Dietary supplements do nothing for you

[SidDithers]

https://www.health24.com/Diet-and-nutrition/Vitamins-minerals-and-supplements/dietary-supplements-do-nothing-for-you-20190414-2

Findings that some vitamins and minerals can lower one's risk of death were true only when the nutrients came from foods, not from supplements.

If you're popping dietary supplements in the hope of living longer, a large new study suggests you'd be better off investing that money in nutritious foods.

The research found that vitamins A and K, magnesium, zinc and copper were linked to a lower risk of death from heart disease or stroke, and an overall lower risk of dying during the average six years of follow-up. But these findings were true only when the nutrients came from foods, not from supplements.

Of more concern, the study found that taking at least 1 000 milligrams of calcium daily from supplements was associated with an increased risk of death. This was not true of calcium from food.

"Over half of the United States population takes supplements on a regular basis. But it's pretty clear that supplement use has no benefit for the general population. Supplements are not a substitute for a healthy balanced diet," said Dr Fang Fang Zhang, the study's senior author.

Link to study abstract:
https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2730525/association-among-dietary-supplement-use-nutrient-intake-mortality-among-u


Sid

[Laffy Kat]

1. They reduce the weight of your wallet so you don't have to carry all that heavy cash around.

Is that something?

[hlthe2b]

2. An exception: Folic Acid supplements DO prevent neural tube defects.

--one of the most serious and preventable forms of neurological birth defect. This is well validated.

[Xolodno]

17. And is needed by people who have a rare genetic mutation...

...where their body doesn't produce it naturally. It nearly killed my wife.

[hlthe2b]

19. I think you mean genetic mutations which cause one not to absorb folic acid...

Folic acid is naturally occurring in many foods, but not all are able to absorb equally well, overcooking destroys it, poor diet (few fruits and veggies) will be deficient, many medications block absorption, and pregnant women need more than they are likely to get though diet alone.

Glad your wife was properly diagnosed and treated. To her good health...

[TheBlackAdder]

20. A shitload of people walk around with potassium and iodine deficiencies.

.

Resveratrol lowers both my systolic and diastolic blood pressure numbers by 20 points.

I also take a, OTC supplement, as noticed by my ophthalmologist, which lowers internal eye pressure.


Iodine was removed from most foods and replaced with bromine. Iodine deters most cancers, bromine enhances them.

.

[Bradshaw3]

27. That's anecdotal

Sorry but unless there is peer-reviewed, independent research showing these benefits, personal anecdotes don't prove their efficacy.

[TheBlackAdder]

35. It depends on who does the peer-reviewing, and which groups receive university funding from PhRMA

.

I caught one peer-reviewed medical report, where the reviewers had received funding via companies that were owned by PhRMA three levels down. It was a major Mass university, and the primary researcher was tightly tied to a pharmaceutical company, but it was buried several levels deep, so on the surface it appears as though there was no conflict.

.

[Bradshaw3]

36. I said peer-reviewed, INDEPENDENT research

I would like to see the link to the article. I worked with researchers who were also reviewers and/or editors of scientific journals. They took it very seriously and the peer review process is not one where the reviewers have a built-in bias. The research may be funded by a corporation but obviously if there are ties to the reviewers then it is not independent. I've read many peer-reviewed articles and never saw what you describe.

[TheBlackAdder]

37. They all look independent until a deep dive is performed. Then, half research funding is from PhRMA.

[Bradshaw3]

39. That is totally false

This country is badly in need of scientific education, including how scientific journals work. They don't "all look independent". I would ask if you had any proof of that at all but since you didn't provide a link to the supposed article you wrote about, I am sure it would be pointless to ask for proof of a claim that smears scientists as a whole.

I worked at a university research institution for many years and know that the scientists there were the most honorable people I've ever met. Their work led to medical and other scientific breakthroughs that have helped millions. The supplement industry, however, is built on the same cons snake oil salesmen used. It's funny when that is pointed out by legimtimate scientists some react the same as the antivaxxers and other believers in pseudo-science. It's sad to see this on DU.

[TheBlackAdder]

40. That's nice. Some are legit some are influenced by PhRMA and some are controlled by it.

You should be proud you worked for an upstanding university research facility that didn't get tems of millions for buildings and equipment or have staff with dual roles, in university and private practice.

[Bradshaw3]

48. So nothing to back up your claims?

No link to the supposed article you referenced or anything to prove your charges? Didn't think so. BTW, this thread was about the supplement industry. Funny how some try to turn it into an attack on scientific research as a whole. Not hard to figure out why.

[TheBlackAdder]

49. The research I did, I passed along. I am not putting those charges out there as a private citizen.

I guess you win.

A quick Google search will show many articles on how corporations have bought off or influence university labs.

But you probably already know how corporations influence research, unless feigning ignorance on this topic.

[Bradshaw3]

52. More baseless claims

I know you are definitely not feigning ignorance on this topic.

[TheBlackAdder]

53. I knew I would get a response, it was predictable.

.

The typical debate tactic is to get the opposing side to spend 30 minutes collecting a bunch of links, which would just be discounted, while professing some higher order of intellect. A classic web tactic which I won't engage playing.


However, here is just one simple link, after spending 30 seconds looking. And this is the norm, not an anomoly:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3376000/


It amazes me that those who profess objectivity ultimately reveal their biased thinking.

.

[Celerity]

60. yep

[Bradshaw3]

61. And I knew any link provided would not prove your broad, false claim

You show nothing that proves that is the norm. Nor do you provide a link to this supposed pharma article you claim represents not only biased research but biased reviewers. However, you do provide an extremely obvious example of projection with the last sentence. Biased indeed.

Instead of spending 30 seconds looking for a link which you hope provides cover for your smear of researchers in general, why not learn about how peer-reviewed, independent papers published in scientific journals come to be. I'm sure an editor of one would take the time to answer an email query. A I said, the ones I've known are forthcoming, honorable people. Not at all like you portrayed them.

[TheBlackAdder]

63. Your replies are becoming a parody of themselves. Earlier you fought my anecdotal claim w/your own.

.

The more you post, the more it reveals someone trying to project legitimacy, while flailing in the process.

.

[Bradshaw3]

67. Projection in its full flower again

The thread was about the supplement industry and I used peer-reviewed, independent studies to show the industry is a big con job. You tried to use - and failed - deflection of that fact with a spurious claim that scientific research in general is a fraud, citing a supposed study (which you have failed to link to or show any roof of in any way) that demonstrated bias. Obviously it doesn't exist.

As I said , it's really sad that on a site like DU posters denigrate science in an effort to give credence to an indiustry that is based on myth and pseudo-science. I worked with scientists at a internationaly known research center so I know how the process works. You have provided absolutley nothing to back up your claims.

[TheBlackAdder]

68. Fail.

[Bradshaw3]

70. One word responses are ...

... the essence of failure. Perhpas you have some financial ties to the supplement industry or you are a true believer in the myths they sell for money. I knew someone who bought into one of those miracle cure oils. Of course it wasn't backed by science. Later she got into a cult like group. It was really sad too see. Just as it's sad to see DUers try to diminish actual science in support of pseudo science like the anti-vaxxers, 911 truthers, etc. Throw in the greed that guides the supplement industry and it is more disturbing, especially on a site where (we hope anyway) facts and reason prevail.

[Loki Liesmith]

3. Magnesium supplements seem to have

Reduced my migraine frequency. Could just be a placebo effect but I’m not inclined to investigate further. The mystery is working for me.

[hunter]

8. I've received the same advice from medical professionals.

So what the hell, I can afford magnesium citrate supplements, and migraines suck.

CONCLUSION:
This systematic review provides Grade C (possibly effective) evidence for prevention of migraine with magnesium. Prophylactic treatment of migraine by means of high levels of magnesium dicitrate (600 mg) seems to be a safe and cost efficient strategy in clinical use.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29131326

[TexasBushwhacker]

13. They help some folks relax and sleep better too n/t

[greymattermom]

28. That's a real effect

and headache specialists (M.D., neurology residency, headache fellowship) often recommend magnesium.

[Liberal In Texas]

44. Was told during my physical last week to take some magnesium. Did for a few days

and quickly developed a sore stomach. After a few days of this I figured it might be the magnesium, quit it and now feel back to normal.

I think a lot of these things like taking extra Vit. D are supplement fads, and may benefit some people, but not necessarily others. And may produce unwanted side effects.

[Loki Liesmith]

47. Yeah magnesium can make me a little queasy

But it’s worth the trade off for me. Hate my headaches.

[SlogginThroughIt]

4. This is pretty much a garbage article.

Do supplements take the place of a healthy diet? No and they never claim to. I am a massive skeptic of supplements but this is a shoddy article.

[Blue_true]

42. I have personal experience that contradicts the article.

I was paying ~$120 per month for a prescription steroid medication to deal with a skin condition. The steroid would make the symptoms better for a few days that I would have to dose for several days as symptoms reflared. I did some research and settled on a supplement that I decided to try. One week after starting to use the supplement, I noticed my skin problem healing. A month later the lighter areas of the problem were healed and blemishes on my skin were beginning to blend in. After around three months, the worst areas are about 70% healed and I see their size shrinking and the dry skin scabs are no longer popping up. I plan to keep using the supplement because it is the only thing that worked.

[triron]

5. Bullshit. These studies don't show a damn thing one way or another.

I am a member of Life Extension, an organization that does extensive research
with exhaustive documentation (sometimes clinical trials) which paints a vastly
different picture.

[Bradshaw3]

29. Life Extension sells products and services

I saw no clinical research documentation on their site but they did have a statement saying they do it. They have many more links to products and services. So I'll take peer-reviewed, independent resarch over websites selling products. But if people want to diss science as not showing anything and throw away their money on worthless supplements, be my guest.

[ck4829]

6. Here's a question, 'Why?'

The body should be able to metabolize vitamins and minerals from supplements... maybe it's showing something else.

"Of more concern, the study found that taking at least 1 000 milligrams of calcium daily from supplements was associated with an increased risk of death. This was not true of calcium from food."

A basic principle of toxicology is "The dose makes the poison", maybe 1000 milligrams of calcium purely absorbed daily is toxic, regardless of whether it comes from food or supplements.

So they're doing something, maybe poisoning us with these huge amounts.

[Maru Kitteh]

25. More likely still, those advised to take Ca+ sups by health practitioners suffered osteoporosis

which is itself a condition that led to an increased risk of death.

Correlation ? causation.

I can see how several decades of Ca+ supplementation could contribute to arterial calcification, but more study needed for sure on this one.

[spooky3]

51. Exactly. And it is almost impossible to get as much calcium as required without taking in

so many calories that one would be overweight, unless one takes supplements. It takes at least 4 8-oz glasses of milk or the equivalent in yogurt, etc., and these would have to be fortified. Even with low fat dairy products, that would constitute more than one-third of my daily caloric limit to avoid gaining weight.

[Wounded Bear]

7. Daily "normal" supplements are just that, supplemental...

It's hard to get some of the more rare minerals and vitamins in food.

What is damaging (potentially, anyway) is overdosing on supplements, taking far more than RDA of nutrients. This isn't new. I knew people in the 70's doing that. I remember one fellow Marine that when we deployed he brought along a shoe box full of pill bottles. In the 80's and 90's overdosing on B-complex vitamins was popular, often as the never ending search for hangover remedies.

So, yeah, take a multi every day if you want, I do. But eat a healthy diet first and formost. And drink lots of "clear" fluids. That means water, not sodas and energy drinks.

[triron]

11. Yes eat a good diet, preferably organic and gluten free.

But an aging human does not utilize nutrients like a younger person
due to hormonal changes, organ aging (pancreas, liver, etc.). An aging male does
not produce as much melatonin, testosterone or dheas (and other hormones)
as when younger; there are good reasons to introduce these exogenously.

[triron]

9. Maybe you should consider Ray Kurzweil's regimen of supplements:

http://longevityfacts.com/futurist-ray-kurzweil-takes-100-pills-daily-to-live-forever/

[Bradshaw3]

31. I hear snake oil cures what ills too

[OhZone]

10. Take this wih a grain of - something - ha

You know -

If I take B vitamins, I feel a little more energetic and alert. And my pee is yellower. So there is some effect.

Yes, magnesium definitely has an effect.

More dramatically -

If I take beet root, I can absolutely feel the effect. Flush. More energy. And lower blood pressure when I check.

If I take pyknogenol, I feel more alert. Sometimes, it makes it harder to sleep in the evening. Unexpected insomnia is not psychological.

If I take melatonin, it definitely helps me sleep.

I do get my calcium from Almond Milk and cheese, tough.

Also - um Fang Fang Zhang? hmmm.... Oh-k. Oh, it seems health24.com is a South African organization - for what that's worth.


Bottom line -
I guess one could say the bioavailability ** OF SOME ** vitamins and minerals is better from foods.

BUT DO NOT just say all of them are worthless.


Also - it probably depends on the brand too. SO there.

[triron]

12. Yep. You speak from experience. Each of us is unique and benefits from different

supplements in different ways.

[Wellstone ruled]

14. Oh btw,

natures pride help make Orin Hatch a Multi-millionaire. As well as his Church.

[Raine]

15. They've been good for me

so on the article..

[Thekaspervote]

16. +1000

These articles show up from time to time here. Not sure why the need to trash someone’s health regime.

[BuddhaGirl]

50. They've been good for me too.

I just ignore these types of OP's. Blah blah blah. I will continue to use what is working for me.

[Quixote1818]

18. This is pretty much on par with most of the recent scientific studies

The only time I take vitamins is if I don't feel like I have been eating good for a couple of days or when I am sick and not hungry and eating much. They can be used as insurance when you go on a two day binge of crap to fill some gaps.

Why some people are resistant to this science and not other science is beyond me. Science is not a buffet where you can take what you like and throw away studies you don't like.

On a different note, this graph shows that certain vitamin supplements may help like vitamin D. Probably because some people don't get enough in the winter.

?itok=l03PR4kw&mtime=1471348052

https://www.businessinsider.com/see-which-health-supplements-are-a-waste-of-your-money-2012-8

[abqtommy]

21. I use many vitamins and supplements

and I can see that they are of benefit. Beyond the efficacy (love them 5$ words!) of any given prescription drug there's a phenomenon known as The Placebo Effect. (a sugar pill is a placebo) Studies have illustrated that the power of the human mind provides benefits even if the "experts" say there aren't any.

[mercuryblues]

22. I take a thyroid health

supplement. I started because I was always fatigued. What I did not expect was the tremendous positive change with my chronic diverticula. It can't be a placebo effect, because I had no idea it would help. I googled it and found out they are just beginning to study the effects of the thyroid on digestion and diverticula.

[TexasBlueDog]

23. 1978...

I remember a conversation with a pal when I started taking supplements in '78. He said it's a waste because you body can't store the crap you just piss it right out. I said yeah but it touches and feeds each cell on the way. He's dead now.

What entity has a vested interest in me dying as soon after retirement as possible? Who's paying my bills? The government. I'm no longer a tax paying profit center, I'm a cost center, time to go! If supplements were responsible for keeping my wrinkled old ass alive longer would this please my 'single payer'? I don't think so.

So, any time the government does a study and tells me something is unnecessary for my health, I want more of it.

[FakeNoose]

33. Hah! Never thought of it that way

... but you're making sense, friend.

I don't take any vitamin supplements on a regular basis, but I do know one thing. Taking vitamin C helps me beat a cold almost every time. I don't take C every day, just when I feel a little rundown and achy, like maybe I'm catching something. It usually does the trick.

[pnwmom]

24. This doesn't mean specific supplements don't help specific people.

I have to take B-12 for example, unless I'd rather have a shot. And I have to take Magnesium, because my opthomologist told me to, and he can show me with computer images how it's affected my eyes. And I have needed in the past to take iron supplements.

That's different from a scattershot or a one-size-fits-all approach.

[zipplewrath]

26. Or benefits other than longer life

As many people are pointing out, some supplements help with various chronic conditions. My daily does of L-Lysine helps with cold sores. I'm not going to live longer, but I'll have fewer outbreaks.

[KT2000]

30. I am grateful my Dr.

used calcium/magnesium/potassium when other docs prescribed antidepressants. I had an imbalance no one else recognized and it was like I woke up after months of feeling awful. I am grateful my Dr. told me to take Vit D because that fixed some problems I had. My sister was given vit D in the hospital when she was going through cancer treatment.

My health care is not controlled by the pharmaceutical companies who by the way use plants as their starting point in development of drugs.

[FakeNoose]

34. Did your doctor prescribe it

... or did you get it yourself over the counter? I think most of us buy our vitamins OTC, but I could be wrong. When it's prescribed by a doctor it's probably covered by insurance, and that would make a difference.

[KT2000]

55. he gave me the first

because it was a particular ratio. After that I purchased OTC magnesium. Since he is an MD who uses pharma and supplements where appropriate, he does not take insurance anyway. The hammer on so-called alternative doctors is the insurance companies.

[Blue_true]

43. Good to see supplements worked for you. Some have worked for me.

I am one of many here that are not reflexively anti-Pharma. Eventhough Pharma may start from a plant, a synthesized medicine may be better. Some supplements have ingredients that can cause undesired side effects, a highly refined version of the desired substance may not have those side effects. So it all depends upon the dynamics of the particular medicines or supplement.

[KT2000]

56. that works two ways though

Resistance to antivirals is becoming a problem. Here is an explanation of why whole plants are important. Also there are so many active compounds in as plant, viruses and bacteria cannot mutate to become resistant to a whole plant :

"Stephen Buhner calls plants the finest chemists on earth, for they have developed over billions of years, a wide range of compounds for response to viral infections. While pharmaceuticals may have a single target, the plant’s compounds may intervene at numerous sites. A master at this appears to be the Chinese skullcap. One need only refer to the herbal antiviral Materia Medica in the book to learn this herb is a broad spectrum antiviral with the ability to act at numerous points in a viral infection. The list of viruses and other organisms it is active against is extensive and the science and research is included. ..... He expects that more research will be done and even more plants may join the list of antivirals.

[Blue_true]

69. I fully agree with your post. But I still believe that in SOME cases, refined medicinals are best.

I tend to prefer whole plants when preparing meals and buying a supplement. The supplement that is curing a dry skin condition that I have/had is whole plant, so I appreciate the point that you made about plant adaptability.

[Bradshaw3]

32. The dietary supplement industry is just a big con

Researchers have known this for years and independent, peer-reviewed scientific studies have shown that. The NIH has spent more than $2B on studies showing there is little to no benefits to these products:
https://bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/24-billion-later-vitamins-and-supplements-appear-to-have-no-value

But people swear by them, just as people swear that vaccines cause autism and the industry rakes in billions. I saw one meta-study that showed only four supplements had any effect, all ameliorative, not preventative or curative. One reseacher stopped doing research on supplements, she said, because not only did they have no effect, about a third didn't even have the ingredient they claimed. Saw palmetto was supposed to promote prostate health. A 20-year study showed it had no effect. But hey if people want to throw away their money on placebos go ahead.

[Blue_true]

38. Sid. Were the supplements one or two steps removed from the plant, or were they refined, laboratory

supplements. There are studies that contradict the one that you posted, but only if the supplements have a specific path from a plant and are one or two steps removed from the plant with minimal processing and refining (those are the ones that I generally do research on).

I have direct experience. I developed a dry skin condition that steroids masked but never seemed to cure. I started using a supplement that had a once removed from the plant oil and the problem, after several years, does appear to be healing, something I never saw from prescription steroids.

[MoonRiver]

41. After being diagnosed with breast cancer, my oncologist prescribed OTC vit D3

Supplements absolutely are needed sometimes.

[mtnsnake]

45. Sure it's better to get the nutrients from foods rather than taking supplements, but

all too often it's hard for many people to get the necessary nutrients just from the food they eat and drink. Taking some dietary supplements is a lot better than not getting enough nutrients at all.

[MicaelS]

46. And in 5-10 years another study will contradict that.

Red wine was said to be good for the heart.
Now no consumption of alcohol is safe.

This causes cancer. Then it is safe in moderate use.

That reduces possibility of cancer. Then it does not.

This will help you live longer. Then it is shown to do nothing of the kind.

This is why many people disregard what scientists say. I understand the scientific method and shit like that still pisses me off

[MarvinGardens]

54. Depends on the supplement.

Vitamin A and beta caroene supplements are not only not helpful, but probably actively harmful, and this has been known for 20 years.

But allow me to tell my story. I am a scientist. I am not big on single data point anecdotes. Yet, I am about to tell you one. N=1 might be underpowered, but it beats n=0. I developed paresthesia in my extremeties. It was accompanied by sore muscles and joints, but I had had those for longer, and it didn't occur to me that the symptoms were related. I just thought I was getting older. But the paresthesia was alarming. When, one day, I tried to go up on a ladder and felt unsteady, I realized it was serious.

I went to my GP. They immediately referred my to a neurologist. Before I saw him, I had already diagnosed myself with MS. In the interim, I tried various supplements, since it was a long wait for a neurologist. Perhaps I had a deficiency, I thought. Most everything I tried either didn't help, or seemed to make things worse. But then right before my neurologist appointment, I found that vitamin D seemed to reduce my symptoms. When I had my appointments, I abstained, because I wanted to be symptomatic, and I was. Various tests were run, and the results ruled out MS and neuropathy. The neurologist said that stress was a likely cause, but there was no test for that. He also said to keep taking the vitamin D if it seemed to help.

I kept taking the vitamin D and continued to get better. Not only did my paresthesia resolve, but my aches and pains almost completely went away. It turns out that all my symptoms were known symptoms of vitamin D deficiency. I still take it, but titrate my dose to keep my D level in a safe range, in consultation with my GP.

[ismnotwasm]

57. They do if you deficient in a necessary vitamin or mineral from certain situations or conditions

Or could be, as in pregnancy or recovering from certain surgeries. Or implied, you don’t eat enough foods that contain what you need.

Lack of Vitamin D is a suspected culprit in a number of things

What’s that quote, “Americans have the most expensive urine in the world” ? Fairly true.

That is a really interesting study.

[Celerity]

58. dodgy as hell anti-science post, making a universal statement off a very limited study

[lindysalsagal]

59. Well, my internist says take the calcium and multi, so I do. They know more than I do.

[womanofthehills]

62. Niacin will definitely get your cholesterol numbers down and it's an ingredient in cholesterol meds

Also, Dr. Louis Ignarro won the Nobel Prize for the benefits of L'arginine - it creates nitric oxide which dilates blood vessels and was a precursor to Viagra. He wrote a book recommending large doze L'arginine for heart health and lowering blood pressure.

If you take magnesium, you will always be regular - that is a given.

Also, whats with the web page - www.health.com - it's a South African web site run by a news company.

[Vinca]

64. All I know is if I didn't take Vitamin D in the winter I'd be jumping off a bridge.

I don't expect anything to help me live longer. That's pretty much baked in genetically IMO.

[Greybnk48]

65. D3 for me too! We hardly get any sun all winter.

I've taken D3 for years instead of prozac. 10,000 IU's daily. My doc checks my blood once a year at my physical and says my blood levels are fine (they were not before I started).

There's no real standard for D3 except a random 80 number in your blood. Mine is always around 49, so that seems ok. I back off of the dosage in the summer when I'm in the garden all the time and getting lots of sun.

[tanyev]

66. If you're taking statins, you need to be taking COQ10 or Ubiquinol because the statins deplete

that in your body. Hubby had a dentist appointment not too long after he'd been put on statins. He was complaining about how he'd been getting sores in his mouth and the dentist immediately said, oh if you're on statins you need to take COQ10 supplements. Cleared up the mouth sores right away. My only question is WHY DIDN'T HIS DOCTOR TELL HIM ABOUT THAT?????