General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"The Falcon and the Snowman" and the Bradley Manning/Julian Assange affair.
For those of you not familiar with the story read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falcon_and_the_Snowman
Although the story is about two overprivileged young men in the seventies, who sold secrets to the Soviet Union embassy in Mexico, parallels between Bradley Manning and Julian Assange start to emerge.
One of the young men, Christopher Boyce, who is working for a top secret government communications agency called the "Black Vault" coerces his drug dealer friend Daulton Lee into negotiating with the Soviets for secret communications that he is privy to from the CIA. The reason he does it is because he starts realizing that the CIA is calling the shots in raising and deposing leaders in other countries of the world, in this case the assassination of Salvador Allende in Chile and plans to depose Australian PM.
Since he has become a liberal democrat in direct confrontation with his conservative Republican family, he feels some rapport with the socialist ideals of the Russians. Well to cut to the chase, he does become disillusioned with the Soviets and realizes they are no different than us. He claims when he is caught and sentenced to prison that he has learned a lot about predatory behavior through his hobby of falconry and he felt the CIA and Soviet Union had become corrupted to become predators.
His dope dealing friend, his messenger, is arrested on trumped up charges of murder on flimsy evidence, a photograph, taken in custody by Mexican police, beaten and tortured and then returned to the United States, to be arrested there. That was the plan. Back in those days we didn't do our own torturing. The Mexicans knew he wasn't guilty. They serve twenty + years of time before getting out of prison. Their lives destroyed for flawed idealism.
We all know what is going to become of Bradley Manning if this same procedure is followed by our government officials. Assange, if put into US custody, for releasing that video of our troops shooting civilians and two Reuter's reporters in Baghdad, will no doubt follow in his footsteps. Manning has already been beaten and tortured. He will no doubt be taken before a kangaroo court that will convict him with no problems. If Assange can't fight being taken into custody by first the Brits, then the Swedes, both USA diplomatic lap dogs (it's well known in international circles), he will meet a similar fate. If he does escape, look for him to commit an unfortunate suicide in the future.
I was just as disgusted with our government dealings, just like Christopher Boyce, for the same reason, the Allende affair, although as a more mature and less idealistic person, I didn't choose to commit treason against my country, but preferred to try to change it legally from within so that the America which we were taught about in school could start to emerge. However, I understand why Bradley Manning did what he did. It was the same idealism that Christopher Boyce had and access to the information. Assange is not the Soviet Union, but didn't we make sure that Afghanistan took them down, which led to its destruction? It seems we always get our man one way or the other.
I feel that we are being manipulated into condemning Assange for his sexual behavior, an ages old tactic to condemn someone deemed an enemy of the state by appealing to the prejudices and moral high ground of the masses and then finding some trumped up charges and witnesses to seal the deal of what is a really flimsy case. We really need to fight this because its done to us all the time. Look at the war on women. It's classic manipulation of the people making them willing to condemn someone and making it so much easier for the authorities to remove a troublesome entity that is interfering with business as usual.
PEACE!
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)AMEN
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Did I make too much sense?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Union required day off?
That's all I got.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)whistler162
(11,155 posts)their minds and think about things. Instead of those that fall again and again for the BS when their hero shows that they are human and have major faults!
Likely shaking theirs heads like they did when people jumped to defend SPitzer, Weiner, etc. for their sexual escapades and then go off on some Republican for a similar incident.
sofa king
(10,857 posts)The film depicts Boyce and Lee as considerably more sympathetic and idealistic than they actually were, and completely avoids the result of Boyce's espionage.
At first they tried to get themselves off the hook by claiming they were only selling worthless documents, but the actual results soon became alarmingly clear.
According to Senator Daniel Moynihan, as a direct result of Boyce's intelligence, the Soviets had learned enough about U.S. spy satellites that they could render them useless at will through electronic countermeasures. "The fear that that would happen, and had happened, permeated the Senate and, as much as any one thing, was responsible for the failure of the SALT II (Strategic Arms Limitation Talks) treaty." (Pollmar and Allen entry on Boyce, p. 83)
The Soviets also learned how NSA was intercepting their rocket telemetry, and changed things up so that the US could no longer monitor Soviet missile development.
That allowed Ronald Reagan to pursue his cold-warrior act for the rest of the '80s, and gave the military-industrial complex an extra seven years to solidify the hold on Americans that they still have and use against us to this day.
The court felt that the prosecution had proven that Boyce and Lee were motivated largely by greed. A few years after conviction, Boyce broke out of prison and robbed seventeen banks in the Northwest while US authorities searched for him worldwide. US Marshals caught him learning to fly, with the intent of stealing a plane in Alaska and flying it to the Soviet Union.
I don't think we saw any of that in the film, either.
Notice I'm not saying anything at all here about Assange and his cohorts. I am pointing out that any analogy to be drawn between a fictional film and the case of Assange is sure to be erroneous in its details.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I pretty much saw them as the spoiled, rich kids from Palos Verdes Estates, Pacific Palisades and Malibu that I grew to know in that era. I was a bartender then and many of their proto-types were my customers back in the seventies. Yes, Boyce did lead a life of crime after breaking out of prison, but he pretty much had the VietNam era philosophy of that historical period's young people that the rules didn't apply to them because the government was corrupt, not to be trusted and mostly not payed attention to. This is why there was such an eruption of a drug culture among middle class, white kids back then. Before then only musicians and underclasses smoked marijuana and used coke, but those kids broke that mold. There was nothing new there. Also, there is no doubt that Lee's motivation was pure greed. Boyce was the idealist, who seemed to have a very high degree of intelligence as well.
However, the reason I brought this up is because, there was a point where the flawed ideaology of Boyce, led to their downfall. It also seems our government didn't give a crap about them other than the fact they had been exposed in all their nefarious meddling in global affairs. This is what is going on with the Manning/Assange business. Our government will do everything they can to take them down and punish them beyond what is reasonable for that reason. They were exposed for being a dirty super power and that is the truth.
sofa king
(10,857 posts)From my own personal point of view, I think forcing the public to finally acknowledge the full extent of the Bush Administration's crimes is the only way we're going to end this new Gilded Age.
I think that Assange has the goods, too.
Unfortunately, I also think that there will be unintended consequences from the disclosure. Nobody guessed at the time that Boyce and Lee would almost singlehandedly provide the Reagan Administration with the justification for dumping our treasury into Star Wars and fighting a cold war for years longer than it needed to go. Nobody could have guessed that their disclosure would be most favorable to the very people that Boyce wished to discredit--if that's ever what he wanted in addition to money.
If Assange opens the Pandora's box, we'll certainly see the bad guys try to use it for traction, instead of as an obstacle to their future endeavors--and we're already living in the sewage of their prior success in turning intelligence setbacks into an old-boys' cash cow (see also Osama bin Laden).
In the end, I think it will be worth it to rip away the curtain, if only for an instant. But it's going to hurt, too.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I hope at the very least that some laws get implemented to force more transparency from our MIC.
Kath1
(4,309 posts)I used to work for a defense contractor. We attended an all-day seminar all about Boyce/Lee and the TRW affair. The gist of the whole thing was that the US was embarrassed about meddling in the politics of other countries.
KT2000
(20,590 posts)and I think there are many other cases that we never hear about - people sent to mental hospitals and prisons on trumped up charges to keep them quiet. Jessica Lange and Tommy Lee Jones were in a movie about this - I believe it is called Blue Sky.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)that if he had, his attorney might have mentioned it in the various 113 filings available on his website.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)What cave have you been living in the last two years.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)tortured.' Since there's a hearing on his claimed unlawful pretrial confinement in early October, you would think the defense might have mentioned this 'beating.' There's plenty of Article 13 filings on his attorney's website....show us where he is claiming he was 'beaten and tortured.'
Cleita
(75,480 posts)the mention of this.
His cell was 6 × 12 ft with no window, containing a bed, toilet, and sink. The jail had 30 cells built in a U shape, and although detainees could talk to one another, they were unable to see each other. His lawyer said the guards behaved professionally, and had not tried to harass or embarrass Manning. He was allowed to walk for up to one hour a day, meals were taken in the cell, and he was shackled during visits. There was access to television when it was placed in the corridor, and he was allowed to keep one magazine and one book. Because he was in pre-trial detention, he received full pay and benefits.[52]
On January 18, 2011, the jail classified him as a suicide risk after an altercation with the guards. Manning said the guards began issuing conflicting commands, such as "turn left, don't turn left," and upbraiding him for responding to commands with "yes" instead of "aye." Shortly afterwards, he was placed on suicide risk, had his clothing and eyeglasses removed, and was required to remain in his cell 24 hours a day. The suicide watch was lifted on January 21 after a complaint from his lawyer, and the brig commander who ordered it was replaced.[54] On March 2, 2011, he was told that his request that his POI status be removed had been denied. His lawyer said Manning joked to the guards that, if he wanted to harm himself, he could do so with his underwear or his flip-flops. The comment resulted in him having his clothes removed at night, and he had to present himself naked one morning for inspection.[55]
The detention conditions prompted national and international concern. Juan E. Mendez, a United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture published a report saying the detention conditions had been "cruel, inhuman and degrading." In January 2011, Amnesty asked the British government to intervene because of Manning's status as a British citizen by descent, though Manning's lawyer said he did not regard himself as a British citizen.[56] The controversy claimed a casualty in March that year when State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley criticized Manning's treatment and resigned two days later.[57] In early April, 295 academics (most of them American legal scholars) signed a letter arguing that the treatment was a violation of the United States Constitution.[58] On April 20, the Pentagon transferred Manning to the Midwest Joint Regional Correctional Facility, a new medium-security facility in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where he was placed in an 80-square-foot cell with a window and a normal mattress, able to mix with other pre-trial detainees and keep personal objects in his cell.[59]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning
Seems Amnesty International considers this treatment torture.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)attorney is precluded from mentioning Manning was 'beaten and tortured?'
The reason his attorney isn't mentioning the fact that Manning was 'beaten and tortured' is because it didn't happen.
There's a 110 page Article 13 motion sitting on his attorney's website. Show us where his attorney claims he was 'beaten and tortured.'
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Bradley Manning Tortured at Quantico
Details of Defense Motion
A more than one hundred page defense motion detailing how Pfc. Bradley Manning, the soldier accused of releasing classified information to WikiLeaks, was subjected to cruel and inhuman treatment while held at Quantico Marine Brig has been made public. The motion on unlawful pretrial punishment asserts officers at the brig made a decision to hold Manning in the harshest conditions possible, regardless of his psychological health. It concludes, as a result of flagrant violation of Mannings constitutional rights, the judge should dismiss all charges with prejudice or, at minimum, grant meaningful relief in the form of at least 10-for-1 sentencing credit for the 258 days PFC Manning inappropriately spent in the equivalent of solitary confinement.
much more @link
See also:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/10/bradley-manning-legal-scholars-letter
randome
(34,845 posts)I'm not saying he was or was not. But there is no evidence and the issue was pretty much dropped.
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)My motives are to see things as they really are and to not give much attention to being right or wrong.
That's my wish, anyways.
And I'm only one guy. Not guys.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)beating took place. Fyi...the Article 13 filings are on his attorney's website...you can read them. Show us where Mr. Manning was 'beaten and tortured.'
Cleita
(75,480 posts)The fact that there was a so-called altercation with the prison guards pretty much points to a beating. Amnesty International believes his treatment in jail was torture.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)in January....that Manning was beaten. Show us the attorney claims.
There's a 110 page article 13 claim on his attorney's website. Show us the claim he was 'beaten and tortured.'
Cleita
(75,480 posts)otherwise. Anybody who works in a jail or is a prisoner knows that an altercation with guards means that there is a beating going on and it isn't the guards that are getting it.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)forgets to mention that????? Fyi...wikipedia is not 'evidence.'
Why won't you cite the incident as described by his attorney??? You have a 110 page motion that details his claims....no mention of a 'beating.'
Cleita
(75,480 posts)There is no point in me wasting time showing you what happened.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)that his attorney forgot to mention in his Article 13 filing.
Okay. I just hope you contact his attorney and let him know about it.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)It's on the Amnesty International website. There is also information on the Firedoglake website if you are truly interested but I don't think you are. You just want to toy with me.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)what they found objectionable. They have a hearing on it scheduled for October 5th. The motion is available on the attorney's website. No where in that motion is any mention of Mr. Manning being 'beaten and tortured.' If you doubt that, read the motion.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)...but something worth thinking about. Presumably most of us reading this chose, like you, to not commit treason and work for change "within the system," but for all of that do you feel like the "system" has changed for the better one whit? I don't, and that troubles me. We've somehow deluded ourselves into thinking that working for change as loyal Americans is better than selling out a corrupt empire, but the result has only been greater corruption and venality on a global scale, an unstoppable behemoth of greed and hunger for power.
Not a cheerful thought, frankly.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)are beginning to figure out why and Eisenhower warned against it back in the fifties, the military/industrial complex. Many of us really didn't see it though back in the seventies. It was much too covert and flying under the radar.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)the Oil shock and losing Vietnam gave them the MIC a perfect opportunity.
Add taking over the paper press/Radio/TV, and you've got yourself a near bloodless coup.
Mind you, The MIC seems to be cracking at the seams, at the moment...
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Many Americans refuse to believe that.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)is total (or damn near) control of the information sources.
With the advent of internet, that's harder to do.
The MIC and the rest of the PTB are slowly fading away (too slowly, in my opinion... but I'm something of a radical.)
randome
(34,845 posts)Too many people try to connect spy thriller movies to real life.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and what points shall you pick for us?
randome
(34,845 posts)You're allowed to do the same but I recommend that spy thrillers not be part of your judgement process.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)But the last spy thriller I read was a while back.
If I want to distrust the government of the USA and the PTB...
all I have to do is remember the following names:
T. Townsend Brown
Philo T. Farnesworth
Eugene Mallove
When I decide to go public with an idea, I'm making it shareware, and going viral...
randome
(34,845 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I've got PTSD and play with things that go ZAP and BOOM...
so your mileage may vary.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)incident. I put the movie link up because it's easier to get a synopsis of what occurred. There is also a book and oodles of links online, which give the complete REAL story. Yes, there was some artistic license in the movie but the fact was that our CIA was meddling in the governments of countries that were allies, not even enemies. These kids exposed that, for whatever their personal motives were, and paid the consequences of getting on the wrong side of "big daddy" the CIA. Even Boyce's father's FBI connections couldn't save him.
struggle4progress
(118,370 posts)you will want to look at the findings of the 1975 Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, which had nothing to do with this pair of clowns
Cleita
(75,480 posts)If you really delve into what they sold, most of it wasn't even good intel, however they were severely punished because they showed our meddling in foreign government's highest positions of office.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)In anti- statist persons like vultures.
Insisting that if person X doesn't live up to THEIR 'standard' of perceived behavior - that person has no point to make.
Child molestation, prostitution, rape, etc are classic to use against anti-statist folk.
struggle4progress
(118,370 posts)I guess we could all believe they carried the joys of psychedelia and US spy satellite pictures to the dull USSR, motivated by the purely idealism
But its generally a good idea to avoid self-avowed "idealists" like that
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)You just served as a case in point for Xchrom's earlier post.
struggle4progress
(118,370 posts)There he was given access to the ''Black Vault'' and its trove of communications with CIA headquarters in Langley, Va. He and a childhood friend, Andrew Daulton Lee, the two of them once altar boys together, began selling classified documents that Boyce smuggled home. Their buyer was the Russian Embassy in Mexico City.
What brought such a dangerous gambit? A 22-year-old's mix of liberal ideology and a desire for cash to buy drugs. Their scheme succeeded for little more than a year, until 1977. Boyce and Lee were arrested, tried and convicted of espionage in federal court in Los Angeles and sent away for long prison sentences ...
''I was just in a very rebellious state,'' he recalls, reflecting on Vietnam and on CIA abuses that were very much in the news. ''I was brought up by an FBI agent, and I was just very much in a state of rebellion. I looked at Western culture there in Los Angeles as just a big confusion of causes, a big smog-choking illness on the planet. The city was just choking with poison, and I just was in total disagreement with the whole direction of Western society'' ...
They sold thousands of classified intelligence documents. One of them dealt with a super-sensitive satellite system called the Pyramider. They made about $77,000, a fortune for such young pirates. Their arrest, Boyce says, ''was the storm cloud that broke on our heads'' ...
The Falcon and the Fallout
March 02, 2003|Richard A. Serrano
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/mar/02/magazine/tm-boyce9
Ignorant, rebellious, stoned, and youthful may not be a solid platform for social change
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I haven't read a spy thriller in over 7 years.
Thanks for the listing!
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)you again proved xchrom's point.
struggle4progress
(118,370 posts)So in modern terms, those two 22-yo kids pulled in today's equivalent of about $150K each in their year of drug-and-secrets selling
I think I'll doubt the idealist explanation
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)the buyers NEVER offer cash, at the start.
So...
in addition to this story, what other spy novel have you got for me?
I literally just finished a 70 page thesis, and I need some fun reading.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)authority by twenty somethings in the seventies was very common and you had to be pretty clueless not to see it. Really, it was. Most of them though, just smoked dope, had promiscuous sex, hated the government and didn't go the next step to espionage.
struggle4progress
(118,370 posts)beginning to break before the election
In 1972, many of us were still sure sex-drugs-n-rocknroll was the sign of revolution. That analysis failed
Disillusionment with the Republicans gave us Carter in 76, but Carter didn't win in 80
The 60s didn't produce a coherent and lasting political opposition in this country: otherwise we wouldn't have had 12 years of rightwing Republican administration with Reagan and Bush I
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Gosh darn, those Republicans are so clever. Of course they never lie or steal or cheat their way to power. No siree, they are as honest as the day is long and it's all our fault we couldn't make the change we wanted.
struggle4progress
(118,370 posts)Nixon was a corrupt pig, and Reagan was a jovial avuncular actor hired to provide a smoke-screen for the world's largest gang of corrupt pigs. It kinda went downhill from there
But we can only change our own analysis and our own behavior, so it's still our fault that we continue to lose, if we refuse to learn from our mistakes
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Bradley Manning was a serving soldier who intercepted classified material and transferred it to foreign nationals. This is by definition espionage. It is also categorically an offence under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The nature of the offence makes it punishable by death; see the following ("grave risk of death to another person" = "revealing the names of confidential informants and intelligence sources" .
(1) Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any entity described in paragraph (2), either directly or indirectly, anything described in paragraph (3) shall be punished as a court-martial may direct, except that if the accused is found guilty of an offense that directly concerns (A) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack, (B) war plans, (C) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or (D) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy, the accused shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
(2) An entity referred to in paragraph (1) is
(A) a foreign government;
(B) a faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States; or
(C) a representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen of such a government, faction, party, or force.
(3) A thing referred to in paragraph (1) is a document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense.
(b)
(1) No person may be sentenced by court-martial to suffer death for an offense under this section (article) unless
(A) the members of the court-martial unanimously find at least one of the aggravating factors set out in subsection (c); and
(B) the members unanimously determine that any extenuating or mitigating circumstances are substantially outweighed by any aggravating circumstances, including the aggravating factors set out under subsection (c).
(2) Findings under this subsection may be based on (A) evidence introduced on the issue of guilt or innocence; (B) evidence introduced during the sentencing proceeding; or
(C) all such evidence. (3) The accused shall be given broad latitude to present matters in extenuation and mitigation.
(c) A sentence of death may be adjudged by a court-martial for an offense under this section (article) only if the members unanimously find, beyond a reasonable doubt, one or more of the following aggravating factors:
(1) The accused has been convicted of another offense involving espionage or treason for which either a sentence of death or imprisonment for life was authorized by statute.
(2) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of substantial damage to the national security.
(3) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of death to another person.
(4) Any other factor that may be prescribed by the President by regulations under section 836 of this title (Article 36).
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl106a.htm
And as to Assange it's neither here nor there; he is wanted for prosecution in Sweden, he should stop trying to hide from justice. I think he should answer the allegations against him. This does not mean I think that he should be extradited to the US or charged with espionage against the United States; quite the contrary, I would strenuously oppose any such action on the part of the US government as an illegitimate abuse of power. I don't see the two things as connected.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Remember all the Nazi SS troops who were brought before the Nuremberg trials, who said they were just following orders? I believe that the majority of them sincerely did that because they were good Germans even though they knew that the orders they were following were satanically wrong. Yet, what were they to do? If they had exposed the malfeasance of their superiors no doubt they would have ended up on a meat hook somewhere.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)He is not a whistleblower. He didn't know what he was releasing. I think he was misguided, and I think he was probably unfit to be in a position of trust, but I don't think that excuses his actions. Those actions have had negative consequences for American intelligence informants and dissidents in many parts of the world who were named as a result of Assange's publishing unredacted cables. Manning violated his oath as a soldier. There are consequences for that, and he should pay them. I think he should be given a court martial and the opportunity to defend himself, rather than being held in indefinite detention; he should not go free, though.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)matter what. So he'll be defended by JAG no doubt, career military lawyers, who will probably view him the same way you do. He doesn't have a chance. Even if misguided, he peeled back the corruption in our MIC and the horror of the two wars we are fighting to make those industries richer than they ever have been at the expense of the taxpayer and our rank and file GIs. Too bad.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)'beating and torture' Manning was subject to.
Again...you have a complete 110 page article 13 available. Cite your claims.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)The lawyers not using it in that tome you seem to keep referring to doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's just that they aren't starting with that in his defense. Lawyers often leave out incidents in trials to make their case. What reasons they have for this we will have to discover when the time come.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)motion asking the court to dismiss all charges based on his treatment at Quantico.
In that 110 page motion, set for hearing on October 5th, they forget to mention that he's been 'beaten and tortured.'
Either these are the stupidest fucking attorneys on the planet, or it didn't happen. Occam's Razor suggests the latter.