General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAbout that Iranian SAM that took out the drone
What I'm hearing from friends who work at the Pentagon is that no one thought the Iranians had the capability to destroy such a high-tech aircraft. It came as a shock, and raised the question: what else do the Iranians have in their arsenal we don't know about? And that, more than anything, is what convinced Trump to call off the strike. He could have started a war that would not end well - for the United States. And the United States, as we all know, prefers to attack countries that won't or can't hit back (Iraq, Afghanistan... ).
hlthe2b
(102,297 posts)Surface to Air Missile!!!
hlthe2b
(102,297 posts)lanlady
(7,134 posts)I reckon I've been around DoD types too long
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)"No one could have imagined", where have we heard that?
Maine-i-acs
(1,499 posts)NSA Condosleaza Rice, 2001
despite the warnings (bin Laden determined to strike in the US, August 2001 PDB)
despite armed guards in watchtowers posted at nuclear power plants since the 1970s protecting against terrorists FLYING PLANES INTO THE BUILDINGS
Caliman73
(11,738 posts)With the title, "Terrorists determined to strike inside US with aircraft" ? which Bush ignored?
Maine-i-acs
(1,499 posts)delivered to Bush Jr while he cowered in his ranch in Texas
he told the aide who delivered it "You've covered your ass, you can go now"
then he chopped brush until he got his reelection war.
eppur_se_muova
(36,271 posts)trev
(1,480 posts)Multiple hijackings and flying into buildings.
spanone
(135,846 posts)It's not in him.
As if he would care, or even ask, about casualties on the ground.
msongs
(67,420 posts)air space shooting it down is not that difficult
Brother Buzz
(36,444 posts)The operative words are 'used to be'
Drones were presumed to be reasonably safe flying at 60,000 ft, but that was then, this is now. This is a game changer.
Liberal In Texas
(13,558 posts)Altitude 81,000 feet. (Officially)
Mach 3.5. (Officially)
They could outrun and out-altitude anything the Sovs tried.
It was an amazing piece of tech and engineering.
And to think, it was produced in 1962.
Stealthy black and faster than anything on the planet.
During an airshow at Offutt in the early 70's I spoke to a pilot who had just flown in a Blackbird for the show.
I asked how fast and all he would say that he had had lunch in Europe.
Hotler
(11,428 posts)LA: Aspen two zero we show at 1,992 knots across the ground.
A 20: LA we show closer to 2,000.
And at that moment we became a team.
Achilleaze
(15,543 posts)Are they using the republican giveaway to attack the republican draft dodgers drones?
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)trev
(1,480 posts)Hussein used the chemical weapons Reagan gave him on the Iraqi people.
sarisataka
(18,670 posts)Need to study up on Soviet era weapon systems. Specifically the SA-2 (NATO codename Guideline) which easily has the ability to hit a drone at 60k feet. It has been in service since 1957 and is a major part of Iran's AA forces.
lanlady
(7,134 posts)TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)and no doubt has many other secrets we know little about.
And it's basically one enormous mountain range, so bombing will have little effect and an invasion is almost impossible.
What surprises me is that Trump managed to see it. Must have been one hell of an effort by staff.
TheRealNorth
(9,481 posts)Our air force F-35's are fucked if the electronic countermeasures don't work.
jpak
(41,758 posts)Speed = Mach 4+
Range = 50+ km
Altitude = 30 km
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Air_Defense_Force
?quality=90&auto=webp
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Red Mountain
(1,735 posts)Iranian missile that is the rough equivalent of the Russian Buk-11 the system that was used in the downing of the Boeing 777-200ER Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, on 17 July 2014, in eastern Ukraine, which resulted in 298 fatalities.
No surprise to the military establishment.
sarabelle
(453 posts)But just thinking the same thing. Notice, few if any pundits have state the obvious. I guess they dare not speak about it. When you isolate a nation, you never know what they are doing.
My first thought was WOW! They didn't send up several SAMs. One that hit it target dead on. I thought that drone that cost as much at that one would have had some kind of detection alert system that our shit could out maneuver ??
We were warned that Syria would not be a push-over and Assad is still there. The warnings about Iran are even more dire. The Persians have always been considered to be among the smartest people in the world. They are basically gentle beings (I know four families) but cunning and crafty. They are no pushovers either and no doubt have a more well-throughout plan than the US/SA/Israel who always just assume they need only to bomb the hell out of people and never think about what follows. Iraq is a perfect example.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)our intelligence is sadly lacking.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Xolodno
(6,395 posts)It's also the real reason why I think Trump pulled the plug. There's a kind of "gentleman's" agreement. We don't strike Iran and Russia won't sell them the S-400. And Iran has for these....
Celerity
(43,419 posts)https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-usa-security-erdogan/us-redoubles-sanctions-threat-over-s-400-as-erdogan-vows-retaliation-idUSKCN1TL1F8
ISTANBUL/BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The U.S. government on Thursday said economic sanctions over Turkeys planned purchase of a Russian missile defense system remained a very viable option, even as Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan vowed to retaliate if that occurred.
U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs Clarke Cooper told reporters on a teleconference that the United States and other NATO allies remained in discussions with Turkey about resolving the dispute.
Seeking resolution is still within the realm of possible today, but imposition of sanctions remains a course of action and a very viable one at this point, Cooper said during a visit to Brussels, where NATO is headquartered.
In Istanbul, Erdogan, speaking at a rare news conference for foreign media, repeated that the purchase of Russian S-400 systems was a done deal and said the United States should think carefully before imposing sanctions on a NATO member.
I do not see any possibility of these sanctions happening, Erdogan said. However, if they did, we will have sanctions of our own.
Washington has repeatedly threatened to impose sanctions unless Ankara backs down from the S-400 purchase. Erdogan said the delivery of the system would start in the first half of July.
snip
US Warns India Over S-400 Air Defense System Deal With Russia
A senior U.S. diplomat warned India over procuring S-400 air defense systems from Russia in a recent congressional testimony.
https://thediplomat.com/2019/06/us-warns-india-over-s-400-air-defense-system-deal-with-russia/
A senior U.S. diplomat in a recent congressional testimony expressed deep concerns over Indias decision to procure five squadrons of Russian-made Almaz-Antei S-400 Triumf air defense systems (NATO reporting name: SA-21 Growler) for service in the Indian Air Force (IAF).
U.S. Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for South and Central Asia Alice Wells said in an official testimony before the U.S. House of Representatives House Foreign Affairs subcommittee on June 13 that the purchase of the S-400 defense systems could limit burgeoning India-U.S. military relations.
The induction of the new long-range air defense systems effectively could limit Indias ability to increase our own interoperability, according to Wells, adding that the United States has serious concerns about the long-term strategic implications of the purchase for U.S.-India ties. At a certain point, a strategic choice has to be made about partnerships and a strategic choice about what weapons systems and platforms a country is going to adopt, Wells said.
India and Russia signed a $5 billion contract for the procurement of five S-400 squadrons during last years annual bilateral summit held in New Delhi in early October. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin presided over the signing ceremony. The first S-400 squadron is expected to be stood up by the fall of 2020.
The Modi government has persisted in its decision to purchase the Russian-made S-400s despite strong opposition from the United States and the possible imposition of economic sanctions on India under U.S. legislation known as the Countering Americas Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA). The legislation seeks to economically and financially punish countries engaging in significant transactionsdefined as any deals above $15 millionwith the Russian state-owned defense industry.
snip
Xolodno
(6,395 posts)...Iran has asked for them and Russia has said no.
India has a history of buying equipment from multiple arms dealing nations. And Turkey, is more likely to get into a war with fellow NATO member Greece. Or worse, they plan to eventually withdraw from NATO which means, they need to start cultivating arms dealer relationships on the outside right now. Then again, maybe they expect NATO to dissolve, which gives them the same urgent reason.
Bottom line, we hit Iran, Russia will sell them the S-400. And right after that, they will restart their nuclear program...the targets to hit them were already limited given they were hardened for such an event, with the S-400, makes it almost impossible for surgical strikes to do enough damage.
Brazil could buy the S-400 and I wouldn't give a shit. But, Iran buying it is a whole different ball game.
CloudWatcher
(1,850 posts)If they didn't think it could be shot down, it sure increases my doubts about whether or not it was flying in international air space. Echos of Gary Powers.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)The Global hawk isn't a stealth bird and the Iranian Raad air defense system can reach up to 75,000ft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raad_(air_defense_system)
The Hawk has some jamming capability but that doesn't always do the trick.
" To improve survivability, the Global Hawk is fitted with a Raytheon developed AN/ALR-89 self-protection suite consisting of the AN/AVR-3 Laser warning receiver, AN/APR-49 Radar warning receiver and a jamming system. An ALE-50 towed decoy also aids in the deception of enemy air defenses."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_RQ-4_Global_Hawk
Doesn't say if it flies with the ALE-50 every time.
It is not a small UAV:
mitch96
(13,912 posts)Holy crap! It IS big.. You hear it's as big as an airliner but when you see it in perspective it's 'uge!!
m
Codeine
(25,586 posts)Im quite confident the military understands that those are fairly vulnerable aircraft.
Vegas Roller
(704 posts)and the US Navy is pretty much defenseless against it.
Iran could sink a couple of carriers and cause havoc.
sarisataka
(18,670 posts)Only Russia has a missile that fast. Do you have some knowledge they have exported them to Iran?
Vegas Roller
(704 posts)sarisataka
(18,670 posts)Their closest equivalent I'd the Persian Gulf ballistic missile which travels at mach 3 and would be vulnerable to SM 3 and SM 6 SAMs.
Also there is the not insignificant matter of locating and tracking a carrier.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)sarisataka
(18,670 posts)May have been surprised by Iran's SAM capabilities. I doubt the custodians, cafeteria workers and gift shop clerks pay much attention to Intel briefs.
However anyone with a passing knowledge could tell you any of the dozens of countries who have high altitude capable SAMs have the ability to shoot down a drone quite easily. Iran fields several such systems.
One may also claim Iran has acquired RS-24 Yars and placed them in silos; that doesn't mean they have them. Just because a weapon exists somewhere in the world is not evidence any random country has it as well.
jpak
(41,758 posts)Russia claims its Zircon missile has a top speed of Mach 8 - and it is still in development,
The Russian P-800 Oniks is Mach 2
The Russian/Indian BrahMos antiship missile is Mach 3
The Chinese YJ-18 **might** have a terminal dash speed of Mach 3.
Please stop.
Vegas Roller
(704 posts)It is a Mach 10 anti-ship missile and the US Navy has been petrified of it because there is no defense against it. The Phalanx used against Exocet missiles is useless against it.
jpak
(41,758 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 22, 2019, 08:11 AM - Edit history (1)
It's never been tested against a target at sea - only an outline of a US carrier bulldozed into a desert.
yup