If Northam admitted on Friday to raping a woman 35 years ago, would you insist he not step down

[Empowerer]

on the basis that the rape was first uncovered by a GOP operative, he hasn't raped a woman in the last 35 years, and he has consistently voted for pro-women legislation?

[DURHAM D]

1. Do you think blackface equals rape? nt

[SCantiGOP]

13. It does in the bullshit OP

Not sure why anyone would start a thread like this.

[Empowerer]

29. Where does my OP claim or even suggest that they're the same?

It does no such thing.

[atreides1]

53. Then why that example?

[Empowerer]

59. See my post below

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11769287

[brooklynite]

51. Okay, so now we've established an upper limit threshold...

Now, what's your lower threshold?

[guillaumeb]

2. And if he changed his story?

What then?

[meadowlander]

3. Pretty sure rape was still a crime 35 years ago

Whereas being a dumbass wasn’t and still isn’t. Also, there’s a cure for being a dumbass ( growing up ) but not for being a rapist.

[EffieBlack]

14. So, the deciding factor is if the wrongdoing was actually a CRIME?

What if I refined the hypo? What if the woman he raped was his wife? Since spousal rape was not illegal in Virginia until 1986, this would not have been a crime.

If Northam had raped his wife in 1984, would the the amount of time that's elapsed since the act was committed, the fact that it was revealed by the GOP or how well he's behaved lead you to argue that he shouldn't be forced to step down?

If not, where is the dividing line between a non-criminal rape and embracing racial terrorism and degradation that makes the difference for you in how willing someone should be to forgive and forget?

[obamanut2012]

22. Don't let the OP divide us

That is what the OP is -- divisive bait.

[EffieBlack]

23. I don't see it that way. I LOVE hypotheticals!

They really make me think. And this is an interesting one.

If thinking about situations from different angles and testing your own way of thinking is "divisive" the hypothetical isn't the problem.

[dawg day]

78. Please stop talking about rape.

There is simply no way you are going to make a cogent point about something else by comparing it to rape.

It's like we're talking about some bad thing that happens, and someone says, "What about the Holocaust!"
It's too out of topic, out of proportion, upsetting.

We end up arguing about rape and missing whatever your point is about the other thing.

Analogies confuse as much as they elucidate.

[Empowerer]

30. Spousal rape wasn't: a crime in Virginia 35 years ago

[juxtaposed]

4. this is getting strange

[LuvNewcastle]

20. Yes it is.

[harumph]

5. Are u serious?

What Northam did was exceedingly racist and I believe he should step down because it raises
serious doubts about whether he intends to equitably serve, or can be trusted to equitably serve all his constituents.

That said, appearing in blackface (as terrible as it is...) is not rape.
I appreciate your frustration with people saying he shouldn't step down (I share the frustration) - but -
blackface does not equal rape - so I think the analogy fails.

[delisen]

10. Northam has a record of public service to examine.

Has he served equitably?

I think if you drew up a list of ways in which he has not served equitably you might be able to convince others.

[EffieBlack]

16. No, blackface doesn't equal rape. but where is the line drawn?

Does it make a difference that one act is a crime and the other is not?

If so, what if Northam had raped his wife, which wouldn't have been a crime in 1984?

[Goodheart]

6. Say what?

[X_Digger]

7. Here, class, we have a perfect example of a false equivalence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

[delisen]

8. This post is is a complete turn off for me. Getting the sense of hidden agendas

and public opinion manipulation.

As my tag line states: I get more and more cynical but it is never enough

[ProudLib72]

9. WTF?

Did I just read what I just read?

[aphasetome]

11. Really

This is a whole new level of stupid.I came to DU in 2003,never post but read every day.
Let the voters of his state deal with it.People getting the vapors over this really is strange to me.

[Loki Liesmith]

12. Lol I think Northam should resign but this is just silly

[GulfCoast66]

15. Of course. That is a serious felony.

No one is accusing him of a crime.


This is a huge false equivalency. And surly you realize that.

[UniteFightBack]

17. What the fuck type of an analogy is this?

[revmclaren]

18. As a childhood survivor of rape by a family member and a friend,

I find this op appalling and insensitive.

[obamanut2012]

19. Rape is a crime, and you are equating this crime agaonst a woman

With blackface?

Obtuse as hell or ratfucking?

[EffieBlack]

25. What if this was a spousal rape that wasn't a crime in Virginia at the time?

Would that make a difference to you? If not, the fact that it's a crime is irrelevant, isn't it?

[GulfCoast66]

66. You and I normally agree

But this is just over the line.

I grew up in the rural and suburban south in the 70’s. I used racist and homophobic language I would stand up against now.

But equating that to rape, which my family has experience with is insulting.

I read your OP about how harmful this is and did not comment cause I respect you.

[EffieBlack]

67. I don't think this OP equates blackface with rape

[GulfCoast66]

70. I guess we read it differently.

And I know we have different perspectives on this issues.

But when I was in my teens and twenties I used very racist and homophobic and other language I would not use now. In fact, if and when I hear it I give strong push back. Never did black face but can’t say I wouldn’t have back then.

I grew up in the rural and suburban south. It’s what we heard. But I grew. I can’t condemn someone for doing the exact thing I have done if he or she seems to have taken the same path I have. Which is to move to a more enlightened position. Now if they are still towing that same racist and homophobic line then I will cast derision on them.

And Effie, I don’t know and am not asking your age, but if your were my age and were 19 in 1984 as I was, were you in favor of Marriage equality? If so, you were a better person than I!

I don’t much about this guy except he is pro-choice and a Democrat. Maybe he needs to resign.

But I sure as hell wish he was my governor rather than the tea party guy Florida just got.

Look forward to seeing more of your posts.

[EffieBlack]

72. I'm a little older than you

Back then I didn't oppose marriage equality. But I didn't really support it either - I actually just didn't care one way or another, but didn't think it was a big deal and didn't understand why other people thought it was. My evolution was to go from thinking it wasn't important to understanding why it was important.

Does that make sense?

[GulfCoast66]

75. Makes total sense.

But the very idea of it where I lived in the 80s never ever came up.

Hell, in the rural parts of that state(Arkansas) gay kids are still oppressed to the point of moving, hiding their orientation or commiting suicide.

It was a big deal that we elected the first African American class President in our high schools history in 1984. Ironically, he is now openly gay! And many of us joked about it then! But we were in a urban area.

I’m not excusing the Virginia Governor, but since he did nothing I can’t see me doing at that time I can’t, without being a hypocrite, condemn him out right. Or say he is not really a democrat.

I understand we come at this issue from polar opposite positions. And even if we disagree I respect your opinion.

[EffieBlack]

76. I think the difference is that, although you can see yourself doing the same thing, you are not a

public official running for governor or other high office. People in those situations are and should be held to a higher standard. He can't undo what he did in the past and maybe he evolved and grew. But the fact that he never acknowledged it in his public life and instead left it out there to be discovered in a way that smacked it in the face of his supporters is inexplicable and inexcusable.

He said in his statement that he realizes the pain and distrust this caused and he committed to BEGINNING the long process of atoning for his conduct. So, he acknowledged that this conduct needed to be rectified and that he hadn't even started to do it until Friday? What does that say about him. And then on Saturday, he threw out those those ridiculous excuses, making a bad situation even worse.

So, this isn't about punishing a man for something he did 35 years ago. This is about holding a high elected official to a standard we should expect from people who ask for our vote and our trust.

As private citizens, we don't have to publish our tax returns online. But if we run for president, people have a right to see our tax returns and other financial information. As private citizens, we don't have to share our marital lives and interpersonal relationships with anyone. But if we run for office, an extramarital affair is fair game.

By the same token, if we behave in bad or even reprehensible ways as young adults, that's really no one's business. But if we decide to run for public office, that behavior is subject to scrutiny and if it involves or reveals our morality, people have a right to judge us on it. And if it's something we DON'T want to be judged on, it's our responsibility to make a special effort to make amends for it. That's one of the prices we pay for the public career we choose.

[Empowerer]

27. I'm not equating the two.

I'm testing where the line is drawn. Does the fact that one is a crime and one isn't. What if, as Effie posed, neither of the acts were criminal. Is there still a distinction that makes a difference in how Northam should be treated? if so, what is it?

[Mystery sage]

21. Not a good example

Rape-A physical type of harm to someone sexually.

Blackface- A insensitive prank (at best) and racist mocking (at worst) is a mental attack at black people and offensive to them.

Personally if he was clowning around back then then I have no problem with it (it was long ago) so long he changed some time between then.

Rape on the other hand should be treated like this and more.

Remember: forgiveness is weighed on the pain and time when the victims were hurt at that time.

The thing I hate is that he is a coward that keeps changing his story.

[Empowerer]

28. Then you're saying if Northam had inflicted physical harm on someone,

the GOP plot/he hasn't done it since argument is not sufficient to justify his remaining in office, but if the wrongdoing was a racist act that celebrated racial terrorism but didn't inflict actual physical, that is sufficient justification for him to keep his seat?

[elias7]

77. Was he celebrating racial terrorism?

I would suspect more likely he had no clue what he was doing, no intent to terrorize, probably no black person in sight, probably having drunken fun with his friends in a culture where this is what he grew up with. Terrorism, or “the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims” is not likely the root of his actions here.

I think one big asssumption people are making is that he was aware of his actions as 1) fear inspiring to blacks and 2) memorable to him.

Unfortunately, we cannot truly know what is in his heart, and he needs to take the highest road possible, especially in this Trumpian era.

[Iggo]

52. Forgiveness has (or should have) nothing to do with his keeping his job.

Blackface? You're gone.

Make amends? I forgive you. But you're still gone.

[EffieBlack]

24. This is a great hypo

The responses are very interesting.

[Empowerer]

26. Yes

[LuvNewcastle]

31. What if Northam dropped acid, dressed up like

Ronald McDonald, and fucked a chicken 35 years ago? Would it have been all right if he had told everybody about it while he was running for governor?

[SCantiGOP]

48. Ha!! That situation is exactly why

I could never run for public office.
(and the chicken was a consenting adult)

[Empowerer]

34. What if the crime was smoking pot?

Where do you draw the line between a college "stunt" and the crime when determining how and whether he can atone for and redeemed of the act? Is the fact that one is a crime and one isn't a crime the deciding factor? If not, what should it be?

[Empowerer]

40. So the fact that something is a crime isn't the deciding factor

[Empowerer]

42. Spousal rape wasn't a crime in Virginia in 1984 unless the parties were living apart

[Empowerer]

44. Per your request

Marital rape became a crime in Virginia in 1986.

Strong Va. Spouse Rape Bill Advances
By Molly Moore and
Tom Sherwood
February 10, 1986

The Virginia House, paving the way for sweeping changes in the state's rape laws, today approved a bill that would broaden a person's ability to file criminal charges against his or her spouse for sexual assault.

The proposed law would allow a wife or husband to file rape charges against his or her spouse in cases of forced sexual intercourse when the victim receives serious physical injuries. Under current law, a spouse can be prosecuted for marital rape only when the couple is living apart.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1986/02/10/strong-va-spouse-rape-bill-advances/95bd03cb-3bce-4688-87ed-7a8e10a9806d/?utm_term=.7832952ea611

[Empowerer]

46. I never said blackface was a crime. Where did you get that?

[Empowerer]

50. I made no such comparison.

I asked how people would respond to Northam if he had raped someone.

You are making the comparison, not I.

And I'm not a dude.

[WeekiWater]

33. Not if he only wrote about it. You can write rape fantasies and get millions of votes in a primary.

And that would be a more accurate comparison.

[EffieBlack]

35. Funny thing -

I posed a couple of hypotheticals that DIDN'T involve an actual crime and got the same kind of pushbacks you're getting here. So I don't think the fact that your hypo involves a crime is really the problem ...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211763704
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211761043

[Hassin Bin Sober]

36. Give it a rest

[Empowerer]

38. No

You're certainly free to ignore me or trash my threads if you find them tiresome.

[Alpeduez21]

37. Northam should resign

So many responses reply that racism isn't a crime. That's kind of the point of this discussion, I think.

The answer is, of course he should step down if he admitted to rape(or be assigned to the Supreme Court).

No, Northam did not commit a crime. He just subjugated and humiliated a race of human beings for his and his buddies entertainment.
He's just a good Ol' boy never meaning no harm, though.

The criticisms of divisiveness are unfair. Asking us (WP) to pay attention to racist issues is not divisive. It is sad that requests for such attention need requesting.

[USALiberal]

49. This cannot be a serious post. nt

[peacefrogman]

54. If Northam had physically abused a POC, then you could have that argument.

It is a bit offensive comparing a black face to rape.

I agree Northam should step down. He used coonman as a nick name thru his teenage years. He clearly held the southern Republican position thru 2004.

But to compare rape to what Northam did is wrong.

[Empowerer]

56. The question doesn't compare rape to blackface. That's your inference

I'm asking about redemption and atonement and how they apply in different situations. That is NOT the same as saying those situations are comprable.

Do you believe that there are some things that can never be atoned for while other things can be? If so, what makes the difference?

Do you think that if politician commited a crime in the past, they can never atone for it, but if they did engaged in non criminal behavior that was deeply offensive to society, they can?

Is every criminal act ineligible for atonement? Are there any crimes that can be atoned for?

These are interesting questions - ateast to me. It's unfortunate that so many people are giving it a knee-jerk reaction rather than thinking them through and coming up with thoughtful answers.

[EffieBlack]

61. I think I'm the only one here who totally gets your question

Oh, well ...

[peacefrogman]

62. You might want to reflect yourself why so many are giving you this "knee jerk" reaction.

And then maybe listen to those that have experienced assault having an issue with your comparison and that is what it is, instead of dismissing their own experience. Listening works all the way around. Just as I am doing a lot of listening with the AA community.

For me personally, having the nick name he did and others calling him the nickname thru out teenage years, in the deep south, says something to me about who he was. I can only imagine the skit the black face and KKK were performing while in costume and nothing but a horrid image comes to mind.

I think the black community has, in unity, expressed their opinion and demand. The Democratic Party has been pretty consistent. It works for me.

[Empowerer]

64. I understand your point

and I would agree with it IF I had in any way compared rape with blackface, which I didn't do because they are not comparable. In fact, I've done the opposite.

Moreover, I've said repeatedly in this thread that I'm not making such a comparison and have very clearly and in great detail explained my point and my questions.

[peacefrogman]

65. From your post, it sounds you are addressing those not wanting him to step down 35 yrs after black

face.

So you ask, if it was rape, would you hold the same opinion.

You say you are not comparing. Why did every single post hear you comparing? Ok, so. I do not want to play any more. There was a reason every single post heard a comparison, and it is offensive. You just keep on saying you weren't.

[EffieBlack]

68. Every single post DOESN'T interpret it the way you do

I understand exactly what she's saying and never thought she was equating rape to blackface. The fact that most of the people who felt the need to respond to the OP interpreted it a certain way doesn't mean that their interpretation is correct.

[peacefrogman]

74. I think the language exactly compares the two and is offensive. We obviously see it differently.

Then to suggest that society would be all up in arms if it was something offensive toward women ignores the reality women live in. All we need do is look at examples of Trump and Kavanaugh. So if one does want to do a comparative conversation between the misogyny and racism, it would fail. Yes, they would still be elected President and put on the Supreme Court, without an apology or even acknowledgment.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

55. What kind of comparison is that?!

[Empowerer]

57. It's not.

[Bettie]

58. OK, Blackface is awful, but are you really going to say that it

is equivalent to rape? Really?

Sorry, not the same at all.

[Empowerer]

60. I never said they're equivalent because I don't think they are.

Please read my post below. Maybe you'll better understand the point of my

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11769287

[delisen]

63. Beginning to look like a prog stampede-familiar from 2016

Last edited Tue Feb 5, 2019, 04:27 AM - Edit history (1)

We as Democrats seem to be developing a case of the Stones, as in Roger.

The announced targets in the Democratic Party are supposed to be Democrats who are more conservative than there current districts.

The analogy to rape of a woman is for me a non-starter. It reminds me of Susan Sarando's infamous comment on vagina voters (referring to women as their body parts).

[McCamy Taylor]

69. Rape is a crime. Better analogy would be if he sexually harassed a woman on the job.

No, wait. That was a crime back then, too. How about he made rude remarks at a passing woman? Called her a slut or something for wearing her skirt too short? As part of a fraternity prank. I personally think that ever having been a member of a sorority or a fraternity should disqualify one from public office, but my politics are rather extreme.

But why are we trying to equate the institutionalized violence against members of another race or ethnic group to institutionalized violence against people based upon their gender? Or their age, or disability or their sexuality? Every person's experience of violence is unique. And no one has a monopoly on victim-hood.

[EffieBlack]

71. I actually offered similar hypotheticals yesterday

The responses were interesting - especially the plethora of "whataboutism" with very few of the people responding actually answering the question.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211763704
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211761043

I suspect that much of the objection to these kinds of questions are not based on what folks are saying they are.

[dlk]

73. This is a False Analogy, Rape is a Felony, Blackface Isn't Illegal

and the point gets lost.

[NoMoreRepugs]

79. This is getting ridiculous. What if's are being debated?

To hold someone liable for what they might have done in college 30+ years ago that did not physically harm or threaten someone's well being should quite honestly put a whole bunch of us in jeopardy. I was at a private university 1967 thru 1971, I'm not sure I knew anyone who didnt do something that the daffodils here would not consider worthy of losing a public sector job over or having social media scorn hurled at them.

It's called growing up. Pretty sure we all do it.

There are times I wonder how are we going to win the fight for the future of this country if everyone has to pass so damn many purity tests.

[quickesst]

80. If you don't think...

... you're comparing rape to someone wearing blackface, you're only lying to yourself. As far as the comments in this thread concerning if it was a random woman, or a man's wife, and if in 1984, raping your wife was still legal, they are both still equally, and morally unforgivable acts, and neither comes close to some goofball wearing blackface. The anti Northam people started out making a good case, but it seems as though it is now wondering off into La La Land. This OP is a prime example