Free College and Sweden, Norway.

[Blue_true]

It is often posted on DU that Sweden and Norway offer "free" college to their citizens.

That is not true. Both countries offer free tuition, but students in both leave college in debt. The college debt to starting salary burden for a Swedish college graduate is higher that for a US post college man or woman after college. The last measurement that I found had Swedish grads having 77% of the debt that a US college grad has. I could not find a similar figure for Norway.

Why so much debt when tuition is free? Rent, food, transportation, entertainment. So in order to truly impact student debt, we have to impact those items by doing things such as building modern dorms that feel like real homes instead of bare rooms, and have low cost meal options for all students.

When we talk about "free" college and imply that Nordic students leave college with virtually no debt, we should have done some reading instead of listening to what politicians are saying. That could really help us in arguments with rightwingers.

[shanny]

1. Without getting into the nuts and bolts of it

in what way is the concept of "free" college fundamentally different from "free" public education through 12th grade?

[Blue_true]

3. College students have expenses like rent, entertainment.

Some of the other expenses are the same, except most parent foot them.

In order to truly have "free" or debt free or low debt college, the things other than tuition that really drive costs need to be addressed.

[shanny]

6. Very true.

But, they would have living costs anywhere. Meantime, tuition ranges from $35,000 per year at private colleges to about $10,000 per year at in-state public schools.

At a minimum, in-state public schools should be free to anyone who can get in.

and btw, imo private schools should be forbidden to give "points" for legacies, donations and connections. We should not be doing lucky-sperm aristocracies around here. Public shaming might work, if nothing else is available--think of how much better off we would be w/o C-Plus Augustus (GWB) or tRump being able to claim some sort of academic prowess.

[former9thward]

4. You have to get into the nuts and bolts of it.

K thru 12 is not free. It is supported by local and state taxes -- primary property taxes. Colleges are not. Most colleges have a far more extensive bureaucracy than your average school. It costs a lot of money. Colleges pay professors more money than teachers and they have a far less teaching load. All of that costs money. So yes you can make college "free" but property taxes would rise to an politically unacceptable level.

[Blue_true]

7. We can lower the cost for college students by building dorms.

I truly believe that college students should be encouraged to stay in university owned housing. That way rents can be kept low. Nothing is free and college certainly falls under thst class. But things can be done to make college less expensive for students, without, as you correctly pointed out raising property taxes to astronomical levels.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. In Norway, tuition is free at public universities.

There are no tuition fees for public higher education in Norway whether or not the student is a citizen, as this is covered by the Ministry of Education and Research. Students who are Norwegian citizens can also apply for other financial support (part loan/part grant) from the Norwegian State Educational Loan Fund. Tuition at private universities is about $9,000 - $10,000 per year.

Eligible applicants may be granted financial support (part loan/part grant) of about NOK 90,000 (about $10,500) to help cover housing costs, which are not included in tuition. It is initially given as a full loan, but upon completion of the program, around 40% of the loan becomes a scholarship/grant if the modules are passed. No interest is paid on loans while the student is in school. All students belong to a student organization that helps pay for services such as bookstores and transportation. Part of this is financed through a student fee, typically NOK 300 ($35) – 500 ($58) per semester.

[Blue_true]

5. Still not free.

But not charging interest on loans while people are in school and converting a good part of loans to scholarships definitely reduce the student debt load. When I was in college, my loans did not accrue interest until a year after I graduated, we should get back to that.

I honestly think the best we can do is low cost college. Where a student racks up no more than $10,000 of debt for an undergrad degree. We should lavishly well paid fund teaching assistant positions for grad student, and we should contract with medical, nursing and dental school students to pay most of their way for 4-5 years of public service healthcare, at a good salary working in well equipped clinics and hospitals (they should not be made slaves because med or dental school was paid).

[Celerity]

8. This article explains why (for Sweden especially)

https://qz.com/85017/college-in-sweden-is-free-but-students-still-have-a-ton-of-debt-how-can-that-be/

It is from 2013, so the population is now over 10 million, and the debt load is higher but is otherwise very accurate. I know this to be true because I attended a Swedish university for one of my degrees.

If you want to dig deeper I suggest you visit the financial aid, aka CSN (Centrala Studiestödsnämnden) site.

https://www.csn.se/languages/english.html

[Caliman73]

9. I agree that we should be accurate in describing the situation, however, you miss the point.

Today, because the burden of college funding has shifted from government to individuals and is basically another market commodity, the costs of college have skyrocketed in the US. The tuition in the Nordic countries now is what it was for me when I entered undergrad at a UC school in 1991. Prior to the 80's the State and Federal government funded 80% of the cost for State and UC schools, but after Reagan and the Republicans were done, that ratio had shifted. Then came the era of loans and the competition to get that loan money by building state of the art facilities and raising the rates. A year of school for my son at a UC cost 38,000 in 2013. That's almost 4 times what it cost me.

The point however is that education improves society both in helping people to acquire skills and helping to expose people to new ideas and ways of thinking. If we want our children to compete in high skilled jobs and as professionals then we need to figure out a way to do it without saddling them with 10's of thousands in debt. Most European countries see education as part of improving citizenship where we see it as a commodity to be sold.

[Blue_true]

10. I don't disagree with anything you wrote.

Reagan was the worst thing that happened to our country. We have gotten weaker and weaker as a nation and our internal divisions have grown, all because of the trends that he gave life to. If we did not have sixteen years of Clinton and Obama, we would be a basket case now. Both democratic Presidents reversed major damage to the country's fabric.