General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf you're shocked by Mueller's report, you aren't familiar with crime and the legal system
People get away with crime EVERY DAY in the United States. Every. Day.
Often, the more elaborate or lucrative the crime then the more likely they are to do so. Organized criminal networks do things all the time that they're never prosecuted for because they know how to intimidate, obscure and insulate. It's also obvious from his behavior and language that Donald Trump admires and seeks to emulate many of those same figures.
This nation has never been completely just, fair or innocent but it's taken a huge step backward now. The way this will empower and amp up the worst aspects of the United States is going to be disastrous.
uponit7771
(90,353 posts)... make easy decisions.
misanthrope
(7,421 posts)Not hunches or suspicions but evidence. There was so much obfuscation, the waters were too muddy.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)...because Trump was obstructing and obfuscating, then we're boned here.
But indication is there that there wasn't enough evidence.
uponit7771
(90,353 posts)misanthrope
(7,421 posts)I've seen a public official get away with actual murder -- literal, not figurative -- when they were surrounded by a cloud of circumstantial evidence but nothing direct enough. That included statements by the deceased that weren't allowed in court because she wasn't available for cross examination. Everyone "knew" the guy was guilty but it wouldn't stand up in court.
uponit7771
(90,353 posts)uponit7771
(90,353 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)misanthrope
(7,421 posts)If you're a U.S. Senator's son, then even a block of hash might not be enough to have you see jail time. I've seen that one happen, too.
SuprstitionAintthWay
(386 posts)in the U.S. It's because were a free society, in which people have civil rights and liberties. And some other, worse reasons as well. But mostly it's because there are real limits to police powers here. We have strict rules of evidence, and an extremely high standard of proof for criminal conviction: "beyond a reasonable doubt."
Law enforcement in America fails at a prodigious rate, but some sort of high failure rate is pretty much baked into our system. If you want the highest rates of crimes solved and crimimals charged you have to move to an authoritarian nation, of which there are plenty to choose from (but you'll be trading one problem for a whole lot of others).
Even for the crime we put the most law enforcement focus on, murder, in America somebody gets arrested only about half the time. Our national murder clearance rate was 59% in 2016 and 61% in 2017... among the lowest in the world. "Clearance" meaning the murderer was arrested, or else identified but couldn't be arrested. Of the latter group, some are already dead themselves, but for others, the police depts' "exceptional clearances," the murderer is known, but the evidence is insufficient for arrest. (Also, some depts. have been known to inflate their clearance rates, "The Wire"- style, by allowing a few unsolved cases to be mis-attributed to somebody already dead or incarcerated. Rare, but it happens.) So, all told, if you're murdered in America, it's about a 50-50 proposition that law enforcement is going to charge somebody for it.
Again, that's for our most aggressively enforced crime.
Now consider burglary or robbery. Arrest rates are much worse. Consider rape. The majority are acquaintance, date, or domestic abuse rapes; the great majority of all rapes aren't even reported. The % of rapes for which someone gets charged is tiny.
How about financial crimes? For well-off bad guys, law enforcement is more abysmal still. How many insider trading financial crimes do we think actually occur for every one in which someone gets indicted? A 5000-to-1 ratio wouldn't surprise me.
In short, the vast majority of crimes committed in America go unpunished. We're just a very goddamned free country, and in practical terms that extends to freedom from arrest for by far the majority of the crimes that Americans commit.
Mueller's team's inability to prove conspiracy between Trump & Co. and Putin's govt should be no surprise at all, to anyone. I remain convinced that considerable communication did go on, through intermediaries if nothing else, between the Kremlin and Trump's astonishingly incompetent clown show of a campaign. So it's disappointing no one's going to jail, or getting evicted from the White House, for it. But that result is completely in keeping with our nation's track record in criminal justice.
misanthrope
(7,421 posts)**
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)So many kingpins led lives of crime with nary a conviction or convictions for minor offenses.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)No one here has read Mueller's report, so can we please stop posting as if we have?
SuprstitionAintthWay
(386 posts)you think Barr out-and-out bald-faced lied when he wrote that Mueller reported he has no more indictments forthcoming, and there are no sealed indictments either.
greyl
(22,990 posts)SuprstitionAintthWay
(386 posts)Okay, let me restate misanthrope's point in a way maybe more acceptable to those scouring the forum to police Mueller v Barr nomenclature.
WHEN YOU DO GET TO READ Mueller's report, and it says no more indictments are coming from his investigation and there are no sealed indictments, anyone shocked THEN, by that, doesn't understand well the American criminal justice system. Because our system lets criminals get away with their crimes much, much more often than it successfully holds them accountable. It's designed so as to err, pretty heavily, on the side of the perp rather than the state. Trump slithering free of conspiracy-or-coordination prosecution, even if he's guilty (which I continue to believe he is) is very much the norm rather than the exception in the American criminal justice system.
greyl
(22,990 posts)pnwmom
(108,990 posts)think it says things it doesn't.
For instance, it says very little about the multiple cases that got farmed out to other Federal prosecutors around the country, including whether there were any sealed indictments there, or more indictments coming. (Recent court filings in the Flynn, Gates, and Manafort contained redacted paragraphs and pages that the prosecutors said contained information about still secret, ongoing investigations. So they are still happening, somewhere.)
It didn't say anything about any "links" Mueller was tasked to investigation except for those related to their social media meddling and election hacking. But we know Rosenstein had a much broader mandate than just those areas, because the Rosenstein letter was released when Mueller was appointed.
Barr's letter also doesn't say anything about Mueller investigating human "links" between the Trump campaign and the Russian government, though we know there were quite a few, including Konstantin Kilimnik, for example. And we know Rosenstein's letter authorized him to look into those links.
So I don't think Barr necessarily made bald faced lies -- just clever, lawyerly statements designed to deceive anyone who didn't read his letter very carefully, along with the original Rosenstein letter and recent court documents.
SuprstitionAintthWay
(386 posts)...that Don McGrath said got rolled into it: The question of, is Trump compromised by the Kremlin in ANY way?
That's a whole separate question from conspiracy over the election. I want to know what Mueller's conclusions are on THAT one.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)greyl
(22,990 posts)while being unaware of what a scumbag Donald Trump is, if "you're shocked by Mueller's report".
#ReleaseTheFullReportNOW
https://twitter.com/hashtag/releasethefullreportnow?vertical=default
misanthrope
(7,421 posts)"shocked by Mueller's findings and recommendations as relayed."
triron
(22,011 posts)misanthrope
(7,421 posts)but Barr utterly ignored that and chose to write an entirely fictitious summary?