General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWill history record that Democrats made a huge mistake in not impeaching Donald Trump?
In this moment, people are mostly against impeachment for purely political reasons. They don't think the Republicans will convict in the Senate and they believe it will hurt Democrats in the next election.
Most believe he deserves impeachment and has committed enough high crimes and misdemeanors to file charges.
But, how will history look at it?
Republicans will simply say they were not in charge of the House and it was totally the decision of the Democrats not to impeach.
Democrats will argue that they did not have the votes to convict and they decided to wait on the next election and let the voters decide?
Will that turn out to be a wise decision?
lame54
(35,294 posts)They get one shot at this and IT CANNOT FAIL
Runningdawg
(4,520 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
delisen
(6,044 posts)If we don't impeach in the face of this Enormity we turn our backs on Democracy.
Once the case is laid out for the people, votes may well appear.
Government is more than counting by the numbers on any particular point in time.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)the threat to the Constitution and Rule of Law is real, and to suggest the Dems do nothing because of the "math" is Ludicrous. The "math" is never there before the hearings and investigations- you relentlessly, persistently build the case, never yielding, never shrinking, until you get to the point where you inevitably file articles of impeachment and move to hearing and floor vote for the whole congress. At that time, if the Dems have done their job properly, the "math" will be in favor of impeachment, certainly in the electorate (subtracting 30% die hard Trumpsters still leaves 70%), which puts tremendous pressure on the Senate.
In Watergate, the "math" didn't shift until about a month before Nixon resigned in the face of certain impeachment and removal. This was after two years of hearings and investigations.
lame54
(35,294 posts)A Trump win would empower him more than ever
It would be reckless to just take a shot at it
McConnell's senate will never go for it
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)He wasn't eligible to run for a third term. Unfortunately, Al Gore lost the electoral college while winning the popular vote, just like Hillary.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... jobs of impeaching Red Don.
Also, this isn't about lying to the justice system about a BJ ... this is a constitutional violation of taking money from others without divesting interest.
Something Carter had to do and Republicans did ... NOT ... lose any ground by having an investigation into the way Carter passed on his business.
The "we'll lose" if we impeach position has little factual bases behind it looking at what's happened so far.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)to know that.
We're jumping the gun till we see the Mueller report, and how much has been redacted.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... and continuing to take money on his behalf and not even the appearance of being removed from his business's.
Companies openly overbook his hotels to show favor towards him ...
From what we know in the PUBLIC sphere he can be impeached RIGHT NOW!!
Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)When it was found he was using it as a personal checkbook. Anyone else would be in federal prison...
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/421874-trump-charity-agrees-to-dissolve-amid-allegations-of-a-shocking
Aristus
(66,388 posts)Bill.
I would have traded Big Dog's post-impeachment surge in popularity for a Gore win in the Electoral College.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... for emoluments violations.
Right now 80% of Americans want to see the Mueller report even a majority of republicans, that doesn't sound like someone who's got Clinton level popularity
McKim
(2,412 posts)Clinton lost if for Gore when he took the bait in that blue dress in the Oval Office!
diva77
(7,643 posts)a couple articles of interest:
https://www.gregpalast.com/one-million-black-votes-didnt-count-in-the-2000-presidential-election-rnits-not-too-hard-to-get-your-vote-lost-if-some-politicians-want-it-to-be-lost/
https://www.gregpalast.com/florida-by-the-numbersal-gore-won-florida-in-2000-by-77000-votes/
delisen
(6,044 posts)mcar
(42,334 posts)mcar
(42,334 posts)a shellacking for Republicans.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... as Clinton reached popularity with Republicans and independents at that time.
That's what the rights no impeachment narrative is leaving out, 53% of Americans did not say they wouldn't vote for Clinton at the time of his impeachment.
Apples to Apples there's very little comparison
Lock individual1 up
(92 posts)He KNOWS he's done with all his crimes but he KNOWS Pence can pardon him on either resignation or losing 2020, then he KNOWS he's done in NY State so his only out-of-jail card is to play early-stage Dementia in public so his lawyers will be able to plea old-age insanity to keep away from state jail for life.
So what does he do now? No freakin' law will stop him since he's already in over his whatever he's got on his head!!
He's not unhinged, he's full-blown criminal dictator mode like his idols pooty poop and kim jong kong!
Someone must stop him before it's too late (already there!)
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)What is "too late" and who is it that you think could stop him but won't?
Lock individual1 up
(92 posts)
already (Emoluments Clause included) so to him, what one (or many more) crimes will do to him? Same. Nothing more than he already has been taken accountable for, which is nothing. Only the platforms to keep his delusions of grandeur going, his adulation of his "Dear Leader" cult.
How about the LAWFUL Constitution of the United States? That founding document Lawmakers took an oath to defend and protect (the so-called Rule of Law nobody is supposed to be above?).
Rules are rules and there's a lawful process (not an easy one) but it is what it was designed for.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It assumes that we have enough ethical reps to take out a dangerous POTUS.
Currently the GOP majority in the Senate has no such ethics, and are not upholding their oath.
You can yell and fret all you want for Democrats to "FIX THIS NOW" but that Constitution won't get us out of this situation, nor does it give Dems the power to make the GOP do the right thing.
Voting him out in 2020 is the only probable solution, along with laying the groundwork for him to be charged once he's out of office.
It sounds like that's not something you can live with. What do you intend to do?
Lock individual1 up
(92 posts)
who co-conspired ON TAPE with his private attorney to commit a crime.
That excuse is not what a country based on the Rule of Law is supposed to do.
To pre-judge (rightly or wrongly: Who Knows The Future?) what political advantage will result (or not) from bringing Justice to any (alleged) criminal (based on concrete EVIDENCE), is not what a country based on the Rule of Law does or should be comfortable with.
Breach of the Emoluments Clause for all the world to see, in our faces, wide open, could be used to?
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)Cozy up with more dictators? Screw NATO more? Enpower him to incite violence and encourage racism, etc.? Play chicken with Iran?
Years from now, it will be told that we did nothing because the "math wasn't there"?! So do we teach our kids to only do the right things when the "math is there"?
Again, this wouldn't be a blowjob impeachment. If we lose voters because we justifiably tried to remove this dangerous person and lost...then I don't have much faith in those voters in the first place. But, at least we tried and sought a remedy provided by our Constitution.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)My theory is that Trump would be weakened by a death of a thousand cuts, rather than each news cycle responding to his demented tweets, the news would be filled with each new revelation of crimes and incompetence.
You have only your fear to base your speculation that Trump would be empowered.
By forcing an impeachment trial, after relentless hearings and investigations, McConnell's senate would be forced to take a stand, which the Dems could run against the 22 GOP senators who will be up for reelection.
lame54
(35,294 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)It appears you're thinking Clinton, when we are far beyond Nixon territory...
lame54
(35,294 posts)(which is the premise of the OP) to persuade 2/3's of the senate to vote against Trump
Maybe the Mueller report will be so damaging that the repugs can no longer turn away
But right now it's not happening
Perseus
(4,341 posts)impeaching without having the country go through a shock because of what Muller found will be a mistake, republicans who are sickened by the buffoon today would turn back to support whoever the republican candidate is, and my worry is that Pence knows how to play the part of a good guy, and he is worst than the buffoon.
If the proof is so great that would push even republicans to impeach, then go for it, otherwise I am convinced that it will hurt Democrats, very few republican voters are people who think, they are more reactionary.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Forget about political parties. Without the overwhelming support of the American people any attempt at impeachment will be seen as illegitimate.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/432683-poll-majority-of-americans-dont-believe-trump-should-be-impeached
Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)The tide turned against Nixon just a month or two before he resigned, after two years of relentless investigation by congress and the special prosecutor.
The Dems must defend the Constitution against Trump with the same persistence and and relentless tenacity until the tide has turned with the public and in the Senate. They dont have file formal articles of impeachment right now to keep their eyes (and Americas) on the prize...
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)when the tapes came out that proved he had committed crimes.
Can you guarantee that the same kind of evidence will come out against Trump and that his supporters will accept it?
Otherwise impeachment is just a useless feel good exercise for the left that will hand Trump a second term.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)It's in Meuller's indictments, Cohen's testimony, Trump's ordering Kirsten Njielsjenjj and CPB agent to violate the law and court orders...etc
Having the Meuller report would be nice, but not essential to begin investigations leading to impeachment hearings.
Starting the process that leads to impeachment hearings IS essential to defending the constitution.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Investigations are fine. They will help make the case for 2020.
But until an overwhelming number of people support it its a useless exercise.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)Apparently you do, putting political considerations ahead of acting to stop wrongdoing.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)with no possibility of a conviction.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)But the republicans in the Senate will put party before country and never vote to convict Trump. Thus, impeachment is a useless exercise.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)But I have a sinking feeling we will.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Mike Niendorff
(3,462 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 8, 2019, 04:36 AM - Edit history (1)
Also, I don't know where this "one shot" nonsense is coming from.
He *can* be impeached more than one time, if necessary.
If the Senate fails to convict on one set of Articles of Impeachment, there is absolutely nothing that precludes additional Articles of Impeachment from being brought as events warrant.
MDN
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)There are lots of felonies just waiting to be prosecuted
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)in a scenario of powerful public testimony. so stop beating your head against the wall.
lame54
(35,294 posts)It's ridiculous to think 2/3's of the senate is ready to vote out Trump now
So yes - I do know
I don't get why some refuse to understand this.
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)in the House. Imagine Don Jr and Jared stabbing each other in the back and Bannon stabbing both of them? More testimony from Michael Cohen?
The House votes to impeach, maybe even picking up a few Republican votes in swing districts.
The vote to convict then goes to the Senate - and every Republican in the Senate will need to go before the public after seeing the shit show of hearings in the House and vote up or down on Donald Trump.
Do the senators stand with Trump or do they vote him out in hopes of furthering their own presidential ambitions in the future?
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)And it would take a coordinated application of public pressure to raise those stakes.
It would be time for protests and critical mass of hue and cry from the citizenry.
The frenzy from the right would be INTENSE. Like nothing seen before.
But we outnumber them.
We outnumber them, and if infallible evidence were rolled out.......OUR numbers would increase.
And Trump's support would leak.
That is why I support any way to begin to reveal the evidence now. NOW.
Time is running out.
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)the decision before knowing what's in the report are the ones being premature. The Report may surprise us all. If there is no evidence of impeachable offenses, then the case is closed. If there is vast evidence of "high crimes or misdemeanors" we should go for it irregardless of whether WE think WE can get a conviction. If there is evidence of a crime, we should impeach and let the chips fall where they may. Not to do so, would encourage another president to break the laws and/or engage in impeachable offenses.
Bill Clinton was impeached for lying about sex with an intern. Donald Trump has done at least what would constitute high crimes comparable to what Bill Clinton did, if there is any evidence of his working with the Russians during the election, to include: 1) proof of an exchange of voter registration information between Trump's people and the Russians; 2) proof that the Russians hacked Clinton's emails based on Trumps encouragement; (that proof could be determined if it did happen later on the same day that Trump asked Russia to do so; 3) proof of any type that the Trump Team was engaging in secret meetings or conversations with the Russians during the time leading up to the election about any exchange of favors/or thing of value in exchange for election assistance, (i.e. ballot box tampering, registration forms tampering, etc.) 4) Evidence that Trump made promises to the Russians to lift sanctions in exchange for any election assistance, or any thing of value that could have influenced election outcomes, and 5) anything else that Mueller knows that we don't know yet.
When we know the answers to this and any other questions than we will know whether to pursue impeachment. Until we have certainty one way or the other, from Mueller, Comey, Sally Yates, the DoJ, the Russians, the Pinging Bank in Trump Tower, Michael Cohen, the meetings in the Sechelles Islands, the Russian's meeting in the Cigar lounge, where they all left by different doors,etc, and testimony from all those who were indicted and why they were indicted, or who have served jail sentences, we shouldn't take anything off the table.
lame54
(35,294 posts)To the OP which is about starting it now
The Mueller report, or something else, may change the math but we aren't there yet
Buckeyeblue
(5,499 posts)I don't think McConnell would even have a trial. For impeachment to work, both chambers of Congress have to cooperate and coordinate.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)McConnell can try to orchestrate things, but a trial must be held.
Buckeyeblue
(5,499 posts)I don't see anything in the constitution that provides for that. And what's the penalty if the Senate doesn't hold a trial?
I don't mean to be difficult about this. But this is how McConnell thinks.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)It could be a Constitutional crisis, with a government shutdown, etc. if Mitch doesn't move to trial.
Buckeyeblue
(5,499 posts)I think it would be frustrating. But I don't see where anyone could force him to hold a trial. The only thing we could try to do would be to put pressure on some of the at risk Republican senators to caucus with the Democrats so we could move Mitch out of the majority leader role. That seems unlikely.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)Congress doesn't just send the articles over like a bill, they send over "managers" who present the case for impeachment. Mitch would have to order these managers barred from the Senate.
If Mitch refuses to proceed with a trial, the Dems could refuse to allow any business in the House, and the Dems in the Senate could cause a ruckus as well. It would be a Constitutional Crisis.
Buckeyeblue
(5,499 posts)I don't think Mitch would adopt such an order. I'm not trying to defend Mitch. I'm just pointing out the Mitch has demonstrated time and time again that he is an obstructionist.
Amyishere
(69 posts)A crisis of inaction.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)Buckeyeblue
(5,499 posts)Kentucky is unlikely to vote Mitch out. As my 15 year old said last week when we were in Kentucky, it's a beautiful state full of ugly people. She said the same thing about West Virginia.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,624 posts)House (managers)
Impeachment proceedings may be commenced by a member of the House of Representatives on his or her own initiative, either by presenting a list of the charges under oath or by asking for referral to the appropriate committee. The impeachment process may be initiated by non-members. For example, when the Judicial Conference of the United States suggests a federal judge be impeached, a charge of actions constituting grounds for impeachment may come from a special prosecutor, the President, or state or territorial legislature, grand jury, or by petition.
The type of impeachment resolution determines the committee to which it is referred. A resolution impeaching a particular individual is typically referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary. A resolution to authorize an investigation regarding impeachable conduct is referred to the House Committee on Rules, and then to the Judiciary Committee. The House Committee on the Judiciary, by majority vote, will determine whether grounds for impeachment exist. If the Committee finds grounds for impeachment, it will set forth specific allegations of misconduct in one or more articles of impeachment. The Impeachment Resolution, or Articles of Impeachment, are then reported to the full House with the committee's recommendations.
The House debates the resolution and may at the conclusion consider the resolution as a whole or vote on each article of impeachment individually. A simple majority of those present and voting is required for each article for the resolution as a whole to pass. If the House votes to impeach, managers (typically referred to as "House managers", with a "lead House manager" are selected to present the case to the Senate. Recently, managers have been selected by resolution, while historically the House would occasionally elect the managers or pass a resolution allowing the appointment of managers at the discretion of the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives. These managers are roughly the equivalent of the prosecution or district attorney in a standard criminal trial.
Also, the House will adopt a resolution in order to notify the Senate of its action. After receiving the notice, the Senate will adopt an order notifying the House that it is ready to receive the managers. The House managers then appear before the bar of the Senate and exhibit the articles of impeachment. After the reading of the charges, the managers return and make a verbal report to the House.
Senate[edit]
The proceedings unfold in the form of a trial, with each side having the right to call witnesses and perform cross-examinations. The House members, who are given the collective title of managers during the course of the trial, present the prosecution case, and the impeached official has the right to mount a defense with his or her own attorneys as well. Senators must also take an oath or affirmation that they will perform their duties honestly and with due diligence. After hearing the charges, the Senate usually deliberates in private. The Constitution requires a two-thirds super majority to convict a person being impeached.[4] The Senate enters judgment on its decision, whether that be to convict or acquit, and a copy of the judgment is filed with the Secretary of State.[5] Upon conviction in the Senate, the official is automatically removed from office and may also be barred from holding future office. The trial is not an actual criminal proceeding and more closely resembles a civil service termination appeal in terms of the contemplated deprivation. Therefore, the removed official may still be liable to criminal prosecution under a subsequent criminal proceeding. The President may not grant a pardon in the impeachment case, but may in any resulting Federal criminal case.[6]
Beginning in the 1980s with Harry E. Claiborne, the Senate began using "Impeachment Trial Committees" pursuant to Senate Rule XI.[5] These committees presided over the evidentiary phase of the trials, hearing the evidence and supervising the examination and cross-examination of witnesses. The committees would then compile the evidentiary record and present it to the Senate; all senators would then have the opportunity to review the evidence before the chamber voted to convict or acquit. The purpose of the committees was to streamline impeachment trials, which otherwise would have taken up a great deal of the chamber's time. Defendants challenged the use of these committees, claiming them to be a violation of their fair trial rights as this did not meet the constitutional requirement for their cases to be "tried by the Senate". Several impeached judges, including District Court Judge Walter Nixon, sought court intervention in their impeachment proceedings on these grounds. In Nixon v. United States (1993), the Supreme Court determined that the federal judiciary could not review such proceedings, as matters related to impeachment trials are political questions and could not be resolved in the courts.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States#Senate
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)to have the Senate "adopt an order notifying the House that it is ready to receive the managers"?
How can the House force the Senate to receive the managers?
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)WillowTree
(5,325 posts)And what will have been accomplished?
bluestarone
(16,976 posts)I believe the HOUSE will still impeach BUT i support their timing!
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Cheney started a fake war where hundreds of thousands died. No way will she agree now. Too much like right. Why we let one person decide is beyond belief.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)You were wrong.
PS: I'm not literally rolling around on the floor kicking my legs either. That's also just an animated gif.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)I'm rarely wrong. Not bc I'm so smart but bc I'm a humanist
kentuck
(111,103 posts)it seems like DU is still divided on this subject?
MurrayDelph
(5,299 posts)when they didn't impeach Bush over war crimes and torture.
There isn't a whole lot of power behind yelling "Halt, or I shall have to shoult 'Halt!' again!"
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)No one was horrified enough by Bush to roll over on him.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)How about 20 more OPs, one for each candidate, asking if he or she should call for impeachment and can he or she win if she doesnt?
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Focus on the corruption and corporate welfare yes but not that.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)impeachment-as-Democratic-failure topic for Kentuck. I think it's a winner because it could be used eventually for probably a couple dozen OPs, because no one's going to demand impeachment before it's time.
It occurs to me that, after Super Tuesday perhaps, by changing the question to asking how history would view them if the surviving candidates didn't call for impeachment, a bunch more could be easily generated. He could also ask if those who were knocked out of the race would still be viable if they'd only called for impeachment. The possibilities are endless.
As we see.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)allgood33
(1,584 posts)I wish there were a way to impeach McConnell over his sedition-like comments at the beginning of the Obama administration, vowing to obstruct everything the incoming President would try to do. Remember, he vowed to make him a one-term President. Now he is going away the country to Trump and Russia. McConnel has actually proved to be the most dangerous person against our democracy. Just look at his history. And we and the MEDIA do not discuss him enough.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)that the Senate was effectively controlled by people who would not vote to remove Trump from office.
Impeachment of Trump by the current House would go down in history as another asterisk, just like the ones next to Andrew Jackson and Bill Clinton's names.
Lionel Mandrake
(4,076 posts)Andrew Jackson was never impeached.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)First, Johnson was a grade A asshole with poor political skills. So there was a personal element. Second, it was viewed as a part of a bitter partisan conflict over how to handle Reconstruction.
In our case, we certainly have the grade A asshole and bitter partisan conflict. The ostensible impeachment grounds are that he engaged in illegal activity to get elected. But the broader partisan conflict over a range of economic and social issues is making resolution of the criminal conduct impossible. Both side know this but can't resolve it.
If he is re-elected in 2020, it will be seen as a signpost on the way to the end of our democracy and our empire.
If he is not re-elected, the next President will have the huge task of reconciling our differences. If he or she succeeds, they will say he or she is one of our greatest Presidents. If he or she fails, they will say the differences were irreconcilable and that's what took us down.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)life believing that Congress takes an oath to our constitution which includes impeachment proceedings when:
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
"The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct by officials, such as perjury of oath, abuse of authority, bribery, intimidation, misuse of assets, failure to supervise, dereliction of duty, unbecoming conduct, refusal to obey a lawful order, chronic intoxication, and tax evasion."
I'll say it again and again: you don't go to battle knowing you will win the war, you go into it because it's the right thing to do. I don't give a shit whether this group of repubs in the Senate would actually vote to impeach or not.
Our system in many ways has shown many vulnerabilites since trump, this is a glaring example. I wanted to see all the Senate repubs who voted against impeachment, have their unpatriotic vote recorded for history.
p.s. this is not Bill Clinton and a blow job...trump has and is a huge threat to our democracy and national security. If the House rightfully bringing impeachment proceedings against trump ended up turning off a big part of our electorate, well...tragically we will probably lose anyway, IMO.
McKim
(2,412 posts)Amen, we must stand up now before this madman starts a war on Iran.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)Nevermypresident
(781 posts)reviewing all evidence, they each take a vote whether to impeach or not.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)If a case reaches the Senate, the accused, in this case the president, has already been impeached. The Senate votes either for or against conviction.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)So far they're winning on the obstruction and cover up game.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)No. We need a silver bullet that the public can easily understand. Most people can't explain/don't understand the emoluments case.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... not good governance.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Four more years of this is unconscionable to me. Our government (the executive branch at least) is barely functioning at this point.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)His "Charity" for starters
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/18/trump-foundation-shutdown-lawsuit
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Vinca
(50,278 posts)The Manbaby and his supporters thrive on victimhood. His entire campaign would be about how he was mistreated by the Democrats and, sadly, a chunk of noncult members would buy into the bullshit. He deserves to be impeached. He deserves to be behind bars. But it's a risky, risky move at this point and the thought of 4 more years of this is unimaginable.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)a failed impeachment would not be good for trump, but may be bad for congress. the two are not the same
OnDoutside
(19,962 posts)impeachment ?
History will look and say "Oh, Dems didn't have the votes" and move on. Where is the fact based evidence that there is an upside in the Grand Old Duke of York marching his men up the hill, only to march them down again, looking ridiculous. STOP THIS NONSENSE.
kentuck
(111,103 posts)...they impeached Bill Clinton.
We don't know for a fact that 20 Repubs would not vote to convict, especially if more evidence were to come out.
Why should the House attemot to pass any legislation at all? Since Repubs are going to kill it in the Senate? Why don't we wait until we have a veto-proof majority in the Senate? Why waste our time?
OnDoutside
(19,962 posts)Dems would look like idiots trying to impeach without the votes. Trump would weaponize it. Dems won the midterms by advocating a better health system.
In any case the better way forward is to beat him at the polls. Seriously, I'm annoyed at myself for replying to a post that is so devoid of tactical awareness. Get over it, build a 2020 Democratic bridge.
kentuck
(111,103 posts)Nobody knows what the vote might be when all the evidence is laid out. A vote against impeachment could be just as politically dangerous as a vote for impeachment. We don't know.
kimbutgar
(21,163 posts)He is so thin skinned that all the criticism and unfolding of his misdeeds will become unbearable. He will have a hugggge breakdown on TV and even some of his cult members might back away from him.
while we all want impeachment with McConnell in charge of the senate it WILL not happen. Its a pipe dream and I dont think the Democrats will be blamed for not removing him from office. He will detonate himself as we poke at him like a hornets nest that finally implodes. I see him confessing to his misdeeds and admitting he colluded with Russia, making a bunch of money off being president and getting help from China and Saudi Arabia. And then being arrogant Into believing he is untouchable.
Death by a thousand cuts.
kentuck
(111,103 posts)Such as a national disaster or a shocking terrorist attack, for example. Then, there might be a different perspective. In the meantime, we can cross our fingers and hope nothing dreadful happens.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)BlueWI
(1,736 posts)It used to be said that we're a country of laws, not men.
Scratch that out.
Harker
(14,024 posts)for a very long time. Every new outrage brings them closer to their goal of permanent rule. Every weakly challenged crime they commit emboldens them to continue crushing reason and justice.
He needs to be impeached. It's hardly a waste of time to declare that the bullshit stops now.
pansypoo53219
(20,981 posts)hell, the electoral college should have dumped his ass.
NNYCDN51
(58 posts)just to fuck with this asshole. Whether or not he's impeached doesn't really matter to me.
JUST FUCK HIM UP .... could easily take up the rest of his term.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... them OoJ and putting those who are willing to do Red Don's bidding in jail
JI7
(89,252 posts)UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)is going to be very unkind to the Republiscums of this era...no doubt about it.
elfin
(6,262 posts)or Hillary's. Or Barack's. Or women. Or minorities undervoting due to disgust and/or apathy. You get the idea.
However, IMO, Pelosi is always right.
I have declared myself a proud member of "Pelosi's Posse."
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)ecstatic
(32,712 posts)Looks like anything goes. If trump decides to make himself dictator, he can do that. No one would stop him.
elleng
(130,974 posts)brooklynite
(94,598 posts)Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)brooklynite
(94,598 posts)Historic NY
(37,451 posts)Lithos
(26,403 posts)1) The issue is not just Trump, but the whole corrupt Republican Party. The truth is that when their form of Conservatism was not supported Democratically - they have abandoned Democracy to try and maintain dominance. Getting rid of Trump is not a fix by itself and will expend points needed in the bigger fight.
2) The Republicans have *always* had the ability to file for impeachment just as the Democrats. To try and say only Democrats can do this is simply silly. They have seen the evidence and had two years to do something, but failed to do so (see above). Again, the Democrats have to deal with this imbalance first.
Also, impeachment is a tactical level event - there is much greater strategic gain to keep this con artist front and center. Unless you also can take Pence out of the equation - things will and can get worse. Trump is at least a polarizer. The victory to win at this time is in the ballot box for 2020. We must get a Democratic President and maintain at least the House and hopefully neuter McConnell.
And for Karma - Once Trump is out of office the various States have plenty on hand to get his fat ass and his criminal children behind bars for the rest of their lives. Karma will happen.
kentuck
(111,103 posts)He's doing ninety miles an hour so we will get there much quicker, if we don't have an accident?
Lithos
(26,403 posts)it implies things are better by removing a single actor - driver in your analogy. Trump is just the clown face and beneficiary to a whole group of people who are driving things off the rails. I think they would have preferred some one else and would welcome the chance to replace him with someone who is not as remarkable.
If you want an analogy - Trump is the mosquito who causes an itch so that you are aware there are many other mosquitos sucking your blood - they would rather see him go so they can quietly go back to feasting on your blood while you remain blissfully unaware.
VOX
(22,976 posts)Of course, who doesnt want to go after that scofflaw with tar and feathers? Hes earned it several times over. And if *anyone* deserves to be impeached, its this dangerous buffoon. And yet, when emotions cool a bit...
As you say, a longer-term strategy offers the best return on effort expended. The time will go shooting by, so the emphasis now should be on developing a winning platform and reaching common ground for all with the eventual Democratic candidate.
Baltimike
(4,146 posts)Raine
(30,540 posts)redstateblues
(10,565 posts)It was a smart and practical move authored by Speaker Pelosi.
obnoxiousdrunk
(2,910 posts)redstateblues
(10,565 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,871 posts)Not holding Trump accountable would be far worse.
tclambert
(11,087 posts)Nixon goes to trial. Maybe, being the last smart Republican, he pleads guilty, or more likely, nolo contendere (like Agnew did), and accepts a reduced sentence at a minimum security Club Fed prison.
We would have an America where elementary school teachers could tell the children that "in America, no one is above the law." They used to teach that. I swear it's true. I mentioned that to a current teacher and he laughed and laughed. No teacher today--post Nixon, post Iran Contra, post OJ, post waterboarding--would consider lying to the kiddies like that.
SCantiGOP
(13,871 posts)It would have made a powerful and lasting statement about equal justice under the law.
The whole philosophy was, that by losing the Presidency and his legacy, Nixon had already suffered enough and we didn't need to prosecute him again.
Bullshit. That line of thought is now used any time someone rich or famous is caught acted blatantly breaking the law. The regular people end up in court, and the poorer you are the more penalty you are going to get.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Joe941
(2,848 posts)scardycat
(169 posts)The Dems should say it is our duty to put forth before the people what the orange one has done and then lay out what it is and then ask the rethugs what you going to do about it huh? If they do nothing... shame the hell out of them..make them look weak!! Advertise on tv and let the American people know the rethugs arent doing their job and what lazy corrupted ass hats they are. People that dont follow politics just might want to know this.
Socal31
(2,484 posts)American-Taliban Pence in the incumbent position with the potential of 9 years as POTUS? With instant auto-pardons of everyone in the admin?
Let's do the ground work and vote him out.
Dave Starsky
(5,914 posts)We will all be viewed as the pathetic, cowardly "Good Germans" of the 21st Century, and we will deserve it.
the_sly_pig
(741 posts)It is congresses constitutional duty to impeach. Convicted or not. And if there is a future let it judge the f***ing senate republicans for not convicting and cowardice.
kentuck
(111,103 posts)Right answer!
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Speaker Pelosi knows that the math and public approval isn't there....and She knows WAY more than anyone of us posting here do.
the_sly_pig
(741 posts)Which is under attack in my opinion. Im sick and tired of the wait and see option. Do something before its too late. But then again it might already be too late. The new normal is here to stay...
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Election day is the something that will have a result. The U.S. is very resilient.
Impeachment without Conviction....plays into Dumpster's hand.
the_sly_pig
(741 posts).. to reveal their true selves. Do this by finding drumpf not guilty in the face of overwhelming evidence. The time of spinelessness needs to be over.
matt819
(10,749 posts)Impeaching him in the House is one thing. No prob.
Convicting him in the Senate something else entirely. Big prob.
Overall, then, waste of time. Accomplishes nothing.
What happens in 2020 happens. For better, if we win. Or worse, if he wins. We'll deal with it. We have to. The alternative is the destruction of the republic.
And, unlike Nixon, Trump will not resign under threat of impeachment.
Unless the Mueller report drops some bombs or Trump does something so egregious that the Senate might convict, then this could change. Until then, could we please stop beating this dead horse?
All of that said, I'm listening to a book about Hitler's rise to power, Hitler's Compromises by Nathan Stoltzfus. The parallels, while not necessarily exactly like what we're seeing now in the US, are nonetheless remarkable. Still, doesn't change my comments on impeachment.
Zambero
(8,964 posts)Impeachment alone is not a corrective action, unless a bipartisan Senate is willing to put the good of the country above the majority party maintaining power.
kentuck
(111,103 posts)Is that not important?
Or just not as important as winning the next election?
homegirl
(1,429 posts)The NRA has funneled Russian oligarch money to the campaigns of many GOP Senators. Almost $3 MILLION to Mitch McConnell.
Remember impeachment is the first step and the turtle man will not even let it on the floor. REMEMBER GARLAND!
Vote Trump OUT! Then throw him to the waiting wolves of SDNY!
Bettie
(16,110 posts)is that impeachment is not a thing anymore for Republican presidents.
Our leadership isn't interested in it. Principles don't matter.
mountain grammy
(26,624 posts)The Iran Contra actors were convicted and then pardoned.
Nixon was pardoned.
Bush and Cheney were never made to answer for the lies, the torture, the countless deaths and suffering and the complete mismanagement of the government. They just walked away. Fucking Cheney got a new heart!
The list goes on and now it's in high gear. CBS morning news guy called trump's border policy "tough." Guess if they start shooting refugees the immigration policy will just be called "tougher."
Hell yes, we should impeach! Goddam republicans get away with murder. But here's the thing about American history and how it will look at this time. Most Americans don't know or care to know American history. If they did, we'd be in a whole different place.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Though I think our messaging around the issue has been pretty weak.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,350 posts)The senate will not convict, so he would just be emboldened by that failure. (As if he needs to be emboldened)
In the unlikely event that he's convicted, our reward is - President Pence.
This is a no-win endeavor.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)but it does set an ugly fucking precedent...
If nothing Trump has done is impeachment-worthy then we might as well just abolish impeachment...
0rganism
(23,957 posts)the human tale seems spun out. maybe whatever evolution comes up with from cockroaches will make a better run for the future, or the AI's could start over if we hit the singularity before self-destructing.