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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThis feels like gaslighting...
I know that we're "not supposed to whine," but this experience is really puzzling in a very disturbing way.
Look, if we really had no idea of what had gone on during the campaign, and the report came out indicating no coordination, that's one thing. Or, if we did know what went on during the campaign, but the report spelled out that our interpretations of the facts or the law were incorrect, that's another thing. Or, if we were told that those things did indeed happen during the campaign, but that there wasn't evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, that's one more thing.
But we know some things for certain. They have been spelled out in substantiated news stories for well over a year.
1) Before the Republican convention, members of the Trump campaign staff (including Trump's son) met with representatives of the Russian government, who offered to help them win the election.
2) Accepting any assistance, monetary or in terms of services provided, is illegal, and it is the duty of anyone so propositioned to report it.
3) No such report was made, and Don, Jr., in particular, provided a false account of the meeting.
4) Following the meeting, in which the Russians offered to provide damaging info from the Democratic campaign, Trump suddenly started talking about "Hillary's 30,000 emails" for the first time.
5) Shortly thereafter, he publicly called on Russia to get those e-mails.
6) Thereafter, at the urging of the Trump campaign, the Republican platform was modified to favor Russia in its dispute with the Ukraine.
7) Paul Manafort provided the Russians with confidential voter records.
8) Thereafter, Russia did exactly as Trump had asked them to do, and provided several "dumps" of damaging campaign information stolen from the Democratic Party.
There's no question that all of that happened. Much of it was done out in the open, on video, and all of it has been documented in major, respectable news media. There's never been any reliable reporting that cast doubt on any of those points.
So, knowing what we know now, how on earth can it be said that there was "no evidence of coordination?" What are any of those points except clear evidence of coordination?
It would be one thing if the report concluded that, while there was evidence of coordination, it didn't meet the legal test to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. But what this comes across as is more like "all those things you imagine you saw...you didn't really see them. They were in your imagination, nothing more."
And the word for that is "gaslighting."
emulatorloo
(44,205 posts)and we arent the only ones who know that
Link to tweet
Additionally it has come out Barr did not consult Mueller when Barr wrote his summary letter
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211952222
Link to tweet
Thanks for your post.
uponit7771
(90,367 posts)... which I thought it was illegal to work with foreigners on a national campaign.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)Barr may have selectively cited "Russian government" from a broader or wider possibility, in order to be able to categorically say NO as he did.
We have to question everything. Parse every word.
uponit7771
(90,367 posts)dottie66
(59 posts)Also, did the report feel Trump was a "useful idiot" as the Russian call them?
uponit7771
(90,367 posts)niyad
(113,602 posts)cureautismnow
(1,677 posts)Google his past, (Pan Am, BCCI, 9/11 Saudis, Patriot Act, Torture, etc.) and you will see that we never had a chance to get to the bottom of Drumpf's criminality. Republicans protect their own over American interests. Mueller is just Drumpf's latest "fixer."
"Mueller was even OK with the CIA conducting torture programs after his own agents warned against participation. Agents were simply instructed not to document such torture, and any war crimes files were made to disappear. Not only did collect it all surveillance and torture programs continue, but Muellers (and then Comeys) FBI later worked to prosecute NSA and CIA whistleblowers who revealed these illegalities."
"Mueller was chosen as Special Counsel not because he has integrity but because he will do what the powerful want him to do. He didnt speak the truth about a war he knew to be unjustified. He didnt speak out against torture. He didnt speak out against unconstitutional surveillance. And he didnt tell the truth about 9/11. He is just their man."
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/conflicts-of-interest-and-ethics-robert-mueller-and_us_5936a148e4b033940169cdc8
at140
(6,110 posts)Why everybody thought Mueller was the savior to save us from Trump?
hughee99
(16,113 posts)And now that he hasnt, it must be because he was corrupt, because it cant possibly be because he couldnt find the proof.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I think there were simply unrealistic expectations. Proof is different from our hopes. The Russians are known for intimidating witnesses and destroying evidence. Dotard is an obstructed of justice. Mueller has integrity. The evidence and witnesses cant always be pinned down.
regnaD kciN
(26,045 posts)I want to see his rationale for his decisions, along with the "findings of fact" in the report. If said findings of fact indicate clear evidence suggestive of conspiracy, but not enough to meet the "reasonable doubt" standard, I'll disagree with his decisions, but respect his efforts. To join in any "Republican tool" charges, I'd have to see evidence in the report that he simply refused to examine evidence out there in plain sight, or deliberately misinterpreted it.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)A real mole wouldn't have gone after Manafort, Stone, and Cohen like he did ... bottom-line.
cureautismnow
(1,677 posts)He even thought torture was okay. No integrity there.
"New York-based lawyer Jim Kreindler, representing the families of the Sept. 11 victims, said in an interview with me that Mueller and his successor, James Comey, engaged in a systematic cover-up of evidence that the Saudi government aided the terrorists who committed the Sept. 11 attacks.
Kreindler and the victims families believe there are clear connections between the Saudi government and Sept. 11 hijackers Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar. Both men met with the employees of Saudi Arabias Ministry of Islamic Affairs and received support from Saudi diplomat Fahad al-Thumairy, according to a 28-page report on the Saudi links to the Sept. 11 attacks."
"Its not just Kreindler pointing the finger at Mueller; [Bob] Graham stated that Mueller personally intervened to cut off further inquiry regarding Saudi assistance to the hijackers in California. In an interview with Harpers from October 2017, Graham stated that Mueller made a series of objections to having terrorist specialist and former FBI lawyer Michael Jacobson visit San Diego to see if there was a possible Saudi connection to the hijackers. When Jacobson discovered that the hijackers were close to an FBI informant named Abdussattar Shaikh, he demanded to speak to him but Mueller refused and moved Shaikh to an undisclosed location for his safety.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/robert-mueller-was-the-biggest-obstacle-for-sept-11-families-who-wanted-to-sue-saudi-arabia
lunatica
(53,410 posts)This is actually old fashioned DU analytical thinking.
My whining thread was about the sky is falling Chicken Little explosion of total despair.
This thread? I recommend and kick!
GoCubsGo
(32,097 posts)They've been doing it all along.
PeeJ52
(1,588 posts)That's what Barr is saying. If they had found a contract with signatures and a cost associated with the materials and labor then they could have proven the case beyond a shadow of a doubt. Since they never found the written contract, they couldn't prove it.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)PeeJ52
(1,588 posts)Looked like he was expecting a written contract with the "government" of Russia.
iluvtennis
(19,882 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)True of course that there was a connection between that meeting and Russian election interference. But maybe they couldn't connect the dots between the meeting and the Russian involvement? Happened but no linking physical evidence?
orleans
(34,082 posts)then why is the investigation over?
either exonerate the motherf*cker or hand over enough evidence so he can be charged!
i'm pissed.
july 27 2016
"RUSSIA, IF YOU'RE LISTENING, I HOPE YOU'RE ABLE TO FIND THE 30,000 EMAILS THAT ARE MISSING. I THINK YOU WILL PROBABLY BE REWARDED MIGHTEDLY BY OUR PRESS."
and comey firing?
"Trump says he considered 'this Russia thing' before firing FBI Director Comey"
https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/12/politics/trump-comey-russia-thing/index.html
and while we're on the subject:
"WILLIAM BARRS SON-IN-LAW JUST LANDED A JOB ADVISING TRUMP ON LEGAL ISSUES -feb 14, 2019
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/02/william-barr-son-in-law-white-house?verso=true
Kablooie
(18,641 posts)They should be forced to explain how after all of this apparently illegal behavior led them to a "no conspiring" verdict.
What information do they have that made each of these instances of no consequence?
Something more that just taking their word for it must be demanded!
JudyM
(29,293 posts)cilla4progress
(24,782 posts)PTSD from election night 2016.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)And the results from either of these night never changed, until WE changed it. #FoodForThought
Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #23)
Cetacea This message was self-deleted by its author.
czarjak
(11,299 posts)Baltimike
(4,148 posts)N3w0rld
(5 posts)I think it's not just Trump and Russia. I think the RNC is directly involved, some Republicans, the NRA, some of the Christian Right, and the Far Right News. I seriously hope I am wrong.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Deep sea territory..... Welcome to DU.
MontanaMama
(23,351 posts)Welcome aboard!
diva77
(7,664 posts)Caribbean leaders at mar-0-lago??
DallasNE
(7,403 posts)Is established by case law. There is no attempt to use case law to establish the opinion of Barr making this nothing more than personal opinion written by a lawyer. It is certainly not lawyerly and I presume tomorrow it will be scoffed at, as it should b e.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)But it served its purpose to shape the "REVEAL" this weekend and set the narrative.
radius777
(3,635 posts)It's clear, based on everything in front of our faces, that Trump is a Putin puppet who was aided by Russia in the hijacking of the 2016 election.
Mueller, based upon the rules/process, couldn't find enough evidence to prove collusion ... doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Mueller/Rosenstein/Barr also are Repubs whose worldview is likely similar to that judge who let off "blameless" Manafort easy.
White justice system, while a black kid who steals a bike or something often gets tossed in prison for years - that is the larger issue.
58Sunliner
(4,414 posts)zentrum
(9,865 posts)...ever interview Con Trump Jr.?
Jr. met with Russians. Why no interview?
SylviaD
(721 posts)nightwing1240
(1,996 posts)Excellent post!
Texin
(2,599 posts)I'll not let anyone presume to tell me what I have seen and heard for the last three years on, nor that the things to be seen and heard were not spoken and done in front of my very eyes. I. Am. Not. Crazy. I know what I've seen and nobody can tell me that what I've seen and heard were figments of my imagination.
The Liberal Lion
(1,414 posts)we are living through. That being said we know in our heart of hearts, even without that report, that something stinks from high heaven with the election of trump. Clinton may not have been the most perfect or even the most desirable candidate for President, but you know what, she didn't lose. We know that as Americans. We know no matter how loud and boisterous the right may act, America did not elect that orange fuck. We saw right before our own eyes before the election trump begging for Russian help, and we saw after the election trump bow before putin in thanks for that help. Our country may have a lot of fucked up individuals in it who are so screwed in the head that they would give their vote to trump, but there are not enough of them to have legitimately elected him to our highest office. We know this and we don't need a report to tell us this. We are being bamaboozled, or gaslit as the OP put it. Now the question becomes: how much faith do you or can you put into this system any longer that justice can be done?
As for me, I have zero
TNNurse
(6,929 posts)"If you protect Mr. Trump you will end up like me". We need that to happen to Barr, Graham, Sarah Sanders, and so many more. And it needs to happen sooner than later.
cp
(6,670 posts)Putin and Trumpski have lifetimes of lying, talking in code, and covering their tracks. They are very, very good at this.
However, they are human beings and there are screw-ups along the way.
The goofs will be revealed and the mafia bosses will be caught. It will probably be something seemingly small at first, and it will definitely be from the money trail.
I am positive our don will face justice, and it will be delicious. (Just hope it's in my lifetime.)
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,047 posts)It seems that it is provable that somebody (Manafort for example) colluded with Russian oligarch Kilimnik via polling data, etc. But proving that tRump or his campaign colluded with the Russian government is more difficult.
SylviaD
(721 posts)And Republican Barr and Republican Mueller with him.
I am DONE with Republicans, in ANY capacity.
EDIT: Many told me Mueller was a "prinicpled Republican". NO SUCH THING.
He covered for Trump, PLAIN AND SIMPLE
KPN
(15,665 posts)Barr even cloaked his Report with a presence of Rosenstein and Mueller, as if they shared responsibility for the conclusion(s) this lending himself credibility. Now we know why Rosenstein stayed on a little bit longer and Mueller will be participating in the summary report. Barrs borrowing their good names to mislead the majority of the Americanpublic the minority dont care what tRump has done as long as he is promoting their pernicious goals.
Baltimike
(4,148 posts)Freethinker65
(10,068 posts)Perhaps Mueller is saying there was not enough evidence the campaign or Trump knew for sure what was really being done (I would say doing nothing to prevent it is damaging if not criminal). Was there a possibility Trump was an unwitting pawn? Or Trump has been pretty good at "keeping his hands clean" so to speak. Cohen has "fixed" things for years, NDAs have been signed, Trump gets away with not paying contractors, etc.
As for obstruction, Trump did obstruct...but Mueller wanted the legislature to decide if the obstruction was within the power of the Presidency. When should a President not be able to fire someone? When should a President not be able to protect himself?
Did Trump lie under oath (in writing)? I suppose there can be a case that Trump honestly doesn't have any understanding of what truth is? Truth for Trump is fluid...it appears to be whatever he thinks will be most advantageous for himself. He constantly contradicts himself and doesn't think there is anything wrong. Dementia or just narcissism in that he can never be wrong?