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Police search cancer patient's room (Original Post) Lotusflower70 Mar 2019 OP
Book em Danno. lpbk2713 Mar 2019 #1
Stage 4 cancer and they still can't leave people alone. What a fucked up society we live in. n/t RKP5637 Mar 2019 #2
Not if they could get a collar to up their score. nt tblue37 Mar 2019 #3
Support big pharma to the grave malaise Mar 2019 #14
I've always viewed America, collectively, as basically a stupid country. Many have done great things RKP5637 Mar 2019 #47
I have bad news for you malaise Mar 2019 #55
Yeah, it really is, isn't it! RKP5637 Mar 2019 #57
The DA in our town will not prosecute people growing pot for their own medical needs. Dustlawyer Mar 2019 #89
That is amazing!!! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2019 #93
Who ratted him out? Someone at the hospital? And did they have a warrant? What... TreasonousBastard Mar 2019 #4
I was wondering the same thing PatSeg Mar 2019 #18
Okay PatSeg Mar 2019 #22
You don't smoke THC caps obamanut2012 Mar 2019 #34
I know PatSeg Mar 2019 #43
what kind of a person would do that? 2naSalit Mar 2019 #50
Yeah, the world is full of those unfortunately PatSeg Mar 2019 #54
that's a generic reason onethatcares Mar 2019 #45
It doesn't look like the cops were happy to be there PatSeg Mar 2019 #53
Knowing they were being recorded would make them look unhappy. Mariana Mar 2019 #87
Yes, that dawned on me as well PatSeg Mar 2019 #104
Right, there are too many witnesses in a hospital setting. nt. Mariana Mar 2019 #106
If it was a hospital employee that would be a HIPAA violation big time. Laffy Kat Mar 2019 #69
Not merely a HIPAA violation - but it puts patients at severe risk Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #85
That's a pretty big stretch fescuerescue Mar 2019 #116
We have a different opinion about HIPAA then. nt Laffy Kat Mar 2019 #118
I would be shocked if we didn't! fescuerescue Mar 2019 #122
Wouldn't need a warrant fescuerescue Mar 2019 #115
i think this is less about weed legalization and more Kurt V. Mar 2019 #5
Yep, good ole backwards Missouri. Canoe52 Mar 2019 #46
in our last election, we Missourians passed med. weed, higher min wage ($13 by 2023) , Kurt V. Mar 2019 #96
You're right, it's wrong to paint with such a broad stroke. Canoe52 Mar 2019 #102
i may have seen him. haha. i share your anguish . i live in rural area too. there are just Kurt V. Mar 2019 #105
Scumbag thugs. nt RandiFan1290 Mar 2019 #6
It's dumb on both sides if you ask me ... F the Poh-leece of course, but ... mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #7
MJ is still the best anti-emetic there is AND Seedersandleechers Mar 2019 #8
Take it ALONG with the pain killers then, for the the anti-emetic qualities and don't tell the docs mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #10
It is a great anti-nausea med.... Heartstrings Mar 2019 #44
Anti-emetic and anti-nausea are more or less the same thing, I would think :) mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #59
I agree.... Heartstrings Mar 2019 #77
Maybe it's a personal preference Lotusflower70 Mar 2019 #23
Physical dependence and constipation are by far the most common negative side effects ... mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #26
Hmmm Lotusflower70 Mar 2019 #41
Actually morphine would be exactly analogous to a THC capsule, an extract of the active ingredient mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #56
Prescription drugs, esp. painkillers are very hard on the liver robbob Mar 2019 #51
Exactly Lotusflower70 Mar 2019 #61
Which has nothing to do with opioids ... mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #68
Um ... Bullshit? mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #64
Well, 2 points I can mention: robbob Mar 2019 #83
Thanks for the clarification ... And now we're almost entirely in agreement :) mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #86
And I appreciate your respectful tone. robbob Mar 2019 #91
NP. Check my edit, too ... if you care to :) mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #92
I did! Thanks, I learn so much on DU... robbob Mar 2019 #95
And that's why I'm here ... I have my few areas of semi-expertise due to particular subjects I find mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #99
There ARE effective and fairly easy ways to remove the acetaminophen Crunchy Frog Mar 2019 #120
In the early 90's there wasn't an internet to look these things up ;) mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #123
Yes, the acetominophen that's in most prescription pain pills Mariana Mar 2019 #88
Quite frankly the word toxic is way overused and often in the wrong context. tymorial Mar 2019 #72
Exactly ... and thank you for showing up :) (nt) mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #74
Not true for everyone -- MJ/THC works much, much better on me than opioids obamanut2012 Mar 2019 #36
Okay friend ... if you say so ... mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #73
Because that guy like me hates the effects of opiates. And I let my VA doctors know I use pot ... marble falls Mar 2019 #49
That's awesome that THC works for you in that way, it's certainly a better alternative if it works! mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #79
Seems to me the guy with stage four pancreatic cancer agree with me. marble falls Mar 2019 #117
Yeah, well, I hear what you're saying ... BUT we don't necessarily have all the facts mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #126
After five bladder cancer surgeries and a partial colon removal 5 yrs, and the method used ... marble falls Mar 2019 #128
Don't cops have better things to do? Backwards ass BS walkingman Mar 2019 #9
My reaction as well PatSeg Mar 2019 #13
Oh my god PatSeg Mar 2019 #24
Police must follow the law and answer a complaint. democratisphere Mar 2019 #11
Police make decisions on what to investigate daily, they could of passed on this. nt USALiberal Mar 2019 #15
If the police had not answered this complaint, the a**hole that originally complained democratisphere Mar 2019 #19
You go to hospital, talk to complainant, talk to suspect, leave hospital. No search needed. nt USALiberal Mar 2019 #39
Our police always "answer complaints." hunter Mar 2019 #58
They were doing it by the book. democratisphere Mar 2019 #67
Capsules RandiFan1290 Mar 2019 #20
Understood. democratisphere Mar 2019 #25
Probably after the blood test RandiFan1290 Mar 2019 #35
100% not true! nt USALiberal Mar 2019 #40
Unfortunately it is true. Got 2 family members that are police officers. democratisphere Mar 2019 #65
I have 3 and asked 2. Nice try. nt USALiberal Mar 2019 #75
Accusation that a person smoking marijuana in a hospital democratisphere Mar 2019 #81
I had a couple in the store I help run threatening violence, calling my boss racist names... ck4829 Mar 2019 #125
I believe instead of "discretion", you were dealing democratisphere Mar 2019 #127
ridiculous. spanone Mar 2019 #12
Anybody know where this was? CanonRay Mar 2019 #16
Boliver, Mo. Lochloosa Mar 2019 #28
Thanks CanonRay Mar 2019 #37
Nice haircut. pangaia Mar 2019 #17
And hat. Chin music Mar 2019 #29
Hair fashions by the,... magicarpet Mar 2019 #32
Or the Waffen SS pangaia Mar 2019 #33
Looks like a standard American military haircut. Niagara Mar 2019 #84
But he is a cop.. pangaia Mar 2019 #107
Yes Niagara Mar 2019 #108
I think I heard that... In fact I know a campus cop pangaia Mar 2019 #111
Don't these guys have anything better to do? smirkymonkey Mar 2019 #21
Pro life folks strike again. Chin music Mar 2019 #27
Yep Lotusflower70 Mar 2019 #42
So a location? More info? irisblue Mar 2019 #30
Somewhere in Missouri. nt chowder66 Mar 2019 #66
"If you don't have anything to hide" Tell that to the trump family. Chin music Mar 2019 #31
Sad. I'm glad i don't live in one of those shit states. dem4decades Mar 2019 #38
I feel safer now. Thanks cops Demovictory9 Mar 2019 #48
And what if they had found something? gratuitous Mar 2019 #52
They said they'd write a citation. nolabear Mar 2019 #78
Trump country no doubt. SHRED Mar 2019 #60
I'm not singling you out, but I'm far enough down the thread to see this common theme. Kurt V. Mar 2019 #103
Police should walk in look at the ceiling and report seeing nothing case closed. IADEMO2004 Mar 2019 #62
The officers I believe could help themselves a great deal if they just said I'M SORRY we got a UniteFightBack Mar 2019 #63
I did hear one of the investigators say they would just issue a citation if they found any. Hoyt Mar 2019 #70
Oh for the Love of God... calimary Mar 2019 #71
My son has a chronic issue that lands him in hospital sometimes. nolabear Mar 2019 #76
I'm sorry to hear this about your son, Nolabear Niagara Mar 2019 #90
Thanks. The other side is that the ER often thinks it's pot that causes it. nolabear Mar 2019 #98
It's alright to vent Niagara Mar 2019 #109
this 60ish white working class dude says; fuck da police KG Mar 2019 #80
Sick fu**ing bastards! workinclasszero Mar 2019 #82
Just FYI, medical marijuana was approved on the ballot in Nov. 2018 and will be rolled out... SWBTATTReg Mar 2019 #94
2016 the people of Floriduh approved medical marijuana by referendum onethatcares Mar 2019 #97
I suspect too, that in MO, despite the ballot referendem being approved on med. pot, they'll ... SWBTATTReg Mar 2019 #100
yeah, in order to meet the requirements onethatcares Mar 2019 #112
Thanks for the scoop on FL. And a good one to you too. NT SWBTATTReg Mar 2019 #113
Why the hell did the doctor or hospital have to report this??!!! Duppers Mar 2019 #101
Note that the white cop is sporting a "fashy" (fascist) haircut. VOX Mar 2019 #110
Which asshole worker at that hospital ratted him out? Crunchy Frog Mar 2019 #114
Not a Hippa violation fescuerescue Mar 2019 #119
pic Demovictory9 Mar 2019 #121
K&R ck4829 Mar 2019 #124

RKP5637

(67,111 posts)
47. I've always viewed America, collectively, as basically a stupid country. Many have done great things
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:43 AM
Mar 2019

and are brilliant, but a lot of the populace is basically willfully stupid, naive and easily led. Certainly not all, but many. I have an awful lot of WTF's each day.

Dustlawyer

(10,495 posts)
89. The DA in our town will not prosecute people growing pot for their own medical needs.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:39 PM
Mar 2019

I was pleasantly shocked they would be that enlightened here in my part of Texas.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
4. Who ratted him out? Someone at the hospital? And did they have a warrant? What...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 09:54 AM
Mar 2019

judge would issue a warrant for this?

PatSeg

(47,496 posts)
18. I was wondering the same thing
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 10:48 AM
Mar 2019

Doctors and nurses routinely ask patients about any drug use, as it can help them in their diagnosis and treatment of the patient. I can't imagine anyone working in a hospital reporting it.

The whole thing is unbelievable. What a waste of taxpayer dollars. If this was a top priority, then that police department is overstaffed.

PatSeg

(47,496 posts)
22. Okay
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 10:55 AM
Mar 2019

One cop said that someone reported the smell of marijuana coming from the room. Could have been a visitor or another patient.

obamanut2012

(26,080 posts)
34. You don't smoke THC caps
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:14 AM
Mar 2019

And, if they were vaping, that also does not smell like weed. It is one little puff that faintly smells of bail, bubblegum, lemon, whatever the flavoring is you choose. Mine smells/tastes like Girl Scout lemon cookies.

You cannot smoke anything in a hospital, there are smoke detectors all over, and any whiff of any type of smoke will be discovered ASAP. That person is a liar.

PatSeg

(47,496 posts)
43. I know
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:26 AM
Mar 2019

That's what it sounds like to me. Maybe someone overheard him talking about using marijuana and then claimed to have smelled it. Then you have to ask yourself, what kind of a person would do that?

onethatcares

(16,172 posts)
45. that's a generic reason
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:37 AM
Mar 2019

to search anyone/any place.

Cop says, "I smell marijuana" even though it could be a patchouli sachet or some other spice.

Pretty ambiguous imho.

PatSeg

(47,496 posts)
53. It doesn't look like the cops were happy to be there
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:58 AM
Mar 2019

I'm sure whoever said "I smell marijuana" was lying and I'll bet those police would have rather been somewhere else. I am assuming they were just following orders. Its a good thing they sent three cops, as it looked like a really dangerous situation.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
87. Knowing they were being recorded would make them look unhappy.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:33 PM
Mar 2019

Cops usually don't like being recorded.

PatSeg

(47,496 posts)
104. Yes, that dawned on me as well
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 03:15 PM
Mar 2019

And being recorded would make them more subdued, though I can't imagine them getting too aggressive in a hospital setting.

Ms. Toad

(34,074 posts)
85. Not merely a HIPAA violation - but it puts patients at severe risk
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:31 PM
Mar 2019

because it discourages people from being honest with their doctors about what they are taking if anything they are taking is illegal. It is critical that doctors know anything you have taken that might interact with anything they might prescribe.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
116. That's a pretty big stretch
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 08:52 PM
Mar 2019

If the hospital reported to the cops that the patient is using thc to treat his illness - yes it would be a Hippa violation.

But we all know it was reported as "smelling marijuana" which isn't HIPPA protected. Neither is "he said he has marijuna" or "I heard him say it he has it"

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
122. I would be shocked if we didn't!
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 09:15 PM
Mar 2019

Ask 20 people their opinion on HIPPA and you'll get 21 answers. You would be amazed at how much misunderstanding of HIPAA exists.

I've found that doctors and nurses are usually way off since they specialize in healthcare, NOT information security and what they know about HIPPA they learned in a half day seminar.

While I don't specialize in HIPPA per se, it's a big part of my information security practice mostly because I have alot of hospital as clients.

The patient probably has a pretty good civil case, but wouldn't based on HIPPA as HIPPA doesn't provide for violated patient to collect on the HIPPA violation claim. (Any fine is paid to the government, NOT the patient and almost all cases are resolved by guidance not monetary penalty)

(Just for the record I believe weed should be legal EVERYWHERE btw, just in case you thought I was defending the cops here)

Here's a pretty good article on HIPPA if you are interested in learning more
https://www.hipaajournal.com/sue-for-hipaa-violation/

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
115. Wouldn't need a warrant
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 08:48 PM
Mar 2019

The hospital is legally entitled to give permission.

It doesn't have the protections of a home, apartment, even a car.

Kurt V.

(5,624 posts)
5. i think this is less about weed legalization and more
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 09:54 AM
Mar 2019

about when authority discards common decency. Police have leeway

Kurt V.

(5,624 posts)
96. in our last election, we Missourians passed med. weed, higher min wage ($13 by 2023) ,
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 02:17 PM
Mar 2019

Clean Missouri act which ends gerrymandering, and defeated right-to-work (again).

Canoe52

(2,948 posts)
102. You're right, it's wrong to paint with such a broad stroke.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 02:47 PM
Mar 2019

But I’m from rural Illinois, and a family member is a reich wing repug now over in your state, so my opinion comes from a pretty jaded view of the heartland. But glad things are starting to change there.

Say hi to my brother it you see him, He’s easy to spot, he’ll be the one wearing a red maga hat.

Kurt V.

(5,624 posts)
105. i may have seen him. haha. i share your anguish . i live in rural area too. there are just
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 03:38 PM
Mar 2019

enough liberals around here to keep each other sane.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
7. It's dumb on both sides if you ask me ... F the Poh-leece of course, but ...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 10:00 AM
Mar 2019

If you have stage 4 cancer, in the hospital ... you might as freaking well take the good stuff they're freely giving you. I don't care WHAT you tell me, THC is nowhere near the painkiller for serious pain that strong opioids are, it just isn't. It may help with mild to medium pain (for some), but this is stage 4 cancer. It's admirable to try to tough it out with sub-par pain relief, but ... man, I really don't see the value.

If you can beat the Stage IV, you can quit the opioids later, should you develop physical addiction, I'd betcha. You're friggin' tough, you can do it!

AGAIN, it should be his choice, and TOTALLY RIDICULOUS of the cops. But it's also a bad choice by the Patient IMHO. And it's especially bad idea to TELL the docs at hospital if you live in a state where medicinal is still illegal. They likely are REQUIRED legally to report this to the cops (or at minimum by the conglomerate that owns the hospital).

Seedersandleechers

(3,044 posts)
8. MJ is still the best anti-emetic there is AND
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 10:03 AM
Mar 2019

medical MJ was passed in Mo in November and is soon to take effect. They are in a Boliver, Mo.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
10. Take it ALONG with the pain killers then, for the the anti-emetic qualities and don't tell the docs
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 10:10 AM
Mar 2019

That's what I'd do ... or if you really don't need the pain killers, you CAN refuse to take them, I'm quite sure of that. You don't have to tell the doc you have a substitute.

Heartstrings

(7,349 posts)
44. It is a great anti-nausea med....
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:31 AM
Mar 2019

I use CBD with .03 THC during a migraine....works much better than any big pharmacy drug.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
59. Anti-emetic and anti-nausea are more or less the same thing, I would think :)
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:12 PM
Mar 2019

But yeah, FOR SURE. It's awesome for both those things, plus appetite enhancement.

Every cancer patient should be allowed THC, ABSOLUTELY 1000%!!!

And I guess if it's enough for the pain, too, more power to 'em.

Personally if I had Stage IV cancer, I'd be taking both ... cause to ME, THC is a shit painkiller. I've tried it, believe me ... more than once. It's okay for mild pain, but I cannot possibly imagine it would cover stage IV cancer pain adequately.

Heartstrings

(7,349 posts)
77. I agree....
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:15 PM
Mar 2019

Minor aches and pains it helps possibly because it's a relaxant as well, but can't imagine it would make a dent in any chronic 10 (on the pain scale) pain....

Lotusflower70

(3,077 posts)
23. Maybe it's a personal preference
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 10:56 AM
Mar 2019

Pain killers can have brutal side effects. If there is a way to go more natural rather than toxic, I am all in.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
26. Physical dependence and constipation are by far the most common negative side effects ...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:02 AM
Mar 2019

Oh, and I suppose you could always OD and die, but presumably the docs know how to handle that ... in a hospital.

And there's nothing 'toxic' about opioids (not the kind they're going to give you in hospital, anyway). Where did you hear they're 'toxic'?

They're also natural, btw ... you have heard of opium poppies, right?

Lotusflower70

(3,077 posts)
41. Hmmm
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:23 AM
Mar 2019

Opium poppies are different than the chemicals created in a lab. I have just seen too many people suffer from opioids. They can be brutal. I wouldn't touch fentanyl or oxycodone. The sedation and nausea can be overwhelming. Not everyone tolerates it the same even in a prescription dose. But it is always an individual decision.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
56. Actually morphine would be exactly analogous to a THC capsule, an extract of the active ingredient
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:07 PM
Mar 2019

of the plant Same with Codeine.

It's true that some opioids including morphine (interestingly, since it's the MOST natural) and meperidine (a pure synthetic known as Demerol) are considered unsafe for long term use, due to build up in the body of unhealthy metabolites, but that's over the course of years.

And propoxyphene (pure synthetic branded as Darvon/Darvocet) is now banned period due to possibility of heart rhythm issues.

The rest of 'em though ... including Codeine, Hydro/Oxycodone, Fentanyl, Dilaudid (hydromorphone), Opana (oxymorphone) are considered safe to take indefinitely (last I read), and exhibit no known toxicity to the organs of the body, including the brain.

Most drugs when you first start taking them, including THC, Nicotine and Alcohol ... can produce nausea and sedation (or the opposite of sedation). Opioids are actually one of the best-tolerated drugs there are. You may not 'feel well' at first, but most people's bodies adjust pretty quickly. Reason being, they are, at their heart, artificial endorphins. They work the same as your bodies own pain-relieving mechanism. You know how people and animals, when they're extremely stressed (i.e. fight or flight), don't feel pain the same way? Opioids mimic that, using the exact same pathways.

And that's why they're a BITCH to quit. Because your body STOPS MAKING endorphins, while at the same time, overproducing adrenaline ... it does so in order to offset the sedative effect of the introduced exogenous endorphins and keep you awake, basically ...

So when you quit, you feel incredibly wired and panicky, due to excess adrenaline, with at the same time, pain emanating from EVERYWHERE, because you have no natural painkillers, cause your body has stopped producing them on it's own ... there was no need, you see ... it has nothing to do with any 'toxins', however. It's just completely predictable, and very NATURAL ... human biology.

This all being said, the case at hand here is Stage IV cancer patient ... I would 100% and ENTIRELY recommend using THC if possible over opioids to deal with pain. It's CLEARLY safer, and much, much, MUCH less addictive. But if you're already dyin' ... I'm just sayin' ... you might as well use the stuff that actually works, for real, IMHO.

In terms of 'it's going to kill you', at a biological level, opioids are only *slightly* more harmful than THC ... but that's assuming you don't OD, or get so addicted you end up offing yourself due to the suffering that opioid addiction brings ... which is not present with THC, obviously.

But IT STILL SHOULD BE UP TO THE PATIENT 100%!!!

robbob

(3,531 posts)
51. Prescription drugs, esp. painkillers are very hard on the liver
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:52 AM
Mar 2019

Long term use can cause permanent liver damage. So yeah, toxic.

Lotusflower70

(3,077 posts)
61. Exactly
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:15 PM
Mar 2019

I take one medication for epilepsy. And I used to have my liver checked regularly for this very reason. I think too often big pharma tries to minimize the long term effects.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
68. Which has nothing to do with opioids ...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:23 PM
Mar 2019

You're 100% correct to distrust big pharma, to be clear. YES they would do what you say.

But opioids have been studied in depth since WAY before the days of 'big pharma', and it's been done WORLD WIDE. Looking at them is not at all like looking at some brand-new patented Epilepsy med that's only been studied by hand-picked 'researchers' to pass FDA approval.

We know a TREMENDOUS amount about these drugs, and the research goes back many, many decades.

Opioids are, at their heart, natural medications, which work in very, very well understood ways, and work upon very, very ancient neural pathways (in terms of our evolutionary heritage ... hell, BIRDS get hooked on opioids!).

There's nothing very complex about them, or their mechanism ... they are, essentially, endorphins, originally created in the plant kingdom.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
64. Um ... Bullshit?
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:17 PM
Mar 2019

Maybe some OTHER drugs ... Rx or otherwise ... such as ... acetaminophen for example can cause liver damage... but opioids aren't known to cause liver damage. Or damage to any other organs for that matter.

A FEW of them, such as Morphine and Demerol are not recommended for long-term use due to build up of unhealthy metabolites, but most of them have zero known toxicity to the organs of the body.

All due respect, you're incorrect, my friend

robbob

(3,531 posts)
83. Well, 2 points I can mention:
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:29 PM
Mar 2019

Point #1: there is a semantic point of clarification needed, in both my post and the poster I was originally defending, between “prescription painkillers” and pure opioids. I don’t remember if the original article mentions specifically what pain management protocol the patient was on, but in fact many medications used for pain management do indeed cause liver damage, and,

Point #2: while I am no expert on the effects of opioids, and in fact believe the long term affects are much milder then the anti drug brigade would have you believe, a quick google search of “opioids+liver damage” produces lots of links that suggest a correlation.

So, when referring to pure opioids, “toxic” might be too strong a word, but “prescription painkillers” might in fact include a wide variety of medications that are not good for the liver, and opioids can, in fact, be harmful over the long term.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
86. Thanks for the clarification ... And now we're almost entirely in agreement :)
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:32 PM
Mar 2019

Nothing I love more than a consensus with my fellow Dems

On edit: I think it's kinda fascinating the level of DU'ers ... uh ... disdain for ZOMG OXYCONTIN ... when in reality, it's a far more 'humane' alternative to the common oxycodone formulation that existed before it, that being Percocet. It's the difference between taking pure Oxycodone (Oxy), which is almost entirely non-toxic ... vs taking a small amount of Oxycodone and a copious amount of liver-destroying Acetaminophen (Percocet) in every pill.

In fact, prior to about 1998, unless you had advanced cancer, as a patient, you were NOT getting an acetaminophen-free version of an opioid. You got either Vicodin (hydrocodone + acetaminophen) or Percocet. Or if you had a decent doc, you could maybe get Percodan, which was Oxy+Aspirin, which is much less toxic. Not HEALTHY by any stretch, but not 'as bad'.

And the unavailability of pure opioids was done PURPOSEFULLY. The DEA literally wanted to make sure you'd poison yourself, destroy your liver ... before you got seriously hooked on opioids, so they insisted they ONLY allow pure opioids to people on the verge of death from cancer or the like.

Needless to say, it didn't work very well (or ... maybe it worked great, not sure), and 10's of 1000's of people ended up wrecking their livers and dying young, because the opioids hooked 'em, then they'd end up taking the equivalent of 30, 40, 90 Extra Strength Tylenols every freaking day to get their 'fix'. Or they moved to heroin, which maybe saved their lives, paradoxically enough.

robbob

(3,531 posts)
95. I did! Thanks, I learn so much on DU...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 02:10 PM
Mar 2019

Even just in formulating my original post I made sure to do SOME research rather then just fire from the hip! I found out a few things: many of the links I read do indeed point out that it’s less the opioids and more the other drugs they combo it with that cause the liver damage. And also, whatever liver damage caused by long term opioid use is a result of the slowing of the metabolism which is an effect of the drug, rather then any toxicity in the drug itself.

I’ve also heard over the years things relating to your points on edit: heroin and pure codeine (naturally derived from plant source) are among the least harmful ways to treat severe pain. Heroin of course has already been demonized beyond any expectation for rehabilitation as a pain relief med, and I believe codeine has suffered a similar fate.

We could have turned the poppy fields of Afghanistan into a major supplier of medical grade opioids, enriching the country and greatly benefitting the local population instead of trying to burn it down. But, as the question always goes when discussing policies that benefit ordinary people, how does doing THAT help enrich the already obscenely wealthy? In this case, big pharma.

One last story I’d like to share; something I believe I heard on CBC radio in a story about narcotics and addiction. A decade or so ago, when the UK was still running the addicts treatment program (in which registered addicts would report morning and night for their 12 hour dose of pure opioids) a study was done on the general health of these registered addicts, some of whom had been on the program for 20 years or more, and found that their over all levels of health were much higher then the general population in the same age catagory. Probably in no small part due to the incompatibility of opioids and alcohol, which is actually one of the MOST toxic substances we regularly consume (...and one of the most toxic stressors on the liver!). It is really the lifestyle of the American addict that is detrimental to the health, not the drug itself.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
99. And that's why I'm here ... I have my few areas of semi-expertise due to particular subjects I find
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 02:35 PM
Mar 2019

interesting ... and I try to share what I've learned on DU.

I admit I had 'motives' for researching this particular subject ... the first two being my dad's chronic pain, and my best friend's addiction in the 90's ... and my own need for opioids at a certain point in my life ... but suffice to say I've learned a LOT over many years, looking into the subject.

They are one hell of a double-edged sword, these opiates. I'm REALLY torn on whether it makes more sense to just legalize and try to regulate them, and educate as best we can ... or continue along our current prohibition path. There are GREAT cases to be made for both approaches, put it that way.

One aspect I find REALLY fascinating to ponder is just what a BRILLIANT survival strategy it was for the Opium Poppy to evolve to produce a SUPREMELY addictive drug, that would affect a HUGE swath of the already existing critters (at this point, I know it's at least some birds, and most if not all mammals), directly in tune with their natural biology ... creatures that might spread it's seeds or pollen across the planet. It's almost like something outta science fiction (I can think of a particular old Star Trek TOS episode lol) if you think about it.

I kinda think if man had taken a few more million years to come around, we might've found that there were like DOZENS of species of plants that produced opiates naturally by the time we'd come around. I mean, look how many FRUITS there are? And why are there fruits? Spreading the seed, right?

A plant producing opiates is even more genius if you think about it. Of all the RANDOM shit to occur, you know?!?

Crunchy Frog

(26,587 posts)
120. There ARE effective and fairly easy ways to remove the acetaminophen
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 09:05 PM
Mar 2019

from those medications. No reason why anyone should be destroying their livers.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
72. Quite frankly the word toxic is way overused and often in the wrong context.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:55 PM
Mar 2019

Like here for example. How exactly are medical grade opioids toxic? They can cause CNS depression in high doses but that is unlikely to occur in a hospital setting. People get addicted but that has nothing to do with drug toxicity.

obamanut2012

(26,080 posts)
36. Not true for everyone -- MJ/THC works much, much better on me than opioids
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:17 AM
Mar 2019

All "the good stuff" does is make me violently ill, and barely deadens pain. Vaping MJ works much better for me with intense pain, and it also helps me eat.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
73. Okay friend ... if you say so ...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:56 PM
Mar 2019

If you literally get 'violently ill' from an appropriate level of opioids, based on your weight and tolerance, then you're 1 of like 1000 people. The % of people who experience untoward side effects from THC is absolutely just as high (intense paranoia being the most common complaint).

A lot of the effect of either drug has a lot to do with 'what your body is adjusted to'.

Put it this way ... had you never ingested EITHER opioids OR THC, and you went to use one or the other for the very first time ... you'd be about equally likely to 'not enjoy the effect of the drug'. But there's literally 10's of 1000's of studies that prove that opioids are an effective pain-killer, and VERY FEW suggesting, scientifically, that THC is.

If you ever desperately need a root canal, or get, say appendicitis ... both of which I have, and both of which I initially tried smoking a bunch of weed to try to combat the pain for ... give it a try, and let me know how well the pot works out for you.

I'd be willing to bet that you'll be freaking BEGGING for something that actually works ... unless you're able to get the needed surgery within 6-8 hours.

Look, I'm a huge MJ advocate, and I totally believe it's legit medicine for many problems, and it DOES HELP with mild to perhaps medium pain. But THC is not a strong painkiller, I'm sorry, but it's not. Being high on weed may DISTRACT you, and help you 'forget how much it hurts' ... but it's really not much of an analgesic. Aspirin is scientifically proven to work far better, put it that way.

marble falls

(57,102 posts)
49. Because that guy like me hates the effects of opiates. And I let my VA doctors know I use pot ...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:50 AM
Mar 2019

for pain. It allows me to work without pain and I don't use the opiates they give me.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
79. That's awesome that THC works for you in that way, it's certainly a better alternative if it works!
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:17 PM
Mar 2019

But you don't have Stage IV cancer, which is the context of the discussion.

Stage IV almost always means you're going to die, pretty soon ... and you're almost certainly in a great deal of constant pain. You're really unlikely to be 'working' anymore.

So, not quite the same ... just sayin'

As an aside, if it was me, I could work like 100 times more easily on opioids than I could on THC. In fact, I have, literally thousands of times, and accomplished a huge amount of work while doing so. And nobody was any the wiser. This was back, early 2000's.

If I went to work on THC, otoh, my eyes would be like radishes in my head, I'd sit around giggling and eating munchies, everyone would KNOW I'm freaking high off my tree ... and I'd accomplish absolutely nothing because I'd forget what I was doing every 20 seconds.

So ... I guess everyone is different

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
126. Yeah, well, I hear what you're saying ... BUT we don't necessarily have all the facts
Sun Mar 10, 2019, 10:01 AM
Mar 2019

Typically someone in the hospital with stage IV cancer is gonna be on a morphine drip.

This person may not be giving himself the extra shots that you're typically allowed for acute pain every hour or whatever ... but still be on some morphine as a underlying pain reliever.

I mean, this is just a tweet, basically, not a science journal or a court docket ... and the 'witness' ... is dying. He may or may not be 100% reliable.

Dude should be able to have both, or just one, or neither ... I'm 100% in agreement.

But given the situation, it really wasn't a good idea to basically tell the doc 'I (or my family) smuggled/are smuggling in illegal (as of this moment) drugs into the hospital'. THAT is what I meant was not all that bright of a move.

It's not like the Docs are going to do anything differently treatment-wise, because you're on THC. It basically has almost no drug interactions ... or if there ARE ... thanks to our brilliant government policy the past 100 years ... we don't know what they are, cause research has been basically friggin' banned.

marble falls

(57,102 posts)
128. After five bladder cancer surgeries and a partial colon removal 5 yrs, and the method used ...
Sun Mar 10, 2019, 11:36 AM
Mar 2019

to infuse immunotherapy, I have a pretty good grasp of what is and isn't pain and I really don't think I need to have to get to stage four for me to wait for whatever pain treatment a Doctor decides won't violate his preconceived notions of good drugs and bad drugs.

And then we'll talk about my left knee. Broken twice, torn anterior cruciate ligament, torn cartilage from four different incidents in five years.

Not yelling at you, but sometimes what other do for our own good isn't thought out well enough or deep enough.

VA knows from its own studies pot use is tied to lower bladder cancer rates. I believe that study was meant to prove that pot use was actually tied to higher bladder cancer rate like tobacco and second hand tobacco smoke is. I am frank with all my doctors. I tell them all about it if asked. Its got to be in my records. They prescribe narcotics to me. I am almost monthly at Temple and/or Austin and in some of those months weekly and sometimes several times a week. I am a highly monitored individual medically. They know I don't use narcotics, and they certainly can tell if I'm using cannabis or not. No one has ever said anything negative or even very much about it at all.

Those cops were unfreaking necessary. Not yelling at you, yelling at the mook who called in five-0.

PatSeg

(47,496 posts)
13. My reaction as well
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 10:33 AM
Mar 2019

It would seem that these days we actually have more police than we need. After seeing a cop call for back up of eight officers because some guy was picking up trash in his yard while black, I'm thinking we could be over policed.

democratisphere

(17,235 posts)
11. Police must follow the law and answer a complaint.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 10:31 AM
Mar 2019

The bigger question is who is the a**hole that called the police about a person smoking marijuana? I thought the police officers were being very respectful to the patient and his friends and family. Like it or not, the law is the law and if you don't like the law, change it. Meanwhile the police officers must enforce the laws because that is their job.

democratisphere

(17,235 posts)
19. If the police had not answered this complaint, the a**hole that originally complained
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 10:49 AM
Mar 2019

would complain about the police not doing their job. The police are in a no win situation; they must always answer complaints. Most police officers hate to investigate this kind of complaint. They actually don't have a choice to pick and choose; all complaints must be investigated.

hunter

(38,317 posts)
58. Our police always "answer complaints."
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:11 PM
Mar 2019

Sometimes they ask you to file a report on their web page, or if you can't do that, come down to the station and report the alleged crime in person.

They are severely understaffed and don't commonly respond to things like fender-benders, car break-ins, lesser acts of vandalism and theft, and certainly not cancer patients with a stash of THC capsules in the hospital.

I always think twice before calling the police, even for 911 call situations that our police will reliably respond to, because I've seen them shoot people.

If I do call 911 I always explain the situation as calmly and with as much detail as possible.

Sorry, I don't automatically respect cops or the law. I certainly don't respect the cops in this story.

democratisphere

(17,235 posts)
25. Understood.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:01 AM
Mar 2019

Someone complained about a person smoking marijuana. The police must investigate THAT complaint, even if it turns out to be invalid. Wasting everyone's time and upsetting the falsely accused patient.

RandiFan1290

(6,237 posts)
35. Probably after the blood test
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:14 AM
Mar 2019

My sister has a prescription for Marinol and is treated like garbage in the hospital after the blood tests come back.

democratisphere

(17,235 posts)
81. Accusation that a person smoking marijuana in a hospital
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:21 PM
Mar 2019

isn't going to be investigated?! Who are you kidding.

ck4829

(35,077 posts)
125. I had a couple in the store I help run threatening violence, calling my boss racist names...
Sun Mar 10, 2019, 10:01 AM
Mar 2019

Called police to complain, get them out of there, at least three times.

Never showed up, didn't even drive by the place. No follow up. Nothing. We're not out of the way, right by a major road and across the street from the sign naming the part of the city where we're at, so they couldn't have gotten lost.

There is discretion in policing.

democratisphere

(17,235 posts)
127. I believe instead of "discretion", you were dealing
Sun Mar 10, 2019, 10:11 AM
Mar 2019

with an incompetent police department. They should have answered your call for help.

Chin music

(23,002 posts)
29. And hat.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:08 AM
Mar 2019

"Peace Officers." Cancer is one of THE biggest reasons MJ licenses are dispensed. Sad for that guy.

magicarpet

(14,155 posts)
32. Hair fashions by the,...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:12 AM
Mar 2019

.... Kim Jong Un school of barbers and dictators with Fascistic ambitions.

Niagara

(7,627 posts)
84. Looks like a standard American military haircut.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:30 PM
Mar 2019

And no, I'm not defending the officer(s) harassing a cancer patient. However, this haircut is standard military style.

Niagara

(7,627 posts)
108. Yes
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:10 PM
Mar 2019

It's not uncommon for police officers to have been enlisted in the military. They often come from the Marine Corp.


Chin music

(23,002 posts)
27. Pro life folks strike again.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:04 AM
Mar 2019

Such compassion. Another compassionate conservative helping a dying citizen taxpayer.
Big ups to the Dr. She did a pretty good job.

Chin music

(23,002 posts)
31. "If you don't have anything to hide" Tell that to the trump family.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:11 AM
Mar 2019

"We aren't going to arrest you, just give you a citation"...Just what someone dying needs to deal with so they don't pass w a 'dope' charge.
This is what happens when OTHER people "commit crimes' in full view. Un-real.
What's next..."stop resisting" They said all the standard phrases.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
52. And what if they had found something?
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 11:53 AM
Mar 2019

Let's say the patient did have a joint hidden in the room? Anyone want to bet the over/under on whether his sentence would have been more or less than Paul Manafort's?

nolabear

(41,984 posts)
78. They said they'd write a citation.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:17 PM
Mar 2019

I’d hope jail wouldn’t be involved.

My heart breaks for this guy. The stress alone is terrible for him.

Kurt V.

(5,624 posts)
103. I'm not singling you out, but I'm far enough down the thread to see this common theme.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 03:00 PM
Mar 2019

this could happen ANYPLACE in the country. missourian here.

IADEMO2004

(5,555 posts)
62. Police should walk in look at the ceiling and report seeing nothing case closed.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:16 PM
Mar 2019

Officer's next blood test could show shoe is on the other foot.

Be human man.

 

UniteFightBack

(8,231 posts)
63. The officers I believe could help themselves a great deal if they just said I'M SORRY we got a
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:16 PM
Mar 2019

complaint and we have to do this. EMPATHIZE with the person whether they friggin agree or not. Yes I'm sorry we have to do this....whether they feel that or NOT! It goes a long way.

I spend all day long apologizing for things I had nothing to do with and people like it and it makes them feel like you give a shit.

It's not that hard to do in any contact with any kind of 'customers' you say sorry when they feel they are being mistreated. FUCK!

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
70. I did hear one of the investigators say they would just issue a citation if they found any.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:37 PM
Mar 2019

There was a time, they'd lock the poor dying patient up. Hope they didn't find anything, or if they did just ignored it.

Dying people should get a pass on just about everything.

calimary

(81,304 posts)
71. Oh for the Love of God...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 12:40 PM
Mar 2019

Shaking down a cancer patient - in the patient ‘s HOSPITAL ROOM!?!?!?!????

What an outrage!

nolabear

(41,984 posts)
76. My son has a chronic issue that lands him in hospital sometimes.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:05 PM
Mar 2019

It’s called Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome and basically causes vomiting that is violent and prolonged enough to require he go inpatient for a couple of days. We’re in Seattle and the hospitals are very crowded, so they have to find him a bed where they can. The best is the oncology ward because they actually let the ambulatory patients who want to go outside and smoke or vape if it helps with the horrible chemo nausea. It helps him too when it’s not so bad he has to be knocked out to break the cycle.

We don’t really have a United States any more. We’re a conglomerate of very, very different ones.

Btw the feds are ignoring us so far.

Niagara

(7,627 posts)
90. I'm sorry to hear this about your son, Nolabear
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:39 PM
Mar 2019
We don’t really have a United States any more. We’re a conglomerate of very, very different ones.


It does seem that way.

nolabear

(41,984 posts)
98. Thanks. The other side is that the ER often thinks it's pot that causes it.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 02:33 PM
Mar 2019

There’s a syndrome called Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome that comes from extreme pot usage and we have to fight the ER (same one he’s been seen at probably a hundred times over the years) half the time in spite of his records containing specific instructions from his specialist and that it started when he was three years old. He’s early thirties now and is sometimes treated very badly. It’s common with CVS sufferers. I try to be a calm advocate for his sake since he literally can not communicate when in an episode but I have wanted to go upside quite a few heads when they flat out don’t follow the protocol or disrespect him.

Sorry about the vent. It felt good though. 😄

SWBTATTReg

(22,133 posts)
94. Just FYI, medical marijuana was approved on the ballot in Nov. 2018 and will be rolled out...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 01:58 PM
Mar 2019

in MO July 2019. Probably unfortunately too late for the Bolivar MO person. IMHO, this police officer didn't have to search this patient's room either, it's not like some major crime spree was happening. I seriously question the use of limited police resources in a matter such as this and if I was the town officials, I would seriously question the use of limited resources to such a relative petty crime.

In some jurisdictions, the decriminalization of pot has occurred (STLMO, KCMO, perhaps other localities). The major cities of MO are, or have taken steps to strip away this mantra of criminality around pot. Bolivar happens to be located in a 'bible belt' portion of MO.

onethatcares

(16,172 posts)
97. 2016 the people of Floriduh approved medical marijuana by referendum
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 02:19 PM
Mar 2019

since then we've learned that we don't know what we're talking about or what we wanted when we voted.

pill, oils, etc were approved by Prick Scott in 2017.

On March 3, 2019 the Fla Senate approved the use of smokable marijuana by medical patients, the Fla House has yet to vote on it.


What a bunch of shit over a plant.

Oh, they, the legislature, wants to make it harder for home rule ordinances to be passed.

SWBTATTReg

(22,133 posts)
100. I suspect too, that in MO, despite the ballot referendem being approved on med. pot, they'll ...
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 02:41 PM
Mar 2019

find a way to alter the language allowing it in MO in some shape form or fashion (to highly restrict it or forbid it). They done this before on several other voter approved ballot initiatives (MO has repugs in cntl of both houses of the legislature). What gets me is that MO has an amendment called the Hancock Amendment which highly restricts the imposition of more taxes by the state, thus legalizing pot could bring in a lot of extra funds for MO infrastructure projects.

onethatcares

(16,172 posts)
112. yeah, in order to meet the requirements
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 08:13 PM
Mar 2019

to appear on the ballot, the amendment had to go to the fla state supreme court and be a one item change with wording approved by them.

It met all those requirements.

then the legislature got involved by telling us that they would define the meanings of the amendments wording.

Meanwhile they are disallowing individual cities the right (home rule) to modify punishment for possession, restrict firearm carrying, and other applicable items.

it's a freaking joke show.

Good luck with MO. You'll need it. BTW. John Morgan of Morgan and Morgan was instrumental in both writing the amendment and paying for people to collect signatures to get it on the ballot. Hope you have the same or similar pockets.

Peace out to you my brother.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
110. Note that the white cop is sporting a "fashy" (fascist) haircut.
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:25 PM
Mar 2019

Buzzed to the skin on the sides, also called a “high-and-tight.” It’s a popular style, but it’s *really* popular with the white nationalist crowd.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.esquire.com/style/news/amp51116/high-and-tight-fascism-neo-nazis-white-supremacists/
This Wildly Popular Haircut Has a Serious Neo-Nazi Problem
Hipster? Or Hitler?
ESQUIRE, August 15, 2017
By Scott Christain
<snip>
Sadly, though, the haircut's fascists origins have come back to haunt us. A photo posted on Twitter from a recent conference of The National Policy Institute, an alt-right, white supremacist "think tank" (yes, those are to be read as sarcastic air quotes) showcased a whole cadre of high-and-tights.
<snip>
Basically it's a warning to us all then: The next time a good-looking guy in a high-and-tight offers to sell you a craft beer, make sure he isn't trying to also sell you a dose of unabridged hate.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
119. Not a Hippa violation
Sat Mar 9, 2019, 09:05 PM
Mar 2019

Folks in general tend to overestimate the reach of HIPPA. It's not a blanket "everything that goes on in the hospital is a secret" law.

It could be a hippa violation if a Hippa covered individual (i.e. hospital employee) reported that he was using THC as medicine.

But if it's reported as "I smelled weed" or "I saw weed", then it's no different than any other complaint about illegal activity.

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