Prominent scientists sign declaration that animals have conscious awareness, just like us

[trailmonkee]

http://io9.com/5937356/prominent-scientists-sign-declaration-that-animals-have-conscious-awareness-just-like-us

An international group of prominent scientists has signed The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness in which they are proclaiming their support for the idea that animals are conscious and aware to the degree that humans are — a list of animals that includes all mammals, birds, and even the octopus. But will this make us stop treating these animals in totally inhumane ways?

While it might not sound like much for scientists to declare that many nonhuman animals possess conscious states, it's the open acknowledgement that's the big news here. The body of scientific evidence is increasingly showing that most animals are conscious in the same way that we are, and it's no longer something we can ignore.

What's also very interesting about the declaration is the group's acknowledgement that consciousness can emerge in those animals that are very much unlike humans, including those that evolved along different evolutionary tracks, namely birds and some cephalopods.

[hunter]

1. Here you go, a DU post from March.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12284413

I have no doubts "that animals have conscious awareness."

All the dogs, cats, parrots, and rats I've shared my house with, and many of the wild animals I've met, are clearly conscious beings.

There's a young raven in our neighborhood who follows me when I walk the dogs. He's a nasty fellow because he eats eggs and baby birds, dove eggs and babies are especially tasty, and he pulls trash out of garbage cans into the street. But that's what ravens do. The crows and blue jays and blackbirds hate him. Sometimes I wake up in the morning and he's in the trees outside my window complaining about something.

I think he's complaining about humans. There's something about us that just ain't right.

[trailmonkee]

4. we have gangs of blackbirds in or neighborhood

The hit one house at a time, scrounging through the lawns and then move into the next, but always in a group? They are hilarious, i can watch them all daylong - i am guessing that they aren't big fans of humans either

[freshwest]

2. Wonder what took them so long. A matter of expanding rights, no doubt.

And the matter of measuring.

[flvegan]

3. Agree with them. A reason why I don't eat them.

Or wear them. Or...well, you probably get the idea.

[trailmonkee]

7. or.....arm wrestle with them?

Would be especially difficult with birds...

[jsmirman]

5. K&R

And I'll let everyone know when the film "Speciesism" hits wide distribution.

[KoKo]

6. Folks who grew up RURAL in the US...and observed...know this from observation...Good Post...

We've lost touch with our Rural Roots...as the decades have moved us out of those areas into cities which aren't conducive to "obervations" of our Natural Environment.

So....I could go with this....having grown up Rural but lived in cities since I was 20 Something.. But, growing up RURAL never leaves your SOUL....if you care about our Environment and our Earth going forward.

[niyad]

8. welcome to DU

I am so glad the scientists are right on top of things--just like with the gaia hypothesis--it only took them HOW long to figure this stuff out?

[trailmonkee]

9. :)

[Grave Grumbler]

10. This declaration doesn't address what is, to me, a very germane question:

Last edited Sat Aug 25, 2012, 03:29 AM - Edit history (1)

Of the animals in question which ones are delicious?

[Brother Buzz]

11. My girl's declaration clearly states bunnies are delicious

[bunnies]

38. Gah!!!

[flvegan]

12. And there it is. n/t

[jsmirman]

13. Here's a germane question:

what did you hope to accomplish with this post?

Did you consider yourself some great wit, sitting down to compose your bon mot, your brief paean to jerkism?

The story in the OP is testament to the idea that despite your arrogance in assuming yourself to be the most important thing on the face of this Earth, there are some real questions humans should face when they decide to eat animals. Certainly there are questions it should be hard not to consider when justifying the absurdly inhumane conditions of torture contraptions like gestation crates that bring you most of your "pork" or say, battery cages, which bring you most of the eggs you consume. These are conditions you or I couldn't handle for half a freaking hour, to say nothing of the entirety of our sensate lives.

So no thank you for your churlish "contribution" to this thread.

It's your right to eat animals if you're comfortable with the above, but it's not your right to act like a baiting jerk.

I'm sure you knew that most people interested in this sort of story wouldn't find your post charming, useful, or germane (which apparently you can't spell).

Please sell your brand of stupid elsewhere.

[flvegan]

15. Oh, my. Applause!!!

No golf clap here. Fucking bravo!

[Grave Grumbler]

16. Here's a relevent answer.

what did you hope to accomplish with this post? I'm sure you knew that most people interested in this sort of story wouldn't find your post charming, useful, or germane (which apparently you can't spell).

I hoped to amuse myself and others.  I can report success in regards to the former, but can only speculate in regards to the latter.

By the way, did you know that the first letter in a sentence is supposed to be capitalized? Pointing out such a trivial error on your part doesn't take away from your argument, of course. Why, it's almost as lame as pointing out a spelling error...

The last thing I would want to do is assault your delicate senses with a misspelled word, so I'll edit out the offending vowel in a moment.

The story in the OP is testament to the idea that despite your arrogance in assuming yourself to be the most important thing on the face of this Earth, there are some real questions humans should face when they decide to eat animals. Certainly there are questions it should be hard not to consider when justifying the absurdly inhumane conditions of torture contraptions like gestation crates that bring you most of your "pork" or say, battery cages, which bring you most of the eggs you consume. These are conditions you or I couldn't handle for half a freaking hour, to say nothing of the entirety of our sensate lives.

I make a joke about eating meat and you infer from this that I consider myself the "most important thing on the face of this Earth".  That's quite a leap.  Please be sure you don't sprain something when you land!  However, in the interest of clarity I freely admit that I feel that humans should be treated differently from non-human animals.   I suppose this makes guilty of speciesism.  I can live with that.

Of course, that means that any number of chickens, cows, pigs, fish, and other animals can't live with that...oh, well!

So no thank you for your churlish "contribution" to this thread.

It's your right to eat animals if you're comfortable with the above, but it's not your right to act like a baiting jerk.

Don't be absurd.  Of course it's my right to act like a baiting jerk (by your standards) if I so choose.  It doesn't violate the 1st Amendment, and it's not a violation (as far as I can tell) of the rules of this board.  If acting like a baiting jerk wasn't allowed, there would be a lot less posts...!

Please sell your brand of stupid elsewhere.

Nah.  I like it here!

[jsmirman]

17. Apparently you don't understand how the internet works:

when you start a sentence in the subject line, you do not capitalize the first words in the body of your post. That concludes a brief lesson from "The Internet for Dummies."

Now for "DU for Dummies." It is absolutely your right to be a baiting jerk speaking generally. It is not your right, however, to be a baiting jerk here on DU. That is called trolling. And that is what your PPR notice will read when the inevitable moment of your MIRTing arrives.

As to your meat eating, hooray for you. It seems you would like a gold sticker. Your "contribution" to the thread was rather thoughtless, however, as any reasoned consideration of the OP would lead to the conclusion that eating animals is something that, well, people might want to think through a little more thoughtfully.

[Grave Grumbler]

19. Are you sure about that colon rule?

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/colons.asp

If two or more sentences follow the colon, capitalize the first word of each sentence following.

Now for "DU for Dummies." It is absolutely your right to be a baiting jerk speaking generally. It is not your right, however, to be a baiting jerk here on DU. That is called trolling. And that is what your PPR notice will read when the inevitable moment of your MIRTing arrives.

If I violate the rules, kick me off.  Until then, I give you a virtual hug & kiss, just because I like you so much!

As to your meat eating, hooray for you. It seems you would like a gold sticker. Your "contribution" to the thread was rather thoughtless, however, as any reasoned consideration of the OP would lead to the conclusion that eating animals is something that, well, people might want to think through a little more thoughtfully.

Ok, I'll consider the matter thoughtfully as I eat some beef jerky.

(think...think...man, this cow tastes good...think...)

Sorry.  Still disagree.  I speculate that around 95% (at least) of the people at DU don't hesitate to eat the flesh of animals as well.  I'm simply honest enough about the issue to admit that it doesn't bother me.

[jsmirman]

20. Sorry, you lose again:

that rule references two "sentences" (I would quibble with calling the first fragment following the colon a sentence, but, whatever) that both refer back to the words preceding the colon.

That wasn't the case and you've got no case. Again.

Mostly, though, you should probably worry about your colon, what with all that meat eating.

Now shoo fly.

[Grave Grumbler]

22. Both sentences do, in fact, refer back to the words preceding the colon.

That being the case, I win. Again.

On that note, I bid you a good night. It's not as if either of us is going to change the other's mind, after all!

[jsmirman]

25. You're missing the distinction:

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/colon-grammar.aspx should help explain it.

Your inability to discern the difference or understand subtleties is, however, unsurprising.

[jsmirman]

32. You're like a Republican:

*you* are the one who brought that "issue" up in the first place.

You must have lost track and decided to put that on the other person, the way they seem to always lose track of things like "who wants to kill Medicare."

Are you that mentally mangled, or just a Republican?

Seriously, give up. No fizzy lifting drinks for you.

Ah - and evidently you've never understood that while you raised this "issue" first, my response was about how internet subject lines and text within the body of a post interact. Again, though, subtleties are lost on you.

[Meg_Griffin_1]

48. If you prep it yourself you learn to respect the animal then eat it!!

I have slaughtered my own food before so unless some one has tortured the animal for what ever reason I have no problem draining the life out of what I am about to eat!

I grew up hunting and have made several gut piles in my life and I am sure a few more before it is done.

[Doremus]

51. How charming for you. n/t

[tama]

59. Respect nt

[RagAss]

33. It boils down to the basics.......

You're new here....don't be nasty.

[Grave Grumbler]

36. I'm not the one being nasty.

Quoting jsmirman:

Did you consider yourself some great wit, sitting down to compose your bon mot, your brief paean to jerkism?

Please sell your brand of stupid elsewhere.

That concludes a brief lesson from "The Internet for Dummies."

Now for "DU for Dummies."

Your inability to discern the difference or understand subtleties is, however, unsurprising.

You're like a Republican

Are you that mentally mangled, or just a Republican?

Perhaps you're aiming at the wrong target in this conversation...

[fleur-de-lisa]

54. You have my sympathy, GG . . .

There are some sanctimonious jackasses on DU, and they don't hesitate to pounce on any comment.

I am a vegetarian, and I firmly believe that the consumption of meat, especially beef, is detrimental to the environment. But I understand that you were making a joke, and I thought it was funny. And I respect your right to free speech, especially on DU. When one of these holier-than-thou jerks pounces on me, I just block communication with them. Fuck em if they can't take a joke!!!

Which reminds me: What does PETA stand for? People Eating Tasty Animals . . . let the nasty responses commence!!!

[tama]

61. LOL eom

[trailmonkee]

56. the comment was expected....

People who find it uncomfortable to be around genuine sincerity and conviction (lots of people who love and care for all species have recommended and/or commented on the article) seem to jump to ill placed humor instead of looking to learn more about what it is that is Making them uneasy. all you can do is wish then well, because they are not ready to positively dialog...

[tama]

35. I wish to express my most sincere gratitude

to all animals, plants and mushrooms that have offered their meat and other tissues for me and my close ones to eat and nourish and live on in the great cycle of life and death. In the same manner I will offer my tissues for other life forms to feed on and reproduce when my spirit leaves this body. <3

[GliderGuider]

41. Mitakuye Oyasin

All living things are wheels within wheels within wheels - each dependent on all, giving and taking according to the needs of the moment.

[tama]

43. Aho nt

[Doremus]

52. A lovely thought.

Are you going to opt for a human battery cage, gestational crate, or scald tank while still alive?

Personally, I think the 6 weeks in knee-high excrement at the feedlot would be da bomb.

Gotta love the great cycle of life, yes indeedy!

[tama]

58. Sorry

quite many English expressions there I can't fully decipher, not a native speaker. But I guess you are trying to guilt-trip me for eating meat occasionally.

I've spent quite a lot of time in knee high dung and higher (from cows and goats and chickens and horses mostly) with a shovel and pitch-work in my hand, often without being able to stand straight. Woman who was responsible for the cows was preserving a living gene bank of local Finnish race of cows, small and smart and mischievous, and fought both city and EU who wanted to hurt them e.g. by piercing their ears for some register. So they gave their milk and meat only for private use, not for commercial market. Goats were living in an ecovillage where they gave their milk for cheese, good humor for mutual entertainment and mischief, and their manure for plants. BTW the knee high pile of dung was created during cold winter and it kept the bull and goats warm and through the winter, was removed in Spring when the snow and ice had smelted and the bull could stay outside. I've collected horse manure from stables and very high piles of shit for community gardens. I've washed my children's shitty bottoms for ages when I was home daddy. I'm not afraid of nor disgusted by shit. As a student of organic permaculture gardening I love it.

I'm mostly vegetarian, but my diet is to eat what is offered without offending the giver of gift. I've also eaten road kills and dumpster dived perfectly good food thrown to garbage bin by supermarkets and government regulations. Pal, it takes lot of more effort to quilt trip me over industrial food production, destruction of fertile soil and treatment of other animals by science labs etc., which I vehemently oppose. With good conscience I can say that I've done my part to change the situation and more than most. I've walked the talk. And to this day and age life has taught me that blame games and guilt tripping are mostly counter productive exercises and forms of self-hurting violent communication.

Live and learn, friend.

[Doremus]

63. No guilt trips intended, just stark reality.

I appreciate your sentiments but there really is no comparison between making the choice to spend one's time shoveling knee-deep animal crap vs being forced to wallow in it in the weeks prior to undergoing violent, often-botched and painful slaughter.

When sentient beings are able to consent to their fate at human hands, then it will be an apt comparison. Not until.

[tama]

64. Preaching to the chorus, see post #30 eom

[Greybnk48]

66. Depends on which ones you ask.

If you ask that grizzly up in Denali, he'd say human animals are delicious, would he not? (No disrespect meant to the family of the backpacker that was eaten. Just trying to make a point).

[burrowowl]

14. K&R!!!!!

[Egalitarian Thug]

18. Is science going to catch up with the rest of us on this subject? Good for them. K&R

"For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons." ― Douglas Adams

[Warren DeMontague]

21. "Conscious Awareness" is, of course, relative.

A lot of people are arguably only barely conscious, most of the time.

[fleur-de-lisa]

55. Oh, man, that was seriously funny!

[K Gardner]

23. Does that translate to animals having "souls"...

Because I think they do. But it seems to be an indisputable "theological" concept, taught in religion courses, that animals don't have souls. My grandson was very disturbed by this concept, when it was taught to him in class. We are both vegan, not because we never enjoyed the taste of meat or dairy, but because of the inhumanity with which animals-for-consumption are treated.

Now, I don't want to rile up any carnivore v. vegetarian/vegan debate.

I just want someone to explain to me why Theologians teach that animals don't have souls and state, rather emphatically, that God meant it to be that way. Because I, for one, and as an animal-rescuer, do not agree.

[Grave Grumbler]

24. I don't think anything has a "soul", human or otherwise.

But then, I have no belief in the supernatural.

[Hydra]

50. I can answer your question easily

Humans are scared of the idea that we aren't unique- God's special creatures.

Well, the science pouring in says that we're animals, not much different than any other. That would have to mean that everything that lives has a soul, or doesn't.

Btw, veggies are alive and aware too, and we eat them alive, boil them, grind them up or dry them out(force them to die of thirst). Eat what you're hungry for- you can't live unless something else dies horribly for you.

[Doremus]

53. Really?

I didn't know veggies are aware.

Where do they keep that brain of theirs anyway?

[Hydra]

57. You could ask the same of Todd Akin

[tama]

60. I'm a community

of life. And each cell of this organic community called 'me' is aware. Not just the filters of brain and ego.

[DonCoquixote]

62. Eat what you're hungry for- you can't live unless something else dies horribly for you.

Which is possibly the best argument against any sort of compassionate God. If a Yahweh or Gaia made a system where we had to kill each other to live, than that enitity is a serial killer, sadist and all around being to be HATED.

[Hydra]

65. Sadly agree

Mealtimes are hard for me after I realized everything we eat had a life and a purpose...but we can't survive without consuming them, so...

[Buzz Clik]

26. At a very low level, one can make the case that plants have awareness.

And ....

[tama]

31. Or at very high.

Depends on your point of view and narrative. In one well known narrative Siddharta Gautama experienced Awaking into higher awareness while sitting under the influence of a very old and wise Boddhi-tree.

[Buzz Clik]

39. Yeah, okay. And the talking tree in the Disney Pocahontas cartoon.

I was speaking of scientific evidence.

[tama]

44. Bose

Same guy as in Bose-Einstein condensate: http://www.areplantsconscious.com/

[Buzz Clik]

46. There you go. That was the kind of study I meant.

It demonstrates response for sure. Consciousness? Not for sure.

And the meaning of such things?

[tama]

47. The meaning?

Meanings are what conscious entities like us give and share in the dance of creation. Also many of us who have explored worlds and meanings and being together with and/or influenced by various entheogens that nature offers, share the experience of having been associated with or connected to on some level of consciousness of the entheogen. There are elements of experience common to all entheogens but also each has their own unique nature and intentional agenda. There have been interesting and enlightening studies of the neurochemical aspects of these communions, but they don't explain the conscious experience of communication and connecting itself. Scientific study of entheogens and what they can teach about consciousness and awareness can go only so far with the methodology of external measurer and observer, and those with experience from communion with entheogens generally agree that most real education starts with participatory study.

[dhill926]

27. The K & R.......

[Uncle Joe]

29. Of course they do, kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, trailmonkee.

P.S. Welcome to D.U. trailmonkee.

[tama]

30. Nice to hear

that also scientists are catching up with, however slowly, what all people who work with other animals with compassion know. Now lets hope this declaration turns into action to stop torture and incarceration of our conscious relatives in science labs. And then in food industry.

[jsmirman]

34. Amen

[WillowTree]

37. Who, exactly, needed "scientists" to tell them this? Anyone who's looked in an animal's eyes knows.

[trailmonkee]

42. its more of a declaration of defience of being knowingly ignorant...

[slackmaster]

40. My cats are treated a lot more humanely than I am

[RebelOne]

45. I knew this. That's why I have been a vegetarian for 15 years. n/t

[gulliver]

49. Just got Jaak Panksepp's new book "The Archaeology of Mind"

Highly recommended.

[trailmonkee]

68. reserved at my local library - thanks for the rec

[Omaha Steve]

67. Beat me to the post

K&R!