Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Soph0571

(9,685 posts)
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 10:37 AM Apr 2019

What is the purpose of the death penalty?



Death penalty repeal is sweeping across many states for good reason. The state sanctioned murder of a stranger and the glee and blood lust at the death of another is just not a good look for any grown up.

Why have it?

Is it to help the victims’ family with the grieving process? Grief is grief. I cannot see that the taking of another life will really offer any comfort at all. Maybe to a few, but not to the majority.

Is to punish the perpetrator of the crime? I am not sure. Dead is dead. Is dead worse than spending your life in a cage? Probably not I would have thought.

Is its purpose to offer a deterrent to violent criminals, to stop them taking a life? If it is it apparently does not work, does it?

So, what is the death penalty for?

It rather takes away the possibility of redemption doesn't it? People talk about and eye for eye, but do we truly want public policy on incarceration and punishment to be dictated by a verse in the bible written 5000 years ago?

It seems to me that the death penalty is all about vengeance. A state sanctioned policy of vengeance. A policy based on anger and emotion, used with a holier than thou sanctimonious smugness to sanction state murder. In my humble opinion that is never a good look for policy decision making, policy should look to the best impulses in us, not the worst.
29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
What is the purpose of the death penalty? (Original Post) Soph0571 Apr 2019 OP
Retribution. Just Retribution. MineralMan Apr 2019 #1
That's why many civilized countries have abolished it... Wounded Bear Apr 2019 #4
In that area, we are locked into a time that is long gone. MineralMan Apr 2019 #6
I blame religion for lots of societal ills... Wounded Bear Apr 2019 #8
Jesus was a death penalty victim. I like to point that out to Christians who think they're pro-life lapucelle Apr 2019 #28
To teach people not to kill? panader0 Apr 2019 #2
Sarcasm noted, but the death penalty has a deterrance value of one... Wounded Bear Apr 2019 #10
i would rather 1,000 murderers spend life w/o parole rampartc Apr 2019 #3
Revenge SHRED Apr 2019 #5
I do not believe the death penalty is moral Codeine Apr 2019 #7
Revenge. NurseJackie Apr 2019 #9
Revenge crazytown Apr 2019 #11
wedge issue... Dennis Donovan Apr 2019 #12
Revenge and power DFW Apr 2019 #13
The DP takes away from murderers the one thing they want the most... aikoaiko Apr 2019 #14
Politics. johnp3907 Apr 2019 #15
There is one reason Cartoonist Apr 2019 #16
It looks to me MyOwnPeace Apr 2019 #26
No Cartoonist Apr 2019 #27
To promote and uphold the "Just World Fallacy." harumph Apr 2019 #17
Human sacrifice. Seriously. That is my sociological analysis. ck4829 Apr 2019 #18
It can provide closure for the victim sm6 Apr 2019 #19
I started to agree with you... PeeJ52 Apr 2019 #23
How can the death penalty, as it is administered in the US, be a deterrent? customerserviceguy Apr 2019 #20
Death penalty supporters often bolster their views by saying "The families of the victims Aristus Apr 2019 #21
Death used to be the penalty for much lesser crimes like stealing horses Buckeyeblue Apr 2019 #22
The last time we had a wave of DP repeals Igel Apr 2019 #24
To kill. Iggo Apr 2019 #25
Vengeance, and a reminder of the power of the state. WhiskeyGrinder Apr 2019 #29

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
1. Retribution. Just Retribution.
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 10:41 AM
Apr 2019

It doesn't help with anything. It should have been abolished long, long ago. The state should not execute anyone.

Wounded Bear

(58,670 posts)
4. That's why many civilized countries have abolished it...
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 10:44 AM
Apr 2019

That the US hasn't speaks volumes about our level of "civilization."

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
6. In that area, we are locked into a time that is long gone.
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 10:47 AM
Apr 2019

I blame the Old Testament for that. It is full of ugly old rule-based things. Oddly enough, it is Christians who support capital punishment with the most vigor. While that makes almost no sense, it is true, nevertheless.

Wounded Bear

(58,670 posts)
8. I blame religion for lots of societal ills...
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 10:54 AM
Apr 2019

most notably, the ability to live with paradoxes like "civilized" countries acting like the Mongol horde, etc.

Christianity has always been a rather violent religion. Even Christ had his dark side. Overall, though, I think Christianity learned a lot from the Romans when they took over that civilization. Nobody did retribution like the Romans did. They were known to depopulate entire regions for some slight to the Empire. Some of the most vicious wars in European history involved one Christian sect fighting another.

Yeah, I earned my cynical view of religion.

lapucelle

(18,276 posts)
28. Jesus was a death penalty victim. I like to point that out to Christians who think they're pro-life
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 01:31 PM
Apr 2019

because they're anti-abortion, but who still favor retribution and vengeance through a cruel and calculated "punishment" administered by the law.

I was very happy that Pope Francis recently changed the official church teaching on the death penalty.

ROME - According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the death penalty now is no longer admissible under any circumstances.

The Vatican announced on Thursday Pope Francis approved changes to the compendium of Catholic teaching published under Pope John Paul II.

“The death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person,” reads the Catechism of the Catholic Church now on the death penalty, with the addition that the Church “works with determination for its abolition worldwide.”

This is a departure from what the document, approved under Pope John Paul II in 1992, says on the matter: “Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”


https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2018/08/02/pope-francis-changes-teaching-on-death-penalty-its-inadmissible/

Wounded Bear

(58,670 posts)
10. Sarcasm noted, but the death penalty has a deterrance value of one...
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 10:55 AM
Apr 2019

that is, it deters exactly one person to "not kill again."

rampartc

(5,413 posts)
3. i would rather 1,000 murderers spend life w/o parole
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 10:44 AM
Apr 2019

than execute a single innocent person.

many of our fellow citizens disagree.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
7. I do not believe the death penalty is moral
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 10:48 AM
Apr 2019

or acceptable in the modern world, but I also do not believe in redemption, not even a little bit. I have zero faith in the innate goodness of most humans.

Those who commit violent crimes crimes that extinguish the existence of a human life are unredeemable and do not ever need to live in civil society. Cage them.

DFW

(54,410 posts)
13. Revenge and power
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:07 AM
Apr 2019

It gives people the power to end the life of another without having to suffer the same penalty. For some, this power is far better than money or fame.

The EU made banning it a requirement for membership, which the Turks protested about for decades. They're still not about to get in, but that's another story.

aikoaiko

(34,172 posts)
14. The DP takes away from murderers the one thing they want the most...
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:08 AM
Apr 2019

...and the thing they took away from someone else.

I don't care that murderers will have a shorter period of time to find redemption. By my way of thinking murderers who redeem themselves would also find the death penalty suitable punishment.

It's technically not vengeance because the harmed party or family is not the one pursuing and inflicting the death penalty.

Life without parole is a humane and merciful sentence. It is a far lighter sentence and punishment than the DP. We rarely see a convicted murder argue for the DP instead of life without parole. A life sentence still allows the opportunity for some measure of joy in the murderers' lives and I can see why some families of murder victims, prosecutors, and the general public might think that is not just.

Having said all that I can live with banishing the death penalty. I won't argue for banishing it, but I won't fight against it.

johnp3907

(3,732 posts)
15. Politics.
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:17 AM
Apr 2019

Judges and governors know that executing “certain types of people “ earns votes. Good for prosecutors’ careers too.

Cartoonist

(7,317 posts)
16. There is one reason
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:28 AM
Apr 2019

I am still opposed to the death penalty.

It keeps the killer from killing again. He can still kill fellow inmates and prison guards. He can escape and kill again.

harumph

(1,902 posts)
17. To promote and uphold the "Just World Fallacy."
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:28 AM
Apr 2019

Which is so very essential to ensuring that the privilege of the wealthy and
powerful be attributed to supernatural "favor," and that "bad" people (and poor)
people earn their own fate.

ck4829

(35,077 posts)
18. Human sacrifice. Seriously. That is my sociological analysis.
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:33 AM
Apr 2019

People are executed, and one of the strongest arguments is that it will reduce the crime rate.

Not much different than the argument a thousand years ago that sacrificing someone will bring good weather and harvests.

There are religious components and actual rituals to the death penalty, we call them protocols. Everything from the last words, last meal, death row, etc.; all parts of this.

It's not called human sacrifice... but it's human sacrifice, just done in the name of the state, rather than a feathered serpent.

 

sm6

(8 posts)
19. It can provide closure for the victim
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:37 AM
Apr 2019

.....and let’s be completely honest, some animals just need to be put down. When a person that has raped and murdered a child, or child molester, torturer, maiming, dismembered, mass murderer, etc... is put to death, Justice has been served. IMO, the death penalty should be saved for only the most egregious crimes.

 

PeeJ52

(1,588 posts)
23. I started to agree with you...
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:59 AM
Apr 2019

because I get so angry at first, then saddened and ultimately deeply depressed when these helpless children are murdered and I read of these other atrocities you list. I can't help but think, how can these people do these things? Then I realized, these aren't people. Well, they are human beings, but something is wrong with them.

Killing them would do no good, but to satisfy our need for vengeance. Maybe it's best we confine them for life. Study them. Find out what happened to them that made them do these terrible things so perhaps we could stop another from doing it in the future. Why do some feel sadness when they see tragedy occurs to others and others feel joy?

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
20. How can the death penalty, as it is administered in the US, be a deterrent?
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:38 AM
Apr 2019

When you have a 2% chance of being executed some 25-30 years after committing the most heinous of offenses, that doesn't sound like a deterrent to me.

The Rosenbergs were arrested in 1950, and executed in 1953. That seemed to have been a deterrent, as we did not see too many more cases of giving the most serious classified information to the Russians.

Aristus

(66,388 posts)
21. Death penalty supporters often bolster their views by saying "The families of the victims
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:43 AM
Apr 2019

need closure."

I'm not sure why the death of the perp is the only way to achieve closure, but that's just me.

Murder is a way of depriving a person of life in a way the victim can't reflect on. Prison is a way of depriving the murderer of life in such a way that they have nothing do to for the rest of their lives but reflect on it. Knowing that would give me very satisfying closure.

Buckeyeblue

(5,499 posts)
22. Death used to be the penalty for much lesser crimes like stealing horses
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 11:58 AM
Apr 2019

Probably because the state didn't have the means to incarcerate a large number of people for a long period. It's almost as if the punishment was if you can't live by the rules of society you can't live.

The problem with the death penalty is you can't undo it. What if you execute an innocent person? We see people exonerated after years in prison.

I think life in prison is just enough. I can't imagine anyone serving a life sentence has much joy in their life.

Igel

(35,320 posts)
24. The last time we had a wave of DP repeals
Sun Apr 7, 2019, 12:11 PM
Apr 2019

it was because we decided to move to rehabilitation.

Think of it as secular redemption; there is no secular version, so the best we ask for is "say you don't do it again and give us evidence."

Problem was, what's good evidence? Not murdering somebody when you're in a high-security prison? That's a pretty low bar for something that has a pretty fat-tailed risk if you release somebody. So they tended to sit behind bars for a long, long time.

Right. Being in prison for 40 years is merciful. Esp. when you get out at age 62, haven't held a job, and don't even have social security to fall back on, no family because parents are dead and at age 20, when you did the crime, you didn't have wife and kids. (If you had, there'd be a lower risk of doing the crime.)

Then the pendulum shifted, the DP came back, and the reason was easy. Not revenge. Just elimination.

When I set a mouse trap to dispose of a mouse, I don't chortle and say, "Take that, foul vermin, destroyer of insulation, purveyor of fecal pellets, conveyor of disease! I have got my revenge on thee, o roden most vile!" No, I pick up the thing and throw it away, glad to be rid of it but wondering if there are any more inconveniences to be rid of.

When teachers get the truly problematic kid out of their classrooms, they don't think, "Aha! I have wrought my revenge!" Some may think rehabilitation. Most are just glad to have the problem gone so that they don't have to deal with it any more. Executing somebody 10 years after they killed somebody is hardly "a policy based on anger and emotion."

Same with death penalty. Or drug dealers. Or the irritating guy who insists on playing his music at 100 dB each Saturday because he thinks that it makes the block more festive. Even if your thing is alternative rock, classical music, hip-hop, or salsa, you get R&B. Or whatever. The point's clear. The immature seek vengeance; most just seek peace and elimination of the problem so we can move on.

The Biblical admonition is fairly clear. Israel was to be a holy, righteous people. Having a killer in their midst defiled them. If it was by accident, there was a place to be set up where the accidental killer couldn't be touched. There was to be no mercy for the guilty. *However* punishment was left to the family, and the family could work out its own deal. If the murderer killed the prime breadwinner, an important person, then killing the killer leveled the score in a fairly purely economic way. You kill somebody, your clan will suffer. Don't do it. (Deterrence.) At the same time, if the murdered person was low ranking, his net value could be made up in some other way and the clan made whole.

Since that's how justice was often meted out--on a communal or collective basis, where it wasn't the individual's guilt that mattered but making sure the other clan or tribe suffered proportionately, in a way this actually made life a bit more fair. Westerners still are WEIRDed out by this idea when they see it--take how justice is negotiated in some traditional Arab societies, with diya being paid. Retaliation's an option, as well, but this lets things end; much of the fighting in Iraq was because diya wasn't possible or young males' honor required retaliation. But if the killer dies from a rockfall before he can be executed by the murdered kin's go'el (back to OT, not Arab cultures), then economic and social justice was served. We translate go'el 'avenger of blood' in some contexts; in other cases, we translate it "redeemer." Messianic groups refer to Jesus as go'aleinu, 'our avenger of blood' or 'our redeemer', because he takes the fall for Xians. The lamb at passover was to avert that fate, since the firstborn male would bear the sins of those he was responsible for, having a double portion of any inheritance (in Hebrew law). The English translators gutted much of the meaning by assuming there could be no link between the OT and the NT folk, however obvious the connections.

In another sense, it made every life matter, not just that of the group. The group would enforce justice, esp. for the weak (ideally, not that this happened most of the time). Every life was holy and to be respected and deserved to have the rules implemented fairly (which meant 'unbiased'--the writer that you shouldn't favor the wealthy at trial because of his wealth and importance also wrote that you shouldn't favor the poor because of his poverty). At the same time, there were some harsh penalties for doing things that lead to people being wrongfully convicted in the US. If you lied at trial to convict the wrong person, you were subject to the same penalty the person got. If you lied to sentence a man to death and it was found out after he was killed that the wrong person was killed, you've asked for the death penalty. (Errors happen; this is intentional.) This was complicated when there was no strong, central authority exerting strong control over everywhere. In other words, the usual state of affairs.

The legal system as set up wasn't an individual owing allegiance to the all-important group. If an individual did something wrong, there was no jail where the individual, having raped a woman or stolen an ox or defrauded a widow owed "his debt" to everybody else and paid "society". He owed his debt to the person he wronged (and to God, presumably). He made good by doing what was necessary, having his face rubbed in the wrong he'd done until he'd expiated the wrong by making compensation, if that was possible. There was no "40-year to life" cruelty and no mechanism for it. As I said, in our system it's deemed more just to lock up a person so that he exits with nothing at retirement age, often in poor health, and lives in destitution for what remains in his wreck of a life. Of course, secular thought has room for the idea that death may be better (unless it's euthanasia, which is also staging a come-back in popular, secular thought, but this gets back to a utilitarian argument, not one based in any sort of traditional morality) and, in the end, for many cultures, even death isn't a real hurdle when it comes to justice.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»What is the purpose of th...