If Manafort or Stone was pardoned and then compelled to testify

[Mr. Ected]

What would prevent them from continuing to lie under oath to protect Trump? A perjury count? Isn't the max sentence 5 years for that? Compared to the prison time they're facing, that would seem to be a sweetheart deal they'd make with Putin/Trump in advance of a pardon.

[Jarqui]

1. And Trump can pardon them again for perjury. nt

Trump losing in 2020 would stop the pardons. By the time a Republican took the Oval office, those crooks will be too toxic to pardon.

[Eyeball_Kid]

2. IMO, that would be a terrible decision.

A pardon cannot be used for future crimes. Lying, post-pardon, under oath brings perjury charges which are punishable. Each perjury charge can be given in sequence, and those can rack up a lot of prison time. Contempt of Court (refusing to testify) charges can be brought and will imprison the defendant until s/he agrees to testify. So for either Manafort or Stone, a pardon isn't any magic bullet. We can also rest assured that state AGs are accumulating evidence for state prosecutions, which are immune from presidential pardons. Prison time is prison time, coming from federal or state courts. Were jail time mandatory, both Manafort and Stone would likely have a less painful time in federal prisons. So they'll have to choose.

Manafort, of course, is in far more serious jeopardy, since he is in hock with the Russian mob, and he has vulnerable family members who may be victimized by Russian revenge. None of it will look pretty. The most altruistic thing Manafort can do is get out in public and wave his arms around, hoping a Russian hit squad is hovering around and ready to pounce. That way, Manafort will die and his kids and family will survive.

[Wellstone ruled]

3. Glad you mentioned the Russian Mob.

Sure looks like this is the unexposed part of the Trump/Manafort/Stone related criminal activities. There was a story out of European Press early on this week going in that direction and naming a Mobster connection who lives in St Petersburg Russia having ties to the afore mentioned people as well as other Political Players around the world.

Is this the Guy who's name everyone is afraid of?

[Mr. Ected]

4. Are you saying that each lie under oath could result in separate perjury counts?

If that's the case, Manafort would have to tell no more than 6 lies to break even (if he's looking at a 30-year sentence).

My point is that neither of these vermin give two shits about the American justice system and the same is true of the Pardoner-in-Chief. As long as Trump's television audience (I refuse to call them his "base"; it infers that their allegiance is political, when in fact they're just empty-headed viewers of a presidential reality show) stay on board, and they assuredly would, theoretically, they would still be better off to accept a pardon under the condition that they continue to lie under oath about Trump and his family's conspiracy to throw an election, among a myriad of other things. Stacking perjury counts may alter that calculus, though.

Yes, state charges would certainly change the analysis, but isn't the Supreme Court currently looking into the dual sovereignty exception to double jeopardy? If this is altered, I'm concerned that even that avenue may be closed to state prosecutors.

This is what happens when you hand a mob boss the most insulated job in the world.

[alwaysinasnit]

5. Corrupt intent in a pardon could be problematic...

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/-corrupt-intent-could-be-problem-for-trump-in-a-manafort-pardon-1321029187514

[Mr. Ected]

6. Intent is exceedingly difficult to prove in a court of law

It may be obvious, but is it provable?

[alwaysinasnit]

7. I guess it would depend on the standard of evidence required to prove it. If it is preponderance,

then I think that would be easy to overcome.

[exboyfil]

8. With possible state and civil

Exposure do you necessarily give up 5th amendment after a pardon?

[Mr. Ected]

9. That's my understanding. Similar to an admission of guilt.

With no protections against self-incrimination, you become a very compelling witness for the prosecution...unless you subvert the constitution and continue to lie under oath.

[jmowreader]

10. Now you know why they'll never be pardoned, at least by Trump

Trump cannot risk anyone rolling over on him, and if they were pardoned they'd have to.

[Mr. Ected]

11. Ah, but would they?

Seems a future perjury charge would always carry a lighter sentence than the ones they've been charged with; it would take years to litigate, and Manafort and Stone show no qualms about lying under oath and in fact have a general contempt of the system as it applies to them.

I think these ratfuckers would continue to do whatever needed to be done to diminish or avoid a lengthy stay in prison, including the Pardoner in Chief.

[jmowreader]

12. It doesn't matter either way

One must always remember Trump has no loyalty and no friends. His only concern is himself. I hope he wouldn’t kill someone to ensure their silence, but he’d have no problem with locking them up for life to achieve the same end.

The last two people in the world I’d want to be right now are Ivana’s boys. That SOB would have them thrown in jail in a second to save his own ass, and they know it. Ivanka is a different story... he would do anything not involving being locked up himself for her.