paper trail, not that it would matter.
FBaggins
(26,757 posts)The machines are audited regularly by state/county authorities. In Florida this is required by law for every election. There's also pre-election testing.
The wiggle wording of this common conspiracy theory is "independently". It doesn't matter that audits and testing are performed by bipartisan panels and county authorities in public view and reported transparently... that's still not good enough because (as with all conspiracy theories) "they" are in on the scheme. Anyone who performs an audit is automatically added to the group of people who are in one the scheme... and thus we can always say that there are no independent audits.
Quite the racket.
We need to go to paper ballots.
Lots of precincts use paper ballots... and audit the machine counts with hand counts of those ballots. No vote-changing fraud has been discovered.
watoos
(7,142 posts)How is the software for the machines audited when the owners of the machines forbid it?
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)compiled by the machine match the number of votes they know they made. You don't have to see the actual programming/code to audit in this fashion.
FBaggins
(26,757 posts)You've documented how the system is supposed to respond to given scenarios (requirements)... so you perform lots of transactions testing those requirements. You don't need to audit the software (if by that you mean look at the code and evaluate whether you think it's correct)... you put data in and evaluate what comes out the other side.
In the case of paper ballots that are counted by a single machine at each precinct, you have test ballots and you run them through and validate that the reported count is accurate. Then when you audit the election you run actual ballots through another machine and confirm that it comes up with the same count (in some cases also running hand counts).
The owners of the machines can't forbid that.
stopdiggin
(11,351 posts)Thanks for some actual legitimate information on machines and auditing. There ARE some people that are listening. I swear!
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)paper ballots prevent anyone from thinking they can hack the machine counts cause it'd be caught.
It accomplishes the purpose, IOW.
And you really think, as cheap as most states tend to be with running elections, they audit the machines with great regularity, and with great expertise? I don't.
I agree w/most your points Mr. Baggins, but there's really no reason why a paper trail shouldn't be required nation-wide. I wouldn't trust my vote was secure in a state run by Republicans, using voting machines built by Repub-run companies, with proprietary software, then tabulated by a Repub-run outfit ... with no paper trail being generated.
FBaggins
(26,757 posts)They are indeed tested and audited with great regularity. Can't say whether it's every machine before and after every election... but it's pretty darn close (and required by law everywhere I've observed). It doesn't take "expertise"... it takes following a simple and predefined process.
TomVilmer
(1,832 posts)... but reality is not interesting for anyone!
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)that has been anti-Trump say that it's ludicrous to think that if the Russians had access to the voting machines and systems that they did not also try to alter votes.
If the hacking is discovered, they just deny it and it still creates confusion about the results and makes them less legit. if the hacking is not discovered, their chosen candidate wins.
stopdiggin
(11,351 posts)Everything that has been reported is regarding access to voter roles and registration. The intelligence person you reference is essentially saying "well it seems reasonable that they would .." And still no one is coming forward to say that they DID.
malaise
(269,157 posts)I called then stolen the same night
edhopper
(33,606 posts)even here, people refuse to accept the probability that the last two decades have been a shit show.
conditioned to believe.
malaise
(269,157 posts)big time with help from the Supremes
bluestarone
(17,025 posts)UNTIL these machines are gone over with fine tooth comb by persons that KNOW WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR! Easy to say nothing is wrong. These RETHUGS will kill to keep RUMP in there. The next SC judge is CRUCIAL to them! RED flag to me (if true) is that Russian software is installed on them!
Ms. Toad
(34,086 posts)Shit shows in terms of systematic voter purges - yes
Shit shows in terms of significant attempts at changing electronic voter registrations - yes
Shit shows in terms of gerrymandering to create heavy Republican districts in states that have roughly equivalent populations - yes
Shit shows in terms of Russian and other propaganda - yes
Shit shows in terms of massive voting screw-ups - particularly in Ohio when voters were told, for example, to vote in the punch-card machines for the wrong precincts - yes
Shit shows in terms of intentionally changing votes by hacking voting systems - virtually no possibility. I am intimately familiar with - generally - how voting machines are set up for elections, and specifically for some machines.
I'll leave off the programming details that complicate the matter - so without running through the complex programming details, it is impossible on a practical level.
Assume Trump identified 3 states that - if he could win the popular vote - would hand him the election.
To avoid being blatantly obvious, the votes shifted to Trump would have to be added a few votes per precinct to mimic undecided voters across the state(s), generally, shifting for Trump at the last minute (a massive shift in a few pockets would have drawn attention & scrutiny). Because voting machines are not connected to the internet, you need physical access to a machine in each precinct in which votes are to be shifted. So you recruit a hacker in each precinct. All of the hacking demonstrations of voting machines I've seen occurred under situations in which the hacker had full access to the machines to manipulate the machines as they saw fit.
So - to have carrried this off successfully it requries:
100s of hackers (one for each precinct in each of the states that requires a shift to Trump to win.
- each of whom have successfully kept their mouth shut for years - since there have been zero claims of people alleging they participated in such a scheme
- each of whom was able to surreptitiously access areas of the machine that are designed not to be accessible to the public (often requiring physical manipulation of the machine, screwdrivers, etc. to access) - unobserved by the Board of Elections, the Democratic Observer, and the Republican Observer since, again, there have been zero reports of any of these 100s of people getting caught.
Aside from anything else, it just defies the imagination that such a scheme could have been carried out by the massive quantity of people required to carry it off without a single person (1) being caught or (2) bragging about it after the fact. Not just once, if you believe people insisting on vote hacking, but in at least 3 elections. Even if you believe (1) and (2) are possible - step back to the recruiting for this task stage - not a single person approached to participate in this scheme, but declined, said a word bout it?
edhopper
(33,606 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,086 posts)that are obvious to any person with experience in elections and programming.
It is trivial to hack a single voting machine, when you are given the machine and no restrictions on gaining access to the machine. The actual hack has to be surreptitious - and be carried out nearly simultaneously on hundreds or thousands of machines. That is what makes it virtually impossible.
Could hacking one machine change the numbers? Sure. But hacking one of the machines would produce data so anomalous that it would be blatantly obvious. To be successful (i.e. carried out and not immediately detected), you would need to shift a few votes in each precinct - i.e. multiple machines.
Attendees of the conference were also able to reprogramme voting smart cards wirelessly, using mobile phones.
First disruption is not the same as changing votes - and would have been obvious had it happened during an election, and the results would have been unpredictable. It would have a similar, but less refined, effect as voter purges (voter purges impact a targeted population; disruption would impact everyone in a particular voting location equally)
Second the smard card is essentially a key - it contains virtually no data, other than what is needed to lock/unlock the machine and pull up the correct ballot form. The most that could be done would be to set it from voted to not voted - or to pull up a different ballot than the one for which it was originally programmed, in order to register a second or third vote.
But since the number of voters is stored separately, a machine that registered more voters than actually voted would be flagged during the post-election audit and publically reported. Further, anyone taking double or more time to vote would be interrupted. In some places there are strict time limits, but in every precinct in which I've served as an observer, someone taking the extended time necessary to cast multiple ballots (or interrupting the process to reprogram the card from voted to not voted) would be noticed.
I am not disputing that machines can be hacked. Any machine can be hacked.
What is nearly impossible would be for there to have been the massive conspiracynecessary to carry out the hack on thousands of machines and kept it secret for a minimum of 14 years.
No one, including the experts you have cited have even come close to outlining a full scale plan that could be secretly carried out, with few enough participants to keep it secret, with no public slip-ups. They demonstrate - essentially a magic trick (in which they don't even bother to make their sleight of hand invisible) and then expect me (with nearly 2 decades of experience in most aspects of elections - and others similarly situated) to believe that thousands of people could carry out the same magic trick - while making their sleight of hand completely invisible in order to avoid detection - and not a single participant slipped up, or told their spouse, child, neighbor, local barkeep, etc.
It just doesn't pass the laugh test.
stopdiggin
(11,351 posts)Again. Thanks. Appreciate you taking the time to really lay it out there. It didn't happen. But I feel like I'm rolling that stone up the mountain. Again.
PatSeg
(47,573 posts)since 2000 and yet it seems so little has been done about it.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Never before had we had election results that went against all the data we had....numerous election polls and exit polls. I didn't assume this would happen. But when the results were so skewed and against all the data, which had never before happened, I wondered...did Russia hack into maybe just a few key purple districts in PA, MI, and a couple of other states. That would work, when the results are close.
It will happen again, unless we win by a large margin, IMO. It's hard to hack the results with a big win. Too many districts would have to be hacked to make a difference.
edhopper
(33,606 posts)Hillary needed a 5% to 10% majority to win.
They only had to change less than 50,000 votes in 3 or 4 key States to give Trump the win.
They did it in Florida again last year.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Is your DU name a reference to the artist Edward Hopper? I love his art and have a couple of books devoted to it.
edhopper
(33,606 posts)and we had a cat named Hopper, but that was after Ed Hopper as well.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)edhopper
(33,606 posts)but then I am in NYC, so that might account for it.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I got it while visiting NY @ that old book store (the Strand?). Book of Hopper. I got it at a good price and love it. My arm almost fell off walking around NY after that, carrying that heavy book. LOL.
Many of Hopper's scenes are city scenes, but many could be anywhere, and some are of sea or plains areas. All of his scenes are sort of lonely, I think. Solemn. Introspective. But very interesting. Anyway, I love his art.
Great name!
Baltimike
(4,146 posts)Botany
(70,567 posts)n/t
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)dlk
(11,575 posts)Given present circumstances, this is a reasonable question. They continue to prove over and over they are not fit to govern.
Response to dlk (Reply #24)
edhopper This message was self-deleted by its author.
edhopper
(33,606 posts)Probably before.
But since 2010, when they took over so many State houses, they have been brazen.
And then Roberts helped by repealing the Voting Rights Act.
Without their gerrymandering, suppression and theft, Dems would have picked up 50 seats last year.
DFW
(54,436 posts)Florida the most obvious
DFW
(54,436 posts)There has been virtually no change in the technology, so why should this be a surprise 17 years later?
moondust
(20,002 posts)He can hire a bunch of kids next time and only have to pay them some bubble gum.
benld74
(9,909 posts)Even for slightest correction to post
Geez people!
Oneironaut
(5,522 posts)The title is technically accurate, except for the fact that:
- This was a website that displayed voting results. Its database didnt hold or tally them. Defacing that is like changing the scoreboard at a baseball game and saying that you changed the actual score of the game.
- If it was made for kids, it was probably made to allow for simple code injection to demonstrate the basics of website design flaws
- The replica site had no security in the back end, which isnt realistic.
This is why no one trusts the media. An event to get kids interested in STEM turns into ZOMG!!1! Our elections are being hacked!!1! At best, its very dishonest.
reACTIONary
(5,771 posts)CCExile
(472 posts)Is a coup considered treason, legally, if aided and abetted by our own citizens? Isn't there but one punishment enumerated in our Constitution for treason?
watoos
(7,142 posts)where a voting machine's software was audited by an independent person. Just 1 example.
FBaggins
(26,757 posts)https://www.essvote.com/blog/our-customers/idaho-national-lab-performs-independent-third-party-testing-of-voting-machines/
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Good question!
We've been trying with all our might to pretend that since 2000.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,176 posts)Iwasthere
(3,169 posts)Aaron Pereira
(383 posts)The evidence is there, our leadership needs to regard election fraud as a serious issue and take action.
Locutusofborg
(525 posts)Would have allowed Barack Obama to receive the most votes for president in American history in 2008 and then the second most votes ever in 2012 if they were capable of changing votes?
edhopper
(33,606 posts)remember how Karl Rove knew Ohio was going for Romny?
Stonepounder
(4,033 posts)Please check datelines before posting and at least note the date in the OP. Following the link and looking at the dateline:
An 11-year-old changed election results on a replica Florida state website in under 10 minutes
Nation Aug 12, 2018 5:00 PM EDT
ck4829
(35,084 posts)FM123
(10,054 posts)CrispyQ
(36,502 posts)Your country needs you.