The visceral hatred for Bernie is starting to remind me of the RW hate for Obama.

[redgreenandblue]

Some people are triggered by literally everything he does. Post-hoc inventing of special rules to follow that have never applied to anyone else, perpetual flipping out about things he did or didn't do that are common as dirt, totally ignoring his long track record on important issues while compulsively obsessing over the smallest details of tone and style, and throwing common sense and logic completely out of the window.

Obama:

"release the birth certificate!!!111"

"look how his flag pin is crooked! he disrespects the troops!!!111"

"he is secretly a Muslim!!111"

"but he isn't a real American!!!111"

"his health care plan is anti-Christian!!111"

Bernie:

"release the tax returns!!!1111"

"look how he waves his hands and turns his head! he disrespects women and minorities!!!111"

"he is secretly a Russian!!111"

"but he isn't a real Democrat!!!111"

"his health care plan is sexist!!111"

[TCJ70]

1. I'm over here waiting patiently for the threads chastising Kamala Harris for daring to speak...

...because Stacey Abrams tonight. After the upheaval and outrage about upstaging her and disrespecting her by endorsing her run, praising her as a choice, and saying he's looking forward to it I'm sure that same level of disgust will be shown towards Harris.

I have a feeling I'll be waiting a long time.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/428517-kamala-harris-to-deliver-address-ahead-of-trumps-state-of-the-union

[Mr. Quackers]

3. The more voices the better, especially if they are speaking in unison AGAINST

trump.

[TCJ70]

11. Agreed. N/t

[question everything]

214. Sure. Why stop with Harris? Why not Gillibrand and Warren

Booker and Castro? Or why not the new darlings of Congress: AOC, Omar, Tlaib?

Oh, and do Sanders, Harris et al expect all the TV stations to carry their comments?

Does not matter to me. Am not going to watch any of this. Will trust Brian Williams to cover the main points.

[TCJ70]

217. Don't you worry...

...neither Sanders nor Harris will be televised. Their comments will be posted to their social media outlets. So no. They don’t expect that and never gave any indication that they did.

The whole outrage is dumb. It’s elected people putting out videos on their social media and all of the sudden Sanders is conducting the ultimate disrespect somehow.

[mountain grammy]

35. Agree

[DownriverDem]

61. It's not hate towards Bernie

Bernie is not a member of the Democratic Party. That is a biggie to me. Last Saturday I went to the Michigan Democratic Party Convention as a delegate. There was a Bernie table there collecting signatures. Every time I walked by I asked the same thing: Did Bernie join the Democratic Party yet? Of course they just looked at me.

[TCJ70]

65. It's absolutely towards Bernie...

...the complaints evolved as the night went on:
First it was: Oh my god he’s going to speak at the same time as her! (Which he isn’t)
Then it was: BUT UNITY!!! (Suggesting that his response, which won’t be televised, isn’t concurrent with, and you have to actively go looking for, will somehow detract from the official Democratic response. But he's not a Democrat, right? So who cares what he does...)
Now it’s: Why does he feel the need to talk after Stacy Abrams in particular? Perhaps, sexist-racist!(Well this is the third time he’s done it so it’s probably not her.)

So after you boil down the outrage and get the goalposts to their final destination it really just comes down to Bernie saying anything, anytime, anywhere just sets some people off.

[dogman]

91. Again, tell it to the Democrats.

https://www.democrats.senate.gov/
https://www.democrats.senate.gov/about-senate-dems/our-caucus

[ProfessorPlum]

92. wow. you don't say?

I never heard that before

[MuseRider]

186. I bet they thought you were just a little

ray of sunshine. Really? Was that needed? Ya think they did not know that? There are names for people who do shit like that, I hope you fared better than that.

[emulatorloo]

2. I like Bernie, I just don't think he is a good candidate for President

He’s very popular in Vermont and is a great Senator for them

I supported him in Primary 2016. I think there are more qualified candidates for President in 2020, so this time I’ll be supporting someone else.

“release the tax returns!!!1111" That’s not “hatred,” all of our candidates should release their tax returns. That’s the kind of transparency we want from our candidates.

[FreeState]

8. Me too n/t

[LittleGirl]

28. Agreed. eom

[get the red out]

59. Same here, eom

[ehrnst]

74. +1000. (nt)

[Apollyonus]

122. He is too divisive nt

[ananda]

157. I tend to agree.

I really like Sanders .. a lot.

But if there is a good Dem running, they will have my
support in the primary.

And I will vote for a Dem in the general.

[relayerbob]

159. Agreed 100%

[MuseRider]

190. I think he would do well

but he has problems that are particular to Bernie. He is so damned focused on his issues it is hard for him to see how they sound too exclusive, things like that that he has addressed but once the nest is all het up and ready to sting him to the ground that gets built into a narrative he will never get out of.

I do think those damned tax returns should be out and we should know about them a long time ago. That is one thing that stops me from being behind him like I was before. I do not like that therefore if they are not out he does not get my vote. I am actually looking at several Dems who I like but am not all ready yet to think seriously about who.

[Eliot Rosewater]

201. How many reasons are there NOT to release them?

Anybody?

[brooklynite]

4. Asking Sanders to release his tax returns is hatred?

And since you consider this "visceral", could you define what are acceptable comments to make about Sanders?

[grantcart]

7. Bernie has his own rules

[yardwork]

18. I too await a response to this question. Politely.

I'm waiting politely.

[redgreenandblue]

27. It is weird if repeated over and over, especially since it is highly unlikely that

the tax returns contain any interesting information. It might be a valid request in isolation, but the obsession over it is weird.

"release the tax returns" - a random mantra that gets repeated over and over in any Bernie thread.

[Adrahil]

40. Then why won't he release them?

If he has nothing to hide, he could silence a lot of critics by following through on something he promised to do. The fact that he does not fuels suspicion.

It's not a random mantra. He promised to do so, and then did not. Why?

[yardwork]

41. So why doesn't he release his tax returns? He promised to do so in 2017.

[George II]

50. He promised to do so in 2016 as well. In fact Jane sat under the Brooklyn Bridge....

...with Andrea Mitchell (the afternoon of the Brooklyn debate) and told her they would be released within two weeks.

Still waiting.

[yardwork]

168. We're waiting politely.

[ehrnst]

47. "Unlikely that the tax returns contain any interesting information."

Can you imagine any other Democratic candidate being given a pass on using that as a justification not to be transparent with their personal finances?

Or if they had said, "I'm too busy."

Actually having "nothing interesting" in their finances is exactly why someone would release their tax returns, which is the simplest way to put an end to speculation.

[Eliot Rosewater]

202. The problem of course is how people who are dedicated democrats

who are so willing to excuse Bernie from doing something that we KNOW makes rump guilty of something.

WE KNOW rump wont release them because he has something to hide.

Until someone tells me ANY OTHER REASON any candidate would NOT release them, I MUST US MY COMMON SENSE and assume he has something to hide.

[MLAA]

279. +1

[qazplm135]

68. I have a valid request...

nope, I'm not going to honor that request.

But I'd really like to see it.

Weird that you keep asking me, are you obsessed?!

Is this how it played out in your head when you typed that post?

[LiberalLovinLug]

121. It is the double standard that is irritating. Bernie's tax returns..Hillary's Goldman Sach's speech

Or any other example of a Democrat not being 100% pure on every topic.

You won't find Bernie supporters who then voted Hillary, going on and on about why didn't she and hasn't still, released the transcripts of the Goldman Sach's speech.

Why? What is she hiding? I wonder what would happen if I started an OP on that topic?.....Oh right.

[R B Garr]

139. Hillary released decades of tax returns. These false

analogies are why this continues. Bernie attacking her with corruption/purity charges about Wall Street with no proof and then not being transparent himself is the double standard.

Why go we have to keep going over this. It’s not hard to understand that people will not tolerate more falsities to be perpetuated that harm Democrats.

[LiberalLovinLug]

161. You are hillarious

A. I did not bring up Hillary's tax returns

B. Bernie is not in this thread "attacking her with corruption/purity charges about Wall Street"

C. This thread is not about people "not tolerat(ing) more falsities to be perpetuated that harm Democrats." Unless you are referring to falsities like how Bernie must be working secretly with Putin and that's why he hasn't released his returns! Its about not tolerating the trigger happy reactionary hatred against one of our most important and popular allies.


I do not care or want to see those Goldman Sachs transcripts now. Furthermore, I think continuing to demand it would be hurtful to the party, and would only invite RW trolls to jump on top of the pile. I was simply mentioning it as an example of how ridiculous and self defeating it is to be harping on about relatively small issues in hindsight against Hillary, Harris, Warren, Sanders, ...any and all who are working with us to defeat Trump.

Your righteous indignation at my mere mention of the concept of "Why won't Hillary release...." exposes the hypocrisy.

[R B Garr]

234. You are just trying to divert to talk about me personally

which is also a very familiar false tactic used to discount good Democrats/DUers. I have many descriptions about you that come to mind — I guess I’ll settle for “hilarious” as well since that was your word choice for me.

The posts are numbered, so we can see the post you responded to. A summary of it is another false analogy about Bernie being put upon about his taxes. It’s obvious your response was to divert from his lack of transparency by bringing up Hillary and some bogus attacks from 2015.

Hillary willingly released decades of taxes and never acted put upon about it. Bernie has not, yet has tried to claim a moral authority about transparency. That is the double standard.

[JudyM]

281. You are dead-on right.

But the truth isn’t cared about by those with an oppositional agenda.

[R B Garr]

287. Bogus false analogies are what is "oppositional

agenda”. What does that even mean... not worshipping wrongheaded double standards about Democrats? Not being an Independent??

If one is setting themselves up as a moral authority over other politicians, they should be transparent themselves. No hypocrisy.

[MH1]

305. Is Hillary running again in 2020?

If not, I don't care about that speech. If yes, I probably DO care, and will be just as likely as you to get booted from the Clinton DU group for bringing it up there.

But I'm pretty sure she isn't going to run again. Meanwhile, it's looking very likely that Bernie WILL run. At least his "only Bernie will do" supporters that I know, seem to think he's running. THAT is why it continues to be an issue.

[LiberalLovinLug]

306. But releasing tax returns was a part of the common practice in running for office

Which all happened back then.

If he runs, he has not said he still wouldn't again. If runs again and he doesn't, it will be an issue. I am talking about the context in which they happened, and how one story lingers, and one is hushed.

How about the woman on Hillary's campaign that was sexually harassed and she was moved instead of the perp?
Compared to the reaction against Sander's problems with sexual harassment charges from his campaign?

I don't know how anyone who comes to this board regularly cannot see the difference in tone that is somehow allowed against Sanders, despite the rules admonishing he be treated like all Democrats. And its not even the outright irrational hatred and fake news claims against him, its the disrespect, the ROTFLs, the snide inferences of things sinister or selfish in his every appearance.

And Why? is the question. He is our ally, even if you don't like the man personally for some reason.
It is baffling to me how some in here cannot understand the concept of "ally". He will probably never switch permanently to a D, so get over it. Look at the glass half full. He is helping our party, and more importantly, pushing more progressive policies. And speaking from an Independent position, in a lot of ways, only helps convince those that are leary of the Democratic Party for whatever reason. He brings more into the tent.

How would WW2 gone if no one wanted to work with allies? I just don't get the thinking.

[treestar]

124. Why is it weird? He and Dotard are the only ones that haven't done it

[yardwork]

169. That's company I wouldn't want to be in.

[Adrahil]

33. Yeah... wtf?

Bernie promised to release his tax returns. He did not. Which is pretty amazing given his attack son how other folks made money.

Likewise, he is NOT a Democrat, as he has made clear time and again.

[True Blue American]

147. Bernie also

Promised to go back to the Senate as a Democrat. He didnot

No Democrat,no vote!

[Apollyonus]

131. The OP didn't say hatred

... it said "visceral hatred" ... like the mother of all hatreds ....

No one is supposed to ask for tax returns
No one is supposed to say he is not a democrat

That is absolute, metaphysical, colossal, gigantic, humongous hatred ... I mean absolute, metaphysical, colossal, gigantic, humongous visceral hatred.

[trueblue2007]

154. . Asking Sanders to release his tax returns is NOT hatred !!! and, HE IS NOT A DEMOCRAT !!!!!!!

AND .... i think Bernie has a #MeToo problem !!!!

[Cha]

215. Excellent questions.

[David__77]

5. I totally understand your perspective.

....

[Mariana]

6. The level of obsession is really weird. nt.

[David__77]

10. I think it may be obsessive.

"the domination of one's thoughts or feelings by a persistent idea, image, desire, etc."

[treestar]

130. There is the fear of Dotard getting another term

But it's no weirder than still supporting Bernie after all this time, demanding the Hillary not run, and also you still find a few out there who are convinced the DNC fixed it for Hillary and that Bernie really won.

[NurseJackie]

146. In which direction?

[LonePirate]

9. Should we nominate someone who is viewed so divisively within our own party?

Or should we nominate a less divisive person?

[redgreenandblue]

13. I've asked myself this question.

I think the ultimate question is how large the group that hates him really is. One the internet, comparatively few people can make a lot of noise. I guess we will see if he runs in the primaries.

[emulatorloo]

24. Latest primary polling I've seen puts Bernie in third place behind Biden and Harris

It isn’t a matter of “hating” Senator Sanders, as maybe some feel other candidates may be more qualified to be President and will be a better performering candidate than Bernie.

It is wrong to think someone is supporting Senator Warren or Senator Harris simply because that person “hates” Bernie.

Both Warren and Harris have excellent records and would make good Presidential candidates. There are valid reasons to prefer those candidates.

At any rate it is too early to tell how the primary will shake out.

[dawg day]

34. Who here "hates" Bernie Sanders? Not me.

I don't want him to run. I don't think he'd be a good candidate or good president. How is that hatred? There are actually about 300 million Americans I don't think would make a good president-- I don't hate them. Do most people hate-- viscerally or otherwise-- candidates they didn't support? I don't think so.

The super-personalization of his defeat in 2016 baffles me.

[BannonsLiver]

88. I do.

Though that doesn’t necessarily mean I don’t think he’s right on some issues.

[Voltaire2]

291. About 1/2 dozen prolific posters?

Seriously, you don’t see it?

[Tipperary]

302. I lulzed.

[Adrahil]

42. He seems to have faded to polls compared to where he was.

He might recover that, I suppose, but I know a lot of Sanders supporters from 2016 who will not support him this time, if he runs.

[leftynyc]

78. Most of that positive polling

was merely name recognition. As people get to know Sen Harris and the others, he will fall further. As far as I'm concerned, if he doesn't join the party immediately AND release his taxes, I have zero interest in him and wont contribute a dime or knock on one door.

[Autumn]

95. Last I looked he was 3 points behind Harris. Nothing has been posted this week

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211765347?fbclid=IwAR2nivdrie2HQGcJ7wUwH1hoJMxGfBmYkKcgxE0N9VnM1_OCEz_BnNI6Guo

[yardwork]

19. Good question, but ironic, considering.... just saying.

[quakerboy]

135. Why would we stop nominating people who are viewed divisively within our own party?

We did last time. At this point, I cant hardly think of anyone who could run who would not be moderately to majorly divisive among us.

[Initech]

14. I like Bernie, I just don't want to go through the whole Hillary - Bernie debacle again.

DO. NOT. WANT.

[aidbo]

220. Pretty sure Hilary isn't running this time around so you should be ok.

[Bradshaw3]

15. I joined DU after the 2016 election

I was surprised at the vitriol directed at Sanders and his supporters, even though it is against the rules. I saw some good Sanders posters who didn't engage in that get chased away just because of their support for him.

The thing is I supported Hillary in the primary because I thought she had a better chance of winning in November and her approach was more practical, even though I generally agreed more with Bernie's positions.

I don't want Bernie to run again. There are good choices such as Warren who will carry forth the goals almost all of us have, including Bernie and Hillary supporters. I believe in a big tent and wish people would stop refighting the 2016 primary and try to find common ground. It won't happen for some who really seem to enjoy engaging in tribal warfare against those who share 90 percent or more of their beliefs.

[BannonsLiver]

96. I think you missed half of that movie

There are a lot of people here who have posted on how this forum was completely dominated by Bernie supporters DURING the primaries and it was the other way around. Context is always important.

[Bradshaw3]

174. So what others did before justifies what some are doing now?

I've read HRC supporters on here write that before. I have no doubt that Bernie supporters on here were jerks during the primary and vice versa. But since I've been on here it's been very one-sided as far as the attacks on Bernie and his supporters (including those who ended up voting for HRC).

The childishness and vitriol need to stop. As I said, I don't want Bernie to run and if he does don't think he will get far. But I want to include his supporters in the goal of taking back the rest of our government. Ridicule and putdowns and constant (often unjustified) attacks only hurt that cause.

[BannonsLiver]

207. Who said it did?

[manor321]

16. How the hell is "release the birth certificate" in any way the same as "release the tax returns"?

The problem is not Bernie's critics, who have numerous legitimate complaints.

[redgreenandblue]

21. Because it is extremely unlikely that there is anything interesting in them. nt

[yardwork]

26. How do you know this? And wouldn't it be best to just clear it up?

[FrankBooth]

39. What????

That's just stupid. How could you possibly know that? You don't.

And if that is the case then why the reluctance to show us how uninteresting the returns are? That would go a long way for Bernie with his skeptics, but of course he's uninterested in appealing to his skeptics, (a trait shared by someone else we all know.)

Bernie and his supporters justify one set of rules for his campaign, and another for everyone else. TBH, I'm not worried about Bernie this time ... this is not 2016 and Bernie is going to find that out as soon as the primaries start. But his arrogance is annoying.

[LanternWaste]

51. What objectively leads you to that conclusion?

[dawg day]

57. Then what's the problem with releasing them?

Clinton had many 'interesting' things in her tax returns that were used against her both in the primary and the general-- both times against candidates who refused to release THEIR tax returns.

I get it-- it's embarrassing, it might be controversial, it's intrusive, it drags in the spouse's private information too. But... that's true for everyone who runs for president.

[SunSeeker]

66. Exactly. nt

[Demsrule86]

100. I don't believe that or they would have been released.

[treestar]

132. Exactly. There is something

VERY interesting in them.

[Me.]

212. Then Why Doesn't He Release Them?

He and Individual 1 have this in common.

[uponit7771]

246. *** BULLSHIT PRETZEL LOGIC ***

[MrsCoffee]

229. No shit. And how are issues surrounding him and his campaign about equality and harassment anything

like being criticized for not wearing a flag pin?

Or how is saying he is not a Democrat (since he PROUDLY claims he is NOT a Democrat) anything like saying Obama isn't American?


The whole OP is ridiculous.

[SHRED]

17. I want ALL candidates to release their returns

Including him.

[renate]

20. thank you!

I definitely don't want him to run again this time, but I admire him a lot for the duration and sincerity of his progressive views, and it makes me sad to see so many people here hate on him.

[dawg day]

22. You see no difference between a call to release yet another birth certificate --

when the truth is known...

And a call for a candidate to do what candidates usually do to show potential conflicts of interest and interesting things like what charities (if any) they contribute to-- release the tax return?

I think you might be stretching your analogy with that one at least. We have the right to see candidates' financial information, and that is more clear now (post-Trump) than ever.

Sanders might think that demand is way out of line, and so does Trump.

Clinton, on the other hand, took a big risk and released her tax returns, which, btw, included her husband's the former president, and showed they made a whole lot of money post-presidency, which was used against her in the campaign.


Sanders wouldn't do that. Why not? He could have cleared that problem up, and didn't, and so it's pretty natural for us to wonder why he didn't.

[Autumn]

46. Bernie released his 2014 tax documents .

Last edited Tue Feb 5, 2019, 03:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Many who have been candidates and not the eventual nominee have not released their taxes. Bill and Hillary have always released their taxes because of their foundation. Sanders also said if he were the nominee he would release them all.

http://www.taxhistory.org/www/website.nsf/web/presidentialtaxreturns

[George II]

52. He released two pages - the Form 1040 - no Schedule A or Schedule B or any other....

....supporting documents that are submitted to the IRS.

No detail on income, no detail on deductions. And he promised to release his 2015 returns, not his 2014 return.

[quakerboy]

209. And this is what the OP is talking about

http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/presreturns.nsf/Returns/9900B87E8AE6AF0C85257EB4004E9F66/$file/B_Sanders_2014.pdf

7 pages, not 2, Including schedule A and C, and etc.


I'd be a fan of all elected officials, including Bernie, releasing all of their years of tax returns as a matter of course. I think that should be a job requirement. So I think he should release 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, and very soon 2018.

But complaining incorrectly about the details of the 2014 return that was released is exactly what the op was about, I think.

[George II]

222. That was long after the fact, he originally released only the first two pages. The last five pages..

...weren't included in the original release. It's not an "incorrect" complaint. Even Jake Tapper pointed out that he originally only released the first two pages shown in your link, as did Factcheck.org No doubt he caught so much flack that he subsequently submitted the last five pages.

BTW, a Senator's salary in 2014 was $174,000.

[quakerboy]

224. You are only proving the ops point.

The other pages showed nothing that wasnt apparent to anyone from the 1040 itself. Absolutely nothing that would trigger even the mildest of concern from anyone not determined to find fault.

As I said, I'd like to see him release all his tax returns from all years he was in elected office. And every other elected politician as well. And as I didn't say.. I dont plan to vote for him in the next primary, and I dont think he should run in 2020.

But I despise this drive to divide the party. It ONLY helps trump. Which means it hurts American citizens, not to mention the rest of humanity

[uponit7771]

247. "The other pages showed nothing that wasnt apparent" This is false on its face, bad gaslighting

[quakerboy]

271. I dont know you, but this feels like bad faith to me.

What do the additional pages show that wasn't apparent from the 1040?

In fact. What in either entire document, 2 pages or 7, would raise even the least bit of concern?

Im done with this conversation unless there is something substantive. I wont continue to contribute to this attempt to burn the party down from the inside.

[uponit7771]

272. Details, which is the point of the rest of the pages

[R B Garr]

292. Expecting transparency from someone who smears others

by claiming a moral authority is just calling out hypocrisy. Exempting one favored politician from his own standards for others is more like burning the party.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

237. That's one of the simplest returns imaginable.

W-2 income, social security income and a tiny business income. The additional pages are inconsequential. Boring, in fact.

But you know that.

Maybe you didn’t because you don’t seem to understand line 7 transfers from the W2 after tax deductible retirement contributions. So that line won’t equal the $174k salary.

[George II]

242. If "But you (i.e, I) know that" was true, why did you explain it to me? But....

....at his age (over 70-1/2 in 2014) if there were retirement plans and/or 401-k, and/or IRAs, if this was a complete return he would have RMDs (Required Minimum Distributions) from pensions and/or annuities and/or 401-ks and/or IRAs, wouldn't he?

So, if there were tax deductible retirement contributions (are there?) he would be enrolled in retirement plans and there would have been RMDs shown on the first page of his Form 1040. There are none.

The point is, it's still not a complete tax return. To use your term, "But you know that."

[Hassin Bin Sober]

245. Look up thrift savings plan and the "still working" exemptions.

Maybe instead of tax returns you should demand the long-form W2

[George II]

248. There still are RMDs involved.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

250. You didn't look up thrift savings plan and still working exemptions, now did you.

[George II]

251. Yes I did. There still are RMDs involved.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

254. You didn't look too hard, did you.

https://www.fedweek.com/tsp/five-misconceptions-minimum-distributions-tsp/

The TSP has a “still working” exception. If you are still working at your federal job when you are 70 ½ or older, you do not have to take distributions from your Thrift Savings Plan.

https://www.tsp.gov/PlanParticipation/BeneficiaryParticipants/rmdbp.html

The required beginning date is defined as April 1 of the year following the year a participant reaches age 70½, or separates from government service, whichever is later.

[George II]

255. I looked hard enough, and there still is no notation on his tax return about any contributions...

...to pension plans, i.e., it's not a complete tax return. Even Roll Call, who has the entire list of released tax returns, refers to it as "partially released" in 2017 - more than a year after it was partially released.

A couple of interesting links:

http://media.cq.com/media/congress-tax-returns-2017/

http://www.taxhistory.org/www/website.nsf/Web/PresidentialTaxReturns?OpenDocument

By the way, Joe Biden (a year older than Sanders) indicated in his 2015 tax return (a year after Sanders' incomplete 2014 tax return) that he had pension and annuity distributions even while he was still in government service (Vice President) Again, using your line, "But you know that".

Oh, here's another useful link:

http://pfds.opensecrets.org/N00000528_2015_Pres.pdf

[Hassin Bin Sober]

264. Contributions are on the W2 for a W2 employee. This is basic stuff.

[George II]

265. Where is the Form W-2 for this "complete" tax return?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

267. Well at least you are now educated on the TSP and (non) minimum distributions.

My work here is done.

Good day.

[George II]

270. I WAS educated on this before this discussion began. Will anxiously await the complete return.

[Gothmog]

127. How transparent is Bernie Sanders on his tax returns?

[Autumn]

23. You know Bernie is a Russian asset and his goal is to destroy the Dem party because he hates it?

Yeah that's a thing now. It's ridiculous.

[rzemanfl]

177. Bookmarking. n/t

[Apollyonus]

144. Tad Devine.... Manafort ... Roger Stone

Ukrainian Oligarchs ... Russian trolls attacking Hillary ... fake web pages damaging Hillary ....



Someone needs to explain why Tad Devine's scripts to call Hillary corrupt, sick, an email criminal, in the pockets of Goldman Sachs and the Clinton foundation innuendo as being pay to play were the very same ones coming from Russia, Trump and various fake sites.

Until then, there are major coincidences ... only time will tell if they were innocent happenstances or something different.

[R B Garr]

293. Yup, identical messages. What are the odds...

[yardwork]

25. Are you saying that Bernie is not likeable?

I'm not saying that, I'm just asking if that is what you're asking. Because from your OP, it seems like you're saying that Bernie has a likability problem among Democrats?

[treestar]

260. Very very interesting

And good point. He is not female, so we don’t hear this. But visceral hatred sure sounds like not being liked.

[mcar]

29. What is hateful about asking a candidate to release his/her tax returns?

Surely you aren't comparing that completely standard request with the racist birther CT against Obama?

Oh, and by his own words, Sanders isn't a Democrat. Again, how is that hateful?

[redgreenandblue]

31. I've answered the tax return thing above.

In essence, it is not the request by itself, but the obsession with the idea that he has something to hide, which is unlikely.

[mcar]

37. I have no idea if he has something to hide

I do think it's inappropriate for him to not release his returns. And I think it's fair to make a point of that.

[treestar]

134. Your answer is insufficient

Anyone could say that. And it is suspicious that he did not release them, just as it is for the Dotard.

[mountain grammy]

48. It's not, of course.

But you’re being a bit disingenuous if you say that’s all it’s about. Have you actually read some of the posts on the “trash Bernie “ threads? They are extremely hateful.

[mcar]

49. I'm only talking about the tax returns

The other stuff is DU - I've been here a long time and saw worse directed at others.

[BannonsLiver]

98. So what?

[romana]

30. Interesting

It actually reminds me of the over-the-top vitriol directed at anything Hillary Clinton on this site in 2015-2016. There was literally nothing, for many people here, that she could do right, and even the most innocuous things were vociferously criticized. Same for Obama. It's not pleasant being on that side of things, for sure, but sometimes you reap what you sow.

[scheming daemons]

38. The biggest difference is that both Hillary and Obama were registered *DEMOCRATS*

[Scurrilous]

45. Yep.

The old 'feet to the fire' thing can boomerang on you.

[Me.]

32. Excuse Me...He isn't A Real Democrat

He isn't even any type of Democrat by his say so.

[Act_of_Reparation]

58. Neither was Jesus.

And yet he seems pretty popular, considering.

[dawg day]

63. I bet if Jesus ran for president, he'd become a Democrat.

Of course, he'd be an 'illegal alien' and Trump would have him deported.

[Act_of_Reparation]

64. Read your bible, sir.

I sincerely doubt it.

[Adrahil]

240. Then with all due respect...

He wouldn’t deserve the Democratic nomination.

[Act_of_Reparation]

256. I wholeheartedly agree.

I don't want that guy representing me.

The point I've largely failed to drive home here is whether or not a person is actually a Democrat or actually holds liberal positions are tertiary concerns. There are planty of illiberal non-Democrats held in high regard by many. Rather, what seems to color one's opinion of Bernie Sanders is where one stood on his candidacy in the 2016 primaries.

Honestly, I see him as a kind of modern William Jennings Bryan. He ain't gonna save us, that's for sure. But he probably isn't going to destroy us, either. Why people are so wrapped up one way or the other continues to stun me.

[hughee99]

184. If people are concerned about regular candidates because of their

Religious beliefs, how the hell would a candidate who is a major figure in a major religion, who claims to be the son of god, not be an issue?

[George II]

84. Has he announced yet?

[Act_of_Reparation]

110. I don't suspect he will.

He's been awfully quiet this past 2,000 years.

[Me.]

85. Are You Comparing Bernie Sanders To Jesus?

Do you think he also walks on water?

[Hekate]

101. Yes, yes he is. The poster knows this viscerally.

[Act_of_Reparation]

102. Nope.

I'm comparing Jesus to Bernie Sanders. Try to keep up.

[Me.]

112. There Is No Comparison

and nothing to keep up

[Act_of_Reparation]

118. There is.

Neither are "real" Democrats, as noted.

Yet with one, we are expected to be deferential. With the other, it's open season. Why is that?

[Me.]

133. Boy Have You Got It Bad

[mcar]

187. I have no words

[yuiyoshida]

180. why does someone always have to bring religion into the

argument? I am buddhist, I don't bring up Buddha every five minutes... when it comes to politics! Not everyone on this website is Christian.

[still_one]

284. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[BannonsLiver]

103. Wouldn't be the first time one of his supporters did that.

[Act_of_Reparation]

106. I am a Sanders supporter?

Odd. I don't remember campaigning for him.

[BannonsLiver]

109. I couldn't care less. You're the one who invoked Jesus.

And I don’t believe my reply specifically mentions you. Try following along.

[Act_of_Reparation]

117. It's generally difficult to follow unintelligible propositions.

I invoked nothing.

[Renew Deal]

128. You might have missed this post

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11776720

[mcar]

188. Ummm

58. Neither was Jesus.

And yet he seems pretty popular, considering

[True Blue American]

151. Jesus espoused the very things Liberals stand for!

[NastyRiffraff]

226. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Here we go again...the Divine Bernie Sanders. Maybe another bird will land on his shoulder.

[Act_of_Reparation]

261. You're on the right track.

The point is people tend to mythologize popular figures. Bernie Sanders is no exception. The reactions to him, positive or negative, seem largely a reaction to his mythology, not his party identification.

[still_one]

285. and that applies to Jesus also

[peacefrogman]

283. And a bird did land on Sanders podium after all. Ha ha.

[scheming daemons]

36. The big difference is that it was the *RW* that hated Obama.....which is a good thing

.... because it means Obama was on the right side of history.



In Bernie's case, it is the *Left* that is hating on him..... mainly because they feel he is sabotaging their chances to remove Trump from power.

[mcar]

189. Were you here 2008-20016?

The hatred shown to our Democratic president, one of the best in my lifetime, on this Democratic board was constant and disgusting.

Why, it was right here on DU that President Obama was called a "piece of sh!t" by one of the most popular posters around at the time.

Those of us who supported the President had to form our own group - many in the group were regularly subject to ridicule for their support of Barack Obama.

[scheming daemons]

194. I've been here since 2003

Yes, I remember.


Those were trolls who weren't really Democrats attacking on Obama.


Agent Provocateurs.

[mcar]

196. Some were trolls, yes

Others continue to claim to be progressive.

[brandnewday2009]

43. Really?

You're joking, right?

[leftofcool]

44. Bernie should release his tax returns

And no, I do not want him as President.

[Autumn]

77. Bernie released some of his 2014 documents and said if he were the nominee he would release more.

Bernie is a Senator. Do you realize how many members, even Democrats , have not released their Tax returns?

Here are just a few Senators.

Sen. Michael Bennet, D-Colo. Sen. Sherrod Brown, D-Ohio, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., Sen. Amy Klobuchar, D-Minn., Sen. Tom Udall, D-N.M. and a lot more.

Here are a few Reps in Congress.
Rep. Joaquin Castro, D-Texas, Rep. Emanuel Cleaver II, D-Mo., Rep. James E. Clyburn, D-S.C, Rep. John Conyers Jr., D-Mich., Rep. Elijah E. Cummings, D-Md., Rep. Steny H. Hoyer, D-Md., Rep. Barbara Lee, D-Calif., Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., Rep. Ted Lieu, D-Calif., Rep. Beto O’Rourke, D-Texas, and Rep. Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif.


There are a lot more that haven't released their tax returns. I hope you want theirs too .
http://media.cq.com/media/congress-tax-returns-2017/

[George II]

90. That list is from 2017, and only two on your list....

...are being considered as candidates for the Democrat nomination for president, and only one has only announced, just a few days ago (i.e., hasn't been running for several years).

Is there a 2019 version of that list?

[Autumn]

120. 2016 is before 2017 and Bernie is not running. As yet. You can go look for a newer one if

you're that interested, I don't think it will have changed much. But I may be wrong. It almost seems like you are checking my every post to, how did you put it? "help me out"? I may be wrong but it almost seems like stalking to me. Even if I don't respond, you keeps posting to me. I think It's time to hit the red x of bliss.

[George II]

129. He did in 2016, but none of those on the 2017 list ran in 2016.

[R B Garr]

297. When you are posting diversions from the real points then

why would people not point out that obvious fact. Bernie was running on a national ticket and his platform was transparency for his opponent but not for himself. Your response is to smear even more Democrats with unrelated nonsense rather than call him out for hypocrisy. That’s why this keeps happening.

[Gothmog]

221. Bernie Sanders has released few tax returns compared with past and present candidates

Here is a good politifact fact checking of the claim that sanders has provided tax returns https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/apr/06/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-has-released-few-tax-returns-compar/

The 2014 filings Sanders released consist of just the first two summary pages of his Form 1040 and the equivalent summary pages from his home-state Vermont tax form.

Why does this matter? Unlike most of the other candidates, Sanders has not released the succeeding pages -- the nitty gritty detail of things like charitable donations and other types of itemized deductions. For instance, Clinton’s release for tax year 2014 is 44 pages long, or more than 10 times the length of Sanders’ for the same year.
.....

Tax and disclosure experts we contacted agreed that Sanders’ current disclosures are weak by historical standards.....

Joseph J. Thorndike, the Tax Analysts official who heads the Tax History Project, agreed.

Sanders "has not, in fact, released his most recent tax return," Thorndike said. "He has released a portion of that return. The IRS would not accept a Form 1040 as a complete return and neither should voters. Also, it’s worth noting that Sanders has not released any portion of his older returns. … If Mitt Romney had tried to release an incomplete return in 2012, the media would never have accepted it."

[Magoo48]

53. I know, it's embarassing.

He works on behalf of we the people. Not perfectly, but, which of them is?

[SunSeeker]

70. Expecting candidates to release their tax returns is not "embarrassing." nt

[TheFarseer]

263. "He didn't release his tax returns"

Is the nicest thing most people here say about him. Read pretty much any thread for proof.

[LongtimeAZDem]

54. I liked Sanders until June 8, 2016. His conduct after that point completely changed my mind.

[redstatebluegirl]

115. It was his behavior at the convention and his supporters at the convention and after

that did it for me.

[True Blue American]

158. Same for me.

But I never backed him. I found his attitude at the Convention not nice.

[redstatebluegirl]

160. Yep, he was acting like a fox in the henhouse that night.

[True Blue American]

163. So were his supporters.

Bernie did nothing to stop them. I felt like he was enjoying that, like a poor loser.

[redstatebluegirl]

165. Me too. It made me sad to be honest.

[True Blue American]

166. I am sorry

You were disappointed. Been there, done that,too.

[yardwork]

173. That's where he lost me as well.

[Cha]

195. I lost all respect for BS when he

thought it "..was a good idea to have President Obama primaried.. " in 2012.

[AdamGG]

55. Bernie endorsed Hillary, it's not his fault that some psycho Bernie bros. didn't vote for her

I think Bernie brought an impressive amount to the 2016 campaign. He started out at like 2% in the polls and gained a lot of ground. He raised important issues and helped to pull Hillary and the platform more to the left. He wouldn't be my choice for 2020, but I think he gets a lot of undeserved hate on DU. Bernie isn't responsible for what happened in the 2016 general election.

[pnwmom]

73. It's his fault he gave Trump cover for not releasing his tax returns

by not releasing his own, except for the single set of 7 pages that had to be dragged out of him.

[BannonsLiver]

104. It's actually well deserved.

[hughee99]

191. I wonder how many Sanders supporters did not vote for Clinton because

They didn’t like being called racists and sexist by some Clinton supporters during the primary?

[emulatorloo]

208. Sounds like a strawman. Besides, who votes based on somebody being "mean" to them on the Internet?

That would be very odd. I vote because it is my civic duty and I choose the viable candidate who will do the most to move us left and protect our most vulnerable citizens.

There are lots of “mean” people on the Internet, that would never affect who I voted for though. YMMV

[hughee99]

230. So a strawman is when someone sets up a fauty premise

So they can easily argue against it. Which part is faulty? That I suggested that “Bernie bros” we’re called racist and sexist? Of course, for it to be a straw man, I’d have to argue against my premise, which I didn’t.

I know that normal (informed) people don’t decide who to vote for based on internet bullies, but if fake social media accounts change the way people vote, it would seem reasonable to figure that being called names (on the internet or through other media) would affect at least some votes too.

[emulatorloo]

268. I missed the part where Bernie supporters were called racists by Clinton supporters

I was a Bernie supporter and I did not see that on DU. Sorry.

I did see some people who claimed to be “Bernie supporters” falsely accuse some of our AA posters of calling them racists, but that was not true. We found out later those people were not honest.

Be that as it may, if “Internet bullies” caused Bernie supporters to vote for Trump or throwtheir votes away on third party candidates that can’t win, then I don’t think we can say their commitment to progressive change was very strong.

Left-liberal and Progressive voters don’t vote for regressive policies to “punish” some anonymous yo-yo on the Internet.

I vote on policy, sounds like you do as well. There is no “mean person” who can make me vote against my convictions.

I won’t throw seniors, minorites, and people struggling with poverty under the bus because some anonymous person was mean to me on the Internet. It just doesn’t make any sense.

[hughee99]

273. You missed it? You really weren't aware that there was an attempt to paint Sanders

supporters as racists (and sexists, but you didn't argue that in your follow-up post)?

Here's a couple of threads to refresh your memory on the discussion...
https://www.democraticunderground.com/12512057021
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=409169
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6737441

I'm sure I can dig up more if these aren't to your liking (I'll admit I only read them briefly to see that there was some discussion of Sanders and/or his followers being racist or at the very least, not caring at all about racial issues).

In any case, we both know there are the sort of voters who pay attention and make an attempt to inform themselves about the election, and those who don't. Unfortunately, a candidate needs to get both types to win an election. Obama may not have won without the votes of people with very little commitment to progressive change, and Hillary needed more of their votes.

Yes, in a perfect world, people wouldn't go into a polling place with their head up their ass, but they do.

[emulatorloo]

274. The person who wrote the first thread was tombstoned, the second thread doesn't

call Bernie or Sanders supporters racist. Sadly I’m just too tired to read the third one, it is way too long and it is past my bedtime.

But I do appreciate you digging them up for me!

It was definitely a great thing that the poster of the first thread was banned/tombstoned.

Have a great night

[David__77]

56. The inference that he's a Russian agent is particularly bad.

It reminds me of when Lyndon LaRouche said that Walter Mondale was a Soviet agent.

[ismnotwasm]

62. Really.

It reminds me of the RW AND the LW hate against Hilary Clinton.

[progressoid]

67. Heh, heh, heh.

[pnwmom]

69. Or maybe people just want him to meet the same standards as Obama and Hillary.

Release the damn tax returns and join the Democratic party for good, instead of continuing to act aloof and above it all.

[SunSeeker]

72. +1

[LongtimeAZDem]

82. +1

[treestar]

262. Indeed

[Ufta88]

71. If Sanders were vetted by today's stricter standards he'd have never made it into the primaries.

Perhaps that vetting will still be properly done should he run as a Democrat next time around.


All I'll be saying about that matter.
Thanks for the space to do so.

[SunSeeker]

76. Expecting a candidate to release his tax returns is not the same as birtherism.

But you knew that.

[stonecutter357]

79. lol !

[NurseJackie]

80. I'm very interested in seeing his tax returns. Why all the secrecy?

"release the tax returns!!!1111"

I'm very interested in seeing his tax returns. Why all the secrecy? And excuses? And delays?

"look how he waves his hands and turns his head! he disrespects women and minorities!!!111"

You gotta admit, it's very distracting and people think it's rude when someone wags a finger in their face. The most successful politicians know how to "read the room" and I think that's something that Bernie needs to improve on.

"he is secretly a Russian!!111"

That's a new one. I wonder what it is that makes people say that.

"but he isn't a real Democrat!!!111"

That's true. He says so himself. What's the problem with quoting him?

"his health care plan is sexist!!111"

I've seen better.

[onetexan]

81. aren't we overdramatizing here by calling it "hatred"

I for one don't hate Bernie. I just don't think he should be running under the Democratic ticket, nor be allowed to run under the Dems ticket. He has professed (conveniently after that fact) that he is not a Democrat. Why should he be allowed to run again as a Dem?

[Farmer-Rick]

83. That sounds so much like the Russian Troll crap that was being passed around

In 2016, crap like that on Hillary and Bernie was being thrown out from Russian Troll farms and, even here, people were just eating it up. They were passing it around and getting their "feeling" all tied up so they couldn't tell truth from lies.

And I think the Russian trolls are at it again. Be careful what you take as fact. You may "feel" he is sabotaging the Dems but I "feel" he is emphasizing their message. Feelings are a funny thing. They prevent clear thinking and are loved by manipulators, con artist and trolls everywhere.

It worked last time around, hating on Bernie and dividing the Democratic party. We got Trump. Hating on Bernie took a good chunk of liberal voters away from Hillary. The Bernie or bust voters didn't vote for Hillary and many voted for the Green party because they were angry at the Dems over hating on Bernie.

But I'm sure this time around it wont have the exact same results. I'm sure the Russian Trolls aren't instigating this like they did in 2016.

If we do it again during this upcoming election, you know, trash Bernie and get everyone feeling angry, I'm sure the Dems wont lose again because.....................

[emulatorloo]

210. In 2016, Russian trolls attacked Hillary and promoted Trump and Bernie. Let's be historically

accurate. I do get your point about what you believe is happening on the Internet in 2019, but it isn’t correct about 2016.

Indictment: Russians also tried to help Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein presidential campaigns

MICHAEL COLLINS | USA TODAY | 1:13 pm EST February 17, 2018

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/348051002

<snip>

WASHINGTON – It turns out Donald Trump wasn’t the only candidate the Russians allegedly tried to help during the 2016 presidential campaign.

A 37-page indictment resulting from special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation shows that Russian nationals and businesses also worked to boost the campaigns of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and Green party nominee Jill Stein in an effort to damage Democrat Hillary Clinton.

The Russians “engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump,” according to the indictment, which was issued Friday.

The document, which spells out in detail how the Russians worked to support Trump’s campaign, alleges that on or about Feb. 10, 2016, the Russians internally circulated an outline of themes for future content to be posted on social media accounts.

“Specialists were instructed to post content that focused on ‘politics in the USA’ and to ‘use any opportunity to criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump – we support them),’” the indictment said.

<much more at link>

Here is a link to the special prosecutor’s indictment. It goes into a lot of detail about how the trolls operated and includes quotes from their internal documents.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/16/read-robert-muellers-indictment-13-russian-nationals-election-meddling/346688002/

[Farmer-Rick]

299. Oh, so you think they actually helped Bernie in 2016 because he won?

Oh wait, he didn't win then who were they really helping all along? Could it be that both trashing and inflating a candidate at the right time, directed at the right people, would help a third candidate?

The Russian Trolls may have pushed Bernie (and Jill) to divide the Democrats but they certainly were NOT attempting to get him (or her) elected. It was a ploy to divide and conquer and it worked.

I see the same things going on today.

[emulatorloo]

300. Obviously they wanted Trump to win and they wanted the Dem nominee to lose.

They promoted Bernie and said falsehoods in order to damage the Dem nominee. In order to get Trump elected.

The point of my post was to be historically accurate about what the trolls did in 2016. If you haven’t read Muellers indictment already it is a great read!

[Power 2 the People]

86. +1000

[dgauss]

87. It's been weird to watch that build up over the last 2 and a half years.

[pnwmom]

89. Two and a half years has been long enough to release the tax returns. nt

[Champion Jack]

93. You nailed it

[honest.abe]

94. You must see the difference.

The crap about Obama was all totally fabricated.

However..

-- Bernie has not released his tax returns (fact)
-- Bernie is not a Democrat (fact)

The other stuff you listed about Bernie I dont think anyone seriously believes any of that.

[George II]

105. To be honest I haven't seen any of that other stuff here on DU. As for the tax returns....

....people just want to hold him to his promise of a couple of years ago. I don't know of any Democratic contender who hasn't released them (of course there may be some)

[honest.abe]

108. Me either.

Seems this OP just wants stir the pot.

[Cha]

216. Thanks for pointing out the obvious,

honest. abe!

[Demsrule86]

97. It is my opinion that Sen. Sanders won't be the 2020 candidate for two reason. The first is that he

is not a Democrat by choice. The second reason is that many Democrats believe he contributed to our painful `16 loss.

[Honeycombe8]

99. Factually speaking, he is NOT a Democrat at all. He is an Independent who identifies as Socialist.

He is proudly an Independent who self-identifies as a Socialist. He has said so. He is NOT a Democrat. That's what Democrats remind everyone. They don't say he's not a "real" Democrat, because he's not a Democrat at all. That's just a factual statement.

He works against the Democrats in many instances. He is an activist with his own agenda. Sometimes that agenda conforms to the Democratic agenda, but sometimes it doesn't. He travels his own independent socialist path.

[dogman]

107. Tell the Democrats.

https://www.democrats.senate.gov/about-senate-dems/our-caucus
https://www.democrats.senate.gov/
They don't seem to know as much as you.

[Honeycombe8]

111. He is registered as an Independent. That's a fact. He says he is a socialist. That's a fact.

He registered as a Democrat for the purpose of running in 2016. That's a fact.

He is not a Democrat. He is an independent who caucuses with the Democrats.

I can only go by what the politician says. He oughtta know what he is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders

https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2016/07/26/bernie-sanders-to-return-to-senate-as-an-independent/

Don't you know what your own guy is?

[QC]

114. Take it up with Skinner.

[Honeycombe8]

119. Fact: He is an independent who caucuses with the Democrats. He registered as a Dem for 2016 election

He is, by his own statement, an Independent.

Do you know what "caucuses with" means? I added links to my prior post, where he says he is returning to the Senate after the election as an Independent.

To repeat myself: He has his own activist agenda that coincides with that of the Democrats in many, but not all, instances. He has his OWN agenda. Because he's an independent. Duh.

[Autumn]

125. Best words ever spoken... As for Jill Stein: She can go fuck herself.

That and... Fuck Rand Paul.

[honest.abe]

136. Well that was nearly a year and a half ago...

[JudyM]

156. Check again if you'd like. Same DU rule persists unequivocally.

[honest.abe]

170. Do the rules ever change?

[JudyM]

275. The admins know what they're doing.

In this case, the principle as fleshed in Skinner’s messages above still holds.

[honest.abe]

294. What if he runs as 3rd party independent?

[JudyM]

295. He won't.

[honest.abe]

298. But if he did the rules would change... right?

[happybird]

137. That very last line ...

[David__77]

113. He's so popular today!

Bernie in the morning, afternoon, and all night long, today and tomorrow as well.

The coming months will be interesting, as people militate in different directions.

[BannonsLiver]

116. The OP drips with white privilege

President Obama was hounded, obstructed and disrespected for 8 years by racist white conservatives. The idea that Bernie experienced anything close to that is offensive, tone deaf and oh yeah, completely fucking ridiculous.

[jmowreader]

123. Oh my...

1) One of the biggest criticisms of Trump is he won't release his tax returns. Are we supposed to demand THEIR guy release his returns while giving a pass to ours?

2) Not sure about his views on minorities, but the Sanders camp in 2016 had a nonzero amount of sexual harassment going on.

3) The guy honeymooned in the Soviet Union, and he's always called himself a socialist. If he is our candidate in the general election, that's all Trump is going to talk about.

4) He isn't. He's famous for winning the Democratic Senate primary in VT, then refusing to run as a Democrat. Deal with it.

5) I would have to read his plan to decide on this...

[Proud Liberal Dem]

126. Eh

Some of it may be a bit out there but most criticisms of Bernie tend to be based on actual facts, not RW idiocy.

[jgmiller]

138. The problem with Bernie

Is the same problem with Schultz. He might have good intentions and good ideas but he doesn't realize that he can't win and by running he is just helping the people they think are doing bad things. I'm all for Bernie to speak his mind, have rally's, yell about whatever he wants to, propose things, etc. That's all great but at the end of the day needs to make his supporters understand that allowing the GOP to win elections does not come close to helping their causes, it hurts them.

[Hortensis]

167. Yes.

With the addition that I would never trust anyone who would try to misuse party rules to illicitly take a primary away from the choice of the majority of Democrats. 2020's coming, and I can only hope no holes in our electoral procedures would now be possible for anyone to maneuver a stolen election through. These are dangerous times, though, and we need to be watching.

I've wished many times I counted the phony lawsuits filed, and ones threatened to be filed, against the Democratic Parties of many states, claiming election theft on their part. (!) With 50 states there can be a lot, repeated in the press dozens of times, and we so we need to remember the tactic so we can watch out for candidates who will be trying to use it in future. (And hope the first was the last, of course.)

Also that the first candidate running on our slate to tacitly accept the help of a foreign enemy power to defeat a primary opponent, instead of sounding a warning to all Democrats about what was happening, will have been the last. For ever.

I understand many people believe these kinds of means by their candidates are justified in order to win, but if I did I'd become a Republican. They're the champs at ruthless trampling of democracy in pursuit of power.

[Apollyonus]

140. One MAJOR difference

President Obama did nothing to invite it.

On the other hand,

Bernie has participated in divisive rhetoric.
Bernie has damaged the Democratic nominee.
Bernie has refused to drop out and endorse the nominee when it was mathematically certain.
Bernie's supporters coordinated a booing of Democratic icons like John Lewis at the convention.
Bernie NEVER directed his supporters to disavow the Bernie-or-Bust movements. At least not in a very forceful, imperative way.
Bernie didn't in fact release his tax returns -- what is he hiding?
Bernie did not remain a Democrat - he went BACK to being an independent.

Bernie's supporters may see it as unfair -- but this manifestly suggests that Bernie should not run and if he runs, he throws his wholehearted support behind the eventual nominee. He also should remain a Democrat if he wants more love.

[honest.abe]

145. +1!

[Gothmog]

155. I was at the National Convention when Congressman John Lewis was booed

[awesomerwb1]

141. So asking for his tax returns

equals "visceral hatred"?

Thanks for playing.

[dlk]

142. The Post Appears to be an Over-Reaction to Any Criticism of Bernie

Any presidential candidate is subject to close scrutiny and criticism, however, I've noticed many of the Bernie supporters tend to be hyper-sensitive in that regard. Politics at this level is a full-contact sport and as Harry Truman once said, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

[lillypaddle]

143. Count me in as one who has a visceral

DISLIKE for BS. Not quite at the hate level ... yet. There's just something about him - okay, everything about him.

[kennetha]

148. I admit it

I can't stand Bernie and wish he would just go away, be a socialist, and stop trying to hijack the democratic party.

[CentralMass]

149. Like talking points being fed from the same source.

[jalan48]

162. +1

[QC]

225. Daivd Brock's troll shop got the story started on Twitter,

at which point it was taken up by the likes of Amy Siskind, who voted for John McCain in 2008 and argued in 2012 that women should support Sarah Palin. A real winner of a Democrat, isn't she?

[marybourg]

150. I don't think it's "visceral."

If there IS hatred (and I wouldn’t call it that) it’s fact based; a reaction to his behavior and its effects on things important to the critic. “Visceral” is something else entirely.

[hurple]

152. I don't hate Bernie

BUT HE IS NOT A DEMOCRAT!

And should NOT be treated as such.

The ONLY time he identifies as a Democrat is when he has his hand out for DNC money.

And he should be treated as such.

[Roy Rolling]

153. Same old same old

As a union negotiator we would huddle with members as we negotiated with multiple companies at the same time.

Without exception, membership would negotiate the most wonderful contract terms that would never be agreed-upon. After a few of those ideological proposals were shot down we would get down to terms that had a chance of being ratified into a contract.

The point---the best contracts were always negotiated among members and not with "management."

Here, Democrats are fighting among Democrats to find a candidate who best satisfies our inner desire for whatever, and ignoring the reason a candidate is chosen---to represent a fight against Republicans.

It's not about you or me.

[Voltaire2]

164. It is ridiculous.

[Blue_Tires]

171. Sorry, but

Bernie has had two solid years to prove he really wants to be part of this team and not only when it suits him... And I'm still not seeing it

[JonLP24]

172. Why I spend more time on Twitter

Until I get my account locked for unusual behavior (no big deal just had to prove Im not a bot with captcha & text code) debating conservatives in AOC threads of all places. (Isn't it unusual for conservatives to troll AOC tweets?) Meanwhile I get like 60+ responses (100,000+ engagements) but if I respond I'm afraid my account will be locked or worse. Second time both in AOC threads responding to conservatives using facts.

Why I'm spending more time on DU today but it is easier to find progressives to follow. I don't mind disagreements as long as it is fact based. One thing is the block feature is handy for green frogs & other toxic people. I had to block the Palmer Report recently because not only does he use fake news & conspiracy theories he was becoming really unhinged with the Bernie hate.

[zentrum]

175. So true.

[cab67]

176. For some of us, Bernie's not the problem.

My feelings about Sanders himself are decidedly mixed. He says a lot of things I like, but his legislative track record in DC is rather thin, and there are skeletons in his background. And I think it was foolish for him to have continued his campaign after his victory was mathematically impossible.

My problem is with some of his followers. With some of them, there seems to be an ability to deny reality that gives Red Hatters a run for their money. That he didn't get the nomination is obviously the result of a plot by the DNC leadership, they say, and he'd have beaten Trump. Attempts to have any sort of rational discussion are doomed to failure.

I am NOT claiming that everyone who supported Sanders is like this. Most are not. But there's a core of Sanders supporters who just won't see reason. And from what I've seen in social media, some of them are willing to (again) follow a third-party candidate on the theory that any Democrat we throw into the race wouldn't be much better than the shaved orangutan currently living in the White House.

[pnwmom]

179. Right, and they somehow think Sanders would have trounced Trump -- as if the Russians

would have let him.

(And if the Russians would have been equally happy with Bernie, what would that tell us?)

[mysteryowl]

178. I appreciate your post and agree.

[pdsimdars]

181. Creatures of darkness fear the light.

[ZeroSomeBrains]

182. But I've been told Bernie's a Russian Agent

He's a Russian agent hellbent on destroying the democratic party from within by advocating for Medicare for All. And he went to Russia on his honeymoon so he must have gotten the orders from the Russians then on how to destroy the democratic party.

[MuseRider]

200. Some days you have to wonder

how Hannity's network grabbed so many people. That one still elicits a belly laugh from me until I realize I am in the same party as the one or one's who say that.

[ZeroSomeBrains]

211. I understand having some issues with Bernie

But the overwhelming level of outrage over this or that is mind numbing. There are worse things going on in the world than Bernie like Yemen's children dying of hunger or a potential war we might be starting in Venezuela. But it seems like those issues aren't as important to some than the "Bernie's a traitor or destroying the democratic party" or whatever new crap they come up with.

[MuseRider]

219. Agreed.

I have hidden so many because I am sure they are trolls. They are still here however because they are the smart one's. They are also usually the people who start all of this. I try not to take the bait but sometimes I just cannot help myself.

They would not be happy with Bernie in the party either. He is not in the party because he KNOWS he does not fit with the "support this because we all mostly support it." They would not be happy either way. The party leaders seem fine with this arrangement.

[hughee99]

183. You say Bernie isn't a real democrat like that's a matter of opinion

Not like this is something Sanders himself has said over and over.

[JonLP24]

193. He is a Democratic Socialist

Which we could use more of in America. When you go by his voting record he is more of a Democrat or a liberal than Joe Manchin.

Sanders had the #2 most liberal voting record in the Senate in 2016 & 2017.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2016/senate/ideology

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2017/senate/ideology

I'm a registered Democrat not because of the brand but to support progressive/liberal policies.

[hughee99]

198. I'm not saying his politics aren't well aligned with the party

But “Democrat” is a specific thing, and Sanders, by his own words, has purposefully gone out of his way to avoid being called one. That’s his choice, but you can’t have it both ways. I don’t dislike Sanders, but it is completely accurate to say that the person who turned down the Democratic nomination for Senate in 2018, only 7 months ago, is not a Democrat.

[JonLP24]

205. He does that in agreement with the Democratic Party ironically

He caucasus with the Democrats and they agreed not to fund his opponent if he agreed to run under the Democratic Party in Vermont and when he wins he turns it down. Obama campaigned for his Senate election in 2012.

[hughee99]

233. He would also have the option to actually run as a Dem

And accept the party’s nomination. He has chosen not to do that (it’s not the Dem party that’s preventing him from doing it). The fact that he’s got a deal with the party still doesn’t make him a Dem, though, but you already know that.

[JonLP24]

239. He could just run as an Independent in Vermont and beat both the Democrat and the Republican

but the party wouldn't like that so that is why they want him to run in the Democratic primary. If that is the one hang up people have. There are other people I couldn't support like Bloomberg whether he is a Democrat or not that is mostly because of "stop and frisk". That isn't a Democrat to me but as long as someone is registered one they are a Democrat. Bloomberg has changed affiliations so many times but I think this year he is a Democrat.

[hughee99]

252. I am not a Bloomberg fan, and I do not dislike Bernie,

But nothing you say will change the fact that he’s not actually a member of the party. And you can say that doesn’t really matter but the DNC passed a rule last summer to specifically say that it does.

Saying he isn’t a democrat isn’t “visceral hatred”, it’s actual fact.

[Demit]

213. "When you go by his voting record he is more of a Democrat..."

And when you go by his own declaration he is not.

He doesn't want to BE a Democrat. Except when there's money and advantages involved. Then he says OK, poof! I'm a Democrat.

[JonLP24]

223. He is clear he has always been a Democratic Socialist

Before they became a known quality their platform used to include working within the Democratic Party they are realistic in their goals. I understand why people are upset at Ralph Nader or Jill Stein but Bernie Sanders ran as a Democrat.

He wasn't someone that was groomed to be President like given a job in an Administration or VP or anything like that and of the 3 major candidates Cruz, Trump, Clinton, Sanders he scored the lowest in sociopath scores. Trump is in Hitler territory.

I don't want hot link the image the scores are at the link on the bottom of the page.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/of-psychopaths-and-presidential-candidates/

[sheshe2]

232. Did you read what you posted?

2016 Report Cards
All Senators / Ideology Score
These statistics dissect the legislative records of Members of Congress during the 114th Congress (Jan 6, 2015-Jan 3, 2017), as of Aug 24, 2017.

A higher or lower number below doesn’t necessarily make a legislator any better or worse, or more or less effective, than other Members of Congress. We present these statistics for you to understand the quantitative aspects of legislating and make your own judgements based on what legislative activities you think are important.

Keep in mind that there are many important aspects of being a legislator besides what can be measured, such as constituent services and performing oversight of the executive branch, which aren’t reflected here.

[JonLP24]

238. I realize that

It doesn't include amendments or other things like that but you can click on each Senator to find more specific scores this one is strictly ideology scores meaning Inhofe is most conservative while Warren was most liberal in 2016 and Franken in 2017. Sanders is most liberal over a 10 year period. I've read Govtrack extensively it also scores with with working with the House which Sanders scored high at before he ran in 2016.

I use this for more recent votes this is Sinema (I have it bookmarked because she is my Senator) but you can use it for any legislature.

https://projects.propublica.org/represent/members/S001191-kyrsten-sinema

[sheshe2]

241. It is also a year and a half old. nt

[JonLP24]

243. I would like some 2018 numbers

I hope they have them soon. I've used them as a resource for years.

https://projects.propublica.org/represent/members/S000033-bernard-sanders

[sheshe2]

244. OK

[Locrian]

185. + infinity - n/t

[Cha]

192. BS brings it on himself with his own words..

Bernie: 'My Opponents' Want Black, White, Gay, Latino or Women Candidates ‘Regardless of What They Stand For’ "

After the 2016 election, Sanders hit a similar theme when he told a crowd of supporters “It’s not good enough for somebody to say ‘hey I’m a Latina vote for me’ that is not good enough,” and went on to add “It is not good enough for somebody to say, ‘I’m a woman, vote for me.'”

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211722251

[elleng]

197. Yes. x(

[Caliman73]

199. There are definitely some who can be described as "hating" Sanders.

There are also some viable critiques on his approach and behavior. The problem is that it appears any critique is seen as "visceral hatred" and moving between the two extremes to have a real conversation about both the positives and negatives that Sanders brings.

Sanders should release his tax returns, like every other Democratic candidate should. For Sanders specifically, this is an issue of integrity. He rails against the wealthy for taking advantage of the tax code. His reluctance to release his own taxes suggest that there is something he does not want people to know. You know that his opponent in the 2016 primary released many years of tax returns as did other Presidential candidates.

Sanders does not "disrespect" women and minorities. He does however, show a very big blind spot in how he addresses the issue of race and gender. Sanders has focused almost exclusively on economic justice, but I have said before that you cannot focus only on money distribution without understanding how race and gender figure into the equation. This is not only "the rich want to take from the rest of us". This is the rich have systematically kept people of color and women from participating in the distribution and have used non-rich White men as a bulwark against access by labeling only White men as "the working class" or "blue collar workers". Sanders wants everyone to unite without understanding that those very same people women and POC should unite with, have thrown us under the bus time and time again. His message, which is good economically, comes off as condescending to women and POC.

No one says he is Russian or in league with them. You cannot however, deny that Russian trolls used Sanders' campaign to try to damage Clinton in the primaries. That has been established as part of the findings from the election.

Sanders is not a Democratic Party member. He caucuses with Democrats and has been pretty reliable voting for policies espoused by Democrats. He also criticizes Democrats regularly (not saying that it is completely invalid either) and tends to do it during inopportune times. His running as a Democrat in Vermont, winning, then not accepting the nomination to run as an independent smacks oddly as well.

I have not heard the criticism of his health care plan so I cannot speak to it.

I can't deny that there is visceral hate for Sanders. I do think however that the other side also exists where Sanders' flaws are overlooked and he is found to be blameless for things that he clearly has problems with. I don't see a problem with support for Sanders but I also understand why he is not high on the list of some Democrats. I supported him in the primary but saw his continued candidacy and continued criticism of Clinton up to an including at the convention as continuing to weaken her. His blind spot on race and gender is what makes me not support a run this time. If he does win the Democratic primary for 2020 however, I will enthusiastically support him rather than allow Trump to skate to another term.

[Anon-C]

203. You sang my song, Caliman73. Very well put.

[David__77]

227. I disagree with your statement: "No one says he is Russian or in league with them."

I believe that I've read people strongly assert that.

https://www.thenation.com/article/bernie-sanders-is-a-russian-agent-and-other-things-i-learned-this-week/

[honest.abe]

228. A few nitwits on Twitter?!?

For all we know they are bots just trying to stir up anger.

No one with any credibility seriously believes he is Russian agent.

[Caliman73]

235. Okay. There are silly people on all sides.

I stated as much. Like the author of the article, I was not aware of people saying he was being paid by Russia. It is a crazy and stupid claim. Like I said, there are people who are extreme in their opposition to Sanders and people who blindly defend everything he does.
Neither extreme is good for the conversation or the country.

[honest.abe]

231. Very well stated.

[WeekiWater]

204. You are comparing racism to financial political transparency.

Comparing Sanders writing rape fantasies to Obama being called a Muslim.

People claiming Obama isn't a real American with the actual votes of Sanders supporting Russian oligarchs.

Impressive. Very impressive.

[theboss]

206. I've been gone a while, but my posting here goes back to the Bush years

My position - and at one time the position of this site - has always been "Support Democrats." My fundamental issue with Bernie is that he's in the party when it's convenient and outside when it's convenient. And when it's convenient always seems to rely on what is best for raising his personal profile.

[Ufta88]

218. Visceral? Hardly. Hey if he can't take a slight dose of what Hillary went thru then ....

Stop whining. Grow up.
Its politics.
No one's protected in 2020, judging by the visceral hate being doled out to every Dem that's announced their candidacy so far.
NO ONE IS IMMUNED TO IT.
Not even Bernie Sanders. Not this time around.
He is just one of many today.

That is simply a fact of politics as we know it anymore.
I'm sure Sanders has enough creds to his name to withstand an equal amount of what ALL who stand before our country and claim a political position are forced to deal with.

He's a grown up. He can handle it.

[Fresh_Start]

236. I will admit that to me, Bernie contributed to Trump victory

and it is very difficult for me to not be extremely angry at Bernie for that

It wasn't only his supporters.
It was also Bernie's teams actions.
And Bernie's lukewarm support for Hillary.

So the only way I will be a Bernie fan, is if he does a good job being a senator and stops making everything about the Bernie show.

[MH1]

266. Well said.

He got my primary vote in 2016. Never again. Unless (maybe) I move to Vermont and vote for him for Senator.

I really feel that he didn't show leadership as a team player to get Hillary elected. And we are all paying the price now. And NOW he wants to do this shit AGAIN? Eff that.

[uponit7771]

249. Could same could be said about Sanders "Visceral Hatred" of democrats looking at Sanders comments ..

... from the outside?

Thx in advance

[aidbo]

253. You know who is a REAL Democrat? Ralph Northam. He can moonwalk too!

[ecstatic]

257. He attacks democrats and that is triggering, especially considering where we're at

right now. Also, the problem is that he acts like he's the decider on who or what is progressive; meanwhile, he's in bed with Russia and the NRA and refused to release his taxes. So those 2 are a bad combination. Any other person who both attacks democrats and is a hypocrite would likely be regarded the same way. It's not rocket science or anything special or magical about him in particular.

[Arazi]

258. Yup. The anti-Semitism is as disgusting as the racism

[JudyM]

277. +1

such a suggestion would be met with blithe denial, of course.

[David__77]

282. Actually, anti-Semitism is racism.

...

[still_one]

286. I suspect you will get an arguement from some on that weather it is a race, religion or both.

[TheFarseer]

259. +1

It’s really gross that someone with a life long record of being on the right side of every Democratic issue is treated as a pariah and a bitter enemy.

[MrGrieves]

269. So maybe go hang out at BernieUnderground.com?

[MrGrieves]

276. I find it odd that this chum was thrown in the water today.

[tavernier]

278. Yawn.

[GulfCoast66]

288. What a fucking straw man you have set up...

Of course all the claims against President Obama are totally bullshit.

Then you expect us to not notice that half of the supposed slurs you claims about Bernie are in fact gods honest truth?

1. He has, in fact, despite saying he would, not released his tax returns. So I guess I can’t criticize Trump for the same?

2. He is, in fact, not a member of the Democratic Party.

A few of your other supposed slurs against him could be argued about, but I just pick out the 2 undeniable facts.

Defend him however you want, but trying to equate people looking at the facts of his record with the racial hate president Obama endured is, well, I guess, not surprising. But incredibly insulting all the same.

[Docreed2003]

301. +1

[quickesst]

289. I want to know....

..what the significance of the number 111 is.

Isn't there a Chameleon Party website you can go to?

[aidbo]

303. The !1 phenomenon is to represent a typo resulting in overzealous typing. It's not some hidden code.

The "!1" Phenomenon is a well-known but sparsely documented typo that is commonly found in online conversations. In many cases, a string of exclamation marks followed by "1" can be read as a careless typo, though it has been increasingly used with intention to express a sense of urgency or excitement. It is considered part of leetspeak, an alternative alphabet for the English-speaking internet users.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-1-phenomenon?full=1

[quickesst]

308. Ok

I guess I just don't understand why they didn't use more of these. !!!!!

[Trumpocalypse]

290. The cult of personality

demands blind devotion. Reasonable criticisms are seen as hatred by cultists.

[LongtimeAZDem]

304. +1

[betsuni]

296. LOL "visceral"

[apnu]

307. Of these quotes, its true Bernie isn't a real Democrat.

He is an independent Senator from Vermont. Who briefly was a member of the Democratic party. But when he realized he didn't have the power in the party he thought he had, he ran away.

If Bernie wants to run, he can. he can work and get all the signatures he needs to be on every state's ballot. He can fund his own campaign (will cost something like a billion dollars if we look at past RNC and DNC budgets). He can build his own infrastructure, and ground game.