So.

[sheshe2]

Is this is where we want to go?

Don't touch. Ever. This seems to be the thought process. Never invade a woman's space, nor a mans. That is a pretty broad view.

I touch, not often though do so with both men and women. With friends a pat on the back, a hug, hold tightly to their hand in friendship or grief. I have done that with strangers as well. There is nothing sexual about it, none at all. You are in sinc with the person in front of you.

Our world is a pretty cruel place right now. A little bit of love can bless your soul. I for one do not want a robotic world that leaves us without a heart and a sense of kindness. A touch, a human touch that makes us believe we are still alive. Living, feeling human beings.

If you don't fear the touch of human kindness then let us join hands and try to save our world.

[fierywoman]

1. I'm totally with you on this.

[Niagara]

2. Bless you for this insightful post, Sheshe

I never knew that showing compassion towards another human being was considered uncomfortable sexual advances.

Hugs to you!

[sheshe2]

5. I will take that hug and raise you one, Niagara.

[onit2day]

37. I don't believe any of these people claimed Biden was being "sexual".

Just "uncomfortable". Please don't put words in their mouths. The word "sexual" is not appropriate here...in this situation.

[Progressive dog]

49. No men are accusing Biden of touching

them and making them feel uncomfortable. When several men do that, I'll believe that it's not a sexual accusation.

[WheelWalker]

3. I'm not much of a tactile person, myself. And I need my space. I can, however,

generally accept a touch - as long as it is accompanied by a smile ("smile when you touch me, bro&quot . But even so, I might not like the cut of their jib, and if I say, "please, don't touch me again" well that needs to be the end of it.

I certainly don't fear or want to discourage the touch of human kindness. I'm all in for joining hands with you and trying to save our world.

[sheshe2]

6. With you and all you said, WheelWalker.

[onit2day]

38. We just intuitively know boundaries. Some just push them as innocent gestures.

We should be more concerned with the Anita Hill hearings or Biden's bankruptcy regressions.

[WheelWalker]

47. I'm not in the least concerned about Biden's record as a Senator.

[bhikkhu]

65. Some people don't

Personally, I have no clue, never really have. I was always afraid of offending someone so by habit I don't touch anyone, even my wife when I was married. Maybe my kids when they were little, and they were very huggy and physical, but not after they were teenagers.

Two instances of physical contact in the last 8 months; my neighbor hugged me at thanksgiving when I brought the turkey for our big dinner, and my last daughter living at home hugged me when she moved away for college. So, it does seem to me that it's a cold world getting colder. If I ever thought about being more physical, it just doesn't seem like a safe idea (much less so these days), and I have no idea of how to go about it anyway.

[Iggo]

4. It's people getting high on outrage.

Weird to see it outside of religious circles.

[Cha]

7. Mahalo, she! Human Kindness..

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/joe-bidens-affectionate-warmth-what-makes-him-great/586435/

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128753105

[sheshe2]

9. Ah.

On the single occasion when my family was invited to a gathering on the grounds of the Naval Observatory, the vice president crossed a patio to greet my kids, introduced them to similarly aged guests, showed them where to find towels, hauled floats out of a shed, and cajoled them into the pool. This story shows me the same thing I see any time any host stops mingling to meet the needs of his least important guests—here’s someone who cares for the meekest among us.

The new narrative about Biden suggests that he is exploitative and solipsistic in his encounters with women. Although I did not witness what the women who have come forward to criticize Biden experienced, and only they can say how these encounters felt to them, it seems relevant that Biden is touchy-feely with everyone—not just women, but children and men, too. My kids fought to be plus-ones for Biden events because of the type of behavior that is being called into question. He habitually nuzzled, hugged, and kidded around with them. But he wasn’t just physical. He tuned in emotionally. In the below photo, while a long line of influentials wait for his attention, Biden is listening to my 7-year-old’s concerns about Syrian kids.

This story shows me the same thing I see any time any host stops mingling to meet the needs of his least important guests—here’s someone who cares for the meekest among us.


Thank you for this link, Cha!

[Cha]

15. Mahalo nui loa to you, she..

for bringing more of the story on your thread!

Biden is a treasure... that's why so many of us are standing by him.

[sheshe2]

18. I just reread it.

I have something in my eye.

Hugs Cha!

[Cha]

19. Hugs to you.. we're

huggers

I understand if people aren't.. but I don't know any.. just the opposite.

[brer cat]

8. We need more kindness, not less.

[sheshe2]

11. This is an excerpt from Cha's post.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211986443#post9

On the single occasion when my family was invited to a gathering on the grounds of the Naval Observatory, the vice president crossed a patio to greet my kids, introduced them to similarly aged guests, showed them where to find towels, hauled floats out of a shed, and cajoled them into the pool. This story shows me the same thing I see any time any host stops mingling to meet the needs of his least important guests—here’s someone who cares for the meekest among us.

Yep.

Kindness. A little bit of warmth to touch your soul.

Cha's post is here.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211986443#post7

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

10. Friends, relatives, even acquaintances are one thing.

Total strangers are another.

Also, some people just come across as creepy. Mind you, I'm not suggesting that any of those currently in the news would come across that way, but I'm remembering a man I knew in a recent job I had. I can't recall specifics, but he came across as creepy and inappropriate. Other men could say the same thing and not come across that way. And it wasn't just me. I discussed this man with a co-worker, and she agreed.

[Cha]

17. Yeah, "total strangers"..

Link to tweet

[MH1]

32. There's some truth to that, BUT

1. a lot depends on context. A LOT.

2. never assume malice (ill intent) first.

Judging someone I just met as "creepy" breaks #2. Doesn't mean I've never done it. I just try to keep judgments like that to myself, at least until there's substantial evidence.

If someone I don't know well touches me in a way I don't expect or even find somewhat uncomfortable, my mind doesn't jump immediately to "pervert" or "creepy". It just doesn't. A pattern of behavior that clearly points to inappropriateness, is another matter.

[sheshe2]

44. Very well said, MH1.

[Demobrat]

12. I'm a woman. I don't like being touched

by people I’m not especially close to, and especially not by men, business handshakes excepted. But that’s it. Unless we know each other on a deeply personal level, there is no reason for you to touch me. No reason acceptable to me, anyway. Sorry that’s just how it is, and I know Im not alone.

[sheshe2]

16. No sorry needed, Demobrat.

None at all.

I understand completely.

Internet hug.

[BootinUp]

13. Really. K&R

[lpbk2713]

14. It's good to hear a voice of reason.

Thank you.

[MLAA]

20. A touch I have not forgotten in nearly 50 years

As a kid I had orthopedic surgeries every year (sometimes more than one a year) from about 5 years old to 18 years old. Thankfully all that work now allows me to do anything I want including walking five or six miles most days. During all this my mom was at the hospital with me every day and my dad joined every night after work.

But one time, she stepped away for 15 minutes. During that time an on duty intern decided the full leg cast needed to be cut down the middle because it was too tight. Out came the old cast saw. After a minute or two I yelled, you are cutting me and started crying. He swore the saw couldn’t cut as the blade it vibrated and didn’t go around. It burned like hell and I just knew he was cutting me. I continued to cry and tell him he was cutting me. A stranger, a women, came over and held my hand. After about 10 mins it was over.

I never saw her again. Several month later when my surgeon was removing the cast, he said, hey I don’t recall an incision on the front of your leg. I said, no you didn’t make that incision ...the guy with the cast saw did. My surgeon was furious and to this day I have a prominent 4 inch scar down the front of my shin.

Sorry for the long post to say, I never have forgotten the stranger’s kind touch.

[sheshe2]

22. No sorries.

Huge hugs.

I am so glad you had a hand to hold. MLAA.

[DRoseDARs]

21. What gets me is how weird this phenomenon is vis-a-vis other cultures, even European.

Obvious example are the French. Flip side, Scandinavians apparently also dislike uninvited touching. Then there are cultures that are more severe in some respects. One sub-Saharan culture has a norm where if a small child directly looks a parent in the eye, it's taken as a sign of defiance and is likely to earn the kid a smack. Small children. Looking at things. Including their pare... *SMACK* DON'T YOU LOOK AT ME!! The fuck? Do we all remember when Bush the Dimmer walked hand-in-hand with the Saudi prince (No, not "that" Saudi prince, a different one)? That (or arm-in-arm) is normal in the Middle East whereas here it's pretty much seen as GAAAAAYYY!!! as the derision goes.

Physical contact is an innate part of Human social interaction and has been since long before even mammals existed. People like myself who have dislike of it are an outlier in the larger Human population. I manage not to lose my shit instantly and cry about the violation of my personal space because I'm an adult and can handle it like an adult. Yeah, I take a very dim view of the people conflating their #I_Uncomfortable with #MeToo (hat tip to boston bean).

[JackInGreen]

23. K&R

Thank you, she.

[Hekate]

24. Common sense and compassion...

[KT2000]

25. for the uncomfortable

I suggest social skills are in order. In an instance when a person feels uncomfortable, it is their situation so they must handle it. This can be done by being forthright, or using humor, or whatever skills a person comes up with. This is all part of our socialization process. Kids are even learning this in grade school. It is just not a biggie.
We just can't lose our humanity like you described over all this.

[fleabiscuit]

26. I'm not going there. If the stark message of never giving an empathic touch is wrong for us...

Then it is wrong for Joe too.

[NBachers]

27. I did some way-beyond-the-call-of-duty work to help a woman today. I know I'm older than her dad,

and she was a head taller than me. We fell into a good rapport while working on her project; she was holding, helping, suggesting, and participating. Young and enthusiastic

When we'd finished, and it turned out great, she thanked me and said, "I'd hug you, but . . . "

I raised my finger at her and said, in mock strictness, "Don't be Joe Biden!" It broke the ice, we both laughed, and I could tell she was glad to be in on the joke. It allowed us to both part on the same shared page.

So . . . we're not all going there. And if you and I ever meet, you'd better not keep your distance.

[riversedge]

28. great post and I agree.

[we can do it]

29. Thank you❤️

[aikoaiko]

30. Our strengths are also our weaknesses. Its a cliche, but I find it more true as I get older.

I see it my life and others.

When we are in sync with others, physical contact/affection is wonderful (as you say), but when we aren't and don't realize it people can feel very negative about the contact. Some with histories of harassment may experience the feelings associated with physical harassment when the well-intentioned, but out of sync contact happens. So often harassers use the plausible deniability well-intentioned contact to hide or justify their behavior.

I think we'll find balance on this issue. Certainly, the solution is not to stop hugging all people.

[bernie59]

31. There is the political world where power and control

reign supreme, with addiction to the sweet nectar of outrage, and then there is the real world of people.

[BlueMTexpat]

33. I'm with you, SS2!

[Aristus]

34. I think this issue should always be approached on a case-by-case basis.

I have several attractive women on my staff. I'm not drawn to them in any way by their attractiveness; I respect them because of their contributions to our clinical team. Neither of them has ever touched me in any way, other than in the incidental ways that happen when performing procedures on patients (passing instruments and so forth.) No arm on shoulder or arm on arm, no hugs, nothing.

Because of this, I have never initiated any kind of physical contact with them, and observe a fairly wide area of personal space around them. This is my way of showing them the respect they deserve as co-workers and as human beings. If they were the kind of people who engaged in casual, friendly touching, I might feel confortable reciprocating. But unless that happens, I will maintain a respectful distance.

A woman on my pub trivia team is very physically demonstrative, and hugs hello and goodbye all the time. "I'm a hugger", she told me when we first met. That's a completely different kettle of fish, and I have no reservations giving her a hug when we meet. I keep it short and friendly. As I said, case-by-case basis.

[MadDAsHell]

35. I'm on board with no touching.

The default position of political junkies (including many of us on here) seems to be guilt by party affiliation, so if that's going to continue to be the deepest analytical skills we can expect from the majority of our population, then hell yes, we need to move to "no touching."

[rictofen]

36. There's a happy medium somewhere between never touching

And what Biden was doing.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

52. Ding! Ding! Ding!... We hava winner!!!

Never heard anyone argue, much less even suggest, that the new rule should be no touching allowed, ever. That minimizes what many women are saying.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[leftstreet]

59. +1

The reactionary directions here are troubling

I haven't seen anyone argue 'no touching' as a viable response to inappropriate touching

Weird indeed

[PDittie]

66. +2

"touching" versus "no touching" is NOT the issue.

[NastyRiffraff]

39. Thank you, sheshe

There's a big difference between affectionate touching between friends and loved ones and unwanted invasion of someone's space or worse, sexual assault.

We need connections with other people. Sometimes a hug can do wonders. It's important, though, to read people's signals. Some people hate to be touched and if we pay attention we can see that.

[Poiuyt]

40. Kick

[sheshe2]

42. Thank you, NastyRiffraff.

I agree, human touch is important to our ourselves and our humanity. Yet always be aware, read the signs, watch for them, listen to them.

Internet hug to you.

[Ferrets are Cool]

41. One of your best posts.

I am sick to death of the direction we are headed.

[sheshe2]

45. Thanks, FaC.

[The_jackalope]

43. Societies that discourage touch become...

Well ... like ours.

[Bettie]

46. That seems to be where we are going.

Never touch. Never connect...never even talk. Texting is enough, I'm told.

[warmfeet]

48. Well, I'm not touching anyone ever again.

Not my wife, not my daughter, not my dog.

Shit, I won't even touch my house or my car.

This is fucking ridiculous.

Over reaction, much!

I think I made my car uncomfortable when I turned the key this morning.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

50. Agree 100%

[cate94]

51. Boston bean posted something similar

Being “uncomfortable” is not assault. It is not a fault of a person being kind. I’ve been in uncomfortable situations. I’ve been assaulted. I know the difference. This is searching for fault where none exists. Joe Biden is a good guy. If he turns out to be The nominee, he’ll get my vote.
Of course, whoever turns out to be the democratic nominee will get my vote. It’s a no brainer....

[redwitch]

53. Yes.

And thank you! A virtual bear hug for you!

[Beartracks]

54. Spontaneous human touch: the power comes from its SPONTANEITY.

[Me.]

55. Lovely She

[Pobeka]

56. I feel uncomfortable reading this.

So, therefore you shouldn't have written it, knowing full well someone in the universe of readers would be uncomfortable reading it.

I realize that may sound hyperbolic, or extreme. But, it is to make a point: Where exactly will this stop, this whole idea of not making someone feel uncomfortable with no knowledge of the comfort levels of every individual that we engage with for the first time, or even subsequent times?

Personally, I think the responsibility lies with the person who feels uncomfortable to have a honest, quick, *private* conversation (if possible and appropriate) with whomever makes them feel uncomfortable at the moment it happens. If the one who made the original gesture causing discomfort had no aggressive intent then it is over. Simple.

I'm for a world where we can touch each other with caring hands, eyes and minds, and it's not a big deal to receive the touch, or ask to not receive it any more.

[FormerOstrich]

57. thank you, sheshe

I always appreciate your posts. I think we seem to be very aligned in our thinking a lot of the time.

I heard a person (spokeswoman or other) of NOW on NPR today. I was becoming so upset at what she was saying. Funny that. I would have thought I would be closely aligned with NOW but I guess not.

Here's my take (tainted heavily on the interview). What makes any of us believe we can walk around in life and never have anyone offend us? I am not talking about harassment or assault. First, maybe we shouldn't be so easily offended (as I was during the interview today). Second, if it is offensive, ask the person to stop. Then if the behavior is repeated we can move on to the harassment.

I think many of us should be more accepting of what others do. If there is no ill intent I can absorb some awkwardness. I can live with a little less so others with less can have a more. I don't have to always be comfortable. I don't want to cheat others of hugs, kind touches, and closeness because it is not my thing.

Here is a saying I have always liked. I do not know the origin:

May You Have

Enough happiness to keep you sweet,

Enough trials to keep you strong,

Enough sorrow to keep you human,

Enough hope to keep you happy,

Enough failure to keep you humble,

Enough success to keep you eager,

Enough friends to give you comfort,

Enough wealth to meet your needs,

Enough enthusiasm to look forward,

Enough faith to banish depression,

Enough determination to make each day
better than yesterday.

Quote
Author unknown

[sheshe2]

60. Thanks, FormerOstrich.

I don't find Flores accusations acceptable, especially after the huge mutual hug at the podium and the selfie where she gripped his shoulder not long after her frightened moment when he 'touched her and "smelled" her hair.'

This hurts the #metoo movement. It makes it a farce. I left an abusive marriage. I made that choice, not easy. I know some can't do that, however we do have some choice and friends that help us through it.

Inappropriate Touching, I have an elbow and I know how to use it. I also know how to say, fugg off.

[George II]

58. I've never felt "uncomfortable" by a hug, or kiss, even from a MAN. At least not on the lips...

Methinks there's more behind it than just being "uncomfortable". Timing is everything.

[sheshe2]

61. She was at the podium moments later with a huge, mutual hug.

Then there was the selfie.

This hurts the #metoo movement. Diminishes it.

Just today, I am heartbroken. The Violence Against Women Act passed away by the GOP. Why? The NRA did not want it passed as it would take away to many abusers rights to bear arms.

One of the reasons I left my abusive ex? The gun I found under the mattress.

[Kind of Blue]

62. It's not where I want to go either. But the bigger question

for me is do I want to go back? Back to where the most vulnerable, a girl or boy and, of course, women are denied agency to decide and declare what is uncomfortable. I agree that the invasion of space as is blowing up in a bad way for Biden is a broad view but nevertheless, IMO, this is a good place to start. And the start for me is that good intention is not everything but being mindful of boundaries is.

There is a lifetime of memories and invaluable advice from my mom, who was molested though I believe it was much more that she couldn't express, including the rape of her blind brother by the same fucker, "a wonderful man, an elder" in their community that she revealed to me before she died, to my many experiences as a young woman to my precious daughter locked up overnight... LOL... for beating up a guy for rejection of unwanted touches - another nice guy. "It wasn't rape. I didn't even kiss her," he said in his defense, "So she didn't have to go so far," the guy claimed. But that instance was my and her grandmom's fault who taught her to quickly get over shock & awe and demand the right to exist without molestation.

Indeed, the world is cruel and perhaps will always be. But cruelty starts with the simple lack of respect of boundaries and unmitigated greed. IMHO, disrespect for boundaries will never diminish human kindness because that is our saving grace. But we should not confuse or conflate the two as a zero sum game.

[Mosby]

63. k and r

[MineralMan]

64. Kind and gentle people tend to do that.

There are people, of course, who do not want the touch of others. For whatever reason, it is uncomfortable for them. I do not want to make anyone uncomfortable, so I simply offer the handshake or the hug. If it is accepted, that's great. If not, that's OK, too. In some cases, though, people accept such touches, but regret doing so later. That's too bad, since a touch or hug cannot be undone.

[Harker]

67. When I was a nine year old boy

Odetta, on her way to the performance stage in a small Colorado restaurant, stopped and put her hand on my cheek and gently petted my head. I don't remember what she said, but I'll never forget her beautiful smile, or the love I felt from her.

That was over fifty years ago.

[peggysue2]

68. Well said, sheshe!

[sheshe2]

69. Thanks, peggysue.

[lillypaddle]

70. Well said

the public complainers may well cost us this election, and if you come after me for saying that, I don't give a shit.

[geardaddy]

71. K&R