There is no valid argument against impeachment.

[kentuck]

Last edited Wed Mar 20, 2019, 09:35 AM - Edit history (1)

There is simply no way to defend the indecency, the dishonesty, the disrespect, the vulgarity, the division, the crimes, the attacks upon our rule of law.

There is simply no way to defend such behavior.

Democrats and Republicans should act like Americans and take a stand.

We have a choice. We can choose what kind of country we wish to be.

It is time to take a stand.

[HopeAgain]

1. I have one

Mike Pence. He is hellbent on bringing Christian sharia to this Country.

[edhopper]

6. He will be a damaged VP

of a damaged Party, and have a very short time in office.

Not a reason to avoid impeachment.

[spanone]

62. also, NOBODY likes pence.

[CaptainTruth]

11. Yep, & Pence would have FAR better odds of winning in 2020 than Trump.

That assumes Trump could be convicted in the current Senate before the 2020 election, which would never happen. Republicans would never go along with it, so impeaching Trump in the House would accomplish nothing more than to fire up the Republican base for 2020.

At the end of the day I'm ok if he isn't impeached because impeachment won't put him in prison, which is where I want to see him.

[at140]

27. I think you make a rational argument and so does Nancy Pelosi

If impeachment is going to take place, a better time would be if Trump is re-elected.
As you said, attempting impeachment before election will fail in senate and will serve to fire up the Trumpster's base. Trump will lose in 2020 on his own. Everyday he makes new enemies. Pence has a slightly better chance to win compared to Trump because the establishment republicans are not anti-Pencers.

[edhopper]

63. On what Planet do you think

a disliked VP of a disgraced, impeached President would have any chance of being elected.

[dlk]

2. You are Correct, However...

What happens when the House impeaches & the Republican controlled Senate won’t vote to convict?

[kentuck]

3. Then those Republicans will have to answer to the rest of America.

Do you think the voters will reward them for keeping such a snake in power?

[Kaleva]

8. Voters in the last election kept the Repubs in control of the Senate.

[Fiendish Thingy]

18. There are way more GOP Senators up for reelection in 2020 than 2016

The momentum is on our side, and we should make them take a stand.

[at140]

29. Correct, and that is why impeachment succeeds in 2021, not

before 2020 election.

[Fiendish Thingy]

44. If the patient is bleeding out, you can't wait until you have enough bandages

You must protect the Constitution now, not in 2021, when it may be too late.

Put the pressure on the Senators up for reelection now, make them face all the evidence from all the investigations, and take a stand for or against the Constitution.

[at140]

58. If you have no bandages,

rip off your shirt and use it as a tourniquet, as a temporary measure.
And right now we have no bandages with the 53:47 senate.

Before 2020 election, there is small chance the senate will remove him even if House votes impeachment. After the election there is a very good probability dems will be 50+ in senate.

[happybird]

13. Yes, they will.

Do you live in a blue or a red state?
I live in a very red state and these people truly believe any attempt to impeach their dear leader is nothing but a political ploy by librulz and the deep state. A failed attempt would just "prove their point" and garner more support for Dump.

[edhopper]

4. Either

the voters see the GOP complicit in Trump's obvious crimes,
or they see it as vindication for Trump.

Hard to say which.

[GulfCoast66]

5. Yes, there is a valid argument against it.

Impeachment is at its heart a political action. And the politics are against it now. The house might impeach. Might.

The Senate will never convict. And then we make Trump stronger.

Nancy knows this better that I do.

[edhopper]

7. Or the whole GOP

weaker.
Impossible to know which.

[kentuck]

9. Right!

When it comes to justice and the security of our nation, there is no political decision to make. It is not a valid argument.

[GulfCoast66]

10. I strongly disagree. At this time there is no downside for Trump in impeachment.

That may change if we learn more, but do you see any of his supporters leaving him with what we now know? Cause they know it as well. And don’t believe it and haven’t left him.

[marylandblue]

19. Of course it's a political decision. You can be as morally correct as you want.

It doesn't change the political facts. The Republicans have already made their decision to support Trump and there is nothing we can do about it. The best we can hope for is that one of the investigations turns up enough damaging information to take Trump down. Until then, impeachment is pointless at best, and perhaps works against our next best option - voting him out.

[sprinkleeninow]

34. Have to say, I'm with you on that. After I mulled over pros and cons.

Hi, marylandblue. 🤗

[theophilus]

12. A valid argument: An impeachment with no conviction would almost certainly hand a second term

to Trump or ignite a civil war with actual fighting in the streets. Are we feeling lucky?

[kentuck]

14. In my opinion...

No impeachment at all will more likely hand them a second term. Are you saying that the American people cannot handle the truth?

[marylandblue]

20. Haven't they demonstrated they are not even willing to hear the truth?

That might change, but they aren't even listening right now.

[theophilus]

23. His supporters either are being brainwashed by choice or don't care. Fox News

sowed to the wind and we are about to all reap the whirlwind if not extremely careful. I know good people who vote Republican because of their beliefs on abortion. They have put their hands over their ears and never watch the news. They are one issue voters. I know that is a cop out. There are other reasons for many: guns, gay bashing, etc. What I hear from those I know is only abortion, though. This is an extremely dangerous situation the rich have gotten us into by using Fox and the Limbaugh types. If the Democrats manage to save the planet and the country we will receive no credit. The Reps will say, "See, I told you it was all a hoax and face news!" This is the cross we bear but this time it might be impossible to pull the countries nuts out of the fire.

[rzemanfl]

53. K. n/t

[TwilightZone]

30. The people who voted for Trump aren't interested in truth.

This should be rather obvious by now. If nothing he's done so far has changed their minds, you think further evidence of similar crimes are going to make them suddenly have a change of heart? They don't even believe the truth about him *now*.

[Fiendish Thingy]

16. No evidence to support that outcome

You're thinking Clinton, and we're way, way past Nixon territory.

[Mr Tibbs]

59. There's no evidence of that

[Fiendish Thingy]

15. Protecting the Constitution comes before party and politics

Make the GOP take a stand.

[Codeine]

17. There are a few reasons, actually.

That you do not agree with those reasons does not render them invalid.

[Demsrule86]

21. Impeachment without conviction would give Trump another term...investigate him - The GOP

showed how effective it was against Hillary Clinton.

[Timewas]

22. Absolutely

Tak it to the and force all of them dems and pugs to show where they really stand and let the chips fall where they may

[redstateblues]

24. Want 4 more years of Trump? Impeach him

Without 67 Senators there would be no removal. Let’s kick his ass in the 2020 election!!

[kentuck]

36. There is the assumption that Democrats will remain loyal to the Party if nothing is done.

That, likewise, is a gamble.

[myohmy2]

25. we need to do what's right, regardless...

...trump has set such a low corrupt standard for presidential conduct that to leave him in office unchallenged without impeachment is to become complicit in the degradation of our Constitution and the highest office of our land...

...win or lose impeachment, win or lose in 2020, we owe it to ourselves and our posterity to stand for something greater than immediate political expediency...

...we often challenge Republicans to embrace country over party; we must be willing to do the same...if not, the trump presidency may become the new norm and that should be totally unacceptable to most patriots...

...we only have one chance to get this right...

...let's not blow it...

[redstateblues]

33. Just think of the damage Trump could with another 4 years

Which is what we’ll have if the Republican Senate doesn’t remove Trump(which it won’t)

[myohmy2]

61. I agree...

...four more years of trump wouldn't be pretty and worse if they took back the House...

...but we've been there and done that for the first two years under trump/Republican rule...we survived

...my concern is that not to fervently reject and challenge the trump presidency with any and all legitimate means possible is to establish a new unacceptably low standard for the office...

...do we really want trump's attack of our Constitution, embracement of our enemies and the attacking of our allies, personal daily bullying of fellow citizens, perpetual lying, obstruction of justice, racist bigoted and threatening speech, encouragements of violence, belligerent threats of nuclear war, selling of pardons, perpetual division of Americans, governance by fear, declaring his own dictatorial powers, to become acceptable norms for the Presidency?

...we need to be willing to stand up and fight for the America we knew/know and love...and after that fight should we lose at the polls, then a majority of Americans will have fundamentally changed and we will no longer be the country we once knew...

...but I have faith in the righteousness of most Americans...I have faith in the goodness of Americans everywhere to do the right thing...our beloved America deserve this fight; she deserves to be defended...

...we need to be very careful what we chose to ignore at our own peril...

...

[jalan48]

26. And if we lose the House in 2020 not doing it when we could will make even less sense.

[PufPuf23]

28. I agree with you Kentuck except past time to take a stand.

Alas our Democratic party leadership and many other Democrats do not agree.

Some say that if the Senate does not convict, Trump will get another term. Others say Pence will be even worse.

How did that work out for taking "impeachment off the table" with GWB? More crap happened and now GWB almost has statesman status and is openly friendly with Democratic leadership.

IMO POTUS Obama still would have been elected POTUS, the best POTUS as my voting life since 1971 (with one tactical exception in the 1980 primary when I registered GOP and voted Anderson in the primary to weaken Reagan).

If we don't even attempt impeachment and signal that Trump is in an impeachment-free safe zone, we just continue the chaos.

Impeachment even if fails on first try in the Senate may well burst a huge Democratic Tide like we have never seen. This is just as likely as causing a 2nd Trump term. Talking civil war is childish.

If we don't try, we will never know and a generational opportunity will be foregone.

The Democratic party should go out on full scale press in the hinterlands, rural areas and Red States. That is what FDR did and with vengeance. The Democratic Party has lost ground in rural and Red USA since FDR because we took the eye off the problems. This backwards areas are not monoliths, there are people that can be linked and supported so the Senate and electoral college can be a strength, not part of the USA to be looked down on as not worth a try.

Things as simple as a 21st century WPA and CCC building infrastructure, a health care system that maximizes health care not protect corporate control and profit, cheap and available education, and secure lives for the elderly and less fortunate.

Just like impeachment of Trump is not only moral and patriotic but an opportunity more than a risk. If Trump gets a 2nd term it will because he was not confronted and denied. Just IMHO but I am frustrated by it all.

[egduj]

31. Fear is what is keeping impeachment off the table.

[SlogginThroughIt]

47. Impeachment is NOT off the table

That is not what the speaker said. She said at this time it isn’t worth it. When evidence supports it that will change.

I think we would all love nothing more than to see him impeached but it goes nowhere right now. If we are looking to simply put a decision in front of GOP senate to show where they are at, it makes much more sense to present them with issues that all Americans would like to see passed. Things like healthcare. Put those bills in front of them to put them on record, because an impeachment isn’t going to be taken kindly by many. Also there is judicial routes being pursued and stepping on those toes may inhibit or damage those investigations.

[58Sunliner]

32. I agree. A demoralized electorate does not vote in big numbers.

[pnwmom]

35. Yeah there is. If he beats the impeachment in the House, then we've empowered him.

It would give him a boost in the election.

As an alternative, we can hold more and more public hearings, laying it all out there till the public is demanding he be impeached and that the Senate convict. At that point we should start impeachment proceedings. Not before.

[OnDoutside]

37. 47 Senate votes says No. All you will do is hurt the Democratic Party. It would remind me of the

Grand Old Duke of York.

[Vinca]

38. We should hold our fire until the Mueller report comes in. If the GOP cared more about

the country than their cult, Trump would already be gone . . . but they don't. If we impeach right now it won't amount to anything and it will hand the Orange King and his lemming-like followers the best talking point ever. They thrive on victimhood. Their entire 2020 campaigns would amount to "poor me." If we wait for Mueller and, as seems inevitable, the crimes are blatant and show Trump for the traitor he is, we might get enough Republicans to wake up and get rid of him. To be honest, all I want is Don and his crime family to end up behind bars. They've been gaming the country and taking whatever they want for decades and it's time to pay.

[kentuck]

40. "They thrive on victimhood."

You're right about that!

[kentuck]

39. To be honest, I have vacillated on this subject.

Nancy Pelosi makes a very cogent argument, but I do not think we should ever take the impeachment issue off the table. I'm not sure that is what she has done?

Justice delayed is justice denied?

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor, we do agree.

We want to believe that as more and more evidence is gathered against Mr Trump, his supporters will be persuaded to see their relationship with Mr Trump differently. That may or may not be true?

What is the definition of a "misdemeanor"? As in "high crimes and misdemeanors"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_crimes_and_misdemeanors

<snip>
The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct by officials, such as perjury of oath, abuse of authority, bribery, intimidation, misuse of assets, failure to supervise, dereliction of duty, unbecoming conduct, refusal to obey a lawful order, chronic intoxication, and tax evasion. Offenses by officials also include ordinary crimes, but perhaps with different standards of proof and punishment than for nonofficials, on the grounds that more is expected of officials by their oaths of office.
======================

We can accept the facts or we can deny them. It is rare that truth is so divisive?

[Tom Rinaldo]

41. Agreed, there is however an argument in favor of not starting that procedure...

...before Mueller issues his findings. I hope that Pelosi has plans to pivot on impeachment as soon as the full range of Trump's High Crimes and Misdemeanors becomes public information.

[kentuck]

43. Perhaps, in the hope of reconciliation, we might wait until after the next election?

Then...

If Trump is re-elected, but Democrats still hold the House, they could start impeachment at that time?

Or, they could begin discussions for a resignation?

The Republicans need a chore they can do.

Sometimes it is fear that prevents us from confronting the truth.

[brooklynite]

45. You know the BEST way to defend all of Donald Trump's actions?

Impeach him and fail to convict him.

[kentuck]

46. Do nothing?

Is that a better way?

[brooklynite]

49. Honestly? Yes.

Today, Trump is tainted by accusations. If you initiate an Impeachment, and fail to convict, he will be seen as having been acquitted.

[kentuck]

50. By who?

Who would see that as an acquittal?

I don't know about that?

[brooklynite]

51. The average voter who doesn't hang out on political blogs

...and who will wonder why Democrats wasted time Impeaching the President rather than dealing with the kitchen table issues they elected Democrats to deal with.

[kentuck]

52. Which kitchen table issues are they not dealing with?

They can walk and chew gum simultaneously.

[brooklynite]

55. Yes, they ARE dealing with them...while not dealing with Impeachment

[edhopper]

48. There is no valid LEGAL argument

but there are valid POLITICAL arguments.

I think after Mueller and the House hearings, they will have to impeach.

[beachbum bob]

54. not liking trump isn't impeachable, why the rush? Trump can only dig his/GOP hole deeper

lets wait for the investigations to reveal the stuff

[kentuck]

57. I don't know who he is digging the hole for?

But we shouldn't stand too close to the edge.

[Kurt V.]

56. agree 100%.

[krawhitham]

60. Problem is 99% of the "evidence" is just media reports and not real PROOF

[Trumpocalypse]

64. Yes, the people are against it

The highest Impeachment has gotten in most polls is around 40%. There needs to be an overwhelming will of the people’s to move forward with impeachment.