A down-to-earth look at McCain and "heroism"

[SHRED]

A friend and former liberal radio talk show host Stacey Taylor's take. This is his recent Facebook post.

I understand the concept that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and that any resistance to and criticism of our pouty Boy-President and the Trump crime family is welcome.
But, please, enough of the John-McCain-the-war-hero crap.
While I can admire his resiliency during his 5 year captivity, I do not lose sight of what McCain's heroism really consisted of.
McCain was part of the 3 year bombing campaign known as Operation Rolling Thunder that was designed to break the will of the people of North Vietnam and to destroy its infrastructure. McCain flew several dozen missions during Operation Rolling Thunder before he was shot down over Hanoi.
The whole fucking mess was, of course, ushered in by a giant lie: the phony Gulf of Tonkin incident that was used to justify the decimation of a 3rd world country by a super-power.
The C.I.A. estimates that 48,000 North Vietnamese civilians were killed during Operation Rolling Thunder.
And in the end, the whole stupid ill-conceived war came to nothing but death, destruction and defeat.
I'm sure that McCain at the time thought he was doing his "duty" to murder civilians from the sky, but today to hear self-described liberals and progressives swoon over his "heroism" is getting more than a little sickening.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2623993820960776&id=100000505508937

[LakeArenal]

1. McCain's war record was then....

What I remember is Jon Stewart going from a huge fan of McCain to wondering on the Daily Show how he became such a dick.

That except for one vote, that at the time of his huge illness would have made him a total ass to vote yes, John McCain was a complete ass.

I think Trump is crude and attacks those who can’t respond. That’s his MO.

Trump’s McCain Dump is a break from blaming Obama.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

2. This is so stupid. McCain didn't order the war in Vietnam, he fought in it.

And he did so bravely in that context, regardless of what brought him to that point, and doesn't deserve to be attacked for it, whether it be by the Madman in the Oval Office or whoever the hell Stacey Taylor is.

[Power 2 the People]

22. +1

McCain was a political coward but was heroic for refusing to leave the Hanoi Hilton before other longer suffering comrades were released. To assume he,as a pilot, knew the Viet Nam War was a sham is ridiculous.

[beachbum bob]

3. war is war and people who serve in the military know that vs others who have never served,

I doubt Stacey Taylor served in the military nor understands what it means to be responsible for the life of the soldier sitting in the foxhole next to you.

McCain's heroism was to survive 5 years of the worse nightmare any person could ever go thru and remain vigilant


Gulf of Tonkin has ZERO bearing on this at all, period.

[GusBob]

4. I'm not certain how important Stacey Taylor is

I am uncertain as to how his opinion is important.

A more accurate mportant view would be that of the Vietnamese people.

I reckon they have put the Wars behind them. Whether out of respect for the dead or the living, who knows. It’s over, not much use in fighting it all over

I do recall a number of his former guards and enemies honoring JM on news of his death. Perhaps their opinion is more valid than some Facebook post by a talk radio host

[Kaleva]

9. +1

[MineralMan]

5. McCain had no role in planning any of it.

His heroism began once he was captured. This is a misunderstanding of roles in the military. He refused to be treated differently from other prisoners. He did not start the Vietnam War, nor did he plan his missions. I'm no McCain fan, and I protested that war while in uniform, but dissing McCain on those grounds is an error of judgment.

[PJMcK]

6. McCain's war record is secure

The man was heroic in captivity. He stood by his fellow POWs and refused an early release.

Fine. Thank you for your military service, sir.

Can we now talk about his record as a legislator? In that context, the man was a dick. Period.

There weren't very many votes that he cast or positions he took that anyone on this board would support.

And let's never forget his "humorous" variation of a pop song, "Bomb, bomb, bomb, Bomb, bomb Iran."

McCain was never the maverick he was portrayed as. He was a staunch Republican who often took hard right positions. And he can never be forgiven for elevating Sarah Palin to the national stage.

May he rest in peace but let's be real about his actual life's record.

[Javaman]

7. In 1967 when McCain was shot down, there still was a very divided nation on the VN War...

many service members and still a huge portion of the general public believed in it, regardless of the lies that got us into it.

I fault no one who fights and the things they are told to do.

Sometimes it's a Hobson's choice.

I do fault those that prosecute the war.

the long list of presidents involved in Viet Nam, from Truman to nixon all bear responsibility. And we can also go as far back as Wilson.

we are a warrior nation, regardless of how we try to define ourselves otherwise.

there are very very few years in our nations history where we weren't at war of one kind or another.

sadly, THAT is who we are.

and as a result, those who serve are the pawns of the war wagers.


American Involvement in Wars from Colonial Times to the Present

https://www.thoughtco.com/american-involvement-wars-colonial-times-present-4059761

List of wars involving the United States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States

[gratuitous]

11. Sometimes it is a Hobson's choice

But our nation doesn't honor those who refuse to fight unjust wars. As President Kennedy once observed: "War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today." I've not seen that day draw any nearer in the last 50 years.

[Javaman]

13. like I said, we are a warrior nation.

while those in power and those who want war will never honor those who choose not to fight.

(And what I mean by "chose not to fight"; I mean not taking endless deferments or having daddy buy them out or get them a stateside commission)

those of us who see through the bullshit and bluster, know full well the courage it takes to say no by true conscious objector.

[Squinch]

8. No. He was a soldier, he served the country and he endured

untold horrors to do so. Think what you will about his politics. I personally don't like his politics. But don't echo trump by dismissing his service and sacrifice.

[Kaleva]

10. Stacey Taylor would fit right in at JPR.

[GusBob]

14. +1

His friend spelled the name wrong. It’s Stacy

[Demonaut]

12. hindsight is 20/20, fuck Stacey Taylor

we all know that Vietnam was a mistake.

It does not take away the the fact he decided to stay at the Hanoi Hilton even though he was offered the chance to leave.

[CentralMass]

15. Our military is controlled by the civilian government in this country.

Blaming McCain for his service or diminishing it because our government declared war isn't right.

Some stats.

2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam.
58,148 were killed in Vietnam, 75,000 severely disabled, 23,214 were 100% disabled, 5,283 lost limbs and 1,081 sustained multiple amputations.

Of those killed, 61% were younger than 21 years old.

11,465 of those killed were younger than 20 years old.

Of those killed, 17,539 were married.

The average age of the men killed: 23.1 years.

As of April 14, 2017, there are 1,611 Americans still unaccounted for from the Vietnam War across Vietnam (1,258), Laos(297), Cambodia(49), and China

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

16. I didn't care for his politics but I respect his heroism as a POW.

He didn't plan the Vietnam war, Rolling Thunder or the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. He was a soldier who fought in a war he didn't create (and which I protested at the time). I disagreed with him about 99% on his positions as a legislator and presidential candidate, but I'm not going to do a Trump and piss on his grave for what he did during the war.

[SHRED]

17. The real heroes in the Vietnam era to me

To me the real heroes in the Vietnam era were those who went to Canada, those that died or were injured in the streets protesting, and everyone who worked hard to end the madness.

Lots of "Nuremburg" defense going on in this thread...wow. Didn't see that coming really. Oh well.

[GusBob]

18. Trump dodged the war with fake bone spurs

? heroic?

Al Gore, John Kerry.....what is your opinion of them?

[SHRED]

19. Trump is a chickenhawk hypocrite

I am of the opinion that no one should have gone to Vietnam.
Gore and Kerry at least had the courage of their convictions although I disagree with them going.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

20. Really?

You honestly didn't see this sort of reaction coming?

Life ain't a zero-sum game, my friend.

[SHRED]

21. I did somewhat

Not this much.
I'm okay with it.