Just watching "The World Wars" on the History Channel. I never knew...

[brush]

Last edited Sun Feb 17, 2019, 11:34 PM - Edit history (1)

that Germany, after Churchhill's disastrous failure at Gallipoli and forced resignation as First Lord of the Admiralty, financed Lenin, then in exile in Switzerland, with 10M and sent him on a train to Moscow.

Lenin was met by Stalin who had been sent to Siberia six times but escaped six times. Together they successfully overthrew the Czar and took Russia out of the WWl. Germany's plan worked.

Of course Germany eventually lost.

[sandensea]

1. British Empire leadership was persuaded by Alexander Helphand to help create a "permanent adversary"

Said adversary, of course, had to be easily isolated yet large enough to create fear in the public at large.

It couldn't be a mouse that roared; Russia fit the bill perfectly - and was ripe for revolution besides.

[brush]

2. Pls explain. Germany, Britain's enemy, financed Lenin's return to Russia.

[mitch96]

5. Germany did not want to fight on two fronts..

The Germans were getting squeezed from both sides... British and French on the west and Imperial Russia in the east. Lenin returned to Russia and the communists overthrow the Czar. The Russian people were sick of war and loosing. The communists made peace with Germany. Germany then could take the men and material it was expending in the east and fight on the western front only. This made the war last longer and kill more men on both sides..
At least that's how I read it..
m

[Trumpocalypse]

7. Actually the Czar had already been overthrown.

The provisional Karinsky government was continuing the war. Lenin promised to end the war by overthrowing Karinsky.

[mitch96]

8. I stand corrected.

Germany still wanted the eastern war to end so they could concentrate on the western front.
m

[Trumpocalypse]

10. Not your fault

Watching the History channel show too and they are making a lot of factual errors.

[mitch96]

16. They also leave out a bunch of interesting tid bits of history..

on the whys and where for's... Interesting how leaders back then acted on ego and not smart military strategy... Kinda sorta like today... As the saying goes,
"Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them. "
m

[brush]

13. Yes, I get that. But what was Alexander Helphand's role in Britain...

Last edited Mon Feb 18, 2019, 04:01 AM - Edit history (1)

aiding Lenin's return to Moscow?

[mitch96]

17. "But who was Alexander Helphand's role"

Damned if I know.... Did you google it???
m

[brush]

18. Sorry, I replied to the wrong poster.

[mitch96]

20. I hate when that happens to me.. No problem.. nt

[sandensea]

11. Germany was given to creating fifth columns as well. They and the British both were.

Britain had more influence and resources with which to do so, that's all.

And of course neither did it as well as as Dubya (or rather, Cheney and his PNAC mafia).

[empedocles]

3. Interesting thread. Hope it continues.

[brush]

4. Further on in the program it was disclosed that a letter from Germany to Mexico was intercepted.

The Germans proposed to Mexico that it would finance a Mexican effort to take back the border states of Texas, New Mexico and Arizona. It was an effort to keep the US out of the European war.

Wilson, upon reading the intercepted communique, declares war on Germany.

After the war at Versailles treaty talks, Japan, which had joined the war on the side of the European and American allies, was totally ignored even though it had spent millions and contributed thousands of troops. This of course came back to haunt us years later in WWll.

Italy had also fought with the allies but was similllarly left out of the spoils.

[northoftheborder]

14. Interesting information about Germany suggesting to Mexico that they attempt to take back

TX. N. Mex. & Arizona. I had never heard that bit.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. The Zimmermann Telegram? Held to be very influential in drawing the USA into the war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram

I'm very surprised that isn't a standard part of American school history teaching.

[dalton99a]

32. +1. "Hello chaps, we've been reading your mail and there's some things in here you really should see

https://medium.com/lapsed-historian/breaking-the-zimmermann-telegram-b34ed1d73614

Breaking the Zimmermann Telegram
John Bull
Jan 18, 2018

Just over one hundred years ago, the British carried out one of the most audacious acts in the history of codebreaking. So audacious, in fact, that they had to convince the Americans they hadn’t done it at all…

We intend to begin on the first of February unrestricted submarine warfare. We shall endeavour in spite of this to keep the United States of America neutral. In the event of this not succeeding, we make Mexico a proposal of alliance on the following basis: make war together, make peace together, generous financial support and an understanding on our part that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. The settlement in detail is left to you. You will inform the President of the above most secretly as soon as the outbreak of war with the United States of America is certain and add the suggestion that he should, on his own initiative, invite Japan to immediate adherence and at the same time mediate between Japan and ourselves. Please call the President’s attention to the fact that the ruthless employment of our submarines now offers the prospect of compelling England in a few months to make peace.

Signed, ZIMMERMANN

[dixiegrrrrl]

35. Barbara Tuchman, american historian, wrote a book about it, back in 1958.

But, grade school history left a lot to be desired, esp. during the Cold War years.

[pecosbob]

42. The Guns of August was considered to be the definitive analysis of the years leading up to the war

some of her conclusions have fallen a bit out of fashion in recent years, but her work is invaluable for perspective on the period

[TheFarseer]

19. I was always surprised

The central powers couldn’t offer italy a piece of France, Corsica, Malta or some colonies to get them to join up. I think they would have won with Italy. Also, it was an obvious waste of time to try to enlist Mexico. Mexico would have been little more than a nuisance side theatre to the US.

[brush]

22. Mexico's own Civil War was still raging. Villa was an effective general...

who was one of the first to use railroads successfully to move troops quickly. America's army at the time, only 100k in number. and green, was greatly outnumbered by battle-hardened Mexican troops in the armies of the top Mexican generals

It would not have been a minor skirmish.

[TheFarseer]

25. I read a bit on this just now

And it seems Mexican forces defeated a superior US force at the battle of Carrizal during a punitive expedition, which coupled with deteriorating relations with Germany, caused us to negotiate peace, so you very well could be correct a war with Mexico could have been much more than we bargained for, although it would somewhat depend on the Mexicans putting aside their differences to fight the Americans. Anyway, I learned something.

[brush]

30. Italy fought with the allies during WWl but didnt...

get any of the spoils of war at Versailles. Not so strange considering how both Japan and Italy were treated at Versailles that they both ended up on the other side in WWll.

[OldEurope]

37. Italy got large chunks of the former Habsburg Empire after WW I

Northern parts of modern Italy were Habsburg owned when WWI started. After the war Southern Tyrol, Trieste, Veneto, Istria were Italian. Italy was an ally of Germany and Austria but made a secret treaty in London in 1915. It reached all its goals in WW I.

[brush]

38. Did the History Channel get it wrong?

In the broadcast it stated that the country, Mussolini included, felt cheated by the allies after the Versailles Treaty, which spurred Mussolini to began organizing his Black Shirts.

[OldEurope]

40. AFAIK, the Italian King, Vittorio Emanuele III...

… was an ally of Germany and Austria. But he wanted Italy to be within natural borders that were not easy to break - the Alps. So he got a secret treaty and Italy was rewarded after the war - secretly. But Italy could not gain economic bargain of that - like most of the other European countries who either blamed the Germans or the Versailles treaties. Until nowadays.

Edited to add:
Yes, they got it wrong on History Channel, they fell for Mussolinis Propaganda.

[Trumpocalypse]

6. They exaggerated Stalin's role in 1917

revolution.

But the Germans did get Lenin to Russia. There is a old BBC series called ‘Fall of Eagles’ has a whole episode about that with Patrick Stewart playing Lenin.https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1270180/?ref_=ttep_ep12

[bobbieinok]

9. 'To the Finland Station'--Germans took Lenin in a SEALED CAR to Russia so his ideas couldn't infect

--so his ideas couldn't infect Germany!!

I was stunned when I learned about this while reading Edmund Wilson's book To the Finland Station.

IIRC the Germans hoped Lenin would set off major disruptions in Russia that would take them out of the war so that Germany could turn it's full attention to the Western Front.

The treaty Gemany forced on Russia was extremely damaging to Russia. Many pointed to Germany's demands in this treaty when people claimed the Treaty of Versailles was too damaging to Germany--'So?? It's just tit for tat!!'

[Baltimike]

12. The History Channel is right wing. nt

[dixiegrrrrl]

36. What makes you say that? n/t

[UTUSN]

21. Last week, different program, CHURCHILL & MUSSOLINI had a long, friendly correspondence

The program was about revisions to how/why/who killed MUSSOLINI, to the effect that he had long been a drag on HITLER, who finally decided to get rid of him, that the insurgents who killed him were not clearly identified, that one speculation was that the Brits wanted him silenced to destroy the CHURCHILL correspondence and documentation.

[brush]

23. Wow! More info lost to history is coming out.

[UTUSN]

24. Well, lots of Fascist love in the Brit upper classes!1

[LeftInTX]

33. Mussolini was popular here too

Roosevelt liked him at first.

Italy was seen as a backwater place and Italians immigrants were struggling over here. At the time, Mussolini was seen as someone who was bringing pride back and revitalizing Italy.

Of course, this changed.

[Kaleva]

26. There were two revolutions in Russia in 1917

The February Revolution forced the Czar to abdicate and whose authority was replaced by the Russian Provisional Government made up of members of the Duma. The October Revolution, led by the Bolsheviks, overthrew the provisional government and took Russia out of the war.

[underpants]

27. *

Oh this looks like a DU Classic educational experience. Thanks for posting it.

[brush]

28. Thank you. I love these kind of posts too.

I'm learning a lot as DUers contribute their own knowledge of this period.

[Xolodno]

29. Allow me to throw a few more tid-bits..

1. The people started rebelling because they couldn't get bread/food. Despite it being plentiful, it didn't reach the populace because of certain nobles arguing each other on how much each should profit over it. When the Bolsheviks took over, despite being not being different "from the old boss", they made sure bread was available to purchase.

2. The rank and file troops were pissed they were firing on protesters just wanting food...something their own families would do. And the Tsarists Government didn't even distinguish between protesters. Even the ones who protesting in support of the Tsar, got run down.

3. The Russian Army should have been able to run rough-shod over the German Army, thus ending the war quickly. But the Army was never modernized. Why? Because one influential noble counseled the Tsar against it, calling it unnecessary. Why? Because he had an economic stake in keeping the status quo, modernizing meant his profits and lifestyle would suffer the inconvenience of switching "investments".

4. The Russian Government also looked at the war as an opportunity to finally "Liberate" Constantinople (Istanbul) from Islam and return the Hagia Sophia as the center of Orthodoxy (their version of the Vatican). You might say "WTF? Its been under Islamic control for centuries, the Russian Empire has been around for centuries as well, we measure things in decades, they measure things in half millenniums.

Side Note; Bet your sweet ass they still look at "Liberating" Constantinople. It's the primary reason why Turkey is in NATO. And don't forget, during Greece's financial issues, Putin was rubbing elbows with them...as Greece would like to see that territory "returned" to them. But they politely declined. So, now the game appears to be, make "friends" with Turkey...since they are treated like the ugly red-headed step child.

5. Tsar Alexander I was implementing reforms, those of which would have probably put the Imperial Family into a more advisory role vs. absolute rule. This would have put Russia into a representative government and could have helped prevent or shorten WWI...thus, WWII. He was assassinated by people who that his reforms weren't happening fast enough, resulting in Alexander II and Nicholas II to stamp down on all reforms.

[FakeNoose]

31. Good stuff!

Thanks for this info.

[uponit7771]

34. +1

[pecosbob]

41. I believe the only major monarch to end that war still on the throne was George V

King George was so afraid of being deposed himself he refused to grant his cousin Nicky asylum after he was deposed. Changed the name of the royal family to Windsor. Wilhelm II lived out his days in exile in the Netherlands I believe. All three were closely related.

I'm somewhat amused by the parallels one could draw between pre-war Hapsburg empire and today's unchecked control by the one percent in the U.S...virtually unparalleled hubris and entitlement. It's like an unattended pressure cooker about to blow.