General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsis it ignorance of the law or just ignorance?
Mininski act
. Froze assets and refused travel to the united states for violators
Putins response
.. Stopped adoption of Russian children by Americans
That is the real 'in a nutshell history'.
Those little details never broke through the whats in it for me radar for some.
Then we have the trump tower meeting.
Dirt on Hilary! Were in.
The lawyer starts talking about adoption. WHAT! Adoption! What, you promised us dirt@!!!!
She is trying to lay out the quid pro AND quo. She is trying to tell you, explain to you what Putin wants.
Ding and dong had absolutely no idea what she was talking about. Manafort knew. He hung out in the corner waiting for his whats in it for me moment.
Here is my question. I am reading the Muller report (get paper copy, read it and have a highlighter handy). If the lawyer says you can have the dirt, this is what I want in exchange.
Ding and dong say yes, we want the dirt but are too ignorant to understand, literally too ignorant to understand what Putin wants. How can that not be coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated the trump campaign? Are you accepting ignorance as an excuse?
Response to NYETNYET (Original post)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)"The Office considered whether to charge Trump Campaign officials with crimes in connection with the June 9 meeting described in Volume I, Section IV.A.5, supra. The Office concluded that, in light of the government's substantial burden of proof on issues of intent ("knowing" and "willful" , and the difficulty of establishing the value of the offered information, criminal charges would not meet the Justice Manual standard that "the admissible evidence will probably be sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction." Justice Manual§ 9-27.220. . . . . .
"The Office considered whether this evidence would establish a conspiracy to violate the foreign contributions ban, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371 ; the solicitation of an illegal foreignsource contribution; or the acceptance or receipt of "an express or implied promise to make a [foreign-source] contribution," both in violation of 52 U.S.C. § 3012l(a)(l)(A), (a)(2). There are
reasonable arguments that the offered information would constitute a "thing of value" within the meaning of these provisions, but the Office determined that the government would not be likely to obtain and sustain a conviction for two other reasons: first, the Office did not obtain admissible evidence likely to meet the government's burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these individuals acted "willfully," i.e., with general knowledge of the illegality of their conduct; and, second, the government would likely encounter difficulty in proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the value of the promised information exceeded the threshold for a criminal violation, see 52 U.S.C. § 30109(d)(l)(A)(i). . . . . . "
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After that, it's kind of difficult to prosecute those two when the chief investigator let them off the hook. Mueller sure spent a lot of time saving everyone in trump's campaign by contorting his findings.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)- meaning it's not enough that the target intended to engage in the act that would constitute the crime, but intentionally enters an agreement with one or more other people to enter into a conspiracy and thereafter commits acts in furtherance of that conspiracy - and it's very difficult to prove intent beyond a reasonable doubt in most cases, and it would be particularly hard in this case. That combined with the difficulty in proving the value of the information was enough to trigger the criminal statute made it a very shaky case for a prosecutor to charge.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)before we found out about him? How about Fitzgerald?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)I'm trying to explain the law to you.
Your questions about Avennati and Fitzgerald are off-point and, frankly, pretty silly.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)sometimes on purpose.
Mueller wimped out, while padding his retirement. He left us with Obstruction, knowing it would never take trump down. Now he's hiding.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Why is it that people have to do what you are doing right here?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)and all but precluded any chance of getting trump or his campaign.
I don't really think it is hostile, because we both want the same thing -- trump gone. I just think Mueller essentially cut off one avenue of removing trump that we've been banking on for two years. He thinks we'll get trump, notwithstanding Mueller's cruddy report.
Actually, I hope he's right and I have to eat crow dung. But, thanks for asking.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #2)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Response to Hoyt (Reply #7)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)to protect trump's family, assuming you could even impanel a jury without a few white wingers who'd hang the jury.
I'm not happy about this. In fact, I'd love for Mueller to stammer through a Congressional hearing trying to explain why he let trump and his campaign off. Mueller knows Obstruction isn't going to take trump down.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #10)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)report that lets trump and his family walk.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #16)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)That's what he did May 29th, said nothing new.
Worse, they will ask him if anyone told him what to do. He will say "No," giving more cover to trump. In the end, we'll be even worse off after he testifies.
Maybe you should consider whether your trust in Mueller is nonsense.
I learned my lesson with Fitzgerald. Used to wake up several times at night, just knowing he locked Cheney and bush up for lying us into war with Iraq, killing several hundred thousand innocent Iraqis, and killing twice as many of our guys than died on 9/11. I learned my lesson, and didn't fall for the Mueller, or Avenatti, BS.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #18)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Just like Fitzgerald, we all believed in Mueller. In the end, he gave us a report that says 21 times he could not identify evidence that could be used to prosecute trump, his kids, or members of his campaign for working with the Russians. That was the main contention that might lead to removing trump from office and jail time for his campaign aides.
I don't believe an objective, or at least earnest, investigator would have come to those conclusions.
So, in the end, Mueller had Manafort and Cohen jailed, mostly for crimes unrelated to the trump campaign and the election. That's not much.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #22)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)whatever you want to call it because trump, his campaign, witnesses, etc., lied, obstructed justice, misled investigators, etc.
All 21 times he used his hotkey -- "We did not identify evidence," he should have pushed another hot-key that added because the bastards are covering for the trump family . . . . .
He didn't. He usually said the prosecutorial criteria weren't met.
My argument is not that trump isn't guilty. Heck, we saw him lie and obstruct on live TV. My argument is that Mueller helped him escape, to our detriment. Turns out, Mueller is an accomplice in this whole thing.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)They said they "did not obtain admissible evidence likely to meet the government's burden" in their investigation. That's very different.
They can still be charged in the future, especially if more evidence is uncovered, which likely will happen
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I doubt seriously if anything new will come out of the trump tower meeting. Now, maybe they'll find something from another meeting on another day, but even that seems unlikely. But keep hoping. My money says we'll be still hoping right up to the election, and wasting a whole lot of time.