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regnaD kciN

(26,045 posts)
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 09:08 PM Mar 2019

This feels like gaslighting...

I know that we're "not supposed to whine," but this experience is really puzzling in a very disturbing way.

Look, if we really had no idea of what had gone on during the campaign, and the report came out indicating no coordination, that's one thing. Or, if we did know what went on during the campaign, but the report spelled out that our interpretations of the facts or the law were incorrect, that's another thing. Or, if we were told that those things did indeed happen during the campaign, but that there wasn't evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, that's one more thing.

But we know some things for certain. They have been spelled out in substantiated news stories for well over a year.

1) Before the Republican convention, members of the Trump campaign staff (including Trump's son) met with representatives of the Russian government, who offered to help them win the election.

2) Accepting any assistance, monetary or in terms of services provided, is illegal, and it is the duty of anyone so propositioned to report it.

3) No such report was made, and Don, Jr., in particular, provided a false account of the meeting.

4) Following the meeting, in which the Russians offered to provide damaging info from the Democratic campaign, Trump suddenly started talking about "Hillary's 30,000 emails" for the first time.

5) Shortly thereafter, he publicly called on Russia to get those e-mails.

6) Thereafter, at the urging of the Trump campaign, the Republican platform was modified to favor Russia in its dispute with the Ukraine.

7) Paul Manafort provided the Russians with confidential voter records.

8) Thereafter, Russia did exactly as Trump had asked them to do, and provided several "dumps" of damaging campaign information stolen from the Democratic Party.

There's no question that all of that happened. Much of it was done out in the open, on video, and all of it has been documented in major, respectable news media. There's never been any reliable reporting that cast doubt on any of those points.

So, knowing what we know now, how on earth can it be said that there was "no evidence of coordination?" What are any of those points except clear evidence of coordination?

It would be one thing if the report concluded that, while there was evidence of coordination, it didn't meet the legal test to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. But what this comes across as is more like "all those things you imagine you saw...you didn't really see them. They were in your imagination, nothing more."

And the word for that is "gaslighting."

52 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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This feels like gaslighting... (Original Post) regnaD kciN Mar 2019 OP
Yeah Barr is gaslighting us. He's biased for trump and is in no way "objective" emulatorloo Mar 2019 #1
K&R, Mueller focused on Russian government not Russians and said there's no collusion based on that uponit7771 Mar 2019 #2
we don't even actually know that to be a fact. Grasswire2 Mar 2019 #21
+1 uponit7771 Mar 2019 #24
Yes I agree dottie66 Mar 2019 #40
Yep uponit7771 Mar 2019 #43
we don't actually know WHAT Mueller wrote, unless and until we see the whole report. niyad Mar 2019 #42
Mueller is a GOP wolf in sheep's clothing cureautismnow Mar 2019 #3
So why was Mueller praised daily until now? at140 Mar 2019 #4
Because some DUers thought he was going to tell them what they wanted to hear. hughee99 Mar 2019 #33
This. The Mouth Mar 2019 #36
But he brought down mobsters treestar Mar 2019 #5
After crediting Mueller for integrity for years, I'm not reversing course until I see the report... regnaD kciN Mar 2019 #7
I'm with ya ... mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #51
He covered for the Saudis and now he's covering for the dotard. cureautismnow Mar 2019 #29
This doesn't fall under the category of "whining" lunatica Mar 2019 #6
It's absolutely gaslighting. GoCubsGo Mar 2019 #8
There was no formal contract ever drawn up. It was only in the preliminary stages. PeeJ52 Mar 2019 #9
that is not the standard of proof required. nt Grasswire2 Mar 2019 #22
Well that's what it read like Barr was saying to me... PeeJ52 Mar 2019 #30
Joy Reid:There should now be bipartisan agreement that there's no reason not to release the report iluvtennis Mar 2019 #10
Re meeting with Russian at trump tower Laura PourMeADrink Mar 2019 #11
if this report "also does not exonerate him" orleans Mar 2019 #12
What they need to show is what evidence demonstrated NO coordination. Kablooie Mar 2019 #13
If the standard is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" they need to demonstrate that doubt, at least. JudyM Mar 2019 #31
Totally. cilla4progress Mar 2019 #14
PTSD from election night 2000. nt Grasswire2 Mar 2019 #23
Both.... LovingA2andMI Mar 2019 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author Cetacea Mar 2019 #28
Complaining about being cheated isn't whining... czarjak Mar 2019 #15
knr Baltimike Mar 2019 #16
How deep are the waters? N3w0rld Mar 2019 #17
Very Deep. LovingA2andMI Mar 2019 #27
I don't think you're wrong. MontanaMama Mar 2019 #50
Meanwhile, wasn't Dump violating emoluments clause yet again this weekend as he hosted diva77 Mar 2019 #18
But The Legal Test DallasNE Mar 2019 #19
It is being scoffed at. Grasswire2 Mar 2019 #25
Trump has escaped justice his entire life. radius777 Mar 2019 #20
It sure is. 58Sunliner Mar 2019 #32
Why didn't Mueller zentrum Mar 2019 #34
Because Mueller is a registered Republican. Check it if you don't believe me. nt. SylviaD Mar 2019 #47
It isn't whining when you've been cheated and speak up nightwing1240 Mar 2019 #35
Absolutely! You bet your ass it's a case of classic gaslighting. Texin Mar 2019 #37
Friends, it is true I hold what some call a "radical" view in how to deal with this nightmare The Liberal Lion Mar 2019 #38
Just reread the quote from Michael Cohen TNNurse Mar 2019 #39
Yep uponit7771 Mar 2019 #41
Two organized crime enterprises, Kremlin and Trump Inc. cp Mar 2019 #44
Question is: Can you prove collusion w Russian GOVERNMENT in court? Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2019 #45
Trump should be dragged out of the White House TODAY in cuffs. SylviaD Mar 2019 #46
The Barr Report itself is a lie! KPN Mar 2019 #48
kick. nt Baltimike Mar 2019 #49
Yep. Sounds like the report verified Russia interfered to help Trump win Freethinker65 Mar 2019 #52

emulatorloo

(44,205 posts)
1. Yeah Barr is gaslighting us. He's biased for trump and is in no way "objective"
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 09:10 PM
Mar 2019

and we aren’t the only ones who know that




NEW: Speaker Pelosi / Leader Schumer joint stmt: "Given Mr. Barr’s public record of bias against the Special Counsel’s inquiry, he is not a neutral observer and is not in a position to make objective determinations about the report."



——————
Additionally it has come out Barr did not consult Mueller when Barr wrote his “summary” letter

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211952222




Thanks for your post.

uponit7771

(90,367 posts)
2. K&R, Mueller focused on Russian government not Russians and said there's no collusion based on that
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 09:11 PM
Mar 2019

... which I thought it was illegal to work with foreigners on a national campaign.

Grasswire2

(13,571 posts)
21. we don't even actually know that to be a fact.
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 01:25 AM
Mar 2019

Barr may have selectively cited "Russian government" from a broader or wider possibility, in order to be able to categorically say NO as he did.

We have to question everything. Parse every word.

cureautismnow

(1,677 posts)
3. Mueller is a GOP wolf in sheep's clothing
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 09:26 PM
Mar 2019

Google his past, (Pan Am, BCCI, 9/11 Saudis, Patriot Act, Torture, etc.) and you will see that we never had a chance to get to the bottom of Drumpf's criminality. Republicans protect their own over American interests. Mueller is just Drumpf's latest "fixer."

"Mueller was even OK with the CIA conducting torture programs after his own agents warned against participation. Agents were simply instructed not to document such torture, and any “war crimes files” were made to disappear. Not only did “collect it all” surveillance and torture programs continue, but Mueller’s (and then Comey’s) FBI later worked to prosecute NSA and CIA whistleblowers who revealed these illegalities."

"Mueller was chosen as Special Counsel not because he has integrity but because he will do what the powerful want him to do. He didn’t speak the truth about a war he knew to be unjustified. He didn’t speak out against torture. He didn’t speak out against unconstitutional surveillance. And he didn’t tell the truth about 9/11. He is just their man."

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/conflicts-of-interest-and-ethics-robert-mueller-and_us_5936a148e4b033940169cdc8

at140

(6,110 posts)
4. So why was Mueller praised daily until now?
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 09:44 PM
Mar 2019

Why everybody thought Mueller was the savior to save us from Trump?

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
33. Because some DUers thought he was going to tell them what they wanted to hear.
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 10:58 AM
Mar 2019

And now that he hasn’t, it must be because he was corrupt, because it can’t possibly be because he couldn’t find the proof.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
5. But he brought down mobsters
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 09:50 PM
Mar 2019

I think there were simply unrealistic expectations. Proof is different from our hopes. The Russians are known for intimidating witnesses and destroying evidence. Dotard is an obstructed of justice. Mueller has integrity. The evidence and witnesses can’t always be pinned down.

regnaD kciN

(26,045 posts)
7. After crediting Mueller for integrity for years, I'm not reversing course until I see the report...
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 10:11 PM
Mar 2019

I want to see his rationale for his decisions, along with the "findings of fact" in the report. If said findings of fact indicate clear evidence suggestive of conspiracy, but not enough to meet the "reasonable doubt" standard, I'll disagree with his decisions, but respect his efforts. To join in any "Republican tool" charges, I'd have to see evidence in the report that he simply refused to examine evidence out there in plain sight, or deliberately misinterpreted it.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
51. I'm with ya ...
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 11:31 PM
Mar 2019

A real mole wouldn't have gone after Manafort, Stone, and Cohen like he did ... bottom-line.

cureautismnow

(1,677 posts)
29. He covered for the Saudis and now he's covering for the dotard.
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 05:59 AM
Mar 2019

He even thought torture was okay. No integrity there.

"New York-based lawyer Jim Kreindler, representing the families of the Sept. 11 victims, said in an interview with me that Mueller and his successor, James Comey, engaged in a systematic cover-up of evidence that the Saudi government aided the terrorists who committed the Sept. 11 attacks.

Kreindler and the victims’ families believe there are clear connections between the Saudi government and Sept. 11 hijackers Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar. Both men met with the employees of Saudi Arabia’s Ministry of Islamic Affairs and received support from Saudi diplomat Fahad al-Thumairy, according to a 28-page report on the Saudi links to the Sept. 11 attacks."

"It’s not just Kreindler pointing the finger at Mueller; [Bob] Graham stated that Mueller personally intervened to cut off further inquiry regarding Saudi assistance to the hijackers in California. In an interview with Harper’s from October 2017, Graham stated that Mueller made a series of objections to having terrorist specialist and former FBI lawyer Michael Jacobson visit San Diego to see if there was a possible Saudi connection to the hijackers. When Jacobson discovered that the hijackers were close to an FBI informant named Abdussattar Shaikh, he demanded to speak to him — but Mueller refused and moved Shaikh to an undisclosed location “for his safety.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/robert-mueller-was-the-biggest-obstacle-for-sept-11-families-who-wanted-to-sue-saudi-arabia

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
6. This doesn't fall under the category of "whining"
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 10:06 PM
Mar 2019

This is actually old fashioned DU analytical thinking.

My whining thread was about the sky is falling Chicken Little explosion of total despair.

This thread? I recommend and kick!

 

PeeJ52

(1,588 posts)
9. There was no formal contract ever drawn up. It was only in the preliminary stages.
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 10:33 PM
Mar 2019

That's what Barr is saying. If they had found a contract with signatures and a cost associated with the materials and labor then they could have proven the case beyond a shadow of a doubt. Since they never found the written contract, they couldn't prove it.

 

PeeJ52

(1,588 posts)
30. Well that's what it read like Barr was saying to me...
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 10:30 AM
Mar 2019

Looked like he was expecting a written contract with the "government" of Russia.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
11. Re meeting with Russian at trump tower
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 10:39 PM
Mar 2019

True of course that there was a connection between that meeting and Russian election interference. But maybe they couldn't connect the dots between the meeting and the Russian involvement? Happened but no linking physical evidence?

orleans

(34,082 posts)
12. if this report "also does not exonerate him"
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 10:41 PM
Mar 2019

then why is the investigation over?

either exonerate the motherf*cker or hand over enough evidence so he can be charged!

i'm pissed.


july 27 2016
"RUSSIA, IF YOU'RE LISTENING, I HOPE YOU'RE ABLE TO FIND THE 30,000 EMAILS THAT ARE MISSING. I THINK YOU WILL PROBABLY BE REWARDED MIGHTEDLY BY OUR PRESS."



and comey firing?
"Trump says he considered 'this Russia thing' before firing FBI Director Comey"
https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/12/politics/trump-comey-russia-thing/index.html

and while we're on the subject:
"WILLIAM BARR’S SON-IN-LAW JUST LANDED A JOB ADVISING TRUMP ON “LEGAL ISSUES” -feb 14, 2019
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/02/william-barr-son-in-law-white-house?verso=true

Kablooie

(18,641 posts)
13. What they need to show is what evidence demonstrated NO coordination.
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 10:53 PM
Mar 2019

They should be forced to explain how after all of this apparently illegal behavior led them to a "no conspiring" verdict.
What information do they have that made each of these instances of no consequence?

Something more that just taking their word for it must be demanded!

JudyM

(29,293 posts)
31. If the standard is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" they need to demonstrate that doubt, at least.
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 10:54 AM
Mar 2019

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
26. Both....
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 02:43 AM
Mar 2019

And the results from either of these night never changed, until WE changed it. #FoodForThought

Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #23)

N3w0rld

(5 posts)
17. How deep are the waters?
Sun Mar 24, 2019, 11:49 PM
Mar 2019

I think it's not just Trump and Russia. I think the RNC is directly involved, some Republicans, the NRA, some of the Christian Right, and the Far Right News. I seriously hope I am wrong.

diva77

(7,664 posts)
18. Meanwhile, wasn't Dump violating emoluments clause yet again this weekend as he hosted
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 12:04 AM
Mar 2019

Caribbean leaders at mar-0-lago??


DallasNE

(7,403 posts)
19. But The Legal Test
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 12:15 AM
Mar 2019

Is established by case law. There is no attempt to use case law to establish the opinion of Barr making this nothing more than personal opinion written by a lawyer. It is certainly not lawyerly and I presume tomorrow it will be scoffed at, as it should b e.

Grasswire2

(13,571 posts)
25. It is being scoffed at.
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 02:22 AM
Mar 2019

But it served its purpose to shape the "REVEAL" this weekend and set the narrative.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
20. Trump has escaped justice his entire life.
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 12:27 AM
Mar 2019

It's clear, based on everything in front of our faces, that Trump is a Putin puppet who was aided by Russia in the hijacking of the 2016 election.

Mueller, based upon the rules/process, couldn't find enough evidence to prove collusion ... doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Mueller/Rosenstein/Barr also are Repubs whose worldview is likely similar to that judge who let off "blameless" Manafort easy.

White justice system, while a black kid who steals a bike or something often gets tossed in prison for years - that is the larger issue.

Texin

(2,599 posts)
37. Absolutely! You bet your ass it's a case of classic gaslighting.
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 12:02 PM
Mar 2019

I'll not let anyone presume to tell me what I have seen and heard for the last three years on, nor that the things to be seen and heard were not spoken and done in front of my very eyes. I. Am. Not. Crazy. I know what I've seen and nobody can tell me that what I've seen and heard were figments of my imagination.

The Liberal Lion

(1,414 posts)
38. Friends, it is true I hold what some call a "radical" view in how to deal with this nightmare
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 12:05 PM
Mar 2019

we are living through. That being said we know in our heart of hearts, even without that report, that something stinks from high heaven with the election of trump. Clinton may not have been the most perfect or even the most desirable candidate for President, but you know what, she didn't lose. We know that as Americans. We know no matter how loud and boisterous the right may act, America did not elect that orange fuck. We saw right before our own eyes before the election trump begging for Russian help, and we saw after the election trump bow before putin in thanks for that help. Our country may have a lot of fucked up individuals in it who are so screwed in the head that they would give their vote to trump, but there are not enough of them to have legitimately elected him to our highest office. We know this and we don't need a report to tell us this. We are being bamaboozled, or gaslit as the OP put it. Now the question becomes: how much faith do you or can you put into this system any longer that justice can be done?

As for me, I have zero

TNNurse

(6,929 posts)
39. Just reread the quote from Michael Cohen
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 12:24 PM
Mar 2019

"If you protect Mr. Trump you will end up like me". We need that to happen to Barr, Graham, Sarah Sanders, and so many more. And it needs to happen sooner than later.

cp

(6,670 posts)
44. Two organized crime enterprises, Kremlin and Trump Inc.
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 12:51 PM
Mar 2019

Putin and Trumpski have lifetimes of lying, talking in code, and covering their tracks. They are very, very good at this.
However, they are human beings and there are screw-ups along the way.
The goofs will be revealed and the mafia bosses will be caught. It will probably be something seemingly small at first, and it will definitely be from the money trail.

I am positive our don will face justice, and it will be delicious. (Just hope it's in my lifetime.)

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,047 posts)
45. Question is: Can you prove collusion w Russian GOVERNMENT in court?
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 01:54 PM
Mar 2019

It seems that it is provable that somebody (Manafort for example) colluded with Russian oligarch Kilimnik via polling data, etc. But proving that tRump or his campaign colluded with the Russian government is more difficult.

SylviaD

(721 posts)
46. Trump should be dragged out of the White House TODAY in cuffs.
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 04:04 PM
Mar 2019

And Republican Barr and Republican Mueller with him.

I am DONE with Republicans, in ANY capacity.

EDIT: Many told me Mueller was a "prinicpled Republican". NO SUCH THING.

He covered for Trump, PLAIN AND SIMPLE

KPN

(15,665 posts)
48. The Barr Report itself is a lie!
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 06:55 PM
Mar 2019

Barr even cloaked his Report with a presence of Rosenstein and Mueller, as if they shared responsibility for the conclusion(s) this lending himself credibility. Now we know why Rosenstein stayed on “a little bit longer” and Mueller “will be participating in the summary report.” Barr’s borrowing their good names to mislead the majority of the Americanpublic — the minority don’t care what tRump has done as long as he is promoting their pernicious goals.

Freethinker65

(10,068 posts)
52. Yep. Sounds like the report verified Russia interfered to help Trump win
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 11:59 PM
Mar 2019

Perhaps Mueller is saying there was not enough evidence the campaign or Trump knew for sure what was really being done (I would say doing nothing to prevent it is damaging if not criminal). Was there a possibility Trump was an unwitting pawn? Or Trump has been pretty good at "keeping his hands clean" so to speak. Cohen has "fixed" things for years, NDAs have been signed, Trump gets away with not paying contractors, etc.

As for obstruction, Trump did obstruct...but Mueller wanted the legislature to decide if the obstruction was within the power of the Presidency. When should a President not be able to fire someone? When should a President not be able to protect himself?

Did Trump lie under oath (in writing)? I suppose there can be a case that Trump honestly doesn't have any understanding of what truth is? Truth for Trump is fluid...it appears to be whatever he thinks will be most advantageous for himself. He constantly contradicts himself and doesn't think there is anything wrong. Dementia or just narcissism in that he can never be wrong?

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