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Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 04:17 AM Feb 2019

Is it time to legalize prostitution?

There are a TON of posts about the Patriot's owner and possible higher ups going down in the Florida sex sting. I responded to some, and I have seen other posts where they are talking about human trafficking which is a horrendous thing and should be stopped. What I don't think I have seen is a discussion about legalizing and regulating prostitution.

I think that prostitution is definitively a self determination issue. As long as a person can consent (age, cognitive ability, etc..) what they do with their bodies should be their choice, including selling sexual favors. I also think that as with ANY transaction, there should be protections for any party engaging in that transaction.

The US has always had a very Puritanical view of sex and has denigrated women for trying to control their sexuality. I think that there is a love/hate relationship that many American men have with sex. They love sex but many hate the idea of women being assertive about their sexuality and sexual pleasure.

I think that taking the illegality out of sex work and building in protections to the industry would help to decrease trafficking and hopefully remove some of the stigma around sex.

101 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Is it time to legalize prostitution? (Original Post) Caliman73 Feb 2019 OP
Having had close friends who worked as escorts musicblind Feb 2019 #1
no, sexual freedom is about consensual sex because one WANTS to have sex with someone JI7 Feb 2019 #2
So all work is prostitution? Caliman73 Feb 2019 #6
no, fixing cars and digging ditches for money is not the same as having sex with someone for money JI7 Feb 2019 #9
Sex work is work. littlemissmartypants Feb 2019 #31
The political situation is worse than this qualitative analysis janterry Feb 2019 #42
Thanks for sharing the blog. Did you read any of the abstracts? littlemissmartypants Feb 2019 #51
As a second wave feminist janterry Feb 2019 #55
When you are hungry and hurting there's not much littlemissmartypants Feb 2019 #60
Yup, + 1000 janterry Feb 2019 #38
Your OP and these posts of yours are just so gross obamanut2012 Feb 2019 #57
None of that is so personal treestar Feb 2019 #76
And nobody by WANTS to be a janitor either. crazytown Feb 2019 #17
most people would rather be a janitor than have sex with guys like Trump and Kraft for money JI7 Feb 2019 #26
Not everyone gets a kick out of cleaning toilets nt crazytown Feb 2019 #30
there are many other jobs and fucking guys like trump and kraft is worse than cleaning toilets JI7 Feb 2019 #33
'Cleaning Toilets' was a reference to Trump :) crazytown Feb 2019 #64
i know people who clean toilets and they financially independent JI7 Feb 2019 #50
'Cleaning Toilets' was a snarky reference to Trump. crazytown Feb 2019 #65
+1 treestar Feb 2019 #79
I agree Dorian Gray Feb 2019 #54
+1 treestar Feb 2019 #75
Not now loyalsister Feb 2019 #3
That is an interesting take. Caliman73 Feb 2019 #8
US culture has not been union friendly for decades loyalsister Feb 2019 #71
And their current situation isn't damaging and exploitable? Lancero Feb 2019 #12
Obviously it is loyalsister Feb 2019 #70
Kraft's ugly old ass being able to buy sex is about sexual freedom for women ? JI7 Feb 2019 #4
Interesting... Caliman73 Feb 2019 #5
Long overdue. Behind the Aegis Feb 2019 #7
Then there is the issue of some low iq women being exploited. That applegrove Feb 2019 #10
Yes. There would be a great many things that would need to be worked out. Caliman73 Feb 2019 #11
Yes, the devil is certainly in the details Sherman A1 Feb 2019 #15
Yes, a large percentage of prostitutes are on drugs. LuvNewcastle Feb 2019 #18
+1000 smirkymonkey Feb 2019 #67
Looks like there will be a new rash of law enforcement crackdowns instead. Kablooie Feb 2019 #13
I support legalization but those women would have still been trafficked. RandySF Feb 2019 #14
It's legal in Australia, well regulated and widely accepted crazytown Feb 2019 #16
When they legalized it, Australia had to create a special police force to deal with the explosion Squinch Feb 2019 #20
No a task force to deal with the trafficking they Uncovered crazytown Feb 2019 #27
Sure. Because no one ever knew it existed before. It was legalized and all of a sudden Squinch Feb 2019 #28
I lived through it, did you? crazytown Feb 2019 #32
Lived through what? Squinch Feb 2019 #34
The process of legalisation. crazytown Feb 2019 #44
Gosh. That makes you an expert on that new police force that had to be created to deal with Squinch Feb 2019 #45
And your experience is? crazytown Feb 2019 #48
I think you are the one dismissing real world reports. Squinch Feb 2019 #49
Fine. Dont take my world for it. crazytown Feb 2019 #61
Yes. The legal prostitutes are very healthy. And at the same time, the country is being Squinch Feb 2019 #62
No it is not. crazytown Feb 2019 #66
You are correct on Australian immigration policy, crazytown. roamer65 Feb 2019 #93
Many average day folks become sexworkers in Australia to supplement their income. roamer65 Feb 2019 #83
a "healthy attitude towards sex" is not an issue here treestar Feb 2019 #84
I believe crazytown is saying they are Australian and/or lived in Australia during... DRoseDARs Feb 2019 #94
+1 roamer65 Feb 2019 #96
Not respectable argumentation to try to stuff words into opponent's mouth. Nor is binary thinking. Bernardo de La Paz Feb 2019 #72
I'd say it is... TreasonousBastard Feb 2019 #19
When wealthy women choose to walk the streets in appreciable numbers, Maru Kitteh Feb 2019 #21
This. Squinch Feb 2019 #23
Excellent point. nt littlemissmartypants Feb 2019 #36
100% this -- is is "choice" because of economics obamanut2012 Feb 2019 #58
+1000 smirkymonkey Feb 2019 #68
That logic is as useless as saying ... Bernardo de La Paz Feb 2019 #80
+1 treestar Feb 2019 #82
Every effing time a trafficking story comes out, we have to have this conversation again Squinch Feb 2019 #22
Freedom and privacy, just like abortion. safeinOhio Feb 2019 #24
And if you're a 14 year old girl being trafficked, which does not stop with legalization but Squinch Feb 2019 #29
Legal means regulated. safeinOhio Feb 2019 #37
Here. Squinch Feb 2019 #43
it's actually a pretty complicated issue Locrian Feb 2019 #69
do you have any figures showing child exploitation is lowered treestar Feb 2019 #87
Prostitution is not equivalent to abortion EffieBlack Feb 2019 #74
It's not the same treestar Feb 2019 #85
No janterry Feb 2019 #25
One of the arguments against safeinOhio Feb 2019 #39
Again, as I posted above janterry Feb 2019 #47
Here is a plan that works in Nepal safeinOhio Feb 2019 #59
It is a woman's "right" to be a prostitute? treestar Feb 2019 #88
geez just legalize it... samnsara Feb 2019 #35
And Dorian Gray Feb 2019 #53
77 countries have legalized prostitution Brainstormy Feb 2019 #40
And Australia. roamer65 Feb 2019 #78
Sex work is work and it's less about sex and work but littlemissmartypants Feb 2019 #41
I'm of roughly the same opinion on this as I am regarding illicit drugs. ForgedCrank Feb 2019 #46
Criminalise all BUT the prostitutes. OnDoutside Feb 2019 #52
THIS is really the answer. But we both know it will never happen. Squinch Feb 2019 #63
Yep. Traditionally it was illegal because of the morality of men treestar Feb 2019 #90
Using an event that entails human trafficking victims of "jack shacks" to make your point obamanut2012 Feb 2019 #56
No. ismnotwasm Feb 2019 #73
Legalization is really about getting men off the hook for paying for aex EffieBlack Feb 2019 #77
+1 treestar Feb 2019 #91
That is a good point. Caliman73 Feb 2019 #98
Absolutely. I've been saying this for the last 20 years. This would benefit women. nt UniteFightBack Feb 2019 #81
I vote Snackshack Feb 2019 #86
Correct. Legalize, regulate and tax it. roamer65 Feb 2019 #95
Wel said! Snackshack Feb 2019 #99
In abstract, an argument can be made for it. mn9driver Feb 2019 #89
Yes, like a hundred years ago. former9thward Feb 2019 #92
. LadyHawkAZ Feb 2019 #97
Long past time Lordquinton Feb 2019 #100
No. 50 Shades Of Blue Feb 2019 #101

musicblind

(4,484 posts)
1. Having had close friends who worked as escorts
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 04:22 AM
Feb 2019

I agree.

For example, shutting down escort sites makes sex work far more dangerous.

JI7

(89,250 posts)
2. no, sexual freedom is about consensual sex because one WANTS to have sex with someone
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 04:23 AM
Feb 2019

not because they need to for their economic survival.

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
6. So all work is prostitution?
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 04:35 AM
Feb 2019

We all consent to work but I am sure that not many of us would be working our jobs if our economic survival didn't depend on it.

Work is work. Some people fix cars, some dig ditches, some program computers, some people don't feel there is anything wrong with sex for money.

Sexual freedom is about using your sexuality in ANY way that you want so long as it is not harming anyone else. When you assume that all sex workers are "being exploited" that feeds into the idea that somehow sex is wrong and women need to be protected from themselves. The stigma about sex work comes from that puritanical thinking that says women must be chaste and sex should only be for love and marriage.

JI7

(89,250 posts)
9. no, fixing cars and digging ditches for money is not the same as having sex with someone for money
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 04:42 AM
Feb 2019

littlemissmartypants

(22,691 posts)
31. Sex work is work.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:30 AM
Feb 2019

Here's some research on that.


1. Sex Work Research: Methodological and Ethical Challenges

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0886260504274340

2. Prostitution Stigma and Its Effect on the Working Conditions, Personal Lives, and Health of Sex Workers

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499.2017.1393652?journalCode=hjsr20

3. Decreasing Human Trafficking through Sex Work Decriminalization

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/decreasing-human-trafficking-through-sex-work-decriminalization/2017-01

If it isn't a discussion worthy topic, based on laissez-faire replies, why are there so many scholarly articles on the subject?

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,34&as_vis=1&q=%22sex+work%22+scholarly+articles,+list

I can assure you, whether paid in groceries, coin or in room and board as a husband, wife, SO or B/GF, if you are not the one with the power and control in the "working relationship" it's worse than work and indentured servitude combined.

Nothing is worse than having sex with someone you neither love, care for, like nor respect. Especially if you don't like the person to start with (or never did) and this kind of sex, which becomes work, happens in billions of boudoirs every day, worldwide. None of those conditions; like, love or caring, are required to turn the sex into work or exclude it from the definition of work.

The condition of the equitable position of power is the only condition that really matters the most in the definition of work. Plus, I would venture to guess there's more sex being had that falls into the 'work' category than the 'not work' category, and that's just a sad, unsexy fact.

littlemissmartypants

(22,691 posts)
51. Thanks for sharing the blog. Did you read any of the abstracts?
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:05 AM
Feb 2019

My point was not to reduce the workers to faceless numbers, who are not all cis female, but to try to elevate the conversation beyond knee jerk reactions. It's an expansive topic that is as much a mystery as it is dangerous. Thousands of words by thousands of people have been written about it, so I will never claim to be anyone who really knows anything about it. I know it's been debated ad infinitum. But most of all it's about living, breathing, soulful beings. That's something we should think more about, for sure.

 

janterry

(4,429 posts)
55. As a second wave feminist
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:13 AM
Feb 2019

I have studied a little about it - though it's not my personal field of expertise. I find the statistics of those countries that legalize it - sobering. And it refutes the idea that we can sanitize it as 'industry.'

I've worked with women who have prostituted - a little - in the prisons (they were there for drug related charges, so it was a biased subset - if you will). Among that population, it was one of the things they hated the most, were the most shamed by - and whispered about, if they told. These are women that have endured a lot - and lost even more. For this population, prostitution meant that they were on the lowest rung of the ladder (of their addiction, and their life). If they told another addict, it was short-hand for the fact that they had fallen so far that their life was in obvious pieces.

Sort of what the guys would call a 'sloppy addict' (their term, not mine)

littlemissmartypants

(22,691 posts)
60. When you are hungry and hurting there's not much
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:31 AM
Feb 2019

You won't do or consider doing if you have no choice. I am so thankful that I got a good education. I can only imagine how hard it was for you to do that work. Thank goodness you were able to win their trust, they probably needed someone to talk to.

 

janterry

(4,429 posts)
38. Yup, + 1000
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:39 AM
Feb 2019

The subjugation of women and the exploitation of women's bodies
I'm sure it's next. But it's to our (as women) own detriment.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
76. None of that is so personal
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 01:43 PM
Feb 2019

No matter what else you do. Even modeling can be done without anyone touching you. And it has nothing to do with puritanism. It's being able to pick sex partners for sex, not because you need the money.

crazytown

(7,277 posts)
17. And nobody by WANTS to be a janitor either.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 06:30 AM
Feb 2019

Nobody WANTS to flip burgers. Few if any people would want to do unskilled work without getting paid.

Sex workers can be well paid. Janitors, not so much.

JI7

(89,250 posts)
50. i know people who clean toilets and they financially independent
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:05 AM
Feb 2019

and they have sex with guys who they WANT to have sex with.

crazytown

(7,277 posts)
65. 'Cleaning Toilets' was a snarky reference to Trump.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:41 AM
Feb 2019

I am not trying to demean minimum wage work, only saying people do not WANT to do it.

Dorian Gray

(13,496 posts)
54. I agree
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:12 AM
Feb 2019

Though I think when it comes to prostitution, prostitutes shouldn't be arrested. If a place of their employment is raided, the women should be asked if they are forced into it.

Outlaw the middle men. The pimps. The madams. Those who organize it.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
3. Not now
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 04:25 AM
Feb 2019

Unions have been busted and employers have too much control over the lives of workers. This is not an environment that I think would be anything but damaging and exploitative for sex workers.

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
8. That is an interesting take.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 04:40 AM
Feb 2019

Perhaps that could be a new unionizing idea. I do understand the concern however.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
71. US culture has not been union friendly for decades
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 01:31 PM
Feb 2019

Expecting a resurgence in what could be a highly profitable industry is naive.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
12. And their current situation isn't damaging and exploitable?
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 05:20 AM
Feb 2019

Pimps are free to exploit their workers however they wish, given the threat of jail over the head if they ever go to the cops.

Circumstances are bad for workers in general in todays market sure, and while hardly ideal for the general worker it'd still be a improvement for sex workers.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
70. Obviously it is
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 01:29 PM
Feb 2019

I'm saying legalizing it risks legalizing exploitation. Mainstreaming and enabling what pimps already do to women could easily bring it to more women.

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
5. Interesting...
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 04:28 AM
Feb 2019

What leads you to ask that question? Did you read the post?

The question is about legalizing prostitution.

Behind the Aegis

(53,959 posts)
7. Long overdue.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 04:39 AM
Feb 2019

Since it is not legal, sex workers are easily exploited and cannot take advantage of the law when they are victimized. It is also not easy to regulate when it is underground and hides in the shadows.

applegrove

(118,677 posts)
10. Then there is the issue of some low iq women being exploited. That
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 04:49 AM
Feb 2019

is how local police in Ottawa frame the issue. What happens if some developmentally delayed is got into the business? I'm all for safe sites and women keeping their own money. They would have to be heavily regulated though. And of course drugs. They enable drug habits. That would need to be regulated too.

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
11. Yes. There would be a great many things that would need to be worked out.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 05:11 AM
Feb 2019

Like I said in my OP, the ability to consent is paramount. Exploitation is definitely something that would need to be mitigated heavily.

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
15. Yes, the devil is certainly in the details
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 06:21 AM
Feb 2019

I agree with the thoughts on Unionization within a legal industry. That in and of itself could very well take care of many of those devilish details. The legalization and regulation of this activity is long overdue in my opinion.

LuvNewcastle

(16,846 posts)
18. Yes, a large percentage of prostitutes are on drugs.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 06:59 AM
Feb 2019

The reason a lot of them get into prostitution in the first place is because they were abused at home, physically or sexually or both. They run away and get into prostitution so they can feed themselves and end up getting exploited by a pimp who gets them to start using drugs. It's an ugly life. Not too many women from more privileged backgrounds get involved in prostitution because they have other, better choices. That's what these women need, more choices, and drug rehab and counseling.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
67. +1000
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 09:07 AM
Feb 2019

Let's face it, there are very few people who become prostitutes because they are making healthy choices for themselves. It is usually entered into out of desperation.

Kablooie

(18,634 posts)
13. Looks like there will be a new rash of law enforcement crackdowns instead.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 05:33 AM
Feb 2019

Now that asian massage parlors are in the news, after reading a few articles, I predict it will be the new popular focus for law enforcement. it will be the new fad to eliminate all massage parlor sex.

crazytown

(7,277 posts)
16. It's legal in Australia, well regulated and widely accepted
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 06:27 AM
Feb 2019

The regulation of legal enterprise makes it easier to root out trafficking.

Squinch

(50,950 posts)
20. When they legalized it, Australia had to create a special police force to deal with the explosion
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:10 AM
Feb 2019

of human trafficking they experienced.

crazytown

(7,277 posts)
27. No a task force to deal with the trafficking they Uncovered
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:24 AM
Feb 2019

Legalisation of the industry brought criminal operations out into the open. A casino may not be a money laundering outfit for the mob, but an illegal casino is easy to blackmail.

(0h yeah - and no more police were involved - they moved the cops who were previously charged with shutting down prostitution into apprehending people traffickers)

Squinch

(50,950 posts)
28. Sure. Because no one ever knew it existed before. It was legalized and all of a sudden
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:26 AM
Feb 2019

people realized it was rampant. But not before.

You keep telling yourself that.

crazytown

(7,277 posts)
44. The process of legalisation.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:45 AM
Feb 2019

The debates, the church groups, feminists for and against, sex workers telling their stories, the shock jocks warning that family values would be finished. It’s like the legalisation of anything, there are always those who seek to exploit people’s fears.

Within weeks of legalisation, the arrests of sex traffickers began in earnest.

Squinch

(50,950 posts)
45. Gosh. That makes you an expert on that new police force that had to be created to deal with
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:47 AM
Feb 2019

the explosion in human trafficking.

crazytown

(7,277 posts)
48. And your experience is?
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:53 AM
Feb 2019

You posit a hypothetical case, then dismiss real world reports. You know so much about sex trafficking first hand right. And cannibis is a gateway drug to smack. OK. Fine. Bye.

crazytown

(7,277 posts)
61. Fine. Dont take my world for it.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:34 AM
Feb 2019

Nee South Wales has 23 years experience of legal prostitution.

This University Report was presented to and accepted by a Conservative State Goverment 2012?

The decriminalisation of sex work in NSW – combined with a free market approach – has resulted in one of the healthiest sex industries ever documented, a report to NSW Health has found.

International authorities regard the NSW regulatory framework as best practice – the result of decades of partnership by government, community organisations, health workers and researchers, according to the report, The Sex Industry in New South Wales. ...

Lead author, Professor Basil Donovan from the Kirby Institute at the University of New South Wales, said the report showed that any moves to reintroduce bans or licensing of sex work would be a backward step.

Jurisdictions that try to ban or license sex work always lose track as most of the industry slides into the shadows. Prostitution laws are the greatest allies of the exploiters. In NSW, by contrast, health and community workers have comprehensive access to and surveillance of the sex industry. That access has resulted in the healthiest sex industry ever documented.”

Decriminalisation of the industry in 1995 led to a dramatic reduction in police corruption and sex worker exploitation. “Is there still a ragged edge to the NSW sex industry? Of course, but the size of that ragged edge is much smaller than anywhere else,” Professor Donovan said.


https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/health/sex-work-nsw-healthiest-world

Free market they means, no licensing, central register of prostitutes. Health includes, STDs, substance abuse, and mental health. For Example: -

Liberal laws, combined with structural and prosecutorial anti- corruption measures in the police force, widespread AIDS education, improved funding for STD services, the establishment of outreach Health Services and funding for prostitutes organisations appear to have resulted in certain positive changes: a reduction in the public order problems associated with the industry; a reduction in police corruption; a decentralisation of the industry; the proliferation of small groups of independent workers; an increase in the use of condoms and other safer sex practices; a reduction in the prevalence of STDs amongst prostitutes; and an awareness amongst prostitutes and the general community of the measures necessary to assist in HIV prevention.

https://aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/proceedings/downloads/16-egger.pdf

Squinch

(50,950 posts)
62. Yes. The legal prostitutes are very healthy. And at the same time, the country is being
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:37 AM
Feb 2019

flooded with illegal prostitutes. Evidenced by the creation of a WHOLE NEW POLICE FORCE that had to be created to combat it.

Also, see post 47 for a different take on what is going on in Australia.

crazytown

(7,277 posts)
66. No it is not.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:48 AM
Feb 2019

In fact Australia has an infamous and obsessive record of dealing with would be undocumented immigrants. Refugees are imprioned in offshore concentration camps in Narru. Every boat is turned back. Every passsnger arriving by plane questioned. People from South East Asian countries can expect to be taken off for an interview. As Trump said, Australia is worse than him.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
93. You are correct on Australian immigration policy, crazytown.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 02:05 PM
Feb 2019

Even as an American citizen, I had to have a visa to get in for a vacation. No visa, no entry.

Australia is extremely selective on who they allow as landed immigrants. If you don’t fit by their formula, you don’t get the status.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
83. Many average day folks become sexworkers in Australia to supplement their income.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 01:50 PM
Feb 2019

They are healthy and it helps put food on the table or pay the mortgage.

Australia has a healthier attitude toward sex and it shows on the streets of their cities. I never noticed street sex workers there when I visited in 2001.

NSW made a wise choice.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
84. a "healthy attitude towards sex" is not an issue here
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 01:51 PM
Feb 2019

not for women. They aren't doing that because of this "healthy attitude." It only benefits the johns.

 

DRoseDARs

(6,810 posts)
94. I believe crazytown is saying they are Australian and/or lived in Australia during...
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 02:07 PM
Feb 2019

...their national debate about legalization. Probably in a far better position to know of what they speak of Australian politics.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,002 posts)
72. Not respectable argumentation to try to stuff words into opponent's mouth. Nor is binary thinking.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 01:37 PM
Feb 2019

There is nothing in the member's post that states what you posit or could be used to conclude that the poster takes the extreme and bogus position you try to pin on them.

Nor is the poster guilty of the binary all-or-nothing white-or-black zero-or-one thinking your post exhibits: "no one ever knew it existed before".

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
19. I'd say it is...
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:01 AM
Feb 2019

For a pretty good discussion of this, and the key to the chart, go to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_law

Basically-- green is legal, red is illegal, and the other colors are in-between.



Note the wide swaths of red in places many of us would not like to live for other reasons. They are mostly authoritarian and puritanical states. I am not sure why Japan insists on keeping it illegal, but the Japanese have many customs unfamiliar to us.

The Dutch have periodically been overcome by a feverous morality and try to shut down Amsterdam's red light district, but it is a quite profitable tourist attraction, so the moralists don't get too far. That may have changed recently.

Germany, always so efficient, had for years managed its sex trade in large buildings with no hint on the outside what was going on on the inside.

Both countries had long decided that some people were willing to buy sex, and some to sell it, so it was perfectly reasonable to have a properly regulated marketplace.

Maru Kitteh

(28,340 posts)
21. When wealthy women choose to walk the streets in appreciable numbers,
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:13 AM
Feb 2019

I might consider buying some bullshit argument about "choice."





Bernardo de La Paz

(49,002 posts)
80. That logic is as useless as saying ...
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 01:45 PM
Feb 2019

That logic is as useless as saying "When wealthy women choose to go to back alley abortion clinics I might consider buying some bullshit argument about 'choice.' "

There are a number of women, some famous, who got wealthy by choosing to provide sexual services for pricy fees.

Now, that is a much truer and cogent connection between wealthy women and choice.

Wealthy women and men typically do not clean toilets by choice. Does that mean you believe that people cleaning toilets are not competent adults capable of making choices about how they make their living?

Your post also exhibits the sexist notion that only women are prostitutes.

Squinch

(50,950 posts)
22. Every effing time a trafficking story comes out, we have to have this conversation again
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:15 AM
Feb 2019

where we pretend that the countries where prostitution is legal have not seen an explosion in trafficking.

Read a study. Admit the truth to yourself. Prostitution is not nice girls who like sex and are working their way through college.

If you have used a prostitute, the overwhelming likelihood is that she was being coerced to it using either violence or addiction or both. If you have used a prostitute, you have contributed to the exploitation of a fellow human being.

And legalization does not stop trafficking. It increases it.

safeinOhio

(32,686 posts)
24. Freedom and privacy, just like abortion.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:17 AM
Feb 2019

If you are against abortion, don't get one. If you are against prostitution, don't buy or sell sex. In the meantime, make it safe for both.

Squinch

(50,950 posts)
29. And if you're a 14 year old girl being trafficked, which does not stop with legalization but
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:27 AM
Feb 2019

rather increases, I guess that's just you living your best life of choice.

safeinOhio

(32,686 posts)
37. Legal means regulated.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:38 AM
Feb 2019

Do you have any figures on child exploitation in legal, regulated states? While regulated may not end underage, just like legal abortion does not end all deaths, but in countries where it is legal and regulated, it is much less a problem. Legal brothels can be inspected, illegal ones are hidden and move around. Health and age checks are not possible now.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
69. it's actually a pretty complicated issue
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 09:13 AM
Feb 2019

From the link posed in reference to issues with increased trafficking.

While trafficking inflows may be lower where prostitution is criminalized, there may be severe repercussions for those working in the industry. For example, criminalizing prostitution penalizes sex workers rather than the people who earn most of the profits (pimps and traffickers).

“The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking,” the researchers state. “However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes — at least those legally employed — if prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky ‘freedom of choice’ issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.”


https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/

safeinOhio

(32,686 posts)
39. One of the arguments against
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:41 AM
Feb 2019

legal abortions by the Church too. Must take away rights to protect the women/.

 

janterry

(4,429 posts)
47. Again, as I posted above
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:49 AM
Feb 2019

Countries that have legalized it, have found that illegal trafficking has risen - as has the abuse of women. Brothels of women that are sold as slaves is a problem.

https://realforwomen.wordpress.com/impacts-on-women/prostitution-industry/countries-with-legal-sex-industry-impacts-on-women/
Australia

– Debt-bondage in NSW brothel network via student visa traps. Pimps evade police with illegal pop-up “massage parlours”: Sydney massage centre challenges illegal brothel claim, Sydney Morning Herald, February 21, 2016
– Melbourne sex worker ring leads to jail, news.com.au, December 11, 2015
–Sex inquiry recommends greater powers for police to tackle brothel crime, Brisbane Times, November 7, 2015

– It’s time to clean up prostitution in NSW: “The community and individual damage wrought by prostitution in Sydney is now apparent to everyone, even foreign governments (South Korea sent an emissary to the state in 2010, to investigate the trafficking of its female citizens). NSW Police this year publicly admitted outlaw motorcycle gangs had links with at least 40 brothels in the state; a sex worker was set alight a few years ago; groups of women have been found debt-bonded to brothels; and individual women have been found dead in hotels.

“The victims are often foreign. In 2012, researchers identified more than 50 per cent of their research sample in approved brothels in metropolitan Sydney as being of Asian or other non-English speaking country background, and nearly 45 per cent of these respondents as speaking only “poor” or “fair” English.” Dr Caroline Norma, lecturer in the School of Global, Urban and Social Studies at RMIT University, member of the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women Australia, Brisbane Times, November 10, 2015

safeinOhio

(32,686 posts)
59. Here is a plan that works in Nepal
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:21 AM
Feb 2019

Turn Victims into Empowered Entrepreneurs and Business Owners
 
Pop Quiz: Which Free Gift Has the Greatest Chance to Liberate a Woman from Human Trafficking in Nepal?

https://www.friendsofwpcnepal.org/job-training-solve-human-trafficking/?

samnsara

(17,622 posts)
35. geez just legalize it...
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:35 AM
Feb 2019

...if that old guy can get it up for a prosti then good for him. Hes been a widow for a few years now..leave him be.

Dorian Gray

(13,496 posts)
53. And
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:11 AM
Feb 2019

screw all those women who were forced to move to that spa, live there, work there, and have sex there? Bc they didn't have a choice in the matter.

littlemissmartypants

(22,691 posts)
41. Sex work is work and it's less about sex and work but
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:43 AM
Feb 2019

More about power and control. It's not gender specific either. Interesting post, Caliman73.

ForgedCrank

(1,782 posts)
46. I'm of roughly the same opinion on this as I am regarding illicit drugs.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:47 AM
Feb 2019

People are going to do it regardless of the law. I don't necessarily condone any of it, in fact I highly discourage all of it from a personal perspective, but that's mixing my personal opinion with law and individual freedoms.
I think the legalization of prostitution would likely bring about a lot of positives IF done properly.
In other words, don't allow government to get too involved. Obviously, monitoring, etc is the goal to make things safer, but if it is done how pot has been in the west where local governments tax the ever-livin' shit out of it, you don't kill off the black market, which would be one of the goals of legalization. The legal marketplace needs to be more attractive in both scale and economy (as odd as that sounds regarding this subject).
Obviously, some permit requirements and fees would be necessary to cover the overhead of state oversight such as medical screening and certifications, etc, but it has to be a utilitarian approach or it will never be successful.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
90. Yep. Traditionally it was illegal because of the morality of men
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 02:02 PM
Feb 2019

Now it ought to be illegal because of the exploitation of the women. This is where all that argument about being "Puritanical" not to favor women having no better choice than to sell sex. It is "liberating" the men, not the women.

obamanut2012

(26,079 posts)
56. Using an event that entails human trafficking victims of "jack shacks" to make your point
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 08:13 AM
Feb 2019

Is REALLY really gross. Just stop.

Conflating well-paid escorts who make the decision to do this vs. human trafficking victims or women desperate to walk the streets because they need rent and food for their kids OR women walking the streets controlled by pimps is even more gross.

See that paragraph? See how little agency the women involved have?

So no, it shoulnd't be legalized except for certain escort services that are highly, highly regulated. And you should not discuss this by using Asian women who are trafficking victims as the impetus.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
77. Legalization is really about getting men off the hook for paying for aex
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 01:44 PM
Feb 2019

It has nothing to do with economic freedom of "choice" for women and certainly has nothing to do with reducing trafficking and exploitation.

It's just a way to keep those poor innocent men from having their lives ruined because they paid for sex.

FYI, while there are some exceptions, sex-for-pay is is not an economic or socially equitabke transaction. The primary purpose is for men to have a measure of sexual control over women because they paid for them. Legalization will not stop that. And it won't reduce trafficking.

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
98. That is a good point.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 07:32 PM
Feb 2019

I would imagine however, that if women have agency over providing the service and are able to earn a good living, then it may change. There is some historical evidence from the Western Expansion in the US that women were establishing themselves as land owners and civic leaders through the legal practice of prostitution. Then it was made illegal, likely because men did not want women having that level of power within communities.

The discussion was precisely to have all of the diverse ideas be discussed. Thanks.

Snackshack

(2,541 posts)
86. I vote
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 01:55 PM
Feb 2019

Yes. It is well past the time to face reality. It has been around for thousands of years and it is not going to stop anytime soon.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
95. Correct. Legalize, regulate and tax it.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 02:15 PM
Feb 2019

When it is out in the open, sex workers are able to access health services and law enforcement without stigma or retribution. Reality is they will always exist, so let’s give them protection.

Prohibition never works. Prime example of that is the 18th Amendment. A whole underworld was created by it.

mn9driver

(4,426 posts)
89. In abstract, an argument can be made for it.
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 01:59 PM
Feb 2019

In practice, it is not so neat. In the real world, sex is not like other “work”. In places where sex work has been legalized and regulated, many of the same age old problems remain. It doesn’t have a good track record.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
100. Long past time
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 09:23 PM
Feb 2019

We're actively hurting everyone with this puritanical ban on adults doing consensual things. As it stands anyone doing any kind of sex work is being treated like they are trafficked, and are being forced underground and put in danger while people get to act like they are helping and take a moral high ground.

No where in any of these laws are the actual workers asked for input.

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