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BeyondGeography

(39,374 posts)
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 08:30 PM Jun 2019

Third Way VP says it's time to tame capitalism

Via EJ Dionne who attended their meeting in SC last week:

...But what came later in Cowan’s speech may have been the larger and more important revelation: that the group is not offering “a warmed-over 1990s centrism.” Cowan’s critique of what were, after all, the years of Bill Clinton’s presidency was not hedged: “Back then,” he said, “we placed too much trust in the market’s ability to provide a reliable and realistic path to prosperity for most Americans. In the last 30 years, we have seen the impact of globalization and automation on our workers. And it is clear that a rising tide will not lift all boats.”

Those sentences speak to a quiet revolution in the thinking of Democrats across the board since the 2008?economic downturn and especially since Trump’s election. It can fairly be described as a leftward movement in the entire party. Sanders is often credited with moving the party left, and his proposals such as Medicare-for-all and free college (which came under sharp criticism here this week) have entered the mainstream conversation. But the language of “left” and “center” is imperfect in capturing the change. The new attitude toward the economy’s shortcomings is as much about the realities on the ground as it is about any ideological awakening.

“After 2016, it was imperative for everyone in the party to sit back and ask: What have we done wrong?” Matt Bennett, Third Way’s executive vice president for public affairs and a veteran of the Clinton administration, told me. He vigorously defended both the Clinton and Obama presidencies, dismissing as “preposterous” the idea that they were failures.

Nonetheless, he added: “We have to own some of the mistakes of the New Democrats” of the Clinton era. Among them, he said, was underestimating the effect of trade liberalization on a significant number of blue-collar workers and “the speed and ferocity with which technology would decimate certain sectors of the American workforce.” A particularly negative effect of this was the “concentration of opportunity” in certain regions as large parts of the country were left behind.

“We need to be working to tame capitalism at this moment, because it is not functioning well,” he concluded. “We need to do in this century what the progressives and New Dealers did in the last century.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/even-moderate-democrats-want-to-tame-capitalism/2019/06/19/11c9d5c4-92d0-11e9-b58a-a6a9afaa0e3e_story.html?utm_term=.b5d428a9d74b
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Third Way VP says it's time to tame capitalism (Original Post) BeyondGeography Jun 2019 OP
UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE. SMC22307 Jun 2019 #1
Ya live long enough... BeyondGeography Jun 2019 #4
LOL I'm flashing back to the many, many posts... SMC22307 Jun 2019 #8
I had to read that article two or three times BeyondGeography Jun 2019 #9
There's gotta be a good German word to capture what I'm feeling right now... SMC22307 Jun 2019 #12
Schadenwhutdafoch JHB Jun 2019 #45
... smirkymonkey Jun 2019 #66
That works... SMC22307 Jun 2019 #73
I thought there was no real 'Third Way.' A two-fer today, appalachiablue Jun 2019 #30
According to a vocal minority on DU, Third Way isn't a thing. SMC22307 Jun 2019 #32
Third Way, 'The Phantom of DU', lol/S appalachiablue Jun 2019 #34
LOL! SMC22307 Jun 2019 #35
Yes, and we shouldn't reject a free market that has plenty of opportunity for PatrickforO Jun 2019 #83
"What few progressive there are left on DU". Blue_true Jun 2019 #5
I disagree. SMC22307 Jun 2019 #10
It'll shift left after next year is my guess Tiggeroshii Jun 2019 #11
That should liven things up. SMC22307 Jun 2019 #16
Huh? Since its inception? babylonsister Jun 2019 #19
2008 is probably more accurate. (n/t) SMC22307 Jun 2019 #20
Bwah Recursion Jun 2019 #41
I've been here since 2004 under a different name. SMC22307 Jun 2019 #72
This board is overrun with Boomers who seem to have no clue what the current working... Humanist_Activist Jun 2019 #22
I'm a Boomer. I supported Sanders in the 2016 primary, HRC in the GE. This time I support Warren. tblue37 Jun 2019 #24
You are an exception and unfortunately, a minority within your generation. Humanist_Activist Jun 2019 #25
I don't know what the poster is talking about. Blue_true Jun 2019 #26
HTCR? Give us a clue. keithbvadu2 Jun 2019 #28
Autocorrect, of course. nt tblue37 Jun 2019 #40
I'm on the tail end of the Boomers... SMC22307 Jun 2019 #29
This message was self-deleted by its author appalachiablue Jun 2019 #39
Ah, intergenerational warfare customerserviceguy Jun 2019 #36
Oh please, it's self defense. Humanist_Activist Jun 2019 #50
Excuse me customerserviceguy Jun 2019 #70
huh. Traffic Interruptus Jun 2019 #79
Define progressive. Magoo48 Jun 2019 #31
Progressive. Blue_true Jun 2019 #38
"Access" is bullshit. aidbo Jun 2019 #80
Access is what it means, those things are available for everyone that wants and need them. Blue_true Jun 2019 #85
18 years of preaching it here for.me. hedda_foil Jun 2019 #18
Now I'm flashing back to discussions of... SMC22307 Jun 2019 #21
Nothing new here. Biden's a Democrat. We all know this. Hortensis Jun 2019 #2
Third Way ! lol stonecutter357 Jun 2019 #3
Reminds me of obnoxiousdrunk Jun 2019 #6
Lol BeyondGeography Jun 2019 #7
Good news. Tiggeroshii Jun 2019 #13
Maybe some big things are finally changing BeyondGeography Jun 2019 #14
All of a sudden I'm having flashbacks... Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2019 #15
My flashback is to a... SMC22307 Jun 2019 #17
Manny? honest.abe Jun 2019 #51
I found him absolutely insufferable. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2019 #71
OFFS, talk about being slow, is it the amount of debt you saddled the Millennials with? Humanist_Activist Jun 2019 #23
Wow, Third Way . . . apparently still exists . . . hatrack Jun 2019 #27
"We have to own some of the mistakes of the New Democrats" SMC22307 Jun 2019 #33
One last kick for the night crowd. SMC22307 Jun 2019 #37
If Third Way equals Capitalism and Progressives oppose capitalism riverine Jun 2019 #42
complete strawman, no elected Democrats 'oppose capitalism' Celerity Jun 2019 #43
Okay, I'm good with that. President Obama did more to curb excesses in capitalism than any POTUS riverine Jun 2019 #44
Ever? JHB Jun 2019 #46
Well FDR was a more significant POTUS with WW2 and the Great Depression riverine Jun 2019 #47
what are you talking about? Most all of what you say is simply factually untrue Celerity Jun 2019 #52
You don't know the difference between HARP and HAMP riverine Jun 2019 #67
what ridiculous things to say, condescending as well Celerity Jun 2019 #68
Well done. shanny Jun 2019 #77
thanks, arfff that was a grinder of a colloquy Celerity Jun 2019 #78
Sounds like you're to the right of the 3rd Way BeyondGeography Jun 2019 #48
Obama created HARP which allowed four million homeowners to avoid foreclosure riverine Jun 2019 #49
Clinton and Obama both gave power to people who made certain things worse BeyondGeography Jun 2019 #53
Nope, HARP was a tremendous success riverine Jun 2019 #54
Lol...a promotional Freddie Mac blog? BeyondGeography Jun 2019 #56
This message was self-deleted by its author Celerity Jun 2019 #58
again so wrong Celerity Jun 2019 #59
wrong riverine Jun 2019 #63
what are taking about? (again), and see my detailed post above refuting you completely Celerity Jun 2019 #55
HARP was a completely different program than HAMP riverine Jun 2019 #57
you have made so so many factually wrong statements, & you are telling ME I am out of my league?? Celerity Jun 2019 #60
You don't know the difference between HARP and HAMP riverine Jun 2019 #61
GOP talking points, lolol Celerity Jun 2019 #62
Again, read this directly from Warren riverine Jun 2019 #64
repeal of Glass-Steagall wasn't the ONLY cause of the financial crisis, I never claimed it was Celerity Jun 2019 #65
I know the diifrence between the two programmes, I was choosing to focus on HAMP as it was far more Celerity Jun 2019 #69
Wealth inequality is a function of Capitalism...period. Caliman73 Jun 2019 #84
K&R SMC22307 Jun 2019 #74
But there is No Third Way! I just read posts here...? appalachiablue Jun 2019 #75
EFF THIRD-WAY, created to dilute Democratic positions, moving CENTRIST w/bullshit Pragmatism. TheBlackAdder Jun 2019 #76
Good to see even moderate Dems have opened their eyes. PatrickforO Jun 2019 #81
I think it's very significant BeyondGeography Jun 2019 #82

SMC22307

(8,090 posts)
1. UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE.
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 08:33 PM
Jun 2019

What few progressives are left on DU preached this for over a decade... Third Way finally sees the light? JFC.

SMC22307

(8,090 posts)
8. LOL I'm flashing back to the many, many posts...
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 09:01 PM
Jun 2019

that defiantly claimed Third Way didn't even exist. Can't wait to see the contortions in replies to your OP, but my guess is that it's all too inconvenient and the thread will sink like a stone. I'll do my part to keep it afloat.

SMC22307

(8,090 posts)
12. There's gotta be a good German word to capture what I'm feeling right now...
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 09:11 PM
Jun 2019
Third Way even ventured into New Deal territory. Oh. My. God.

appalachiablue

(41,146 posts)
30. I thought there was no real 'Third Way.' A two-fer today,
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 11:19 PM
Jun 2019

Last edited Thu Jun 20, 2019, 12:04 AM - Edit history (1)

here's another post okaying Warren by Bennett. Wonder of wonders...
-------------------------------------
(Sacbee)" Why Elizabeth Warren doesn't scare many moderate Democrats,," June 19, 2019.

CHARLESTON, S.C. -- Many moderate Democratic leaders have reached a surprising conclusion about Elizabeth Warren: They’d actually feel comfortable if she won the party’s presidential nomination.

She might be an unabashed liberal, they say, but at least she’s a talented candidate — and she’s much more acceptable than democratic socialist Bernie Sanders.

“The thing about Warren is that she is staying within the lines of what is manageable,” said Matt Bennett, co-founder of the center-left group Third Way, who also praised Warren’s recent visit in South Carolina as “very impressive.” “She believes in capitalism, amazingly we have to say this, but that matters. What she’s offering is not a rejection of capitalism.”

“She is not tipping over the edge into what is absolutely unsustainable in a general election,” he added. “Our principle problem with Sanders is that he has.” https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287155696

SMC22307

(8,090 posts)
32. According to a vocal minority on DU, Third Way isn't a thing.
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 11:36 PM
Jun 2019

Doesn't exist... la la la la! Step aside Sensible Centrists, you've done enough damage. Decades lost. Now Trump and damage on steroids. We don't need Third Way to dictate what is "manageable" or "unsustainable."

Just noticed Warren edged out Biden on this site. Interesting. Still very early, but interesting.

PatrickforO

(14,577 posts)
83. Yes, and we shouldn't reject a free market that has plenty of opportunity for
Sun Jun 23, 2019, 11:43 AM
Jun 2019

entrepreneurs, and for people who just plain are willing to work hard. But they should be able to get ahead if they do work hard and do all the right things. Just a decently level playing field.

One of the things Obama said struck me, and that is that he felt the key to everything was in implementing good policies.

The Senator does have a definite grasp on good policy and what that looks like. I won't belabor it because this is GD.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
5. "What few progressive there are left on DU".
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 08:51 PM
Jun 2019

Way to start a winning argument, NOT!!!!!! There a very large number of very left progressive on DU. As a matter of fact, left-center types like me are a distinct minority and there maybe a handful of true centrists here.

SMC22307

(8,090 posts)
10. I disagree.
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 09:06 PM
Jun 2019

There's been a rightward shift at this site since its inception. May have something to do with why it no longer seems to get much traction, which is sad.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
22. This board is overrun with Boomers who seem to have no clue what the current working...
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 10:51 PM
Jun 2019

class go through. They have the same, poisonous "I got mine, fuck you" attitude of the Republican dominated "Silent Generation", just they are louder about it.

tblue37

(65,408 posts)
24. I'm a Boomer. I supported Sanders in the 2016 primary, HRC in the GE. This time I support Warren.
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 11:01 PM
Jun 2019

I very much consider myself a Progressive, and I am delighted to see the party move back to FDR 's principles.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
25. You are an exception and unfortunately, a minority within your generation.
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 11:03 PM
Jun 2019

Its easy to be defensive about generations, but I'll freely admit that Generation X, of which I'm a member of, isn't nearly left enough compared to Millennials, even though I'm personally a socialist and much further to the left than even most Millennials.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
26. I don't know what the poster is talking about.
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 11:10 PM
Jun 2019

In every democratic primary that I have been eligible to vote in, I started out support the most progressive candidate in the race and shifted to someone else only if my preferred candidate flamed out.

I think that trying to put DU members into camps is both wrong and a bit disingenuous.

SMC22307

(8,090 posts)
29. I'm on the tail end of the Boomers...
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 11:18 PM
Jun 2019

and Sanders was my top choice in 2016 because of his economic message. That, and his 'no' vote on Iraq. We're all going to continue to suffer under Dirty Don until the Democratic Party gets serious about income inequality and the plight of working class people. And for the record, I'm disgusted when people on this site and social media in general trash out-of-work coal miners and steel workers. Coal and steel built this nation. Want to lose PA, MI, and WI again, geniuses?

Response to SMC22307 (Reply #29)

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
50. Oh please, it's self defense.
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 08:15 AM
Jun 2019

There's a contingent on DU of people who mostly are retired who heckle ideas like a 15 dollar minimum wage increase or UHC programs etc. These assholes don't work fucking 60+ hours a week at about 12 dollars an hour. They can just shut the fuck up now. I lost my tolerance for "third way" austerity driven neo-liberals.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
70. Excuse me
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 12:17 PM
Jun 2019

if the defense is starting to look like offense. I guess it's true what Vince Lombardi said about that.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
38. Progressive.
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 12:02 AM
Jun 2019

Equal rights for everyone, PERIOD.

Equal pay for equal work.

Access to affordable, high quality healthcare for everyone regardless of income.

Access to affordable housing options regardless of income.

Access to high quality, public education in schools that have properly paid public school teachers. Schools that provide each child two free nutritious meals per day and one free snack per day.

Access to affordable higher education or a trade school training. No student should walk out of school with debt that is more than 20% of the lowest first year salary for their major or trade.

Access to safe public transportation to people that don't drive. Routes should cover all of cities and counties with waits no longer than 15 minutes.

Foreign policy that emphasizes having discussions on peaceful resolution of differences instead of war as a first choice.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
85. Access is what it means, those things are available for everyone that wants and need them.
Sun Jun 23, 2019, 10:03 PM
Jun 2019

The English language can be wonderful.

SMC22307

(8,090 posts)
21. Now I'm flashing back to discussions of...
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 10:14 PM
Jun 2019

Krugman, Stiglitz, and the size of Obama's economic stimulus package. Can't believe it's been ten years.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
2. Nothing new here. Biden's a Democrat. We all know this.
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 08:42 PM
Jun 2019

Democrats are the ones who created regulations on business, not the ones who destroyed them. In 50 years as a Democratic legislator, Biden's been involved in passing a lot of legislation, including regulations.

Republicans are the destroyers, and they were and are empowered by the feckless whiners who refused to vote to protect the very regulations they're howling bloody murder now about losing. It's always everyone else's fault for them. No need to know who, just go after Democrats with recognizable names. Why? Ask political psychologists.

And let's not pretend that all the whiners and wall-punchers here have been voting conscientiously all along to protect what those who came before, including Biden, created. Having no idea of who's to blame and who to stand and fight with is not how those who have always been engaged Democrats behave.

To put it mildly.

 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
13. Good news.
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 09:11 PM
Jun 2019

This coupled with the fact they are ready to get behind Warren to beat Bernie. Im okay with it!

BeyondGeography

(39,374 posts)
14. Maybe some big things are finally changing
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 09:13 PM
Jun 2019

It’s nighttime and I will stick with that thought for a few more hours. The devil will be in the details.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,182 posts)
15. All of a sudden I'm having flashbacks...
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 09:13 PM
Jun 2019

...to one of the most obnoxious posters DU has ever seen.

Talk about a guy who was funny only in his own mind.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,182 posts)
71. I found him absolutely insufferable.
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 02:13 PM
Jun 2019

He had his fair share of fans here for a while, but most of them left along with him in Summer 2016.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
23. OFFS, talk about being slow, is it the amount of debt you saddled the Millennials with?
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 11:01 PM
Jun 2019

Or the fact that both GenX(my generation) and Millennials are worse off by every economic measure than their parents and grandparents, and this was done on fucking purpose!

40% of households are a couple of paychecks away from homelessness, home ownership has decreased between generations for the first time in a century, savings are at a all time low, most of the working class are fucked if they have an unexpected 400 dollar bill(including me, btw). But let's not look at all the administrations that failed our generations, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2, Obama and fucking Trump administrations have a lot to answer for. At best, Obama delayed some medical expense shocks for quite a few years and increased insurance coverage. Clinton helped ensure that our wages stayed stagnant, thanks for that, asshole. Don't have any expectations from Republicans outside of them attempting to privatize what little support we get that prevents us from using more drastic actions.

hatrack

(59,587 posts)
27. Wow, Third Way . . . apparently still exists . . .
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 11:16 PM
Jun 2019

And they're here with this year's change in the sheet metal: "See! We're not that bad! We're . . . . not as bad as . . . Trump!!"

 

riverine

(516 posts)
42. If Third Way equals Capitalism and Progressives oppose capitalism
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 07:12 AM
Jun 2019

Then I am a proud Third Way proponent.

Our wealth inequality is a result of poor tax policy and both Clinton and Obama raised top end tax rates as much as possible. Obama raised capital gains taxes to help pay for health care for the poor.

Celerity

(43,415 posts)
43. complete strawman, no elected Democrats 'oppose capitalism'
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 07:20 AM
Jun 2019

Regulating capitalism, curbing its excesses and cronyism is not opposing it at all.

 

riverine

(516 posts)
44. Okay, I'm good with that. President Obama did more to curb excesses in capitalism than any POTUS
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 07:29 AM
Jun 2019

ever.

Dodd-Frank replaced the piss-weak Glass Steagall and actually regulated ratings agencies, put a "death panel" on the big banks who let their capital levels fall, stopped prop trading, set up a consumer protection agency, etc etc etc - all after fining the big banks hundreds of billions of dollars.

He fined BP $30 billion and distributed that money to victims.

Obama also replaced NAFTA with a much better trade pact (where he was failed by progressives like Sanders/Warren).

 

riverine

(516 posts)
47. Well FDR was a more significant POTUS with WW2 and the Great Depression
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 07:42 AM
Jun 2019

and the creation of Social Security.

But from a regulatory view Obama did more.

The ACA requires that insurers offer comprehensive plans, real banking overhaul, etc.

Things are a lot more complex these days.

Celerity

(43,415 posts)
52. what are you talking about? Most all of what you say is simply factually untrue
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 08:34 AM
Jun 2019

Dodd-Frank was passed in 2010, 11 years AFTER Glass-Steagall was repealed. Dodd-Frank itself which was watered down and was partially written by the giant financial institutions themselves, and has been further weakened as time has went by. It did NOT replace Glass Steagall (which was FAR from 'piss-weak'.) The financial regulation passed under FDR were far far more robust than the ones that eventually replaced them under Obama (over a decade later and AFTER a systemic and nightmarish 30 plus trillion USD global financial meltdown directly tied to their removal).

Glass-Steagall was disastrously repealed in 1999, under Clinton (with a massive push from both the Rethugs and also the 3rd way Democrats), via the horrendous Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999. That repeal, along with the equally odious Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 (which re-legalised most all forms of directives, which had been outlawed since the 1930's) both helped lay the groundwork for the financial crash that started in 2006, really gained speed in 2007, and engulfed the world in socio-economic conflagration in 2008 and 2009. All that occurred under the Clinton regime, with people like Lawrence Summers, Robert Rubin, etc working hand in hand with Republicans like Phil Graham, etc. as well as Fed chairman, Greenspan.

Looking Back at the Repeal of Glass-Steagall, or, How the Banks Caught Casino Fever

http://rooseveltinstitute.org/looking-back-repeal-glass-steagall-or-how-banks-caught-casino-fever/


How Congress Rushed a Bill that Helped Bring the Economy to Its Knees (Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-congress-rushed-a-bil_b_181926




Brooksley Born, at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) from 1996 to 1999 warned like hell of the dangers of derivatives and the massive de-regulation going on and was shut out by Rubin, Summer, Greenspans, etc al.

Brooksley Born warned about the risks of derivatives

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/brooksley-born-warned-about-the-risks-of-derivatives/



Here is a superb PBS documentary on Born and the way the 3rd-wayers, the neoliberals, the Rethugs, the supply-sider cultists, and Greenspan (all under massive pressure from the systemic-controlling banks) utterly ignored and neutralised her:

PBS FRONTLINE

The Warning
Season 28 Episode 2 | 56m 7s

Long before the economic meltdown, one woman tried to warn about the threat to the financial system...

Aired: 10/20/09


https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-the-warning/



finally

you said


Obama also replaced NAFTA with a much better trade pact


I have no idea what you are talking about. NAFTA is still in effect, as the Trumpian-negotiated United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement (which still keeps large amount of NAFTA provisions in place) has not been ratified by Congress.

The closest Obama came to 'replacing NAFTA' was the failed (and rightly so) TPP.




The TPP was a bad deal, and not just because of the horrid ISDS (Investor-State Dispute Settlement mechanisms, that give private multinational firms the right to sue and reverse our own, and all other signatories', sovereign laws), and patent ever-greening provisions (which will EXPLODE pharmaceutical prices, along with many other things).

Support for bad 'free' trade (not fair trade) deals like the TPP is partially (the percentage is up for debate but is surely more than a tiny amount) why we have such discontent here in our nation, discontent that just further adds to the latent and overt sexism, racism, misogyny, and hate that monsters like Trump tapped into. It just gave him another arrow in his quiver of poison for his mob.

The TPP also would have been a fundamental driver for further wealth inequality, here and globally, and wealth inequality is the number one interlocked statistic when it comes to the well-being of a society on basically all levels of measurement.

But do not take my word for it..............


Why TPP Is a Bad Deal for America and American Workers

BY JOSEPH STIGLITZ

http://rooseveltinstitute.org/why-tpp-bad-deal-america-and-american-workers/


the whole series

Tricks of the Trade Deal: Six Big Problems with the Trans-Pacific Partnership

http://rooseveltinstitute.org/tricks-trade-deal-six-big-problems-trans-pacific-partnership/



How to Tell TPP Is a Bad Deal

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-tell-tpp-is-a-bad_b_8914388



9 Ways the TPP Is Bad for Developing Countries

https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/07/07/9-ways-the-tpp-is-bad-for-developing-countries/



The Trans-Pacific Partnership Is Unlikely to Be a Good Deal for American Workers

https://www.epi.org/publication/tpp-unlikely-to-be-good-deal-for-american-workers/



The TPP has the potential for real harm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-16/verrender-the-tpp-has-the-potential-for-real-harm/6321538


Ending the corporate power grab of Investor-State Dispute Settlement

https://www.citizen.org/topic/globalization-trade/corporate-power-expanded-isds/



How trade deals like TPP fail the global poor

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/11/6/9680538/tpp-development-trade-poverty



Robert Reich takes on the Trans-Pacific Partnership




How economic inequality harms societies | Richard Wilkinson




 

riverine

(516 posts)
67. You don't know the difference between HARP and HAMP
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 11:35 AM
Jun 2019

I know damn well you don't know the difference between an MBS and a derivative.

Derivatives did NOT cause the crisis in any way.

Millions of shitty loans that people could not repay did. In turn when those loans went bad it set some derivatives off but only AFTERWARDS.

Celerity

(43,415 posts)
68. what ridiculous things to say, condescending as well
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 11:47 AM
Jun 2019
Derivatives did NOT cause the crisis in any way.
is probably the most ridiculous thing (out of many) you have said. Synthetic derivatives taken out on mortgage backed securities were a massive causal factor. You are the one betraying yourself as having little in-depth knowledge of the financial markets.

Also, blaming people for
Millions of shitty loans that people could not repay
is yet another RW talking point

GOODBYE

Celerity

(43,415 posts)
78. thanks, arfff that was a grinder of a colloquy
Sun Jun 23, 2019, 02:02 AM
Jun 2019

I have on been here a year, and I am only 23, but I have went back and used DU search on numerous occasions because I have seen so many references to the past history of (especially) economic policy debate on the board.

It is just a general feeling, based off only a few hundred OP's from the past that I scanned, but it seems at multiple times (especially when I end up on some older, less glossy version of this board (it is archived) that there used to be a far more vigorous (not to mention balanced) debate on the socio-economic underpinnings of what direction our Party was taking (or was moving away from).

I can only imagine what it must have been like (granted DU apparently did not exist then in any form, in fact the modern web did not even fully exist other than rudimentary chat boards for the very first part) in the 1993 to late 2000 period. Hell, for the first 3 years of that time-span I was not even born, lol.

I look back at the events (in terms of US economic legislation) of 1999 and 2000 with mild horror. It is just amazing that a consensus (big enough to ramrod through such monstrous de-regulation) was able to be formed between the two parties large enough to allow the abyss door to be partially opened up (and still left far more ajar today than it was prior to that realignment.)

Minus the consensus (utterly minus), I am sure future generations will do much the same with the 2016 onward electoral choices of our nation. Hopefully 2020 puts paid to this ever-quickening descent into a tripartite nightmare of

1 absolute, unchecked rapacious corporatism fuelling destruction of the oversight state and driving wealth inequality to socio-economic breakdown levels

2 crackpot racialist-underpinned white nationalism creating a probable end-term (for the union) balkanisation and dissolution of the nation

3 faux fundamentalist religion-run-amok imposed fascism at most all levels, from the personal to the collective zeitgeist, leading potentially to a near-complete rollback of all post-Brown v Board civil rights

BeyondGeography

(39,374 posts)
48. Sounds like you're to the right of the 3rd Way
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 08:01 AM
Jun 2019

Even they now acknowledge that Clinton’s faith in markets was excessive and ultimately harmful. As for Obama, the record is mixed. ACA, tax hikes and the stimulus package helped people but the foreclosure crisis was underfunded and largely botched, homeownership declined on his watch and income inequality continued to soar. Could he have done more with cooperation from Republicans? Sure, but Democrats lost ground at all levels of government from 2010-16 which only weakened his hand.

Warren and Sanders, even though their goals are similar, are not at all the same. Warren is a former Republican who believes in markets. She wants more progressive capitalism. Bernie is a Socialist who sees Warren’s approach as too corporate-friendly.

 

riverine

(516 posts)
49. Obama created HARP which allowed four million homeowners to avoid foreclosure
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 08:14 AM
Jun 2019

saving them an average of $2800 per year in mortgage costs.

He was VERY successful considering the enormity of the problem. He saved the domestic auto industry.


And this statement:

Clinton’s faith in markets was excessive and ultimately harmful.


is nonsensical.

The Clinton economy was vibrant and even resulted in a federal surplus. The crisis of 2008 had nothing to do with Bill Clinton policy despite claims otherwise. Millions of Liar loans written 2002-2007 were not his fault but were more a sign of economic success.

BeyondGeography

(39,374 posts)
53. Clinton and Obama both gave power to people who made certain things worse
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 08:44 AM
Jun 2019

Obama promised to spend $50-$100 billion on the foreclosure crisis. He spent $28 billion. The original goal was to help 4 million homeowners avoid foreclosure; 1.6 million were helped and 1/3 of those fell behind their payments again. It was a big, sprawling disaster, banks routinely lost paperwork and botched the process, and Tim Geithner’s Treasury Dept. was slow to force them to play by the rules.

As for Clinton, in addition to repealing Glass Steagall, he signed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which exempted credit-default swaps from regulation. Thank you Bob Rubin. I refer you to Bennett’s quote above; mistakes were made. They always are. It has just taken too long for certain people to course correct.

 

riverine

(516 posts)
54. Nope, HARP was a tremendous success
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 09:08 AM
Jun 2019
http://www.freddiemac.com/blog/homeownership/20160224_harp.page?

FEBRUARY 24, 2016
More than 3.3 Million People Have Saved With HARP. Could you?


More than four million took advantage.

Your numbers are wrong.


And Glass Steagall was worthless by 2000. Even Elizabeth Warren said so.

And the only CDS that went bad were in London (insured by AIG).

I don't know why some people want to piss on the accomplishments of Clinton and Obama.

Response to riverine (Reply #54)

Celerity

(43,415 posts)
59. again so wrong
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 09:43 AM
Jun 2019
And Glass Steagall was worthless by 2000. Even Elizabeth Warren said so.


LOL

Glass-Steagall was repealed in 1999! It was NEVER useless, it was hard firewall between the casino market gambling investment banks and the thrifts (who were eviscerated in the 2006-2009 collapse, just ask Washington Mutual, the biggest one, who was DESTROYED and its carcass bought up by JP Moran-Chase for pennies on the dollar)

Also, Warren wants to re-instate it, she never called it 'worthless', that is madness


Senators Warren, McCain, Cantwell and King Introduce 21st Century Glass-Steagall Act

https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/senators-warren-mccain-cantwell-and-king-introduce-21st-century-glass-steagall-act

Introduction Follows Announcements of Support for Reinstating Glass-Steagall from the President and Administration, Inclusion in Both Democratic and Republican Party Platforms

Bill Text (PDF)

Washington, D.C. - United States Senators Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), John McCain (R-Ariz.), Maria Cantwell (D-Wash.), and Angus King (I-Maine) today will re-introduce the 21st Century Glass-Steagall Act, a modern version of the Banking Act of 1933 (Glass-Steagall) that protects American taxpayers, helps community banks and credit unions compete, and decreases the likelihood of future financial crises. Reinstating Glass-Steagall has broad bipartisan support from the public and policymakers, including from President Trump, Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, and National Economic Council Director Gary Cohn. Both the 2016 Democratic and Republican party platforms supported reinstating Glass-Steagall.

The legislation, first introduced in the 113th Congress by Senators Warren, McCain, Cantwell and King, would separate traditional banks that have savings and checking accounts and are insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation from riskier financial institutions that offer services such as investment banking, insurance, swaps dealing, and hedge fund and private equity activities. The bill would clarify regulatory interpretations of banking law provisions that undermined the protections under the original Glass-Steagall and would make "Too Big to Fail" institutions smaller and safer, minimizing the likelihood of a government bailout.



and

And the only CDS that went bad were in London (insured by AIG).


is utterly FALSE, blatantly so, trillions were lost globally, huge amounts of that OTC-traded credit default swaps, AIG was but one entity that was crushed (just ask the COUNTRY of Greece, hello Goldman Sachs!)

The Crisis of Wealth Destruction

http://rooseveltinstitute.org/crisis-wealth-destruction/

Henry C.K. Liu argues that the poorly targeted stimulus and bailouts have caused long-lasting damage to global wealth.

The financial crisis that first broke out in the US around the summer of 2007 and crested around the autumn of 2008 had destroyed $34.4 trillion of wealth globally by March 2009, when the equity markets hit their lowest points. On October 31, 2007, the total market value of publicly-traded companies around the world reached a high of $63 trillion. A year and four months later, by early March 2009, the value had dropped more than half to $28.6 trillion. The lost wealth, $34.4 trillion, is more than the 2008 annual gross domestic product (GDP) of the US, the European Union and Japan combined. This wealth deficit effect would take at least a decade to replenish even if these advanced economies were to grow at mid single digit rate after inflation and only if no double dip materializes in the markets. At an optimistic componded annual growth rate of 5%, it would take over 10 years to replenish the lost wealth in the US economy.

In the US where the crisis originated in mid-2007 after two decades of monetary excess that encouraged serial debt bubbles, the NYSE Euronext (US) market capitalization was $16.6 trillion in June 2007, more than concurrent US GDP of $13.8 trillion. The market cap fell by almost half to $7.9 trillion by March 2009. US households lost almost $8 trillion of wealth in the stock market on top of the $6 trillion loss in the market value of their homes. The total wealth loss of $14 trillion by US households in 2009 was equal to the entire 2008 US GDP. As the financial crisis broke out first in the US in July 2007, world market capitalization took some time to feel the full impact of contagion radiating from New York which did not register fully globally until after October 2007. In 2008 alone, market capitalization in EAME (Europe – Africa – Middle East) economies lost $10 trillion and Asian shares lost around $9.6 trillion.

Government Bailouts, Stimulus Packages and Jobless Recovery

As a result of over $20 trillion of government bailout/stimulus commitments/spending that began in 2008 worldwide, the critically impaired global equity markets finally began to show tenuous signs of stabilization only two years later by the end of 2009. Yet total world market capitalization was still only $46.6 trillion by the end of January 2010, $16.4 trillion below its peak in October 2007. The amount of wealth lost worldwide in 2009 still exceeded 2009 US GDP of $14.2 trillion by $2.2 trillion. The NYSE Euronext (US) market capitalization was $12.2 trillion in January 2010, recovering from its low at $7.9 trillion in March 2009, but still $4.4 trillion below its peak at $16.6 trillion in June 2007.

US GDP in first quarter 2009 fell 6.3% annualized rate while fourth quarter of 2009 surged 5.7% mostly as a result of public sector spending equaling over 60% of annual GDP. The US government bailout and stimulus package to respond to the financial crisis added up to $9.7 trillion, enough to pay off more than 90% of the nation’s home mortgages, calculated at $10.5 trillion by the Federal Reserve. Yet home foreclosure rate continued to climb because only distressed financial institutions were bailed out, but not distressed homeowners. Take away public sector spending, US GDP would fall by over 50%. This is the reason why no exit strategy can be expected to be implemented soon in the US.

It took $20 trillion of public funds over a period of two and a half years to lift the total world market capitalization of listed companies by $16.4 trillion. This means some $3.6 trillion, or 17.5%, had been burned up by transmission friction. Government intervention failed to produce a dollar-for-dollar break-even impact on battered markets, let alone generating any multiplier effect which in normal time could be expected to generate a multiplying effect of between 9 and 11 times. In the mean time, the real global economy, detached from the equity markets, with the exception of China’s, continues to slide downward, with rising unemployment and underemployment.


snip

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/finance/credit-default-swap-cds/

What is a Credit Default Swap (CDS)?

A credit default swap (CDS) is a type of credit derivative that provides the buyer with protection against default and other risks. The buyer of a CDS makes periodic payments to the seller until the credit maturity date. In the agreement, the seller commits that, if the debt issuer defaults, the seller will pay the buyer all premiums and interests that would’ve been paid up to the date of maturity.

Through a credit swap, a buyer can take risk control measures by shifting the risk to an insurance company in exchange for periodic payments. Just like an insurance policy, a CDS allows purchasers to buy protection against an unlikely event that may affect the investment.

Credit default swaps came into existence in 1994 when they were invented by Blythe Masters from JP Morgan. They became popular in the early 2000s, and by 2007, the outstanding credit default swaps value stood at $62.2 trillion. During the financial crisis of 2008, the value of CDS was hit hard, and it dropped to $26.3 trillion by 2010 and $25.5 trillion in 2012. There was no legal framework to regulate swaps, and the lack of transparency in the market became a concern among regulators.


snip



 

riverine

(516 posts)
63. wrong
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 09:51 AM
Jun 2019
When I called Ms. Warren and pressed her about whether she thought the financial crisis or JPMorgan’s losses could have been avoided if Glass-Steagall were in place, she conceded: “The answer is probably ‘No’ to both.”



https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/reinstating-an-old-rule-is-not-a-cure-for-crisis/

Glass Steagall did not apply to investment banks Goldman, Lehman, Morgan Stanley, Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch and thousands of small banks.

Celerity

(43,415 posts)
55. what are taking about? (again), and see my detailed post above refuting you completely
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 09:17 AM
Jun 2019


number one, is was HAMP, not HARP, that was the most problematic programme and it was not 4 million helped by HARP in any regard

see here:

Obama’s Foreclosure Relief Program Was Designed to Help Bankers, Not Homeowners


https://billmoyers.com/2015/02/14/needless-default/

snip

Politicians, economists and commentators are debating the causes of the rise in inequality of income and wealth. But one primary cause is beyond debate: the housing collapse, and the government’s failure to remedy the aftermath. According to economists Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman, the bottom 90 percent of Americans saw one-third of their wealth wiped out between 2007 and 2009, and there has been no recovery since. This makes sense, as a great deal of the wealth held by the middle and working classes, particularly among African-Americans and Hispanics, is in home equity, much of which evaporated after the bubble popped. The effects have been most severe in poor and working-class neighborhoods, where waves of foreclosure drove down property values, even on sound, well-financed homes. Absent a change in policy, Saez and Zucman warn, “all the gains in wealth democratization achieved during the New Deal and the postwar decades could be lost.”

President Obama will carry several legacies into his final two years in office: a long-sought health care reform, a fiscal stimulus that limited the impact of the Great Recession, a rapid civil rights advance for gay and lesbian Americans. But if Obama owns those triumphs, he must also own this tragedy: the dispossession of at least 5.2 million US homeowner families, the explosion of inequality, and the largest ruination of middle-class wealth in nearly a century. Though some policy failures can be blamed on Republican obstruction, it was within Obama’s power to remedy this one — to ensure that a foreclosure crisis now in its eighth year would actually end, with relief for homeowners to rebuild wealth, and to preserve Americans’ faith that their government will aid them in times of economic struggle.

Faced with numerous options to limit the foreclosure damage, the administration settled on a policy called HAMP, the Home Affordable Modification Program, which was entirely voluntary. Under HAMP, mortgage companies were given financial inducements to modify loans for at-risk borrowers, but the companies alone, not the government, made the decisions on whom to aid and whom to cast off.

In the end, HAMP helped only about one million homeowners in five years, when 10 million were at risk. The program arguably created more foreclosures than it stopped, as it put homeowners through a maze of deception designed mainly to maximize mortgage industry profits. More about how HAMP worked, or didn’t, in a moment.

HAMP cannot be justified by the usual Obama-era logic, that it represented the best possible outcome in a captured Washington with Republican obstruction and supermajority hurdles. Before Obama’s election, Congress specifically authorized the executive branch, through the $700 billion bank bailout known as TARP, to “prevent avoidable foreclosures.” And Congress pointedly left the details up to the next president. Swing senators like Olympia Snowe (Maine), Ben Nelson (Nebraska) and Susan Collins (Maine) played no role in HAMP’s design. It was entirely a product of the administration’s economic team, working with the financial industry, so it represents the purest indication of how they prioritized the health of financial institutions over the lives of homeowners.

snip


also you said

The Clinton economy was vibrant and even resulted in a federal surplus.




the 'surplus' was a mirage, it resulted from a change in the national accounting ledgers


https://treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current

Here is a table of the national debt and the claimed surpluses for the last 4 Clinton fiscal years:




Notice that while the public debt went down in each of those four years, the intragovernmental holdings went up each year by a far greater amount.....and, in turn, the total national debt (which is public debt + intragovernmental holdings) went up.

That is how a 'surplus' was claimed.

The national debt went up every single year. What the government did do was pay down the public debt (the claimed 'surplus' is fairly close to the decrease in the public debt for those years). But it paid down the public debt by borrowing far more money in the form of intragovernmental holdings (mostly from Social Security).
 

riverine

(516 posts)
57. HARP was a completely different program than HAMP
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 09:23 AM
Jun 2019
HARP Refinances Surpass 3.4 Million
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
5/16/2016
Washington, D.C. – The Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) today announced that more than 3.4 million homeowners have refinanced their mortgages through the Home Affordable Refinance Program (HARP). FHFA's first quarter Refinance Report shows that more than 19,000 HARP refinances were completed through March, bringing the total to 3,400,543 refinances since the program began in 2009.


https://www.fhfa.gov/Media/PublicAffairs/Pages/HARP-Refinances-Surpass-3-4-Million.aspx



And Treasury debt did climb for statutory reasons -- Social Security MUST invest surpluses into special issue US Treasuries. Thus "debt" climbs in a great economy.


You're way out of your league here, pal.

If you want to go bash Democrats please go to Breitbart.

Celerity

(43,415 posts)
60. you have made so so many factually wrong statements, & you are telling ME I am out of my league??
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 09:45 AM
Jun 2019

roflmaooooooooooooooo

so done

 

riverine

(516 posts)
61. You don't know the difference between HARP and HAMP
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 09:48 AM
Jun 2019

and you spew GOP talking points about the Clinton economy.

You don't know how SS surpluses are invested into Treasuries.

You don't know that Warren said that Glass Steagall was antiquated and would not have prevented the 2008 Banking Crisis.

Celerity

(43,415 posts)
62. GOP talking points, lolol
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 09:50 AM
Jun 2019
You don't know that Warren said that Glass Steagall was antiquated and would not have prevented the 2008 Banking Crisis.


is just factually wrong on every single point, as I have meticulously shown
 

riverine

(516 posts)
64. Again, read this directly from Warren
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 09:54 AM
Jun 2019
https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/reinstating-an-old-rule-is-not-a-cure-for-crisis/

When I called Ms. Warren and pressed her about whether she thought the financial crisis or JPMorgan’s losses could have been avoided if Glass-Steagall were in place, she conceded: “The answer is probably ‘No’ to both.”

Celerity

(43,415 posts)
65. repeal of Glass-Steagall wasn't the ONLY cause of the financial crisis, I never claimed it was
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 10:04 AM
Jun 2019

AND this whole thing started out with YOU positing a what has been a 'GOP talking point',by trying to intimate that progressives oppose capitalism as your way of defending the vastly discredited 3rd-way schema



that is pure RW tosh

Celerity

(43,415 posts)
69. I know the diifrence between the two programmes, I was choosing to focus on HAMP as it was far more
Thu Jun 20, 2019, 12:01 PM
Jun 2019

problematic (as evidenced by my linked article), I amended my original post for clarity in that regard.

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
84. Wealth inequality is a function of Capitalism...period.
Sun Jun 23, 2019, 11:49 AM
Jun 2019

Without significant policies that interfere with the structure of capitalism, the system will ALWAYS end up promoting wealth inequality. To not understand that is to fail basic economics.

appalachiablue

(41,146 posts)
75. But there is No Third Way! I just read posts here...?
Sat Jun 22, 2019, 11:22 PM
Jun 2019

And today SE Cupp on CNN did a segment with Third Way head, MATT BENNETT. Huh?

TheBlackAdder

(28,209 posts)
76. EFF THIRD-WAY, created to dilute Democratic positions, moving CENTRIST w/bullshit Pragmatism.
Sat Jun 22, 2019, 11:46 PM
Jun 2019

.

Republicans are not pragmatic. They are hardened to their positions.

Pragmatism is a fallacy if one or more of the parties are not pragmatic.

Starting a negotiation at the 50 yard line ensures the best possible outcome of half, worse a complete loss.


This favors Republicans.

.

PatrickforO

(14,577 posts)
81. Good to see even moderate Dems have opened their eyes.
Sun Jun 23, 2019, 03:07 AM
Jun 2019

Now, I'm definitely to the left of center, but that last sentence, “We need to be working to tame capitalism at this moment, because it is not functioning well,” he concluded. “We need to do in this century what the progressives and New Dealers did in the last century,” that is quite, quite true.

See, I'm worried. Have been. Am writing seriously now about the corrosive effect of the primacy of the shareholder doctrine on everything.

Now, when I see that sentence, I feel some hope that it isn't just the lefties that are saying stuff like this, but the centrists too.

If we have another New Deal, I'm IN. It isn't perfect, and we aren't perfect. But I'm seeing that everyone except a few kluxers and nazis want good change. Healthcare, affordable college, and aggressive efforts to build up infrastructure in the context of a Green New Deal. That's what I want.

BeyondGeography

(39,374 posts)
82. I think it's very significant
Sun Jun 23, 2019, 06:21 AM
Jun 2019

When most people are moving sideways-to-down financially while a tiny sliver hoovers up the bulk of the gains, solutions that would have been considered radical even ten years ago are needed. Trump won by 74 EVs in no small part because enough voters thought his economic rhetoric was more responsive reality than ours. It was a scam, but even the Third Way has recognized that our political and economic playbook is sorely in need of an update.

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