General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs it time to legalize prostitution?
There are a TON of posts about the Patriot's owner and possible higher ups going down in the Florida sex sting. I responded to some, and I have seen other posts where they are talking about human trafficking which is a horrendous thing and should be stopped. What I don't think I have seen is a discussion about legalizing and regulating prostitution.
I think that prostitution is definitively a self determination issue. As long as a person can consent (age, cognitive ability, etc..) what they do with their bodies should be their choice, including selling sexual favors. I also think that as with ANY transaction, there should be protections for any party engaging in that transaction.
The US has always had a very Puritanical view of sex and has denigrated women for trying to control their sexuality. I think that there is a love/hate relationship that many American men have with sex. They love sex but many hate the idea of women being assertive about their sexuality and sexual pleasure.
I think that taking the illegality out of sex work and building in protections to the industry would help to decrease trafficking and hopefully remove some of the stigma around sex.
musicblind
(4,484 posts)I agree.
For example, shutting down escort sites makes sex work far more dangerous.
JI7
(89,250 posts)not because they need to for their economic survival.
Caliman73
(11,738 posts)We all consent to work but I am sure that not many of us would be working our jobs if our economic survival didn't depend on it.
Work is work. Some people fix cars, some dig ditches, some program computers, some people don't feel there is anything wrong with sex for money.
Sexual freedom is about using your sexuality in ANY way that you want so long as it is not harming anyone else. When you assume that all sex workers are "being exploited" that feeds into the idea that somehow sex is wrong and women need to be protected from themselves. The stigma about sex work comes from that puritanical thinking that says women must be chaste and sex should only be for love and marriage.
JI7
(89,250 posts)littlemissmartypants
(22,691 posts)Here's some research on that.
1. Sex Work Research: Methodological and Ethical Challenges
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0886260504274340
2. Prostitution Stigma and Its Effect on the Working Conditions, Personal Lives, and Health of Sex Workers
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499.2017.1393652?journalCode=hjsr20
3. Decreasing Human Trafficking through Sex Work Decriminalization
https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/decreasing-human-trafficking-through-sex-work-decriminalization/2017-01
If it isn't a discussion worthy topic, based on laissez-faire replies, why are there so many scholarly articles on the subject?
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,34&as_vis=1&q=%22sex+work%22+scholarly+articles,+list
Nothing is worse than having sex with someone you neither love, care for, like nor respect. Especially if you don't like the person to start with (or never did) and this kind of sex, which becomes work, happens in billions of boudoirs every day, worldwide. None of those conditions; like, love or caring, are required to turn the sex into work or exclude it from the definition of work.
The condition of the equitable position of power is the only condition that really matters the most in the definition of work. Plus, I would venture to guess there's more sex being had that falls into the 'work' category than the 'not work' category, and that's just a sad, unsexy fact.
janterry
(4,429 posts)I would rather follow quantitative data in this case
https://realforwomen.wordpress.com/impacts-on-women/prostitution-industry/countries-with-legal-sex-industry-impacts-on-women/
littlemissmartypants
(22,691 posts)My point was not to reduce the workers to faceless numbers, who are not all cis female, but to try to elevate the conversation beyond knee jerk reactions. It's an expansive topic that is as much a mystery as it is dangerous. Thousands of words by thousands of people have been written about it, so I will never claim to be anyone who really knows anything about it. I know it's been debated ad infinitum. But most of all it's about living, breathing, soulful beings. That's something we should think more about, for sure.
janterry
(4,429 posts)I have studied a little about it - though it's not my personal field of expertise. I find the statistics of those countries that legalize it - sobering. And it refutes the idea that we can sanitize it as 'industry.'
I've worked with women who have prostituted - a little - in the prisons (they were there for drug related charges, so it was a biased subset - if you will). Among that population, it was one of the things they hated the most, were the most shamed by - and whispered about, if they told. These are women that have endured a lot - and lost even more. For this population, prostitution meant that they were on the lowest rung of the ladder (of their addiction, and their life). If they told another addict, it was short-hand for the fact that they had fallen so far that their life was in obvious pieces.
Sort of what the guys would call a 'sloppy addict' (their term, not mine)
littlemissmartypants
(22,691 posts)You won't do or consider doing if you have no choice. I am so thankful that I got a good education. I can only imagine how hard it was for you to do that work. Thank goodness you were able to win their trust, they probably needed someone to talk to.
The subjugation of women and the exploitation of women's bodies
I'm sure it's next. But it's to our (as women) own detriment.
obamanut2012
(26,079 posts)Just stop.
treestar
(82,383 posts)No matter what else you do. Even modeling can be done without anyone touching you. And it has nothing to do with puritanism. It's being able to pick sex partners for sex, not because you need the money.
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Nobody WANTS to flip burgers. Few if any people would want to do unskilled work without getting paid.
Sex workers can be well paid. Janitors, not so much.
JI7
(89,250 posts)crazytown
(7,277 posts)JI7
(89,250 posts)crazytown
(7,277 posts)Mr. Shithole himself.
JI7
(89,250 posts)and they have sex with guys who they WANT to have sex with.
crazytown
(7,277 posts)I am not trying to demean minimum wage work, only saying people do not WANT to do it.
Exactly.
Though I think when it comes to prostitution, prostitutes shouldn't be arrested. If a place of their employment is raided, the women should be asked if they are forced into it.
Outlaw the middle men. The pimps. The madams. Those who organize it.
Or can make more money that way than with a traditional job.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Unions have been busted and employers have too much control over the lives of workers. This is not an environment that I think would be anything but damaging and exploitative for sex workers.
Caliman73
(11,738 posts)Perhaps that could be a new unionizing idea. I do understand the concern however.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Expecting a resurgence in what could be a highly profitable industry is naive.
Lancero
(3,003 posts)Pimps are free to exploit their workers however they wish, given the threat of jail over the head if they ever go to the cops.
Circumstances are bad for workers in general in todays market sure, and while hardly ideal for the general worker it'd still be a improvement for sex workers.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)I'm saying legalizing it risks legalizing exploitation. Mainstreaming and enabling what pimps already do to women could easily bring it to more women.
JI7
(89,250 posts)Caliman73
(11,738 posts)What leads you to ask that question? Did you read the post?
The question is about legalizing prostitution.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)Since it is not legal, sex workers are easily exploited and cannot take advantage of the law when they are victimized. It is also not easy to regulate when it is underground and hides in the shadows.
applegrove
(118,677 posts)is how local police in Ottawa frame the issue. What happens if some developmentally delayed is got into the business? I'm all for safe sites and women keeping their own money. They would have to be heavily regulated though. And of course drugs. They enable drug habits. That would need to be regulated too.
Caliman73
(11,738 posts)Like I said in my OP, the ability to consent is paramount. Exploitation is definitely something that would need to be mitigated heavily.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)I agree with the thoughts on Unionization within a legal industry. That in and of itself could very well take care of many of those devilish details. The legalization and regulation of this activity is long overdue in my opinion.
LuvNewcastle
(16,846 posts)The reason a lot of them get into prostitution in the first place is because they were abused at home, physically or sexually or both. They run away and get into prostitution so they can feed themselves and end up getting exploited by a pimp who gets them to start using drugs. It's an ugly life. Not too many women from more privileged backgrounds get involved in prostitution because they have other, better choices. That's what these women need, more choices, and drug rehab and counseling.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Let's face it, there are very few people who become prostitutes because they are making healthy choices for themselves. It is usually entered into out of desperation.
Kablooie
(18,634 posts)Now that asian massage parlors are in the news, after reading a few articles, I predict it will be the new popular focus for law enforcement. it will be the new fad to eliminate all massage parlor sex.
RandySF
(58,884 posts)crazytown
(7,277 posts)The regulation of legal enterprise makes it easier to root out trafficking.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)of human trafficking they experienced.
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Legalisation of the industry brought criminal operations out into the open. A casino may not be a money laundering outfit for the mob, but an illegal casino is easy to blackmail.
(0h yeah - and no more police were involved - they moved the cops who were previously charged with shutting down prostitution into apprehending people traffickers)
Squinch
(50,950 posts)people realized it was rampant. But not before.
You keep telling yourself that.
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Squinch
(50,950 posts)crazytown
(7,277 posts)The debates, the church groups, feminists for and against, sex workers telling their stories, the shock jocks warning that family values would be finished. Its like the legalisation of anything, there are always those who seek to exploit peoples fears.
Within weeks of legalisation, the arrests of sex traffickers began in earnest.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)the explosion in human trafficking.
crazytown
(7,277 posts)You posit a hypothetical case, then dismiss real world reports. You know so much about sex trafficking first hand right. And cannibis is a gateway drug to smack. OK. Fine. Bye.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)crazytown
(7,277 posts)Nee South Wales has 23 years experience of legal prostitution.
This University Report was presented to and accepted by a Conservative State Goverment 2012?
The decriminalisation of sex work in NSW combined with a free market approach has resulted in one of the healthiest sex industries ever documented, a report to NSW Health has found.
International authorities regard the NSW regulatory framework as best practice the result of decades of partnership by government, community organisations, health workers and researchers, according to the report, The Sex Industry in New South Wales. ...
Lead author, Professor Basil Donovan from the Kirby Institute at the University of New South Wales, said the report showed that any moves to reintroduce bans or licensing of sex work would be a backward step.
Jurisdictions that try to ban or license sex work always lose track as most of the industry slides into the shadows. Prostitution laws are the greatest allies of the exploiters. In NSW, by contrast, health and community workers have comprehensive access to and surveillance of the sex industry. That access has resulted in the healthiest sex industry ever documented.
Decriminalisation of the industry in 1995 led to a dramatic reduction in police corruption and sex worker exploitation. Is there still a ragged edge to the NSW sex industry? Of course, but the size of that ragged edge is much smaller than anywhere else, Professor Donovan said.
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/health/sex-work-nsw-healthiest-world
Free market they means, no licensing, central register of prostitutes. Health includes, STDs, substance abuse, and mental health. For Example: -
Liberal laws, combined with structural and prosecutorial anti- corruption measures in the police force, widespread AIDS education, improved funding for STD services, the establishment of outreach Health Services and funding for prostitutes organisations appear to have resulted in certain positive changes: a reduction in the public order problems associated with the industry; a reduction in police corruption; a decentralisation of the industry; the proliferation of small groups of independent workers; an increase in the use of condoms and other safer sex practices; a reduction in the prevalence of STDs amongst prostitutes; and an awareness amongst prostitutes and the general community of the measures necessary to assist in HIV prevention.
https://aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/proceedings/downloads/16-egger.pdf
Squinch
(50,950 posts)flooded with illegal prostitutes. Evidenced by the creation of a WHOLE NEW POLICE FORCE that had to be created to combat it.
Also, see post 47 for a different take on what is going on in Australia.
crazytown
(7,277 posts)In fact Australia has an infamous and obsessive record of dealing with would be undocumented immigrants. Refugees are imprioned in offshore concentration camps in Narru. Every boat is turned back. Every passsnger arriving by plane questioned. People from South East Asian countries can expect to be taken off for an interview. As Trump said, Australia is worse than him.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Even as an American citizen, I had to have a visa to get in for a vacation. No visa, no entry.
Australia is extremely selective on who they allow as landed immigrants. If you dont fit by their formula, you dont get the status.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)They are healthy and it helps put food on the table or pay the mortgage.
Australia has a healthier attitude toward sex and it shows on the streets of their cities. I never noticed street sex workers there when I visited in 2001.
NSW made a wise choice.
treestar
(82,383 posts)not for women. They aren't doing that because of this "healthy attitude." It only benefits the johns.
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)...their national debate about legalization. Probably in a far better position to know of what they speak of Australian politics.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)There is nothing in the member's post that states what you posit or could be used to conclude that the poster takes the extreme and bogus position you try to pin on them.
Nor is the poster guilty of the binary all-or-nothing white-or-black zero-or-one thinking your post exhibits: "no one ever knew it existed before".
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)For a pretty good discussion of this, and the key to the chart, go to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_law
Basically-- green is legal, red is illegal, and the other colors are in-between.
Note the wide swaths of red in places many of us would not like to live for other reasons. They are mostly authoritarian and puritanical states. I am not sure why Japan insists on keeping it illegal, but the Japanese have many customs unfamiliar to us.
The Dutch have periodically been overcome by a feverous morality and try to shut down Amsterdam's red light district, but it is a quite profitable tourist attraction, so the moralists don't get too far. That may have changed recently.
Germany, always so efficient, had for years managed its sex trade in large buildings with no hint on the outside what was going on on the inside.
Both countries had long decided that some people were willing to buy sex, and some to sell it, so it was perfectly reasonable to have a properly regulated marketplace.
Maru Kitteh
(28,340 posts)I might consider buying some bullshit argument about "choice."
Squinch
(50,950 posts)littlemissmartypants
(22,691 posts)obamanut2012
(26,079 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)That logic is as useless as saying "When wealthy women choose to go to back alley abortion clinics I might consider buying some bullshit argument about 'choice.' "
There are a number of women, some famous, who got wealthy by choosing to provide sexual services for pricy fees.
Now, that is a much truer and cogent connection between wealthy women and choice.
Wealthy women and men typically do not clean toilets by choice. Does that mean you believe that people cleaning toilets are not competent adults capable of making choices about how they make their living?
Your post also exhibits the sexist notion that only women are prostitutes.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)where we pretend that the countries where prostitution is legal have not seen an explosion in trafficking.
Read a study. Admit the truth to yourself. Prostitution is not nice girls who like sex and are working their way through college.
If you have used a prostitute, the overwhelming likelihood is that she was being coerced to it using either violence or addiction or both. If you have used a prostitute, you have contributed to the exploitation of a fellow human being.
And legalization does not stop trafficking. It increases it.
safeinOhio
(32,686 posts)If you are against abortion, don't get one. If you are against prostitution, don't buy or sell sex. In the meantime, make it safe for both.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)rather increases, I guess that's just you living your best life of choice.
safeinOhio
(32,686 posts)Do you have any figures on child exploitation in legal, regulated states? While regulated may not end underage, just like legal abortion does not end all deaths, but in countries where it is legal and regulated, it is much less a problem. Legal brothels can be inspected, illegal ones are hidden and move around. Health and age checks are not possible now.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)Locrian
(4,522 posts)From the link posed in reference to issues with increased trafficking.
While trafficking inflows may be lower where prostitution is criminalized, there may be severe repercussions for those working in the industry. For example, criminalizing prostitution penalizes sex workers rather than the people who earn most of the profits (pimps and traffickers).
The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a countrys inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking, the researchers state. However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes at least those legally employed if prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky freedom of choice issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.
https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/
treestar
(82,383 posts)where prostitution is legal?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Not at all. An abortion is a one time thing.
janterry
(4,429 posts)It's a sexist institution and it demeans women.
safeinOhio
(32,686 posts)legal abortions by the Church too. Must take away rights to protect the women/.
janterry
(4,429 posts)Countries that have legalized it, have found that illegal trafficking has risen - as has the abuse of women. Brothels of women that are sold as slaves is a problem.
https://realforwomen.wordpress.com/impacts-on-women/prostitution-industry/countries-with-legal-sex-industry-impacts-on-women/
Australia
Debt-bondage in NSW brothel network via student visa traps. Pimps evade police with illegal pop-up massage parlours: Sydney massage centre challenges illegal brothel claim, Sydney Morning Herald, February 21, 2016
Melbourne sex worker ring leads to jail, news.com.au, December 11, 2015
Sex inquiry recommends greater powers for police to tackle brothel crime, Brisbane Times, November 7, 2015
Its time to clean up prostitution in NSW: The community and individual damage wrought by prostitution in Sydney is now apparent to everyone, even foreign governments (South Korea sent an emissary to the state in 2010, to investigate the trafficking of its female citizens). NSW Police this year publicly admitted outlaw motorcycle gangs had links with at least 40 brothels in the state; a sex worker was set alight a few years ago; groups of women have been found debt-bonded to brothels; and individual women have been found dead in hotels.
The victims are often foreign. In 2012, researchers identified more than 50 per cent of their research sample in approved brothels in metropolitan Sydney as being of Asian or other non-English speaking country background, and nearly 45 per cent of these respondents as speaking only poor or fair English. Dr Caroline Norma, lecturer in the School of Global, Urban and Social Studies at RMIT University, member of the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women Australia, Brisbane Times, November 10, 2015
safeinOhio
(32,686 posts)Turn Victims into Empowered Entrepreneurs and Business Owners
Pop Quiz: Which Free Gift Has the Greatest Chance to Liberate a Woman from Human Trafficking in Nepal?
https://www.friendsofwpcnepal.org/job-training-solve-human-trafficking/?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Good heavens.
samnsara
(17,622 posts)...if that old guy can get it up for a prosti then good for him. Hes been a widow for a few years now..leave him be.
Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)screw all those women who were forced to move to that spa, live there, work there, and have sex there? Bc they didn't have a choice in the matter.
Brainstormy
(2,380 posts)including Canada.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)They got sick of their politicians having sex scandals.
littlemissmartypants
(22,691 posts)More about power and control. It's not gender specific either. Interesting post, Caliman73.
ForgedCrank
(1,782 posts)People are going to do it regardless of the law. I don't necessarily condone any of it, in fact I highly discourage all of it from a personal perspective, but that's mixing my personal opinion with law and individual freedoms.
I think the legalization of prostitution would likely bring about a lot of positives IF done properly.
In other words, don't allow government to get too involved. Obviously, monitoring, etc is the goal to make things safer, but if it is done how pot has been in the west where local governments tax the ever-livin' shit out of it, you don't kill off the black market, which would be one of the goals of legalization. The legal marketplace needs to be more attractive in both scale and economy (as odd as that sounds regarding this subject).
Obviously, some permit requirements and fees would be necessary to cover the overhead of state oversight such as medical screening and certifications, etc, but it has to be a utilitarian approach or it will never be successful.
OnDoutside
(19,960 posts)Squinch
(50,950 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Now it ought to be illegal because of the exploitation of the women. This is where all that argument about being "Puritanical" not to favor women having no better choice than to sell sex. It is "liberating" the men, not the women.
obamanut2012
(26,079 posts)Is REALLY really gross. Just stop.
Conflating well-paid escorts who make the decision to do this vs. human trafficking victims or women desperate to walk the streets because they need rent and food for their kids OR women walking the streets controlled by pimps is even more gross.
See that paragraph? See how little agency the women involved have?
So no, it shoulnd't be legalized except for certain escort services that are highly, highly regulated. And you should not discuss this by using Asian women who are trafficking victims as the impetus.
ismnotwasm
(41,986 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)It has nothing to do with economic freedom of "choice" for women and certainly has nothing to do with reducing trafficking and exploitation.
It's just a way to keep those poor innocent men from having their lives ruined because they paid for sex.
FYI, while there are some exceptions, sex-for-pay is is not an economic or socially equitabke transaction. The primary purpose is for men to have a measure of sexual control over women because they paid for them. Legalization will not stop that. And it won't reduce trafficking.
This selling it as "freedom of choice" for women is baloney.
Caliman73
(11,738 posts)I would imagine however, that if women have agency over providing the service and are able to earn a good living, then it may change. There is some historical evidence from the Western Expansion in the US that women were establishing themselves as land owners and civic leaders through the legal practice of prostitution. Then it was made illegal, likely because men did not want women having that level of power within communities.
The discussion was precisely to have all of the diverse ideas be discussed. Thanks.
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)Snackshack
(2,541 posts)Yes. It is well past the time to face reality. It has been around for thousands of years and it is not going to stop anytime soon.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)When it is out in the open, sex workers are able to access health services and law enforcement without stigma or retribution. Reality is they will always exist, so lets give them protection.
Prohibition never works. Prime example of that is the 18th Amendment. A whole underworld was created by it.
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)mn9driver
(4,426 posts)In practice, it is not so neat. In the real world, sex is not like other work. In places where sex work has been legalized and regulated, many of the same age old problems remain. It doesnt have a good track record.
former9thward
(32,016 posts)LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)We're actively hurting everyone with this puritanical ban on adults doing consensual things. As it stands anyone doing any kind of sex work is being treated like they are trafficked, and are being forced underground and put in danger while people get to act like they are helping and take a moral high ground.
No where in any of these laws are the actual workers asked for input.