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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm starting to really realize this is over
The Senate, the Executive Branch, the DOJ, the SCOTUS and all we have is the House which seems fixated on accommodating the other side.
2020 will be even more rigged.
I'm pretty down now.
Any hope out there?
Kaleva
(36,312 posts)Why?
Kaleva
(36,312 posts)We have a very good chance of narrowing the gap in the Senate and will most certainly retain the House in 2020. Trump has his fanatical diehard base but he hasn't been able to build upon that.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)I am not among them. I think the system is working, and inching, however slowly, toward justice.
When it comes to investigating a president, the special counsel regulations I had the privilege of drafting in 1998-99 say that such inquiries have one ultimate destination: Congress. That is where this process is going, and has to go. We are in the fifth inning, and we should celebrate a system in which our own government can uncover so much evidence against a sitting president.
Some commentators have attacked the special counsel regulations as giving the attorney general the power to close a case against the president, as Mr. Barr did with the obstruction of justice investigation into Donald Trump. But the critics complaint here is not with the regulations but with the Constitution itself. Article II gives the executive branch control over prosecutions, so there isnt an easy way to remove the attorney general from the process.
Instead, the idea behind the regulations was to say, We recognize the constitutional reality that the attorney general controls the prosecution power, so what else can we do? My colleagues and I (which included many career officials at the Justice Department as well as bipartisan leaders in the House and Senate) settled on two things. First, provide a mechanism to enable an independent investigation, and thereby generate public confidence in the outcome of that investigation. Second, design that mechanism so that if the attorney general interferes with the special counsels inquiry, that interference would be reported to Congress and ultimately become public.
The underappreciated story right now is that weve not only learned that it was Mr. Barr and pointedly not Mr. Mueller who decided to clear President Trump of the obstruction charges, but also discovered the reasoning behind Mr. Barrs decision. The American public and Congress now have the facts and evidence before them. The sunlight the regulations sought is shining. ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/opinion/barr-mueller-report.html?searchResultPosition=
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Good information and understanding the situation makes you feel more in control. And I like that in the fifth inning bit.
oregonjen
(3,338 posts)<snip>
Many who watched Attorney General William Barrs testimony on Wednesday before the Senate Judiciary Committee, which followed the revelation that the special counsel Robert Mueller had expressed misgivings about Mr. Barrs characterization of his report, are despairing about the rule of law. I am not among them. I think the system is working, and inching, however slowly, toward justice.
When it comes to investigating a president, the special counsel regulations I had the privilege of drafting in 1998-99 say that such inquiries have one ultimate destination: Congress. That is where this process is going, and has to go. We are in the fifth inning, and we should celebrate a system in which our own government can uncover so much evidence against a sitting president.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)But laws and rules aren't being followed.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)Margins that would have given Clinton the win. Thus, I think we can beat them.
watoos
(7,142 posts)on the machines in 2020. The Pa. state Senate just voted to delay installing new voting machines. I vote in Pa. and vote into a black hole, no paper trail not that it would matter, no machines are ever pulled out and independently audited.
Who is to say that if Trump loses in 2020 that he will step aside? He will claim the election was rigged and stay in power.
The best option that I see is one given by Katyal, defund the office of AG, take away the money from anyone who obstructs justice.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Nuggets
(525 posts)all of the Republican controlled states have a list of every registered Democrat in the US thanks to the Presidential Advisory Committee for Election Integrity. They can easily knock them off voter rolls.
They also have DNC voter info from their hack in 2016.
Plus FB and Twitter arent exactly worried about stopping the fake news or tweets planted by the Republicans and Russians. They are pretty good at pretending to care, but always manage to close the barn door after all the horses escaped.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... lead state that initiated some kind of voter suppression measures.
Nuggets
(525 posts)Legal as any cases will either go to the now packed federal courts or the packed SCOTUS.
States purged 16 million voters from the rolls before the 2016 election, according to the Brennan Center for Justice.
You just know they got those Democratic voters names and addresses by hacking the DNC while simultaneously whaling about Sanders having the primaries rigged against him for cover.
Sociopaths are excellent at bludgeoning you with your own morals and using the laws towards their own evil interests.
For instance, people like Trump turning our justice system into a way to get discounts or revenge at the expense of hard working people who are then stuck taking the deal because they cant afford to fight it.
This is just another way to legally finish the coup.
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)oregonjen
(3,338 posts)Skidmore
(37,364 posts)He spent a great deal of air time during Barr's confirmation hearing assuring the nation not to worry. Barr is an institutionalist who would follow the rules. Totally disregarded the man's history of being a partisan fixer for the illegal activity of Republican presidents. And now he's shocked.
Jeffersons Ghost
(15,235 posts)PROSECUTE AND INCARCERATE THE CRIMINAL!
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)of congress.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,735 posts)When it comes to investigating a president, the special counsel regulations I had the privilege of drafting in 1998-99 say that such inquiries have one ultimate destination: Congress. That is where this process is going, and has to go. We are in the fifth inning, and we should celebrate a system in which our own government can uncover so much evidence against a sitting president.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)But who's going to uphold the law?
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)Perhaps it is up to we the people to give the House some cover.
It may be we the people who propel this.
72 percent of Dems desire impeachment.
We were told tonight that Pelosi is watching that number carefully.
But it isn't over until we who object have been in the streets to make our views known, if that's what it takes.
Let's hear a bang, not a whimper!!
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)...vote for Trump? It's HUGE.
He doesn't have the numbers to win.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)But since we don't...
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)That is the gold standard. The vote can't be hacked or changed if ballots are never connected to a network or machine.
This is a cause we can all promote.
Twitter user Jennifer Cohn has the best info on election security. And she begs for help.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... things real, the time to cut Thanos's arm off is about damn near gone.
SlogginThroughIt
(1,977 posts)I guess I dont understand the despair you are spreading here. And I dont like it at all. We have to vote. We have to have as enthusiastic turnout as possible. And when we win we have to put pressure on the powers that be to change the things that we dont like. I understand that it may be an uphill battle and that there may be nefarious acts working against us but we have to vote.
What other alternative is there?
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... anything either.
Address the apparent issues of Russia helping Trump in a constructive way other than the sophistry of hiding behind the non arguments of politics
watoos
(7,142 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)dawg day
(7,947 posts)My own Standard Republican (mother-in-law):
"Oh, yes, he's terrible. He's gross. He's disgusting. He's mean. But he's Republican. So I'll vote for him."
However, there aren't that many left. (she's 87.)
Maru Kitteh
(28,341 posts)act like we are willing to fight, like we care, like we still have the capacity to believe.
Yes.
We can.
Maru Kitteh
(28,341 posts)Ponietz
(2,985 posts)The people are shut down and stonewalled until next years election when the same malefactors kick up their cyberbug machine. The Pentagon steps in, declares martial law, supervises the election, and makes sweeping arrests after an overwhelming Democratic victorythey are all tried in a military tribunal. Meanwhile, Pakistan somehow loses one of its nukes, last known whereabouts near the Iranian border.
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)Zoonart
(11,869 posts)Terror attack on US soil. MF45 decalres martial law...no election.
Ponietz
(2,985 posts)applegrove
(118,696 posts)are educating themselves. Preparing. For something big in 2020.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)Americans don't read as a collective...taken on the aggregate, the American population is one of the dumbest in the world. Virtually no scientific knowledge, no skill in mathematics and a tenuous at best grasp on even RECENT history.
We are a nation of morons led by a dangerous imbecile and we're rapidly sinking into despotism as a result of this situation...
I would bet the lives of my children that the average American has read fewer than 2 books in the last year, and I highly doubt more than a 100,000 or so (roughly 0.02% of the population) have read either of the best sellers and fewer than 1/2 of those finished the books or educated themselves to any significant degree.
This nation is circling the idiocracy toilet and going down by the head. I swear Fox "news" is only days away from broadcasting "Ow, my balls!!!"...
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)A nadir, a hopeless situation where our hero will meet a final defeat at the hands of their adversaries.
But before that final moment the hero is snatched from the jaws of oblivion by way of deus ex machina.
Youre feeling that nadir right now.
I say, dont despair, help is coming. Trump and the GOPrs are all in an unsustainable position of their own making. It will not stand, because their advantages are built on the sands of lying, treachery and deceit.
The electorate and the moral arch of justice will overcome this sad state of affairs.
We will eventually prevail.
ZZenith
(4,124 posts)From top to bottom I concur with every word. Thank you, MrScorpio.
WAS IT OVER WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR?!!!
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... the head or arm off of the guy who swearing to kill half the living beings in the universe with the snap of his fingers ... for instance.
Trump will have Russia to help him in 2020 and hacked voting networks down to the municipal level where
1. Republicans will cheat like they did in 2018 via voter suppression measures to keep some kind of control
2. Russia will be involved in minimum SM campaigns that FB, twitter et al are not giving a damn about stopping.
3. A recalcitrant leadership who intimates over and over the aforementioned isn't relevant or meaningful and can be defeated by a lot of votes.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)When Bush won his second term and I was in despair, my father said, "You think this is bad? Imagine how we felt in 1956 when Eisenhower won a second term. We felt hopeless. Segregation and discrimination were still rampant and blacks had little political power. And we didn't have the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act. But four years later, we elected JFK.
"So, feel sorry for yourself today and then get out and do something and start working toward 2006."
We did. And in 2006, we took back the House and Senate. And two years after that, we did what in 2006 seemed impossible.
This is a moment in time. History is a pendulum and it swings in different directions and sometimes it swings very far to one side. But it always swings back and it's up to us to make that swing happen sooner and go farther.
Cha
(297,322 posts)for your righteous Pep Talk!
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... to put these people in jail or fine the shit out of them giving up?
How is pushing for powers of impeachment giving up?
Jus wanted to make sure we're on the same page.
tia
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It was merely another lamentation about how the Republicans are awful and will cheat, voting doesn't matter, and our leadership doesn't get it.
That's not proactive, it's not helpful and it certainly isn't going to "pressure" any leader into doing anything.
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)If we work hard, we can send the GOP Senate packing. Our presidential candidates need to run on heathcare...what the GOP is doing to end it in the courts...attack them at every turn.
N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,734 posts)Another old way of saying it.
Mme. Defarge
(8,034 posts)GOTFV!!!
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... sure to add the rest of the sentence.
Lets not whistle past the graveyard
Mme. Defarge
(8,034 posts)our only hope is overwhelmingly large turnout.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... the machines down to a level of compliance?
Seems like a lot more progressive than hoping the Russians, who've already hacked the machines and voter roles and state local elctoral systems, .... wont do it again.
DonaldsRump
(7,715 posts)When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.
M.K. Gandhi
Putin is an idiot because he picked the biggest idiot of them all: Trump! That's another reason why!
[link:|]
coti
(4,612 posts)Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)3. citizenship question on census - starts part three - reducing blue state / urban area congressional representation.
Dems are arguing over who is progressive enough to be the candidate.
dustyscamp
(2,224 posts)Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)But no, the emails etc. Congress can't rescue us from this because we kneecapped them by not voting for the Democrati nominee.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)Azathoth
(4,610 posts)The plan is to have two years of soundbites of Mazie Hirono and Adam Schiff getting righteously outraged during oversight hearings. We stand a good chance of winning in 2020, but from here on not a single Trump goon will suffer consequences worse than a stern tongue lashing right up until January 2021.
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)a second term.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... seriously.
Right now its publicans showing us we're number one daily
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)Trump a win in 20. We are in a desperate place, and polls show impeachment is unpopular...if we could remove him,it would be worth it, but we can't.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... choice but to try to remove and let the American people see republicans keep the criminal Trump.
The party of the impeached or nearly impeached has never fared well post impeachment
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)You will give Trump four more years. I know the dream is with hearings folks will realize what a rat he is and demand conviction. But it won't happen. I want aTrump out. We are about a year away from elections...hold hearings.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... fare better at getting rid of him.
Impeachment doesn't give Trump four more years, there are no true political facts behind that
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)... is that the Democrats in the House really only refer the impeachment papers to the Senate for hearings and a trial. We have clearly seen that the Senate is controlled by trump and his stooges. So the hearings would be a joke and there would never be an actual conviction and removal. Instead, it would result in essentially an acquittal - and the exonerated chorus would be deafening from MSM. No one here would be persuaded by that, but the 60% of the electorate that only pay attention 4% of the time would be vulnerable to that influence.
This is different from the 70s, and even the 90s. The degree of control the republicans have over the MSM - and thus the narrative - is frighteningly greater now than the past.
But I think the best reason not to impeach NOW is that the House loses a lot -really all - control over the investigation once impeachment papers are sent to the Senate. We -Dems - could sit back and watch, and feel righteous about our actions - but we would essentially be out of the game at that point (our minority in the Senate could only do so much since the gop would control the proceedings).
Why not have House hearings. Lots of hearings. Expose lies. Subpoena documents and witnesses. Overload the media with tales of trump and his administrations treachery, incompetence and dealings with foreign interests. How would that be any less destructive to his office than a failed impeachment proceeding?
I get that history is watching us, and that impeachment is what we should do under our duty to the constitution. But the drafters never planned for trump and the current gop. They never anticipated a media apparatus like we have today. They never expected the electorate to be so stupid, frankly. And they would have never expected the people to accept lawlessness so readily and unquestioningly.
We HAVE to stay in the game until 2020. We cant turn it all over to them. Thats what they want.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... impeachment of Clinton.
That's a fact that's not in dispute
To argue Republicans won by less points isn't a progressive position, who cares ... they still won back both houses.
This is different from the 70s, and even the 90s. The degree of control the republicans have over the MSM - and thus the narrative - is frighteningly greater now than the past.
This is true, I think that's one of the Reasons Murdoch put together FAUX News but the polling is what it is even with FAUX News.
The most recent NPR|Marrist poll has Trump impeachment near Nixon impeachment at a similar stage ... even with FAUX News.
Trumps age base is gone in the dumps, a majority of them wont vote for him.
Yes its different, Trumps numbers are empirically worse
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)... its because the truth is slipping out - slowly but surely - and people are waking up to what is really going on. His polls are slipping because we have a voice through the House majority, and some people are hearing it.
Why tamper with that model? Keep having hearings and conducting serious investigation. Get the truth out there.
Impeachment just moves the game to their home field and gives them the narrative.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... if the stonewalling was happening I'd 100% agree with don't impeach ...not at all.
But without impeachment proceedings dems can ... NOT ... have serious investigations.
Also,
We're talking about free and fair elections, no one believes that's going to happen with Red Don ... we have try impeachment
or...
start with inherent contempt of congress and use house sargent at arms.
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)until you can get back to yourself is all I can suggest.
Maybe DU should have a white flag forum, though, where those inclined can indulge their need to surrender and wallow in defeat. With battle for the future of our nation sure to continue for some time, they'll have no shortage of opportunities.
philf99
(238 posts)It's a rigged system and much like mafia he controls the judges and politicians.
With Barr he has complete control of American Justice system.
KPN
(15,646 posts)night.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,357 posts)through politics in times like this. It's important to realize that there is no politician riding in on a horse to save us all, or to "save America," or to finally put the "good guys" back in power. Better to realize that the ones who can save us are ourselves, working together. It's not easier, or even more rewarding. But it can keep you much closer to hope.
spanone
(135,844 posts)themaguffin
(3,826 posts)TrishaJ
(798 posts)Donald Trump say it's over doesn't mean it's over. I lived through the murder of JFK, the Civil Rights movement, and Watergate. I have faith that justice will prevail at the end of the day.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Because I'm more optimistic now more than ever...
lostnfound
(16,184 posts)Paladin
(28,264 posts)Meanwhile, lose the boo-hoo attitude and get active in your area, mobilizing Democratic votes. If we do go down in 2020, it shouldn't be without a really dirty fight.
jalan48
(13,870 posts)Our government is based on the belief that its Representatives all agree that the upholding the Constitution is the most important thing, regardless of political differences. We are in a place now where that is no longer the case. So much power has been ceded to the Executive Branch over the decades we now find ourselves in a situation where the Executive Branch can simply ignore the Congress and the Congress has no real power to do anything about it. Who's going to enforce the subpoenas?
Listening to Nancy Pelosi gives me hope.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
Botany
(70,516 posts)I'm from Ohio and I saw the cheating and rat fucking 1st hand in 2004. w stole two elections,
lied to start a war, missed 70+ warnings about 9-11, crashed the economy, and created ISIS
and yet he is living large in Texas and painting puppy pictures. Sometimes it gets too much
but buck up because:
The House is gonna have impeach Trump and then the GOP in the senate will have to stand
w/a treasonous grifting con man who is bat shit crazy. Let 'em.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Thatll surely win this war.
< Just in fucking case you or anyone else dont get it.