what about rape victims who get pregnant and choose to have it?

[Green_Lantern]

I'm not saying that is what should be done or saying most women who get pregnant through rape choose to have the baby.

But is it being implied that the consensus of women becoming pregnant by rape is to get an abortion?

I hope it isn't implying that rape victims who don't get abortions have something wrong with them.

[CJCRANE]

1. Um..it's pro-*choice*...

That means the decision is for the individual woman to make based on her own feelings and relevant medical opinion.

[seabeyond]

2. CHOICE....nowhere are you seeing anyone saying a woman raped must get an abortion. nt

[Green_Lantern]

25. I know it is a choice but is it being implied that not having the rapist's baby is preferable..

nt

[yardwork]

29. Where is that being implied?

[get the red out]

35. Yes, I missed that memo too

Why wasn't everyone on DU informed of that implication?

[yardwork]

43. Quick! Stop talking about this! It sounds like we're DEMANDING ABORTIONS!!!!!

[CatWoman]

58. WHAT DO WE WANT?

ABORTIONS!!!

WHEN DO WE WANT THEM????

NOW!!!!!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

154. I'll one up you: GAY ABORTIONS!!!!! WHEN DO WE WANT THEM???? NOW!!!!! nt

[CatWoman]

236. *snort*

just saw your sig line

[renie408]

201. It is obviously implied NOWHERE, which is why the OP ceased to respond to this line of questioning.

[Marrah_G]

230. and I responded to the poster

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1176665

[Marrah_G]

229. My friend, it has been implied, but not by everyone

I'm not going to go find a bunch of links but I definitely came away with that feeling on more then one occasion this week and yes, a couple of times I did reply to those people. People mean well, but sometimes make insensitive remarks.

[Marrah_G]

231. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1176665

[muriel_volestrangler]

237. No, that doesn't imply an abortion is preferable

It says that a woman might always feel pain about being reminded.

[Marrah_G]

238. It might not imply it to you

But it certainly did to me.

[seabeyond]

55. most people on du get what choice is. i have yet to hear it suggest something wrong with the woman

if she chooses to keep the rapists baby. i think you are creating something that is not and has not been there. i have to wonder why, cause after listening to the shit hurled at women from men, i am really tired of this fuckin game.

[Spazito]

56. Please provide a link where DUers "implied that not having the...

rapist's baby is preferable...". I have not seen anything of the sort on here and without proof of your contention I have to call it bullshit, utter bullshit.

[Marrah_G]

232. here is one example of an unitentionally hurtful post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1176665

[Ken Burch]

91. No it isn't.

What is being said is that no woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy caused by rape to term. That is totally different from saying that "not having the rapist's baby&quot btw, it's not "the rapist's baby". To say that it is implies that the woman he's raped somehow isn't actually the mother or potential mother-and it also implies that the rapist has the right to play a role in such a child's upbringing, a role that would naturally bring him into constant contact with his victim-please tell me I'm wrong to think you would favor anything that barbaric).

[metalbot]

117. There is an implicit judgement there

When you say "no woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy caused by rape to term", there's an inherent judgement there. Let me rephrase it: "Carrying a rapist's baby to term could be a horrible thing, and no woman should be forced to do so".

With that rephrasing, can you really see no implicit judgement?

[Ken Burch]

119. No, I don't see any implicit judgement there.

Saying that a woman shouldn't be forced to carry a rape pregnancy to term AGAINST HER WISHES is nothing at all like saying that women should actually be discouraged from carrying such a pregnancy to term. Nobody is saying that women should have abortions in this case whether or not they wish to.

It is demagogic to refer to such a child as "a rapist's baby". The rapist merely forced his reproductive fluid into his victim's body. That can't be compared to voluntary fatherhood at all, and it is completely unacceptable to ever imply that it would be alright for a rapist to play a parental role in the life of a child caused by his violent act. That's not much different than letting a mugger decide how much medical care or physical therapy his recovering victim was to receive, or allowing a murder to give the eulogy at his victim's funeral.

[stevenleser]

178. No there isn't, unless you ignore the phrase "Should be forced to" nt

[lies and propaganda]

114. I will not only imply it, but would 100% choose abortion if I got pregnant from violence.

I am not a big enough person that i could look at my child and not have horrible memories and stigmas that would be so unfair to them to hold.

[get the red out]

3. Nothing for them either

I'm quite sure the Republicans would not want any kind of healthcare for mother or child, or any social programs that could make their lives easier. And the Mom will probably always pay more taxes than Mitt Romney!

Democrats aren't for denial of choice, they are pro-choice. No one suggests taking her choice away, from what I can see.

[patrice]

9. 1++++++++

[pnwmom]

4. Someone just posted that 30% of women do so but the terrible thing was

apparently 31 states have laws allowing the rapist father to seek custody or visitation.

[Aristus]

50. Um...

wouldn't the fact that the guy is a rapist pretty much disqualify him from any parental privileges?

[NotThisTime]

69. No, it's up to a judge to determine if and what parental rights they can exercise

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/04/10/parental-rights-for-rapists

[metalbot]

118. To be fair...

Some of those laws are intended to allow for statutory rape offenders to be parents.

If a 20 year old impregnates a 16 year old in Illinois, that's rape. If that was a consensual encounter, I have a hard time believing that simply because of the age difference that you would disallow any form of visits to the father. I'm not suggesting that the "rapist father" necessarily SHOULD get visitation rights, but that a court should look at this and see if he should. 20 year old boyfriend of 16 year old? Potential parental rights. 45 year old who talks a 15 year old into sleeping with him? Not so much.

Or are we only referring to "legitimate rape" cases?

[patrice]

5. Anger should never be underestimated. That said, I think anyone who can do as you

suggest (and not covertly punish themselves and/or the child) should be respected for their CHOICE.

[Lucy Goosey]

6. I think the choice should be the woman's

...and not the government's.

I think most pro-choice people genuinely are pro-CHOICE; we would be opposed to the state forcing abortions as we are to the state forcing unwanted pregnancies. A woman who is pregnant because of a rape has some really difficult horrible choices, but the choices should be hers.

[Ken Burch]

7. Well, Akin would damn sure be against giving 'em welfare.

n/t.

And if women had more than one kid through rape, Akin would probably give 'em the death penalty.

[seabeyond]

8. and another thing. i want a law that IF a woman is raped and preg, the rapist does NOT

get parent privileges. i want the woman and the child protected.

[patrice]

14. 1+++++++ and shouldn't that include a fine anyway too? I would say no child-support, just a fine,

because child-support enforces this continuing encumberence on the relationship between the mother and child.

We want that guy out of the mother's life, but he should have to bear at least some of the financial responsibility anyway, so a fine?

[seabeyond]

17. i could go with that. nt

[patrice]

34. I'd want that iron-clad. He. is. NOT. the. father. period! & the fine cannot be included in bankrupt

cy or anything. If he doesn't pay it, it follows him to his grave and from there to his estate.

[patrice]

65. ... and the "his estate" bit is non-negotiable too. There are concrete real world reasons for that.

[kelly1mm]

92. Is this if someone is convicted of rape or just accused? Does it include

statutory rape as well? What if the mother is the statutory rapist (ie 19 year old mom, 16 year old dad)? Once these issues are fleshed out, I think I could agree with your proposal.

[enlightenment]

103. Most of the states with statutes like this

concern convicted rapists - many narrow that to people who are convicted of first or second degree rape (potentially problematic). Many have statutes that address statutory rape as well, regardless of the gender of the rapist.

Unfortunately, some states actually go after minor males who are victims of statutory rape for child support when their rapists delivers. Bizarre and unfair, imo.

[Heather MC]

93. That would be hard to inforce if...

the women never reported the rape. then the rapest shows up later wanting parental rights, and she says but he raped me. You some Jack ass Repugnant judge would treat her like she was lying just gain the courts sympathy. That is the Republican party platform/ belief women lie about being raped, rape babies don't exist ergo the woman is lying in custody court. Sick world.. Although I would consider donating tons of money to the first Congress or Senate person that writes that bill

[seabeyond]

94. yes. i recognize the pit falls. and i am all for protecting a fathers right.

i also understand the implication that a woman would haev to report rape and many women do not for different reasons, and i think it is wrong for a woman to be forced to report.

i think that there are some clever people that can figure out language and set something up to protect a victim.

[kelly1mm]

98. Because women NEVER lie about being raped, right? Let me tell you about a client I had.

Parents were together for 1.5 years. In the middle of the relationship, she got pregnant. Dad went to the prenatal appointments (important later as this was in the medical records) lived with the mom, paid bills (important again), etc. 2 weeks before the birth, they break up. Dad show up to the hospital, mom says he is not the father so he could not see the baby OR sign the birth certificate. Dad sues for custody.

Mom responds by claiming 1) she barely knew the guy, 2) he raped her at a party when he got her drunk.

Until the trial (5 months after the birth) dad was not allowed to see the child per mom's instructions.

At trial, the first witness I called was her. She repeated her story. Great for us! Then the medical records showing dad at the prenatal appointments, then the bank records showing utility payments by my client when the lived together. Then the Facebook postings with all the pictures of them together and the baby updates. Then I call her parents (who heard thee prior testimony as I did not invoke the rule on witnesses) and they told the truth - that she was mad at him for the breakup and was punishing him with the child.

Dad now (last 2+ years) has full custody (legal and physical) and mom has supervised visitation.

[Heather MC]

109. Your case is a perfect example of why a law like that

would be hard to word correctly and inforced. Also the father in this case was able to produce evidence she was lying, and she lied big time. But what about the merky gray area. they are friends they are dating but no sex then one night he decides to take it.

Now for whatever reason she decides not to report the rape but finds out later he got her pregnant.

Because of women like the one you described the courts are less likely to believe real cases if pregnancy rape. It is unfortunate.

[kelly1mm]

110. It would be very difficult (and I would argue wrong) if their was no conviction

to craft a law denying alleged rapists their parental rights.

It is disturbing as I as well aware of the problem of non-stranger rape and the problems inherent in reporting and prosecuting it. However, our system has many examples of this type of thing summed up by the phrase "rather a 100 guilty men go free than one Innocent man be convicted".

[smirkymonkey]

112. Rapists should have no visitation ritghts to the woman or the child. If it is proven that they are

truly guily, they should be locked up for a long, long time and never have access to thier victims or the victim's child. Their crime should nullify any parental rights whatsoever.

[catbyte]

169. but it doesn't-rapists ARE being awarded visitation

[hlthe2b]

10. Oh, please...

I really can't believe a DUer just wrote that. I realize that you are not female, but geebus. Try for one moment to imagine the horrific implications of a woman being raped, dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, and the trauma of both haunting you for decades. Some women will choose to keep the child. Others choose not to for a multitude of reasons, but certainly including those that most compassionate people could understand.

How you could conclude that there is ANY implication that the women who chose to go through with the pregnancy have "something wrong with them" is beyond me. The issue is it should be HER CHOICE and government, politicians (and others) should have NO say.

[patrice]

18. Maybe you read a different OP than I did. Green Lantern did not imply that there is "something wrong

with them", but is concerned that others will think that.

Look at the thread and see how others are concerned that that assumption "there's something wrong with such mothers" could lead to other problems, socially and with benefits of various kinds.

[hlthe2b]

20. Oh, bullshit

[patrice]

27. What's the matter, Green Lantern not part of some clique here? Issue-ownership? Or is it just

your day to do the devil's advocate thing?

[hlthe2b]

30. once again....

[pnwmom]

122. I agree with Patrice. Your reaction to the OP makes no sense. n/t

[hlthe2b]

124. You are clearly in the minority here

Very ugly insinuations in this poster's OP. Very ugly. Ignore it if you choose.

[pnwmom]

125. You're projecting. n/t

[hlthe2b]

127. and you are inexplicably defending those who would accuse pro-choice liberal/progressives

Last edited Thu Aug 23, 2012, 08:00 AM - Edit history (2)

of attacking those who MAKE the choice to have a child after rape--thus advancing that RW meme that pro-choice equates to pro-abortion and "anti-life". You really need to think about what you are doing and exactly who you want to defend.

[pnwmom]

128. That is not what the OP was doing. You are reading way too much into it for some reason. n/t

[hlthe2b]

129. You need only read this thread to realize your interpretation is the minority view

And no one here need apologize for NOT allowing RW anti-choice talking points to be used against us.

[Green_Lantern]

130. I didn't say all pro-choice supporters favored rape victims getting abortions...

I asked if it is being implied that women impregnated should get abortions.

I didn't say everyone who is pro-choice implies that.

[seabeyond]

133. " implied that women impregnated should get abortions." there is no difference and proved hlthe2bs

point.

[seabeyond]

134. " implied that women impregnated should get abortions." that is exactly what HE was doing in

his own words, right there to read.

find anywhere anyone who is defending the right for a woman to get an abortion is implying that a woman not be allowed to not get an abortion. what fuckin sense does that make.

[yardwork]

144. I'm seeing the exact same things in the OP's posts and so are many others.

Take a look at the entire thread, including recent posts by the OP. It's clear that the OP believes that he knows best.

Check out http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1186254 for example. The OP is confused. It's not up to him to decide why women have abortions and take it on himself to take away their reasons. The law provides women with the right to make that decision for themselves, for any reason. That's what we're struggling to defend in this country - the right of women to choose whether or not to have an abortion.

[Green_Lantern]

146. So, you are taking a stand against providing more support for mothers?

Because it removes their reason to choose abortion?

[seabeyond]

150. it is this bullshit that is being called out. what a fuckin offensive comment for you to make. nt

[yardwork]

155. How do you know it removes anybody's reason for choosing an abortion?

You assume that you know why women choose to have abortions. I believe that you are wrong. In any case it is none of your business, or mine. Our opinions aren't relevant. The reasons are the private business of the woman making the choice.

Your belief that you know why women have abortions and you know how to "fix" what you perceive as a problem is offensive. It is patriarchal. You - a man - are insisting that you know better than any woman why she is choosing to have an abortion.

[pnwmom]

148. If some women are having abortions ONLY for financial reasons, shouldn't

a caring community help those women go through the pregnancies as they wish to?

You can believe in women's absolute free choice, as I do, and -- at the same time -- believe that society should help pregnant women through their pregnancies (and beyond) if that is their choice.

[seabeyond]

151. believe that society should help pregnant women through their pregnancies

please show me the liberal, or anyone on this board that does not support helping those in need to feed our children.

one will do.

[pnwmom]

157. There's at least one example in this thread.

Yardwork, said, of Green Lantern: "It's not up to him to decide why women have abortions and take it on himself to take away their reasons."

And when G.L. asked about some women needing financial support to go through a pregnancy, Yardwork said, "How do you know it removes anybody's reason for choosing an abortion?"

OF COURSE some women (not all, just some) get abortions because they simply can't afford a pregnancy. You know that, I know that, everyone knows that. (Even Yardwork, if s/he wants to be honest.)

If helping them afford a pregnancy is taking away their reason, then I'm all for it. And I don't understand why everybody isn't.

[seabeyond]

165. he is making an argument, fabricating an argument that is NOT there. did yardwork say that

she does not want to help poor people that need help, or refuse social service? of course she did not.

[pnwmom]

168. Yardwork denied G.L.'s point that some women have abortions for financial reasons.

S/he said this, when GL asked about some women needing financial support:

"How do you know it removes anybody's reason for choosing an abortion?"

OF COURSE IT WOULD. Not for all women, but for a significant number, financial concerns are primary.

And yardwork also said this:

"It's not up to him to decide why women have abortions and take it on himself to take away their reasons."

If we can help women keep WANTED pregnancies by helping them to afford them, then we should.

[yardwork]

172. LOL! No, I did not say that.

There's a very big difference between what you claim that I said and what you quote me as saying right here in your post. If you can't tell the difference, then there's no point in continuing this discussion with you.

[pnwmom]

177. yardwork, I cut and pasted your quotes from #144 and #155.

Maybe you should read what you wrote.

[yardwork]

181. Yes, you quoted me accurately, but you characterized my statements inaccurately.

I never said that society should not help pregnant women. I said - and I'm happy to repeat - that it's nobody else's business why any woman chooses to have an abortion or chooses to carry her baby to term. Nobody's business but the woman herself.

You may think that you know why people have abortions. Green Lantern may think that he knows why women have abortions. I may think I know. But none of that matters. It is irrelevant. Women currently have the right to choose to have an abortion and they don't have to tell anybody why they made that choice.

It is not a problem that women choose to have abortions. The law says it is a not a problem. I think that's what is bothering you and Green Lantern. You want to prevent abortions. That may be a laudable goal but it's none of your business.

[pnwmom]

194. Neither GL nor I said it was anyone else's "business" why a particular woman decides to

have an abortion.

But it is true, despite what you clearly said, that SOME women do have abortions only for financial reasons, and I think we, as a society, should be helping them to avoid that kind of crisis.

I think you and sea beyond are twisting what GL has said and are hounding him, and I don't understand why. As a fully pro-choice woman myself, I think women should be fully supported in whichever direction they choose to go in a pregnancy -- and it sounds to me that that's all GL is saying, too.

[ieoeja]

206. yardwork is clearly taking exception to why, not what.

Yardwork obviously has no opposition to give financial support to poor, pregnant women.

But he (and I and others) oppose the stated reason why. Or, rather, to the fact that this reason was even stated. Anti-abortion people's first choice of weapon is an attempt to make pregnant women feel guilty. Many of us don't just support choice, we support the people who make that choice by fighting this bullshit.

[pnwmom]

211. Where was anyone trying to make pregnant women feel guilty?

Do you have a link for that?

[yardwork]

222. Thank you. I'm a woman.

I hope that I would feel the same way if I were a man. I believe that I would, as I know many men, including my sons, who feel the same way that I do about this. And, after all, it is the law of the land. For now.

[seabeyond]

170. what does social service has to do with rape? that is with any preg. that is being a DEMOCRAT

for real? you are really suggesting this is the argument.

why would you support a poster that suggests pro choice is shaming women to get an abortion? where the hell is that coming from

[pnwmom]

174. Where has GL suggested that pro-choice shames women into getting abortions?

Where the hell is that coming from?

[seabeyond]

176. every. single. fuckin. post. of. HIS. nt

[pnwmom]

180. Right. Nowhere that you can link to. n/t

[redqueen]

185. +1

The OP was bad enough... I should have known better than to read this thread.

[seabeyond]

188. this thread is disgusting with the oh so smart man telling naive women what to think feel and

do with rape.

[Green_Lantern]

226. your reading comprehension is lacking

I never once said what a rape victim should or shouldn't do.

[Green_Lantern]

158. I was lectured for saying that

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021180403#post144

[seabeyond]

166. you are lectured for saying anyone is arguing that a woman must get an abortion

and for stating that anyone on this thread would oppose help social services. you are damn right. NO ONE has EVER said anything like this. you fabricate an evil and pin it on people in this thread and it is disgusting.

and you refuse to back down and say you are fuckin wrong. continue with your spiel like a damn repug and the males insisting they know what is best for us, what we think, what we say.

it is bullshit.

[yardwork]

152. Who said they shouldn't? Nice straw man argument there.

Edit word

[DURHAM D]

221. The OP is a dog whistle.

And his (and his one supporter's?) responses are all straw man responses.

I don't know about you but I am way to old to play Whac-A-Mole?

[yardwork]

33. +1

[obamanut2012]

97. +1

[yellowcanine]

208. In a Fox News kind of way the OP did just that.

There are better ways to raise an issue than to invent implications. That is called the "straw man" approach and it is the way trolls and Fox News work.

[Green_Lantern]

37. You put words in my mouth and make my case...

You rightfully say:

I realize that you are not female, but geebus. Try for one moment to imagine the horrific implications of a woman being raped, dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, and the trauma of both haunting you for decades.


A reasonable person can see this and wonder why anyone would want to go through that?

[treestar]

53. If you are raised in the Catholic Church

And some others - if it gets to you, you might feel too guilty having an abortion and might be better off having the child with adoption or keeping it even. Even if raped, people going on how it is a human life, I could see someone feeling scared, like their soul was in peril - none of which liberals approve as such, but that could be how the person reaches that conclusion.

[Marrah_G]

233. Hi there- Your post is what the OP is talking about

I am a child of rape.

My birth mother looks at me with love

I am not a painful reminder.

She is not haunted by me.

We are both pro-choice and we are both glad she chose to have me.

We are both sad however that due to the stigmatism at the time and her age that she was forced to give me up.

She doesn't look at me and picture him, she looks at me and sees herself.

[hlthe2b]

239. No. I respect you, Marrah, but my post is NOT what the OP is all about

I respect the choice to keep a child. I truly believe that I would make that same decision. But, I DO understand those who can not. I hope that you too can, despite how hard that must strike at your own very personal and much deserved feelings on the matter.

I fully respect the decision of a rape survivor who finds themselves pregnant regardless what that might be. THAT is what PRO-CHOICE is all about. I think I have made that very clear. The OP, on the otherhand is using RW talking points to suggest that Pro-Choice Libs are UNLIKELY to be able to understand or respect a decision to keep the child. That is a very destructive meme used by the RW and one which pro-choice women should not have to (and in fact, are NOT going to) tolerate.

[Marrah_G]

240. I am very, very pro-choice

As is my mother.

I would ask that people just stop and think before posting.

If I were to tell my story here on DU and not include how pro-choice I am, I shudder to think about what the reaction would be. I assume I would probably be called an anti-choice troll spreading rw memes.

The OP was speaking out in defense of people like myself and my mother, but instead of people listening and responding thoughtfully, the OP was immediately jumped on, called a liar, had their motives put into question, etc.

[hlthe2b]

243. You assume that I and others do not have first hand experience as well...

That is a very unfortunate (and incorrect) assumption. Please realize that many do not chose to discuss personal matters on public, if somewhat anonymous message boards. Thus, I'd likewise encourage you to pause before posting such assumptions.

I VEHEMENTLY disagree that most here would consider you anti-choice for defending the choice to have a child--including one the outcome of rape. I think you assume the worst of your feminist and Pro-Choice Liberal/Progressives here with that conclusion. If that were to occur while I was in "eye-shot" I can assure you I would call them on that.

Pro-Choice means respect for whatever the choice may be. Surely on that we can agree. I think we should leave it there.

[Green_Lantern]

246. my OP never mentions pro-choice liberals...

The OP wasn't targeted at anyone.

[hlthe2b]

247. Your post speaks for itself.

[hifiguy]

11. I don't even want to think about the psychology involved

in a decision like that, but as a 100% pro-choicer, it's none of my cotton-pickin' business what the woman decides to do. That is a question for her to answer.

[ananda]

12. What about it?

It's her body, it's her choice.

[fried eggs]

13. The question you should have asked:

Will republicans cut programs that those families, and other lower and middle class families, depend on?

[DURHAM D]

15. You are just making up shit or

perhaps you have confused what you read on DU with what you read on your right wing websites.

[seabeyond]

19. "You are just making up shit"... yup. nt

[GoCubsGo]

23. No kidding.

I have not seen even one post here at DU that implies all rape victims must get abortions. Only that it it the victim, herself, who should be the only one who gets to make the choice in how she wants to deal with her situation.

[DURHAM D]

31. It looks to me like the OP (Matt) is conflicted on this issue and

has falsely assigned the same attributes to members of DU.

How does that happen?

[hlthe2b]

32. Ask Patrice...

[DURHAM D]

38. LOL - no thanks

[patrice]

44. It happens because OP doesn't know or accept that there is one and only one way to

understand things and if you don't "get it" exploratory questions will be punished by DU packs of various kinds.

That's because out of the many ways any given word can be understood, let alone the millions of ways that combinations of words can be understood, some DU members have deemed themselves the determining authoritarians on the sole semantic content of any post here.

Sound fascistic? It is.

[patrice]

47. I will admit that OP could be fishing for something and I have a pretty good idea what that might

be.

So, let's see if it shows up.

[Green_Lantern]

54. tell me if it shows up because I don't know what you mean...

nt

[patrice]

62. I have to go do laundry and stuff. That point-of-vew may avoid a thread I'm in anyway.

[Marrah_G]

234. Really, because I have certainly gotten that feeling the last few days

As both the victim of rape and a child of rape, I can't tell you how difficult the last few days have been.

There have been many insensitive, but unintentional, remarks that hurt, even on DU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. No the consensus is that women SHOULD HAVE THE CHOICE

some women chose to have the baby and raise that baby.

Some women chose to have the baby and give it up for adoption.

Some women chose an abortion.

Choice C is what the right wants to get rid off.

[Zoeisright]

21. Oh for God's sake.

IT IS UP TO THE WOMAN TO DECIDE WHAT HAPPENS WITH HER BODY. Do you really not get that???

[Capt. Obvious]

22. Do you know which night she's scheduled to speak at the RNC?

[hlthe2b]

26. what a foul and disgusting accusation to make against other DUers. Sick

[seabeyond]

60. pretty disgusting. wtf is the problem here. not only getting the garbage from repugs

but we get to see the ugly of it here.

[DURHAM D]

68. DU is full of Repugs and "Libertarians".

[yardwork]

71. One would think that Libertarians would be in favor of choice but I've noticed that they're not.

When it comes to abortion suddenly Libertarians think that the government should be telling women what to do with their own bodies.

[Green_Lantern]

78. Funny...I think the pro-choice crowd here buys into the libertarian notion..

That true choice is possible when the issue is economic security.

[seabeyond]

79. have you EVER seen anyone suggest that we should not take care of those that are in need. ANOTHER

false fuckin argument.

keep back pedalling finding an issue to pin on us. what is your fuckin problem.

[yardwork]

80. The "pro-choice crowd here" on DU should be 100% of members.

Are you saying that you are not part of the "pro-choice crowd here?"

[Green_Lantern]

83. if you say so..

You decide.

[obamanut2012]

102. Seriously

How else to read that post?

[CJCRANE]

86. I think the above post was sarcasm, maybe in poor taste

but sarcasm nonetheless.

[hlthe2b]

95. Then perhaps the hide will reinforce on the poster (and others) that they can not assume

That is what emoticons are for... Besides the fact, the poster had a warning and did not come back to clarify or edit--even though my response to them sat for a considerable amount of time before the alert/hide occurred.

Apparently, the jury, likewise, did not agree with your assumption.

[CJCRANE]

101. That's fair enough...

it was over the line, and it wasn't clear if it was a hyperbolic broadbrush attack against all DUers or against the ridiculousness of the OP.

[yardwork]

28. Your post sounds very insensitive to me. Maybe you didn't intend it that way.

Approximately 30% of women who become pregnant as a result of rape choose to carry the baby to term. I can't even imagine how difficult this must be, let alone their courage and hard work for the rest of their lives as they care for that baby and raise him or her (not "it," please) into adulthood and share in their lives.

"The consensus of women?" I don't even understand what you mean by that. Women are not a monolithic group that has to reach "consensus" on decisions about whether or not to give birth. Those decisions must be made by individuals.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your post, but it makes me mad.

[Green_Lantern]

41. you are misunderstanding my post...

nt

[yardwork]

42. Ok. Explain it then. It sounds like you're accusing women of demanding abortions.

It sounds like a right-wing talking point to me. If you didn't mean it that way, then why did you say what you said?

[DURHAM D]

48. This

[Green_Lantern]

49. I didn't say women demanded abortion...

I asked a fucking question.

If it is being implied that the majority of women who get pregnant by rape want abortions?

[yardwork]

59. And what the fuck would be wrong with that implication?

According to what little is known about rape victims, considering that the vast majority of them never report their rapists to the authorities to avoid just the kind of insensitivity that is all over your OP, approximately 30% of rape victims who become pregnant choose to carry their babies to term. That means that 70% of them choose to have abortions, which is their fucking right and the law of the land.

[gatorboy]

85. You don't like women very much do you?

Just an observation! And odd for a superhero.

[Green_Lantern]

131. how does what I said show dislike for women?

Please clarify.

[neverforget]

115. What fucking business of yours is it if a woman wants an abortion?

Are you going to feed, clothe, house, educate and protect the child?

[Green_Lantern]

132. I said nothing about whether or not women should get abortions...

But I reject the idea that it is always a true choice.

[seabeyond]

135. you are right. 77% leaders for anti abortion are men. you are right, the choice is being taken away

[yardwork]

139. It's none of your business how women make that choice. The law provides them with the choice.

[Green_Lantern]

141. I don't support criminalizing abortion but making them rare...

By addressing issues that make women want them.

Such as lack of resources to raise a child.

[yardwork]

143. That's none of your business. It's not up to you to decide why women choose to have abortions.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about the law. It currently allows for women - not you - to decide whether or not they want to have an abortion. They don't have to give their reasons. It's clear that this bothers you. Tough luck. The law gives this choice to women, not you.

[Green_Lantern]

147. you are misstating my position...

All I'm saying is we need more support for people to raise kids.

I'm not advocating paternalism.

[seabeyond]

153. "we need more support for people to raise kids." who doesnt support? strawman

you are creating a false argument and it is highly offensive

it is bullshit and offensive you feeling some kind of superiority in an argument you fabricate.

[yardwork]

156. +1

[seabeyond]

163. damnit if this man is not sounding like every other man that lectures ME on

my health right along with the rest of the men.

the more he talks, the more he sounds just like the fuckers.

[yardwork]

167. Yep. Same exact words and behavior.

Check out where I get called "naive" for saying it's none of his damn business downthread.

Right out of The Handmaid's Tale.

[seabeyond]

171. the naive is what took it to this point. fuck... welcome to du. nt

[Green_Lantern]

162. superiority in reading skills....

I didn't say anyone opposes that.

[seabeyond]

175. no. most everyone gets what you are saying. and most everyone is calling you the fuck out

for what you are saying. and YOU keep pushing it farther and farther.

[Green_Lantern]

189. No...you are grandstanding and putting words into my mouth

For daring to question your opinion.

[seabeyond]

190. bullshit. you throw out a lie as a truth in accusatory manner and want us to defend the fuckin lie.

and regardless of how many people on this thread called bullshit to the lie, and said CHOICE means to have or not have, you ignore it and continue your fabricated lie.

[Green_Lantern]

196. you need to twist my words to make your argument...

nt

[seabeyond]

198. not really. look at the number of people saying the exact same thing to you. you need to run away

from owning what you are doing in this thread. it is disgusting, truly. but you even refuse to consider how offensive your posts are to women, women that get it, women that know you do not know shit about rape.

[Green_Lantern]

203. I really don't see what I've said offensive

I'm not being argumentative.

I'd really like to know.

[seabeyond]

205. of course you do not see it as offensive. i get that. nor does ryan, akin or any of the other

jerks.

[Green_Lantern]

210. twist twist

Keep on twisting.

[seabeyond]

213. you throw out bullshit and then cannot even address it. weak. so weak.

[Green_Lantern]

215. you must like the song Twist and Shout

nt

[seabeyond]

217. ya, you cannot defend what you have done in this thread. the people hurt and falsely accused by you

the ugly.

so now you are playing this stupid, childish game. bully.... and i mean that literally, bully for you.

[catbyte]

164. Try to see it from our perspective

You get pregnant as the result of a rape. Besides having a 24/7 reminder of what was the most terrifying, painful, humiliating event of your life, your rapist sues you for visitation rights and the judge agrees. How would that make you feel? To be chained to your rapist for the rest of your life. Not to mention how screwed up the kid is going to be. If you don't have a uterus you can't imagine. It's like trying to describe the color red to a blind person. Men have no say in this. Until that fetus can survive on its own it's not a human being but a part of ME and I make the decisions, NOT YOU.

[muriel_volestrangler]

241. Your question in the OP was different

In the OP, you ask:

But is it being implied that the consensus of women becoming pregnant by rape is to get an abortion?

I hope it isn't implying that rape victims who don't get abortions have something wrong with them.

You asked about a 'consensus'. The point is that this is about an individual decision by each woman, not a 'consensus'. If your question was "do the majority of women who get pregnant by rape want abortions?", then you should have said that (and there isn't anything about an 'implication' there - it's a fact, that can be found out; I don't know why you've put 'imply' in, twice).

And you definitely should not have followed the question with the "something wrong with them" sentence. Even if we now interpret your OP question as meaning "the majority of women ... want abortions", why on earth would you leap from an answer of 'yes, more than 50% of pregnant raped woman want an abortion' to "someone may be implying that there's something wrong with those whose decision is not in the majority". What kind of people do you take DUers for? Do you think we say that anyone making a personal choice, who is in the minority, "has something wrong with them?" On this or on any subject?

[Green_Lantern]

248. Notice I never said I was refering to DUers....

nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

249. So why did you post it on DU?

You didn't say who you thought could be implying it - but you posted it here, for us to answer. Without telling us who you were talking about, what is the point of this thread?

Notice you've never said you weren't referring to DUers. Notice you're never say who you were referring to. Until you do make that clear, you post looks like an attempt to weasel out of what you've been implying about us.

[Green_Lantern]

251. My mistake was in not making myself clear enough...

I get that now.

[patrice]

57. I know someone who met a young lady recently whom, if I take her at her word, is more than willing

to take certain chances with her body, for a specified outcome, shall we say.

To say that this is none of our business is naive to say the least.

Some people are different; I believe the slang is "special."

[Marrah_G]

235. ~facepalm~

I feel as though every single person responding to this thread has COMPLETELY misunderstood what the poster is saying.

I'm going to try and be very clear here.

I am not a burden.

I am not something to haunt my mother.

I am not a traumatic reminder of pain to her.

I am not something unwanted and just tolerated.

Choice is choice is choice.

I think I need to turn off DU for a bit as this topic is once again becoming really painful and I don't want to cry at work.

You guys are jumping all over a person who is just speaking truth and trying to remind people that sometimes that choice means giving birth to a child and loving that child just as much as previous or future children.

[DevonRex]

36. You know who I'm pissed off at in that case?

Say it's a girl in a Catholic high school. Would they let her graduate with her class or brand her as a Jezebel since they don't "know" she was raped or just made it up? I bet they wouldn't let her march in with her graduating class. I bet they wouldn't believe her.

Same thing if she were in some fundy school. They'd kick her out and talk about her behind her back.

[cr8tvlde]

39. A False Equivalent...and a War on Women Bait.

Nothing to see here, except for one word....Choice. Now, move on.

[LynneSin]

40. Here's my 2 cents - this should all be 'NONE OF OUR BUSINESS'

and the caps is not directed to you specifically but just a general attitude.

When a woman is raped it is none of our business what she does or how she resolves things should she find herself pregnant as a result.

But we as civilians what we can is the following:

• We can make sure that we have good healthcare available so the woman can get the care she needs to recover from this trauma. This for no matter what the rape survivor chooses because after all - it is her choice.
  
• We can make sure that healthcare also provides mental healthcare. After a rape it's more than just the body that might get damaged but the mind too and a rape/incest survivor should have access to good Mental Healthcare so she can deal with the trauma.
  
• We can make sure we provide enough funding for our local police force. Not just so they can find the asshole that did this but if we had enough policeforce coverage perhaps there would be less rape happening.
  
• We should make sure that our hospitals have Emergency Contraceptive available and provide it for the women who are raped. Personally I think EC is a much better choice especially if the woman goes to the emergency room right after the event. EC is effect up to 72 hours after unprotected sex (including rape) and much less traumatic than going thru an abortion.
  

Instead we have politicians who want to defund healthcare plans including mental health programs. They want to cut funding for our police forces and they want to ban emergency contraceptive (which is nothing more than a high dosage of birth control pills). For many politicians,mostly of the GOP persuasion all they care about is that IF a fetus is a result of any sexual contact whether wanted or unwanted that the fetus is the ONLY focus of concern and screw everyone else.

[Green_Lantern]

46. that is another point...the issue has become rape and abortion

It allows politicians to talk about wedge issues and social issues rather than look at the deeper issues creating the problems.

[smirkymonkey]

113. +10,000

[LadyHawkAZ]

45. Choose?

Not "required by law"?

If you thought it through enough to use the word "choose" then you already have your answer.

[reflection]

51. No, it's not being implied.

I don't know where you would get that idea. Granted, I haven't read every post, but I can honestly say I've not seen one person intimate that if a woman chose to carry to term it would be a bad thing. Respectfully, you may be reading too much into the discussions.

[yardwork]

61. The true agenda is revealed a little more in this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1180786

[reflection]

72. I didn't read anything Machiavellian into it

a little tone-deaf perhaps, but I'm guilty of that sometimes...

[yardwork]

73. It's far less subtle than Machiavelli. This has all the subtlety of a trainwreck.

[FightForMichigan]

52. More common than you think

My partner was talking about the Akin issue at work when a coworker spoke up.

"It's good to know I can't get pregnant from rape. I guess that means my three-year-old doesn't exist."

My partner was stunned and didn't know if she had said the wrong thing and offended her. Her coworker said no, she was offended by Akin and his belittling of rape victims, even the ones who share his "pro-life" values.

[JoePhilly]

63. The only "wrong" thing is that people OUTSIDE the situation want to pass laws telling the woman

what she must do legally.

The decision about what to do should belong to the woman and her doctor. Whatever choice she makes should be legal, accepted and supported.

But some want to create laws that would limit her choices in this situation. Making sure that a woman who does not want to carry the child of a rapist to term does not mean that another woman should not be allowed to make the choice to have the baby of her rapist.

And when those choices are pitted against each other ... it reminds me of how some religious folks find my unwillingness to follow their religious dogma as an a attack by me on them.

Making sure that a woman can legally abort a pregnancy which is the result of rape does NOTHING to prevent a woman who was raped to carry that baby to term. Each should get to make their own choice.

And the GOP hates that idea.

[Bluenorthwest]

64. The word you need here is not 'imply' but 'infer'

The writer implies the reader infers. The other word you need to look up is this: Choice.

[patrice]

67. Some people don't think we REALLY mean Choice. & Good! catch on imply vs. infer!

[NotThisTime]

66. Then that is their choice, just like women who under law are allowed to make a different choice

It is up to no one except the woman what she wants to do with her body under these extreme situations, nobody gets to sit in judgement.

[Quantess]

70. Good for them, if that is what they choose to do.

People really need to mind their own business a little more, when it comes to someone else's pregnancy (not directed at you, Green Lantern).

[Green_Lantern]

74. Pro-choice on abortion is mythical in the US...

The Irish Sinn Fein party(not exactly right-wing) stated it best when it says it is "opposed to the attitudes and forces in society, which pressurise women to have abortions, and criminalise those who make this decision." http://web.archive.org/web/20071025033401/http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/21360


That includes lack of social resources for families and parenthood.

[Capt. Obvious]

75. "The Irish Sinn Fein party(not exactly right-wing)"

[Ken Burch]

88. Democrats and progressives, as well as nearly ALL "pro-choice" people in the U.S.

are also against those forces.

Please tell me you don't actually believe that the pro-choice movement is trying to MAKE women have abortions.
Women only have that procedure when they truly wish to have it.

Why would you ever have trouble accepting that?

And why would you ever think that anybody here would look down on or attack rape victims who chose NOT to have abortions? Has you ever even heard anybody say anything remotely like that? I mean, on THIS planet?

[Green_Lantern]

136. no, I'm not saying pro-choice groups are forcing women to get abortions

I'm just wondering if there is societal pressure for women to get abortions.

[tnvoter]

142. If you are still looking for the answer to your worldview

it means you are ignoring it.

It's pretty obvious to everyone here that your alleged "pressure to have an abortion" does not exist.
Repeated requests to you to provide evidence of this "pressure" have been ignored.

In fact ,there are many local organizations and hotlines that encourage pregnant teens to consider carrying their unplanned pregnancies to term. I see those billboards and hear the radio ads all the time. If there is any pressure on a unplanned pregnancy, it's coming from the "pro-life" side -- not the pro-choice side.

You are mistaken.

[Ken Burch]

149. I'd say there's still far MORE pressure for women to quit their jobs, stay home, and have kids

At least, if we're talking about middle-class white women.

For women(and men)of color or in poverty, there's simply pressure to die out by whatever means are required.

[redqueen]

193. You should start listening to what PRO-CHOICE WOMEN are saying.

Quoting men from one of the most religious countries in the world doesn't exactly make a whole hell of a lot of sense.

It's none of your fucking business WHY a woman wants to have an abortion.

Poverty and the lack of a social safety net are SEPARATE ISSUES. Stigmas about pregnant women are SEPARATE ISSUES.

When you conflate them with our right to control our own bodies,, you offend ALL PRO-CHOICE WOMEN.

Is that clear?

[muriel_volestrangler]

245. You realise Sinn Fein is saying abortion should only be allowed for rape or grave risk to health?

They're opposed to the woman being criminalised, but not the doctor. They oppose extending the British law (which allows abortion up to 24 weeks, if it's the best option, physically or psychologically, for the woman) to Northern Ireland - where abortion is hardly ever allowed. Sinn Fein is anti-choice - along with the DUP (Ian Paisley's party), who they supported on this. If you think that is 'stating it best', it appears to make you anti-choice too.

[Green_Lantern]

250. no...sorry, I wasn't aware of what the British abortion law did....

I thought Sinn Fein was saying it wouldn't criminalize abortion, period.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. this feels like a made up problem. like you in particular are making up this problem

i have yet to see anyone say that something is wrong with women who don't abort for any reason.

[drm604]

77. Where is that being implied?

I haven't seen or heard anything like that.

[Swede Atlanta]

81. I think we are just making sure there is choice...

I am not going to advocate abortion in the face of rape but suggest it MUST be available to a woman.

[notadmblnd]

82. It's all about choice.

If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant and chooses to keep the child , then fine. If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant as a result and chooses to abort, then fine too. But there is no way on hell that any man (especially a politician) should have any say in what a woman chooses to do with a pregnancy as a result of rape.

[gatorboy]

84. What a terribly odd question.

[Ken Burch]

89. No one was implying that at all, and you know it.

If a rape victim wants to carry her pregnancy to term, everybody here is fine with that. Only a psychopath would object.

Look if you're against abortion, fine, you have the right to be...but don't accuse pro-choice people of holding views you know perfectly well they NEVER hold.

[loyalsister]

90. I hope they have a happy life

Is it not possible that pregnancy through rape gets a lot of attention in the dialogue because it is an obvious example of a situation where many women would very much not want to continue her pregnancy?

The consensus among those of us who are truly pro- choice is that personally carrying the child of a rapist might be one of the worst possible circumstances but it is up to whoever has that experience to decide what to do.

[gollygee]

96. My only concern in this place

is that if Republicans end up successfully forcing women to bear rapists' babies, they had better damn well be ready to help them financially support those babies. And help them with counselling so they can deal with the rape and going through the pregnancy and being tied forever to the rapist thorugh the child. And with the issues that could bring up in parenting.

People who think women should be forced to raise a rapists' baby should be right there financially supporting them. They won't get child support or anything.

But if a woman chooses it by herself, then God bless her, and I wish for her happiness. Only the woman involved knows what the best choice for her is in her specific circumstances and with her specific feelings.

[spanone]

99. it's their choice....

[me b zola]

100. Here is a relevent article from The Declassified Adoptee:

Representative Akin, Representative Freind, Adoptee Rights History: Oh My, Ignorance Abounds!

~snip~


When it came to "having an abortion" or "having an adoption," it was clear that Freind believed that abortion and adoption are two versions of the same decision. Yet another really terrible myth.

Backed heavily by the Pennsylvania Catholic Conference, which still opposes adoptee Equal Access to this day, Freind's 1984 bill was entirely based on myth and an archaic view of adoption, even by 1980's standards. Representative Lashinger said this about Freind's bill, on the House floor,

~more at link~
http://networkedblogs.com/Bbql1

[Frances]

104. Many years ago a friend was raped

A college classmate drugged her without her knowledge and then had sex with her.

The woman was so traumatized that she has not had sex in all these years.

She did have the child, a daughter, whom she gave up for adoption.

A married family member was raped and had the child, whom she kept. Her husband's mother adored this child as did his uncle. The mother's husband treated the child like his own.

But it was a small town and people talked. The man grew up and had 5 children of his own, whom he abused. Two committed suicide and one deliberately drank himself to death.

My conclusion: Rape is horrible and I don't want to sit in judgment of any woman's decision of how to handle it.

[bluestateguy]

105. That too is a choice

and a choice just as deserving of respect as if she decided to not continue the pregnancy.

[Warren DeMontague]

106. Why do you "hope" that? Don't you have anything better to worry about?

Is this the main thing you take away from this discussion? No shit?

Is there some crush of women who have made this decision, complaining about pesky pro-choicers passing judgment on their decision?

No.

[Green_Lantern]

137. not necessarily pro-choicers but I do think..

There are many more women who have children that were conceived by rape than you think.

And yes I think many are ashamed to admit that.

[seabeyond]

182. why should they admit it? what do you gain with women admitting it?

do you think that would be a healthy thing to give to a kid?

what is YOUR need that women hold up rape babies for labels.

wtf is this?

[Green_Lantern]

192. another twist of my words by you...

I'm saying it is nothing to be ashamed of.

Now you'll twist that.

So you think rape victims should tell no one?

[seabeyond]

197. are you fucking serious? this is what you reduce rape to? just a shrug? should have no effect

on the health of a kid? or the women?

and then you are going to lecture us?

you so lack the ability to give any insightful info at all. that is what you are incapable of understanding.

really women, being forcibly fuck should be readily discussed, shared and given to your kid. nice healthy perspective on fuckin rape.

i am walking away from your posts, shaking my head at the ignorance.

[Green_Lantern]

209. see...I told you that you would twist my words

Of course I'm not saying it should just be shrugged off.

[seabeyond]

212. you minimize rape. you minimize the experience. you want to pin the rape on the child as what?

and you blame women advocating choice for forcing women to get abortion.

you are playing a fuckin game

and you are obvious to all but a few.

[Green_Lantern]

216. Twist twist

nt

[seabeyond]

218. how old are you, 5? nt

[chowder66]

107. Is it me? I feel like we are talking about this from the right....

I am asking because I see so much about..."in cases of rape, incest or potential death". Doesn't this move the conversation to the right?

It is about having the right to our own health choices, our own bodies. Equality.
So if a woman chooses to have an abortion for any other reason other than those I listed ....it is still no ones business.

I am concerned that we are helping this argument along by talking on their terms (i.e. only in cases of....).

[redqueen]

202. Good point. nt

[Warpy]

108. What about them?

The operative word is choose.

It's none of my business what a woman decides to do about a pregnancy, no matter how it occurred.

Nor is it yours.

[GeorgeGist]

111. You are disinjenous and confused.

[Autumn]

116. That would be their choice. ALL women should be allowed CHOICE. Their bodies, their choice.

[JI7]

120. it's their CHOICE

[salin]

121. as a survivor

I don't get the question. Are you suggesting that there are people who want to impose abortion? Who are these people, where are their public statements?

I have never had a conversation with other survivors that even questioned whether it was implied that other survivor's who became pregnant *must* abort.

The question is a bit suspect though, given that there is no place in the US that forces abortions on women (that I know of). Why is there a suggestion of such an event? Meanwhile the platform of a major political party does advocate the force of one action if one is raped and becomes pregnant. Your question suggests a false equivalency.

Show me the proposed legislation that wants to impose abortion upon rape victims who become pregnant, and I will stand corrected per the charge of false equivalency.

[Green_Lantern]

138. I am not talking about the force of law...

Talking about societal pressure.

[yardwork]

140. There's a lot of societal pressure against women, as your posts in this thread demonstrate.

Unintentionally or not, your posts are examples of some of the societal pressures that undermine women and our rights. First, you're suggesting that there is some kind of nation-wide problem where women who are victims of rape are being "shamed" (your word, used several places in this thread) into abortions. Second, your posts are insensitive to the women who are survivors of rape, including several posts right here in this thread in which you brush off rape survivors and continue to press your point about how women are somehow being "shamed" into having abortions.

What you're doing is undermining women's right to choose, by undermining the legitimacy of our choices for our own bodies. As a male, you are telling women what to do.

[Green_Lantern]

145. wow that sounds naive....

I don't really think I said women are being shamed into getting abortions.

I think you may be in denial that rape victims who have children conceived in rape feel ashamed to admit this is the case.

[seabeyond]

161. why should a woman who is raped but decides to keep the baby have to "admit" it is a rape victim?

i will tell you, if i got preg with rape, i would be able to have the baby. would not not transfer the rape to the baby. i would not feel a shame, but i would not discuss either. i would not create my child as a rape baby.

you really have issues with this?

harp on the rapist having parental right of that child if the mother chooses to keep the baby.

THAT is what would stop me from carrying out the term of preg.

do you even kinda get how disgustingly arrogantly male it is for you to lecture women on " rape victims who have children conceived in rape feel ashamed to admit this is the case" with a comment like this.

stand up next to the ryans and akins and male "experts" discussing womens health to congress.

that is what you are doing. NO LESS.

[Green_Lantern]

183. who is lecturing? you are sounding paranoid

I'm not saying women SHOULD be ashamed to say they were raped...I'm saying many do feel shame.

When did I ever defend parental rights for rapists or endorse what Akin said? Actually my bar for what constitutes rape is much lower than Akin.

He'd probably require video evidence.
No matter what I say you seem intent on twisting my words.

[seabeyond]

186. i dont sound paranoid. i should sound fuckin pissed. you like to project shit onto people

and that is pissing me off. you think you can speak for women about rape?

I'm not saying women SHOULD be ashamed to say they were raped...I'm saying many do feel shame.

damn straight they do. figure out why and address that. i am right there with you. so is most every other women on this board and we discuss it often. we are WAY BEYOND you in understanding this "shame" women feel, thank you very much for your expertise knowledge.

When did I ever defend parental rights for rapists or endorse what Akin said?

i didnt say you defended. but, if you really want to grab hold of an issue that may shift a womans mind from having a rapists baby, this might be one you consider. and fuckin say something about it than lecture here on du that anyone would not want social resources for those in need.

your language, telling women how they should feel about rape, what they should do about rape, and FUCKING IGNORING the women that are talking to you on this thread is exactly the repug male passing these laws.

[Green_Lantern]

199. I didn't say anything about "women who get raped should do this or that"

I wasn't even trying to imply that.

[salin]

253. again as a survivor...

I have never heard of a problem with women being forced by peer pressure ("societal pressures&quot into aborting the child.

Is there documentation that this is a common problem? If so, I would be open to reading and evaluating that documentation - and I have an open mind. However, without that documentation, having never known a single woman who was in this situation, I find the assertion dubious.

I am familiar, sadly, with cases in which a woman becomes pregnant and is pressured by her partner (because the result of the pregnancy would be inconvenient) to abort the pregnancy. That isn't a societal pressure problem. That is an attempt of an individual to assert pressure on another person in order to avoid the responsibility for a child.

I believe that there is audio evidence that even John Fund, the conservative pro-life commentator, has engaged in such behavior.

[MatthewStLouis]

123. Pro-choice is about giving women power over their own bodies, it's not pro-abortion.

You don't have to choose to get an abortion, but, by God, you should have a choice! In my opinion, a rapist has no right to beget life with your body without your consent.

I think there are places government doesn't belong and in the uterus is one of them.

[pbmus]

126. ...............

Once the Republicans ban abortion in cases of rape and incest they're going to focus on America's spiraling witch problem.

[fascisthunter]

159. hahahaha.... NOPE

[Aerows]

160. If men

are so interested in pregnancy and how important it is that every conceived zygote lives, I suggest men figure out how to be pregnant. You seem to think you can do anything, why can't you carry a baby? Figure out how to get pregnant without women. It should be easy for you guys, since you know everything.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

173. How many women who've been raped by their husbands keep the baby?

Although, "choose to" might be questionable.

[still_one]

179. It has always been about choice, however if incest is

Involved that has additional ramifications

[stevenleser]

184. This post sounds very concern-troll-ish.

Hard to imagine that anyone who really belongs on DU asked this question.

[HockeyMom]

187. My 12 year old friend who was raped

She fought her rapist and was in the hospital from her beating and knife cuts. This happened back in the mid 60s. With her physical injuries she was in the hospital for days. Her parents (Catholics) gave their permission for her to be given mega doses of BC pills to prevent ovulation. She was taken to a State Hospital. She was very fortunate that her parents weren't extreme religous nuts who thought any "artifical" contraceptive, even after rape, was "killing babies".

I remember her Dad's reaction. If he could get his hand on that rapist, he would have killed him. If somebody told him his little girl, MUST conceive and bear a rapist baby, he would have killed them too. I happen to believe the MAJORITY of husbands and fathers would probably have the same reaction, even REPUBLICANS. I know my Republican husband would if I, or our daughters, got pregnant from a rape. I am 100% sure he would not allow us to be FORCED to have a rapist baby. He would have mortgaged our house to send us overseas for an abortion.

The most EXTREME RELIGIOUS of the Republican Party are going us. Personally, I have my doubts Mitt would force this on his own family. Arch Catholic Ryan probably would.

[seabeyond]

191. this argument was in the back of my mind thru out. it is easy for the men to demand OTHER women

bare this out, but if it is one of their own, watch them make an exception.

[Cleita]

195. I knew somebody this happened to and being Catholic she opted to have

the baby, but she gave it up for adoption. She didn't want to keep it and she feared that the child might try to reconnect with her in the future and she didn't want that to happen, ever.

There was a special on Al Jazeera about African women who were raped in one of the wars there. There was a woman who was trying to help these women put their lives back together and to make sure the unwanted rape children were cared for. One of the problems is that the children of the rapes were often neglected and sometimes abused by their mothers. When asked why, they replied that they didn't like those children and every time they looked at them, it reminded them of their ordeal.

Although, rape seems to be a product of war, it would be best to try to find a way of protecting women from it to begin with. This is not possible most of the time, as society and law and order break down during conflict, but somehow, preventing a pregnancy after the fact of rape seems to be the second best solution.

[renie408]

200. Why didn't you just write "LOOK AT ME!!! LOOK AT ME!!"...

for your title?

And you have had a thrilling afternoon of being in the center of your own little storm. Which you created out of thin air, so kudos to you there.

I really like how you skip and jump and spin like a wee little top in your responses, but how you have yet to provide any evidence that anyone on the DU so much as encouraged a rape victim to have an abortion.

The depressing part of this whole thing is the multitude of people willing to give you your little moment. Jeez, we liberals can be so easy sometimes.

[yellowcanine]

204. Eh. Straw man alert. Where do you get that implication? It is trollish to raise issues

just to dispute them.

[Purple_Vines]

207. Addressing the phrase "rapist's child"

I am in no way trying to derail the conversation or invalidate anyone's opinion or viewpoint, but I came across this thread while doing research for an article I'm writing for a friend. A friend who has asked me to write about the language being bandied about on this subject from the perspective of a pro-choice woman who also happens to be the mother of a child conceived by rape. A child who knows and is only a couple of months away from being an adult herself.

There are problems with some of the language being used and it's occurring on both sides of the debate. Feeling shamed into silence and even unsupported afterwards is separate and more subjectively personal I think. Something I'd rather not get into here.

Someone specifically asked if the phrase, "rapist's child" was problematic. Yes. It always has been and it always will be.

It was for me when well-meaning friends and family members used it after I decided not to end the pregnancy. It is now when my daughter hears and reads it all over the television and web. I have had time to build up a thick skin against these kinds of phrases, but she has not. She wonders if anyone understands what it's like to have your entire existence be reduced to the perpetrator of a horrific act against your own mother.

As her mother, I wish she didn't know the circumstances of her conception. It was taken out of my hands by a relative who wanted to hurt me a few years ago. There are no words to describe how hard it was for both of us to have that conversation afterwards, and I know there are times she, herself, wishes she didn't know. Particularly now that our language on the subject has become so polarized. There isn't anything I can do about that, though. What I have done and continue to do is teach her that she is not at fault. She is in no way, "fruit of the poisonous tree."

She also understands how much having the right to make the choice gave me the ability to own my decision. In a way I don't think I would have if I had been forced to. I have always held the belief that this made me a better, a more intentional, mother to her. I chose to have and love her to the best of my abilities. Something I have never regretted.

My experience, my choices, and my perceptions on the issue are my own. Many of you might have made different choices or maybe perceived things in different ways. All I can speak with any certainty is my own.

Time to get back to my research. I wish all of you luck and learning with your ongoing debate here.

[DURHAM D]

219. Thank you for your post.

This thread is a bit of a shit storm and your post is so thoughtful and calm. Thanks again and good luck with your research.

[Tikki]

214. What about the rapist who gets his victim pregnant and wants her to have it?

Tis rape you know, an extreme act of violence meant to humiliate the victim and often leave
severe and lasting injuries and physical and mental scars.
Ultimately it is a pro-choice situation, though.

Tikki

[Progressive dog]

220. Unreal-if you are opposed to abortion then don't have one

I'm trying to think what a "consensus of women " means. Are you worried about peer pressure on a rape victim? Are you also worried about religious pressure or state coercion? Why does it make a difference to you how a woman chooses to handle this? Should we bribe women to have the child of their rapist? Wouldn't that be a form of coercion, especially if we had a "consensus" to make this law?
You can't seriously be implying that life begins at conception.
Like the President, I thought these issues had been decided decades ago. Women are not chattel, they have an absolute right to have control over their bodies.

[Green_Lantern]

224. how do you people get this out of the OP?

Where did I ever say rape victims should have to carry their pregnancies to term?

[Progressive dog]

227. Why else would you make the OP?

Kind of like the difference between illegitimate rape and forcible rape. Slightly different meanings, same basic idea.

[4th law of robotics]

223. Not a choice I'd make in that situation but if that's what she wants

[Enrique]

225. shun them

[Marrah_G]

228. I have a couple comments on the topic

I have also seen the implication that children born of rape are a burden or a constant reminder of pain to the women who choose to bear them.

I AM a child of rape.

I was given up at birth by a mother who very much wanted me but her mother decided adoption was best.

We found each other a decade ago.

It was not painful for her, it was joyous.

I am not a bad reminder to her, I am her child that she loves.

She does not look at me and see him, she looks at me and sees herself.

I love her and she loves me.

There have been some comments in recent weeks that have been painful to read.

I would ask that people think before they post and to remember that choice means CHOICE, no matter what the circumstances.

Children of rape are not monsters or baggage, to be pitied or looked at as a cause of pain to their mothers.

[Chorophyll]

242. The point is that no law should force ANY woman to give birth.

What anyone *thinks* about a rape victim who chooses to give birth (or not to give birth) is irrelevant.

[orpupilofnature57]

252. Remember the concept of " Pro Choice "

Maybe " Personal Choice " would evoke the idea that it's between a woman and herself.