Please explain this: We sanction a country into starvation and then an truck armada of aid to them?

[allgood33]

What am I missing. It's like Trump creating a problem and then wanting credit for solving it.

This is in reference to the news story about aid to Venezuaela.

[malaise]

1. And then demand that they remove their blockage

while building a wall to keep out those folks from Central America who haven't been separated from their parents and put in cages..

This people are effin' shameless and crazy.

How many weapons do you think are among the so called humanitarian aid?

[brush]

5. More than one way to get that Venezuelan oil.

Chavez spent oil money on housing, medical care and other programs for his people. He wasn't living it up on oil proceeds for himself but mysteriously comes down with a fatal disease and dies very early. Hmmm?

[malaise]

7. He also shared the oil wealth with his Caribbean neighbors

Last edited Fri Feb 8, 2019, 09:07 PM - Edit history (1)

It's truly frightening

[brush]

10. He has to be gotten rid of. He even gave away free fuel oil...

to New Yorkers in the Bronx during a particularly harsh winter when the price was sky high and many couldn't afford to heat their homes—through Citgo.

And he famously said he still smelled the sulphur of the devil from following Bush at the podium at the UN.

[malaise]

12. I remember well

[allgood33]

32. Didn't he also share oil for heat with our fellow citizens in New England during a very cold

winter and hard exonomic times?

[malaise]

43. Yes n/t

[EX500rider]

15. "but mysteriously comes down with a fatal disease and dies very early. Hmmm?"

Righttttt.....the CIA gave him colon cancer....

[brush]

17. Did we get the real story? You never wondered about that?

How convenient it was that Chavez died?

[EX500rider]

18. Again, I really doubt the CIA gave him cancer.

In June 2011, Chávez revealed in a televised address from Havana, Cuba, that he was recovering from an operation to remove an abscessed tumor with cancerous cells.
On 17 July 2011, television news reported that Chávez had returned to Cuba for further cancer treatments.
In November 2012, Chávez announced plans to travel to Cuba for more medical treatment for cancer.
On 8 December 2012, Chávez announced he would undergo a new operation after doctors in Cuba detected malignant cells; the operation took place on 11 December 2012.[453] Chávez suffered a respiratory infection after undergoing the surgery but it was controlled.[454] It was announced on 20 December by the country's vice-president that Chávez had suffered complications following his surgery.[455] It was announced on 3 January 2013 that Chávez had a severe lung infection that had caused respiratory failures following a strict treatment regimen for respiratory insufficiency.
On 1 March 2013, Vice President Nicolás Maduro said that Chávez had been receiving chemotherapy in Venezuela following his surgery in Cuba.[460] On 4 March, it was announced by the Venezuelan government that Chávez's breathing problems had worsened and he was suffering a new, severe respiratory infection.
On 5 March 2013, Vice President Nicolás Maduro announced on state television that Chávez had died in a military hospital in Caracas at 16:25 VET (20:55 UTC).[463] The Vice President said Chávez died "after battling a tough illness for nearly two years".[463] According to the head of Venezuela's presidential guard, Chávez died from a massive heart attack, and his colon cancer was very advanced when he died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez#Illness

Frankly if you want widely available and free medical treatment go to Cuba. If you want 1st class cutting edge treatment go to the the US or Europe.

[EX500rider]

20. "He wasn't living it up on oil proceeds for himself " Sure about that?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/9993238/Venezuela-the-wealth-of-Chavez-family-exposed.html

https://apnews.com/7a7fe8b6733a4971859f36df91d27b6f

[mr_lebowski]

2. Yes, this way he can make sure he only feeds the people 'on his side' ...

Probably is, you gotta train yourself to think like the most evil, fascist assface that's drawn a breath since 1945.

[former9thward]

8. President Obama put sanctions on Venezuela in March, 2015.

That was a good thing. And no, that did not cause its economy to go to hell. Maduro seizing control of the entire economy did. Everything fell apart. That is why the people now are starving and want to overthrow him. It is criminal that food is being blocked from people starving. I hope Maduro gets the justice coming to him.

[GulfCoast66]

13. President Obama sanctioned a few individuals.

There has been no sanctions on selling goods to them.

Just clarifying. Otherwise I totally agree with you point.

[mr_lebowski]

21. Do you REALLY trust, that with Trump in charge, he has any intention of letting anyone

get fed who cannot be identified as Anti-Maduro/on the side of the US?

Cause I absolutely do not. Not saying blocking the food aid is a 'good thing', cause even feeding 1/2 the people would be good, but ...

Not a fan of Maduro, but at the same time, I absolutely DO NOT trust ANYTHING Trump/Bolton are planning.

What NEEDS to happen is a UN peacekeeping and humanitarian mission, IMHO. I don't recall hearing hardly anything from the UN about this, at least not in terms of ACTION. I could've missed it though.

[sweetapogee]

25. the fact

of the matter is Maduro isn't letting any aid in, USA or otherwise.

This is a country that has the largest known reserves of crude oil in the world and yet their economy is in the toilet. This is Maduro's fault no one else. Sorry if that offends.

[mr_lebowski]

27. No offense, but what you describe as the situation does not dissuade me from disbelieving

That Trump plans to feed anyone not on the USA's side in Venezuela, if US aid were to be allowed in.

Maduro's response to aid ... is kinda a separate matter from my point.

Also, before you say 'Maduro's fault and nobody else's' ... I urge you to spend 20 minutes and read this entire article ... it's incredibly informative ...

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/02/07/replicating-regime-change-playbook-pompeo-says-us-obligated-take-down-hezbollah

Also ... Greg Palast, a reporter I respect ... had an interesting article yesterday ...

https://www.gregpalast.com/in-venezuela-white-supremacy-is-a-key-to-trump-coup/

[sweetapogee]

35. if it makes you feel better

then no problem as far as I'm concerned.

The plain simple truth is that Maduro nationalized just about every industry in the country. He set prices far below the cost for food retailers and simply took the businesses away from them if they didn't operate at a loss. The nationalized companies didn't pay their bills to their vendors, vendors like airlines so the airlines simply stopped servicing the country. Inflation is at about a million percent in the country, the currency isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Blame the US for what ever if that makes you happy but the US isn't the only country trying to help even other SA countries are getting the same treatment.

[In It to Win It]

3. That's his thing

Trump breaks things and takes the credit for fixing it, if it’s fixed... ALL. THE. TIME!!!

[Igel]

4. It's only really Maduro and supporters saying

that sanctions on 7 people in his government brought down the entire government and economy.

"Sanctions" can be narrowly targeted or quite broad. Obama's on Maduro's friends were narrow.

When Maduro refers to them, he makes sure that the context leads people to assume they were broad.

They were having problems before the sanctions. Except that it takes a while to harvest the wealth that's sitting around and expend it, and during that time things seem better for many. Some large loans helped keep things afloat, as well.

The oil price decline certainly didn't help.

[GulfCoast66]

6. Only your premise is totally non-factual.

We have not sanctioned Venezuela. Anyone is free to sell them any food or consumer product. In fact until last week we were their largest trading partner.

They are starving due to the complete incompetence of their government who instituted economic policies that even true Keynesion economist knew would result in a collapse of their entire economy. Which would be fine, I guess, if they had not eliminated the last vestiges of Democratic rule in the country.

That said, we should still keep out of it short of recognizing their assembly as the true legitimate power.

[denverbill]

9. What I still don't get is how no major politician in the US seems to care.

Republicans I can understand. But I haven't even heard a liberal politician support Chavez/Maduro. I really thought Obama might give them the benefit of a doubt, but he branded them a 'terrorist supporters', even though I haven't heard a shred of evidence about which terrorists they supposedly support. Jimmy Carter is about the only one who has come out and said Venezuela's elections are free and fair, back in 2012. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/why-us-dcemonises-venezuelas-democracy

I know almost all politicians nowadays want socialism to die completely but you would think there would be at least a few publicly condemning this coup. Or maybe a major newpaper that would actually take the time to report both sides of the story, rather than just regurgitate what Venezuela's right wing media invents.

Yes things are bad there now, but 90% of that problem is low oil prices and sanctions. Lives of most Venezuelan's improved dramatically when Chavez took over which is why his party still has a lot of support today.

[GulfCoast66]

11. Your kidding me? Right?

First, we never sanctioned Venezuela. Even today any company is free to sell food or consumer goods to them. For the past 10 years we have been their largest trading partner.

And life is better there now!! They are starving. Have no medical care. Entirely due to incompetence and corruption on the government part. Price and currency controls have destroyed their economy. The elected assembly has been stripped of all power.

I’m continually shocked at the few on the left who will support any regime, no matter how repressive, as long as they call themselves socialist.

Don’t get me wrong. I want no intervention there. And I thought Speaker Pelosi’s statement was perfect on the issue. But they, and Cuba are the least free people in the Western Hemisphere. At least the Cubans can feed their people. And we do have a stupid embargo on them.

[denverbill]

19. Give me a fucking break.

You want repressive? Try our pals in Saudi Arabia. Or Trump's buddy in North Korea. How about Egypt maybe? Venezuela has an extremely active opposition media that operates non-stop bashing the government. What the fuck kind of shitty repressive government allows an opposition media? Sure as hell doesn't exist in Saudi Arabia or North Korea. Never existed in Nazi Germany or the USSR. For the last 16 or more years I've been reading how repressive their government is in the US media, despite Jimmy Carter, in 2012, saying their elections were the most free and fair he'd ever observed. There have been almost non-stop opposition street protests against the government for years. How is it that this repressive dictatorship has not rounded up every protester on the streets and thrown them in concentration camps? Remember how impressed Rex Tillerson was when he went to Saudi Arabia and there were no protesters? Hmm, I wonder why?

If you read what I wrote earlier, i specifically said things were bad there now. What i also said was things improved dramatically for most Venezuelans when Chavez assumed power, and they did. But falling oil prices and to a lesser extent sanctions, have changed that. Things might be bad now for Venezuelans, but once this coup has succeeded, things will get worse. The oligarchs will have their oil profits back, and the spending on schools, health care, and anti-poverty programs will be slashed. You won't hear about Venezuela's poor any more after that. And when the new government cracks down on Chavista's and jails them and bans their party, we won't hear any talk of dictatorship.

Face facts. The US government does not give a rat's ass about human rights and democracy. If it truly did there would be dozens of countries higher on the list of repressive regimes than Venezuela. What the US really gives a shit about it countries going socialist, which is why we still maintain sanctions against Cuba and why every socialist government elected south of the US is immediately branded as a corrupt dictatorship.

[EX500rider]

23. "and anti-poverty programs will be slashed" Yes, cause they are doing such a great job!

Venezuelans reported losing on average 11 kilograms (24 lbs) in body weight last year and almost 90 percent now live in poverty.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-food/venezuelans-report-big-weight-losses-in-2017-as-hunger-hits-idUSKCN1G52HA

[EX500rider]

24. Pro Maduro posts always seem long on rhetoric and short on facts.

But I suppose if the facts don't help your case you have to ignore them.

[denverbill]

47. You know when I disagree with a fellow Democrat at DU I like to review their other posts.

Sometimes it helps me understand where they are coming from, or help me see that although I might disagree with them on one subject, we have many other areas of agreement.

You seem to be a different case. From what I can see you only post about:
1) Venezuela
2) Guns
3) Cuba
4) Socialism

You are pro-gun, anti-Venezuela, anti-Cuba, and anti-socialist. You don't seem to care about Trump, Virginia, health care, or any other subject most DUers spend most of their time talking about.

So I'm guessing you are either:
1) A Democrat who cares more about Venezuela than the US
2) John Bolton
3) An anti-Castro Cuban or anti-Maduro Venezuelan living in exile in Florida
4) A Republican who only posts about subjects that split Democrats

Help me see the error of my ways.

[EX500rider]

48. Or someone who is more a Centrist who was raised in Latin America...

....spends time next door in Colombia and has many Venezuelan friends, is pro-Bill Of Rights and not very interested in talking about US politics, especially about States I don't live in.
I think Cuba and Venezuela are Police States and Human Rights Watch agrees with me on that.
I think almost no one here seems to know the actual definition of Socialism, which is the State owns the means of production, which never works out well. I am not anti-Cuba or anti-Venezuela but anti-Police State. If anyone here defends N Korea or Russia or China I would jump into that thread also.

[GulfCoast66]

26. Good god! Where did I ever defend our support of SA.

Or North Korea?

Or any of the other shit you posted.

Chavez was a Tyrant in the traditional sense. A democratically elected president who used his powers to help insure his domination.

Maduro is a true Dictator.

Things improved under Chavez but it was built on a foundation of sand. The oil industry was put in the hands of loyalists who knew nothing about the industry. And now is pretty much dead. Only the purchases from the US has propped them up for this long.

And sanctions. What sanctions? Any country, including the US was free to sell anything they wanted to Venezuela. Of course eventually none would because the state would not pay for it.

Perhaps if the so called Socialist Countries would not eliminate things like free elections they would not be held in such poor regard.

I am not in favor of any action against Venezuela. Nor the US only embargo on Cuba. God knows they are fucking things enough on their own.

I am a social democrat. As such I understand the dangers of true socialism.

[denverbill]

45. You called Chavez a 'tyrant' and Maduro a dictator.

I was giving you examples of REAL ACTUAL dictators. If you think either Chavez or Maduro are as bad as the Saudis or North Koreans, please explain how.

Dissent
Dissent is BANNED in Saudi Arabia. There are no protests there because anyone who protests is jailed and frequently executed.
Ditto North Korea.
Opposition media has been bashing Chavez and Maduro virtually non-stop since Chavez came to power. Violent protests have been ongoing against the government for the last 4 years and were common even prior to that.

Elections
Saudis get to vote every few years in municipal elections related to city services. They don't get to vote for or against their King.
North Korea- There is one party with multiple factions. Voters get to either select a candidate or cross him name off a list. Voting is not secret. Participation is close to 100% with nearly 100% favoring the chosen candidates.
Venezuela- Elections are held according to the constitution. In 2012, Jimmy Carter certified them as being the most free and fair he had ever witnessed. The are multiple opposition parties. Elections have been close when the opposition party chooses not to boycott them.

The Chavistas have been in power for nearly 20 years. If they are so intent on becoming dictators, what's taking them so long. Hitler did it in 2-3 years.

And what is your problem with socialist countries? You act like any country that's socialist immediately becomes a dictatorship. One has nothing to do with the other. A country can be socialist without being a dictatorship and it can be a dictatorship without being socialist (like Saudi Arabia).

England isn't exactly a dictatorship, but they have socialized health care, state run BBC, and have had other state-owned industries, like British Airways and British Petroleum. If Venezuela wants to nationalize their oil industry, more power to them. Let all the people of Venezuela benefit from the oil under their soil, not just a few billionaires. You talk like you think there's no difference between socialism and communism.

[GulfCoast66]

50. I am capable of understanding their are varying degrees of bad.

A country less repressed than SA or N. Korea can still be pretty bad.

And what does England, or Germany or Sweden have to do with socialism. They are both thriving capitalist countries with strong social democratic policies.

And the Venezuelan oil industry has been socialized since 1974. What Chávez did was use it to reward friends and put incompetent people in charge.

The problems in Venezuela have nothing to do with the US. We have been their largest trading partner for years. The problem is a group of people trying to accomplish the impossible- making a command economy work.

[malaise]

44. Excellent post

Thank you

[EX500rider]

16. "But I haven't even heard a liberal politician support Chavez/Maduro."

Who in their right mind would support a authoritarian dysfunctional regime like Maduro's?
And the last election was anything but fair, feel free to educate yourself on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election

Venezuela's "right wing media" Are you kidding?

Human Rights Watch said that during "the leadership of President Chávez and now President Maduro, the accumulation of power in the executive branch and the erosion of human rights guarantees have enabled the government to intimidate, censor, and prosecute its critics" and reported that broadcasters may be censored if they criticize the government.[4][5]

Reporters Without Borders said that the media in Venezuela is "almost entirely dominated by the government and its obligatory announcements, called cadenas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Venezuela

"Yes things are bad there now, but 90% of that problem is low oil prices and sanctions"

Things are bad there due to extremely poorly thought out govt actions:

Price controls during rampant inflation making the shelves bare of food...check
Over printing money causing the million % inflation...check
Ridiculous multi-level currency controls ensuring no dollars to buy imports...check
Confiscation of foreign property driving off investment...check
Firing competent oil workers and substituting lackeys, ensuring oil production drops...check
Failing to diversify the economy from oil...check
Failing to invest in electrical infrastructure resulting in rolling blackouts...check
Pricing gas so low it's all black marketed to neighboring countries...check

Command economies have never worked.

[GulfCoast66]

28. Well, other are coming out of the woodwork here.

There will always be a group on the left that will support any regime, no matter how repressive that supports any government that calls itself socialist

[mr_lebowski]

30. No remotely 'socialist' politician in Central America is EVER EVER EVER going to be allowed to

succeed by the Government of the United States (nor Canada, nor much of Europe) ...

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/02/07/replicating-regime-change-playbook-pompeo-says-us-obligated-take-down-hezbollah
https://www.gregpalast.com/in-venezuela-white-supremacy-is-a-key-to-trump-coup/

And just an offhand observation ... ONCE AGAIN, for like the 4th time in the last week, liberals and DU are being torn apart and arguing constantly amongst ourselves ... so SOMEBODY is definitely getting what they want ...

[EX500rider]

33. "liberals and DU are being torn apart.."

No one remotely liberal would support the authoritarian regime in Venz.

Human Rights Watch:
Under the leadership of President Hugo Chávez and President Nicolás Maduro, the accumulation of power in the executive branch and erosion of human rights guarantees have enabled the government to intimidate, censor, and punish its critics. Severe shortages of medicines, medical supplies, and food have intensified since 2014, and weak government responses have undermined Venezuelans’ rights to health and food. Security forces have arbitrarily detained and tortured protesters, and raids in low-income communities have led to widespread allegations of abuse. Other persistent concerns include poor prison conditions and impunity for human rights abuses.

https://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela


AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL:
Venezuela remained in a state of emergency, repeatedly extended since January 2016. A National Constituent Assembly was elected without the participation of the opposition. The Attorney General was dismissed under irregular circumstances. Security forces continued to use excessive and undue force to disperse protests. Hundreds of people were arbitrarily detained. There were many reports of torture and other ill-treatment, including sexual violence against demonstrators. The judicial system continued to be used to silence dissidents, including using military jurisdiction to prosecute civilians. Human rights defenders were harassed, intimidated and subject to raids. Conditions of detention were extremely harsh. The food and health crises continued to worsen, especially affecting children, people with chronic illness and pregnant women. The number of Venezuelans seeking asylum in other countries increased.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/americas/venezuela/report-venezuela/


Reporters Without Borders said that the media in Venezuela is "almost entirely dominated by the government and its obligatory announcements, called cadenas.
According to the National Sindicate of Press Workers of Venezuela, 115 media outlets have been shut down between 2013 and 2018 during Nicolás Maduro's government, including 41 printed means, 65 radio outlets and 9 television channels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Venezuela

[mr_lebowski]

39. I'll just let the two articles I posted speak to the point that Native Left-Wing Movements and

Governments in Central/South America will always be crushed by the collective forces of much richer/more powerful/organized right-leaning Nations ... no matter what.

While stipulating that also ... yeah ... in order to attempt to maintain their power, any such governments will inevitably tend towards authoritarianism as their only option.

Which of course will even turn the liberals of the richer nations (such as all of us) against them as well.

This whole scenario has played out repeatedly in this region.

NO MATTER WHAT ... 'another way' will never be allowed.

And I'm not saying we're getting torn apart because many here support Maduro and many do not ... it's not that simple ... but rather ... that we will see all manner of different and fractious viewpoints about ALL kinds of different things that are happening, or about to happen.

Meanwhile, the Right? They'll just chant "Go Trump! DO whatever HE says! USA! USA! Oh, and GET THAT OIL!"

This scenario is another shitshow for our side.

[EX500rider]

42. Well between..

Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International & Reporters Without Borders that I posted and somebodies blog and Common Dreams I'll take my sources.

And Maduro's govt isn't some "Native Movement" being evilly suppressed because of their color like the guys blog thinks.
Nobody cares what color they are if they would have free elections and could keep their people fed, and with the largest oil reserves on the planet you would think that would be easy.

[brush]

51. Thank you. You get it. Left-leaning admins in this hemisphere...

will always be attacked and undermined on many fronts by TPTB.

Come on people, history has shown this repeatedly over the last century and into this one. Let's take the blinders off, our country has bloody hands in many countries. The Monroe Doctrine is still being practiced on the downlow and out in the open.

[EX500rider]

14. The US had zero to do with Venz's problems:

Did the US make them:

Taking over private factories and run them into the ground.

Seizing foreign oil companies equipment, driving off needed investment and know how.

Instituting price controls on basic food stuffs during massive inflation, insuring the shelves are bare. (can't sell under cost long)

Causing the massive inflation by over printing money.

Confiscating productive farms and parceling them out to loyalists, drying up the local the food supply.
Food production:



Instituting bizarre multi-level currency controls, drying up the supply of dollars for food imports.
https://www.legalmondo.com/2017/04/foreign-currency-regulations-venezuela/

Firing all the competent oil workers and replacing them with loyalists.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/05/07/how-venezuela-ruined-its-oil-industry/#9c24aa87399d

Oil production: (their major export)


Govt pricing of local gasoline sales below market value, resulting in shortages as it all gets black marketed to neighboring countries.

Etc..

[sprinkleeninow]

22. Saw the blockade there preventing aid from getting in.

There's gotta be a clinical term for doing such as this pathological wrong.

[GulfCoast66]

29. Dictatorship? That the clinical term you looking for?

[sprinkleeninow]

31. I just finished reading all the entries/'historical'

reasons for Venezuela's demise.

I'm not savvy in concluding political events such as this.

My meaning in reply to the OP was that 'we' sent humanitarian aid and then had a hand in blocking it?

Which is *''s MO. Break/ruin something then give the appearance that he fixed/is fixing it. Pathological.

Edit: I may have gotten it in reverse. We imposed sanctions. Then we send humanitarian aid. Either way it's all sickening.

[GulfCoast66]

34. We had no sanctiones on them until last week.

They made this bed on their own. Now we are not buying their oil.

They are not starving nor lack any healthcare due to sanctions. But incompetence.

Even with no sanctions no one would sell to them because they would not pay.

Any multinational is free to sell them whatever they want. But they have made their currency worthless. And totally destroyed their own once thriving agriculture industry.

It’s what command economics does.

[sprinkleeninow]

36. Okay.

But it is agreeable that * wrecks stuff then 'shows' that he's fixing it, yes?

[sprinkleeninow]

37. Why was there speculation that the US might be itching to get into a conflict down there.

For oil?

[sprinkleeninow]

38. I legitimately appreciate your knowledge on this. ☺

[Blue_Tires]

40. It's your boy Maduro who has been starving his people....

For years now...

[allgood33]

53. He's not "my boy." But he is the elected head of state.

Our history of overthrowing elected regimes is not a good one.

[Blue_Tires]

54. Somoza was also the elected head of state

You want us to prop up Maduro in the same way?

[Caliman73]

41. Simple. We create the chaos to topple the government...

then send the aid AND funding and support for the right wing replacement we want. If the people would have risen up and replaced Maduro with another left wing, but not authoritarian leader, the US would still be sanctioning the shit out of Venezuela. You just need to look at the history of Columbia, Brazil, Chile, and Argentina to see the same scenario playing out in those countries. Then go further North and see how it played out in Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Panama.

[KWR65]

46. The capitalist class are mad that Venezuela nationalized oil so they are attacking it economically.

This is imperialism 101.

[EX500rider]

49. Venezuela nationalized their oil back in the 1970's....nobody cares...

....about 70% of oil producing nations have done so.

[Ferrets are Cool]

52. Monkeyboy (bush jr) bombed an entire nation into complete chaos, killing

approximately 1,000,000 men, women and children...and NO ONE knows how much we have spent rebuilding that country. All for oil. It's a republican tradition going way back.