My patient swapped chemotherapy for essential oils. Arguing is a fool's errand

[SidDithers]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/14/my-patient-swapped-chemotherapy-for-essential-oils-arguing-is-a-fools-errand

I wish that as an oncologist I could see off quackery through good communication. Unfortunately that doesn’t work

“Tell me why I should have your chemotherapy when I can be healed naturally!”

His face is set, his arms defensively squared. His friend carries a pamphlet that features a suspiciously healthy woman with glamorous hair and a glowing complexion. This is the urgent appointment of the day, for whom other patients were hastily shuffled to make room.

I know I shouldn’t take the bait but, like an addict, I have the urge to say:

Go ahead then, be healed. And I will almost certainly see you again, emaciated, ruined, lamenting the fact that it’s too late.

Thankfully, the code of conduct glides in. I imagine his dread. I remember my position. And I say: “Tell me more.”

Sid

[brooklynite]

1. I came across an interesting podcast about the anti-vaxxer movement...

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4662

It discusses both the background theories of the movement and how to make compelling arguments to an anti-vaxxer.

[SidDithers]

19. Thanks. I'll check it out...

Sid

[marble falls]

2. Point out what happened to Steven Jobs.

[Turbineguy]

6. My cousin believed in the magnets.

She was more intelligent and better educated that I am. She got cancer and died.

[Mariana]

32. That won't work.

They'll just say Jobs would have died anyway, no matter what treatments he received.

[NightWatcher]

3. Maybe someone could introduce something to the patient to make chemo palatable.

For me, it is cannabis.

Chemo sucked and even I skipped doses occasionally, because one can crawl to the toilet and cry as the poison leaves your body only so many times before you can't take it anymore.

I'm not shitting on anyone for what they do during that time in their lives.

[cpamomfromtexas]

10. Thank you for the comment. My husband just got through

Another round. What you describe was what I was so afraid of. He did exceptionally well during treatment but you never know about these things.

[trixie2]

4. One of my best friend just opted out of treatment

She has been battling brain cancer for over 7 years and each surgery/treatment just means a lower quality of life. She is now in a nursing home at the age of 51.

If someone is going to fight they should study and listen to doctors they trust. Nutrition can help and should be scheduled too. Some of these "miracle" natural healing stuff is just snake oil.

I do respect those that no longer want to fight but want a good quality of life when death is eminent.

[doompatrol39]

8. That's a much more understandable position

It's one thing to not want to fight any more especially in the face of a lowered quality of life. My wife is battling cancer now and I know that I would never want her to do that, and thankfully treatment is helping and has not impacted her quality of life to that bad a point. But I can understand that position especially after a years long struggle.

It's another to forgo treatment because of misguided beliefs in homeopathic hokum that has zero chance of helping at all.

[Lucid Dreamer]

23. What I'd like is a good quality of death.

trixie2> I do respect those that no longer want to fight but want a good quality of life when death is eminent.

[Roy Rolling]

5. It Takes Three to Fight Cancer

A patient, a doctor, and a caregiver. Be a caregiver if they must take chemo.

For what it's worth, I've seen actual cases of IV ascorbic acid helping remove certain cells in patients. There are some "natural remedies" that help, and a caring oncologist makes sure the important things aren't ignored.

[DeminPennswoods]

7. Saw this happen

A woman I met spoke of her son who went to Mexico for what I presumed was one of those miracle cancer treatments. He was dead in just a few months after returning. Very sad.

[3Hotdogs]

9. What are his chances of surviving with chemo?

I can envision circumstances when I would reject your advice, also.

I wouldn't go for the oil, just prepare for physician assisted death down the road.

[violetpastille]

28. +1

"Buying more time" sometimes, often, means "Buying more dying".

[BuddhaGirl]

39. Exactly!

Also, chemo is expensive. My FIL's doctor kept recommending rounds of chemo despite him getting sicker and sicker. Fucking doctor. Wonder how much $$ he made off my poor FIL.

My inlaws were from the generation who just didn't question doctors.

[Vinca]

11. The best example is Steve Jobs. He tried "alternative medicine" at a time his cancer

might have been cured. People need to use a little common sense. Fruit juice and acupuncture do not cure cancer.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

18. Yep. My partner had the same cancer.

Very treatable with surgery. Not so much by chemo or radiation. The goal is to cut it out when you find it because if it spreads you are fucked.

Not having the surgery wasn’t even a consideration. After the surgery and confirmation there was no lymph node involvement the doc said “we don’t use cured but I consider you cured”

Steve Jobs was a very smart man.

I’m reminded of a movie line from Prizzi’s Honor: If Marxie Heller's so fucking smart, how come he's so fucking dead?

[Siwsan]

12. The 1st time my sister developed cancer, chemo bought her some time. The 2nd time, it was useless

And both times cancer was caught in an early stage.

It could just be my family experience but both family members who developed cancer, took chemo/radiation treatments and went into remission, later died agonizing deaths from ravenous forms of cancer. And both had passed that 5 year mark - my sister was at over 15 years, supposedly "cured". After her 2nd diagnosis, they told her the cancer had likely been lurking in a dormant stage. Whether true or not, that's what she was told.

At my time of life, I'd likely forego the chemo, try to live the best quality of life I can, and be able to leave something in my estate, instead of going broke, trying to buy a few more years. And, again, that's a personal decision, based on what is right for me.

[tymorial]

13. My immediate question is less on the topic and more on the comments

How many actually read the related article before posting. Cough: "curable cancer"

[in2herbs]

14. The most important treatment in fighting cancer is achieving and sustaining an alkaline pH. How a

person chooses to do that is their right. After all they are the only one affected by their choice.

[Xipe Totec]

16. Yes. Let nature take it's course

Ultimately, natural selection will cull out the stupid.

[jberryhill]

17. Except when people like you kill children

Either by taking your children to Mexico to escape the reach of the courts, or by persuading others to do so with their children by contributing to a culture of lethal stupidity which you perpetuate.

[SidDithers]

22. No...

Cancer quack Robert O Young pushes the pH nonsense.

He was, thankfully, arrested and sent to jail for his quackery.

Then there's this:
Jury awards $105M in suit against pH Miracle author


He's another loon that Oprah gave exposure to on her show.

Sid

[Codeine]

29. Absolutely preposterous bullshit.

It’s sad when the Left rejects science as fervently as the Right.

[Retrograde]

35. A real litmus test!

(That's a chemistry joke)

Just what does an "alkaline pH" mean wrt the human body? How is it measured? Does one measure the pH of the whole body, or just various bits and pieces of it, like hair, sweat, blood, urine? How alkaline do I have to be - is it OK to be just a tad over neutral, or do I have to aim for full-on sodium hydroxide levels? Sounds like a new way to sell diet books and programs to people who don't quite understand how things like digestion work.

BTW, the person with cancer is not the only one affected: the condition can take a heavy toll on friends and family as well.

[Major Nikon]

45. Quackery

[lkinwi]

15. A family member has a friend of a friend whose friend with cancer was "cured" by pumpkin seeds

and a Ph balance thing. She wanted me to read up on this and lectured me about convincing my 94 year old mother to do this regimen. I’m sure she feels that I should have done more to “heal” my mom.

[hatrack]

20. Pumpkin seeds? What is that anyway, laetrile 2.0?

[lkinwi]

33. I'd forgotten about Laetrile. 😂😂😂

[Retrograde]

36. Laetrile! The miracle cure of the 1980s

Or was it the 1970s? It was a big natural cure back way back when, and people tried to get it by eating apricot kernels - which have a pretty high cyanide content. Oops!

[TheBlackAdder]

44. Gotta love those "friend of a friend" attestations.

.



.

[CozyMystery]

21. One of my mother's best friends had this advice about Mom's cancers:

1. Send her to the clinic for whom the friend is an attorney, and have her put through a cleanse for 10 weeks.

2. Take her to somewhere, Texas, where a naturopath has developed, from horse urine, a "natural enzyme" that cures cancer. This works because my mother obviously is missing this natural enzyme in her system and that deficit caused the cancer.

3. Take her to France, where there is another doctor who has a machine that beams electricity into the body, which cures cancer. This is because cells make electricity, and they won't need to do that any more, so instead, those now-unemployed cells have nothing to do except cure the cancer.

This "friend" is an attorney (and a rethug). She went to an upper-tier law school and is not stupid (allegedly). She firmly believes if I make her 3 suggestions happen, my mother will be 100% cured. Her opinion is based on a conspiracy by the FDA and allopaths (I think these are regular MDs) to disallow any treatments that are 100% effective for reasons unknown.

My reply: That sounds interesting. Send me lots of links to science-based evidence from reputable sources, such as the NIH, so I can educate myself on these treatments.

Her reply: Well, you don't have to do it. I will fully support whatever treatments your family decides to do.

The only reason I didn't lose my temper with her was that she had just spent the entire day taking my mother to and from a hospital for biopsies.

My mother's cancers are advanced and are not curable. Thank goodness Mom is sharp as a tack and highly intelligent. If her friend tries to discuss her ideas with Mom, Mom will make her STFU immediately. And then, I am going to drop kick her friend into next year for adding to my mother's distress. (Actually, I will get a restraining order to keep her away from Mom. Friend is a nutcase anyway.)

[crazycatlady]

24. essential oils are a common MLM product

And the people selling the oils on Facebook are constantly putting out medical misinformation saying that the oils are the be all end all with medicine.

[Archae]

25. It's over 6 months now since my cancer surgery.

Prostate cancer.

I still have trouble with the "plumbing," but I'm doing better.

Had I used "essential oils" instead, I'd be on my way to dying.

"Essential oil" hucksters should be jailed.

[SidDithers]

26. +1...

And wishing you all the best for a speedy recovery.



Sid

[Archae]

27. Thanks. Just saw an article here about "Monsanto causes cancer! A study sez so!"

I mean, BEER causes cancer!
(in far more instances)

The hysterics are out for Monsanto's blood, because Jeffrey Smith "proves in his book" that Roundup is "poison," and so are GMO foods.

As to fake "cancer cures," I saw recently that LAETRILE is still being sold as a "cure."

Laetrile!

[phylny]

43. So glad you are doing well. My husband is a prostate cancer survivor.

His surgery was 10 years ago. He had no symptoms, and his doctor said the cancer was so aggressive that had he done nothing, he'd be dead in two years.

Science is a wonderful thing. I wish you the best, and hope you continue to heal and do better!

[flibbitygiblets]

30. At the risk of being flamed, I feel it's important to point out

that there is ample evidence that our behavior has a huge effect on our ability to prevent cancer (and other diseases) in the first place. Specifically, avoiding smoking and other pollutants, excessive drinking, toxic chemicals, organic food (iif available and can be afforded), and a predominantly vegetarian/vegan diet combined with moderate daily exercise.

I know this seems like common sense to many, but as someone who works in healthcare analytics, it's stunning to me how many people do whatever they want to their bodies and then expect the healthcare system to save them from themselves.

That said, once a person has cancer, obviously if s/he wants to fight back, it's best to follow a doctor's advice, whether that be surgery, chemo etc. I agree wholeheartedly with the OP that magnets, oils, etc. are a surefire way to an early grave in lieu of proven treatment modalities.

[ismnotwasm]

31. That's so sad

We have transplanted livers in more than one person, who were taking “natural supplements” that were actually toxic to the liver. I’ve seen chemo started way too late, as people desperate to save their lives, look for alternatives.

The thing about chemo, is that it’s completely brutal, almost barbaric, yet it’s what we got that works. I’m not an oncology nurse, I’m a transplant nurse, my experience with oncology is through providing dialysis once the kidneys get injured through chemo. I’m a Med-surg nurse, so I take care of people who have had liver resections in the face of liver cancer or a “whipple” surgery in the face of pancreatic cancer. We also deal with certain types of plastic reconstruction after radiation burns. I see a lot of cancer, a lot of cancer survivors

On the oncology floors, they also see a lot of death

People go through a lot to be healed, and there’s few guarantees.

Still, the sheer fantasy of essential oils and herbal compounds as a cancer treatment is disturbing, because cancer treatments may be barbaric, but cancer itself is as well. A complete betrayal of ones own body.

[nolabear]

34. Each person should have the right to say what happens to their body.

It’s hard. It’s terrible to see people make choices we think are going to harm them, and even worse to see the charlatans who take them thrive.

I’m sorry you suffer. When I was a therapist I did too, seeing such things. But they have that right, and must.

[Johnny2X2X]

40. They do have the right

But hucksters out to earn a buck do not have the right to peddle garbage as a cure for cancer. You have people dying because some website told them to buy their herbs that will make deadly Chemo unnecessary. You have naturopaths who know next to nothing about pharmacology "prescribing" harmful treatments for their "patients."

The problem isn't in desperate people looking for an answer, it's in know nothings who don't have any real answers convincing them they can help.

[nolabear]

41. Abso-freaking-lutely. It's horrific.

I couldn’t agree with you more.

[Solly Mack]

37. Never once - not even for a second - did I consider anything but actual medicine to treat my cancer.

The only woo I wanted was found in the word woozy... from the pain killers I got and needed.

[Xolodno]

38. They read some bullshit by an author...

...who says XYZ cured me! While they don't mention they were probably on Chemo as well. But it wasn't the Chemo it has to be the bullshit and sell more books...particularly to pay for the treatment they got.

[DFW]

42. My wife has had cancer twice now

The second time, it was a rare form called "the murderer," since it is usually fatal. The reason for that is that it is usually never discovered until it is too late. Hers was discovered by pure accident, combined with a lot of vigilance from the first time. The surgeon said it was the first time in over ten years that he gave a prognosis for full recovery without chemo. The first time, she had the full chemo treatment and said it was torture. But she is still here and looks amazing for her age. The quack treatments would have left me a widower years ago. Left up to me, I would inject their sellers with Amazonian tree frog poison.

The only ways to combat cancer are prevention, early detection, and the state of the art treatments developed up to now. Snake oil is for snakes.

[Major Nikon]

46. Compelling evidence