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question everything

(47,487 posts)
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 03:02 PM Jan 2019

About Gillibrand and Franken - a letter, not mine.

U.S. Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand of New York won’t get my vote in any Democratic presidential primary election (“Gillibrand says she is running in 2020,” Jan. 16). More than anyone else, she is responsible for the abrupt resignation of Sen. Al Franken following several allegations of inappropriate conduct toward women several years ago. Franken’s earlier conduct, when he was a comedian, even if proven, was minuscule, apologized for, and he was prepared to go before the Senate Ethics Committee for a fair hearing. The fusillade led by Gillibrand struck him hard, and he resigned. I submit that he would never have been forced to resign after a Senate hearing. His long record of USO volunteering, progressive stances and civic involvement were disregarded by Gillibrand.

Franken had literally become a “Giant of the Senate,” the title of his latest book, during his short tenure, and that trait had displayed itself in several areas, not the least of which was as a member of the Judiciary Committee.

There is no question that one is responsible for one’s conduct, and that the #MeToo movement has opened our eyes to abuses that have been overlooked for decades. You can’t outrun your past. Which is why, as I look over Gillibrand’s past, I wonder how she rationalizes her legal work defending Philip Morris in the 1990s when the damage of nicotine was first being brought to public attention, or her then-100 percent approval rating from the National Rifle Association, or her outspoken opposition to amnesty for undocumented immigrants, or her strenuous opposition to legalizing same-sex marriage. I’m sure she says that she has grown since then. She’s had the chance that she denied Franken, to explain away her shortcomings on those important social issues.

In her words, as she castigated Franken, “Sometimes you just have to do what’s right — even if it’s painful.” Exposing hypocrisy is painful, but attacking a peer as she did is a two-edged sword. She will not get my vote, even if it’s painful.

Alan Miller, Eagan

http://www.startribune.com/readers-write-kirsten-gillibrand-and-the-presidency-border-wall-liberty-and-inequality-technology-and-global-competitiveness/504453152/

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About Gillibrand and Franken - a letter, not mine. (Original Post) question everything Jan 2019 OP
... handmade34 Jan 2019 #1
I'm with you 100%. lark Jan 2019 #11
Bill the Cat Glaisne Jan 2019 #120
or mine. she should be ashamed of herself. trueblue2007 Jan 2019 #139
Don't worry. She'll NEVER become our party's nominee. NurseJackie Jan 2019 #18
I will never understand how that went down. Dont see ANYBODY winning in that one. Eliot Rosewater Jan 2019 #54
If I can't trust her judgement on something like this... NurseJackie Jan 2019 #59
It is so absurd it is almost comical. Al Franken, for those who know him and his family Eliot Rosewater Jan 2019 #64
He was railroaded and denied the investigation he sought. NurseJackie Jan 2019 #69
In all of the Senate, Franken was the one tRump* and his minions feared the most... Raster Jan 2019 #88
+1 mahina Jan 2019 #101
Thank you for this wonderful post in support of Al Franken, pazzyanne Jan 2019 #125
I think that he realized that he was losing his effectiveness with these bogus claims question everything Jan 2019 #133
I want to thank you as well maui902 Jan 2019 #153
Consider that confirmed. n/t DFW Jan 2019 #98
My feelings as well. Pepsidog Jan 2019 #19
... iluvtennis Jan 2019 #38
My feelings exactly wryter2000 Jan 2019 #47
Her past is ugly and what she did to Franken even uglier RVN VET71 Jan 2019 #61
Franken 2020 greblach Jan 2019 #99
I personally agree completely with that letter. Rene Jan 2019 #2
Yes, I could not have said it better question everything Jan 2019 #5
the loudest distortion was constant from the radio, limbaugh, certainot Jan 2019 #90
Agreed Timewas Jan 2019 #3
If you don't want to vote for Gillibrand in the primaries, don't do it. Squinch Jan 2019 #4
Sorry, not going to self-censor. DU is exactly the place to debate Democratic primary matters. Demit Jan 2019 #9
it is not the place to demonize women fighting against sexual harassment crazycatlady Jan 2019 #16
We only wanted that 'fan favorite' to have his day in court, so to speak, with the ethics panel. Gidney N Cloyd Jan 2019 #31
OMG, your user name wryter2000 Jan 2019 #48
+1 Gidney N Cloyd Jan 2019 #79
You really believe that the republicans Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #62
Well, you've got three questions there and I guess they'll never be answered. Gidney N Cloyd Jan 2019 #78
Were basic background checks on the accusers done? suegeo Jan 2019 #82
You raise a great point-- if KG was interested in justice, she could have shut down the railroading. Gidney N Cloyd Jan 2019 #85
They don't usually run background checks on victims Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #102
Victims of what? NotAPuppet Jan 2019 #138
Tweeden was a fake. Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #143
Ok, let's look at the other accusers! NotAPuppet Jan 2019 #147
OK Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #148
Post removed Post removed Jan 2019 #146
How many of those 7 women filed lawsuits against Al Franken? pazzyanne Jan 2019 #131
Why would they? Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #141
No evidence was found to support the allegations. pazzyanne Jan 2019 #142
What proof? Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #145
... pazzyanne Jan 2019 #150
I' take that as a no Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #151
You can take it anyway you want. pazzyanne Jan 2019 #152
Have a nice day too Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #154
Thank you! pazzyanne Jan 2019 #155
Weiner and Franken are not a good comparison Perseus Jan 2019 #32
I agree with everything you said PatSeg Jan 2019 #52
Forgot about that. This, alone, should disqualify her question everything Jan 2019 #72
She and over 30 other Senators Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #63
Franken wanted an investigation, which he did not receive. The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2019 #41
I won't defend any of the other men accused wryter2000 Jan 2019 #51
And LeAnn was buddies with PatSeg Jan 2019 #55
They are going to try FuzzyRabbit Jan 2019 #74
I don't doubt it PatSeg Jan 2019 #84
+ 1 loyalsister Jan 2019 #44
I disagree with your characterization that Gillibrand is being "demonized" here. Demit Jan 2019 #49
She might as well be Satan on this forum crazycatlady Jan 2019 #58
I am truly sorry that you were victimized while still so young. kag Jan 2019 #71
Gillibrand "focused on sexual assault in the military" - as did Franken, on defense contractors question everything Jan 2019 #73
I remember that. They showed the case on an HBO special. Caliman73 Jan 2019 #119
You just made the case for Franken having been a sacrificial lamb. Demit Jan 2019 #75
Let me ask about the Weiner hearings, the Conyers hearings, etc crazycatlady Jan 2019 #81
Senator Bob Packwood, a Republican, in the early 90s question everything Jan 2019 #87
thank you crazycatlady Jan 2019 #89
Notice that Louis CK is on the road and getting standing O's for doubling down. SleeplessinSoCal Jan 2019 #50
Respectfully, I think you're missing the point. kag Jan 2019 #57
Not so quickly Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #68
FYI, you are posting a hit piece by a right winger. Caliman73 Jan 2019 #121
Loud and consistent?? Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #128
Yes. That opened the floodgates Caliman73 Jan 2019 #129
An ethnics committee hearing Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #149
+1 Gidney N Cloyd Jan 2019 #80
Excellent details. Knee-jerk reactions do not serve any of us well. Cassidy Jan 2019 #97
Thank you for your post. The country certainly needs a public discussion of what is acceptable question everything Jan 2019 #135
Not all women are telling the truth. LakeArenal Jan 2019 #105
An act of self-aggrandizing betrayal is not simply a conflict. dchill Jan 2019 #24
Disscussion board! Get it??? Nt USALiberal Jan 2019 #30
I do get it, but there is no discussion in having 9 threads that say, "Rachel is having Gillibrand. Squinch Jan 2019 #45
I suspect this will sink her early on...nt 2naSalit Jan 2019 #6
K&R!!!!! Ernesto Jan 2019 #7
And there's no reason for KB to expect any favors from the Clinton people. nt oasis Jan 2019 #8
They should keep their pocketbooks closed and the endorsements non-existent. lark Jan 2019 #12
Gee, I was told NOBODY cares or remembers about Franken-- and Gillibrand's role in his departure hlthe2b Jan 2019 #10
Really? Interesting. SDJay Jan 2019 #91
I'm not excluding anyone even if there are things in their past (even recent past) I don't like. aikoaiko Jan 2019 #13
I agree rbnyc Jan 2019 #107
She's the only one that gave no due process to Al.. LakeArenal Jan 2019 #110
Good ananda Jan 2019 #14
please reconsider... handmade34 Jan 2019 #15
Well said Perseus Jan 2019 #34
Agree 100%. zentrum Jan 2019 #17
That's what I think too TexasBushwhacker Jan 2019 #65
Yup. Me too. zentrum Jan 2019 #77
Or, the GOPee/Putin were blackmailing Gillibrand for something? suegeo Jan 2019 #83
As were the rest of us. Robbed of Paul Wellstone's legacy twice. mahina Jan 2019 #103
mahina, thank you for remembering another great Minnesotan. pazzyanne Jan 2019 #134
Me too, from so far away. He still lifts my heart. mahina Jan 2019 #136
+100 MoonRiver Jan 2019 #20
EXCELLENT letter. LisaM Jan 2019 #21
Teen Vogue has some great articles, too. deurbano Jan 2019 #25
I just don't see anyone running now or anyone we know may run mastermind Jan 2019 #22
Keyword: progressive. Gidney N Cloyd Jan 2019 #28
Warren is another topic.. LakeArenal Jan 2019 #113
Given her history with Phillip Morris and the NRA rating, how is she a Democrat? CaptYossarian Jan 2019 #23
She seem chameleon-like SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #29
Bernie Sanders is a better "Democrat" than this Democrat. (n/t) thesquanderer Jan 2019 #93
?Bernie signed that Railroad letter too! LakeArenal Jan 2019 #114
I was talking about all the republican-ish positions KG has taken over the years thesquanderer Jan 2019 #118
She doesn't think fast enough on her feet to be president. Gidney N Cloyd Jan 2019 #26
Saw that this morning in my paper newspaper and was going to post it here The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2019 #27
Gillibrand pamdb Jan 2019 #33
I do hope that if she were to become the candidate for the Democratic party Perseus Jan 2019 #39
? Both Harris and Brown signed the Railroad letter... LakeArenal Jan 2019 #112
K & R Duppers Jan 2019 #35
I have asked this question before, maybe someone here can answer it Perseus Jan 2019 #36
So far it doesn't seem like he's ever expressed an interest in it. The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2019 #42
People often are best in specific posts and Adam Schiff is excellent as head of question everything Jan 2019 #76
I do agree. But maybe we NEED him to run LakeArenal Jan 2019 #115
His fan base has mentioned it, but he isn't talking. Caliman73 Jan 2019 #122
She will have my complete support if/when she comes out of the Convension with the nod. marble falls Jan 2019 #37
Exactly the way I feel. As they say, "She's dead to me." pdsimdars Jan 2019 #40
Wonderful Letter. Thanks for posting! bitterross Jan 2019 #43
Please let me once again. . . Hangdog Slim Jan 2019 #46
Welcome to DU wryter2000 Jan 2019 #53
Hypocrisy of Gillibrand marieo1 Jan 2019 #56
Spot on analysis. SergeStorms Jan 2019 #60
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Butterflylady Jan 2019 #66
The one thing I knew for sure when that all happened. JNelson6563 Jan 2019 #67
There were two letters Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #70
It was not Chuck Schumer that was the deciding factor in Al's decision to resign DFW Jan 2019 #111
Ok Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #123
I'm not interested in permanently obsessing over this DFW Jan 2019 #130
Thank you for your clear analysis question everything Jan 2019 #137
There was a reason he was slow to react DFW Jan 2019 #140
I believe that Gillibrand used Franken for her personal political purposes. Zen Democrat Jan 2019 #86
she wont get far....you can tell she's fake mentalslavery Jan 2019 #92
I'll just put this here cannabis_flower Jan 2019 #94
As a former LittleGirl Jan 2019 #95
The Franken thing stuck in my craw a little bit padah513 Jan 2019 #96
Nor mine. Her spectacular flameout on. Rachel Maddow (1st interview. Since mahina Jan 2019 #100
It was ALL about HER career. Get rid of a more popular candidate;look good & (feel good)doing it. flying_wahini Jan 2019 #104
How do you know that? Trumpocalypse Jan 2019 #106
Me too. firstwife Jan 2019 #108
While I am really sorry about the loss of Franken, who Perrenial Voter Jan 2019 #109
If this was political jiu-jitsu to calibrate the Democratic Party to the #MeToo movement . . . MrModerate Jan 2019 #117
Agree with your second paragraph. LakeArenal Jan 2019 #126
She's dead to me. n/r MrModerate Jan 2019 #116
+1000 Power 2 the People Jan 2019 #124
Gillibrand is a small ripple in the pond, there are far more important things to attend to. NoMoreRepugs Jan 2019 #127
I will vote for Gillibrand. Collimator Jan 2019 #132
Good letter to the editor cp Jan 2019 #144

handmade34

(22,756 posts)
1. ...
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 03:08 PM
Jan 2019

She will not get my vote in the primaries... if she becomes the candidate (not likely, but if) I will vote for her and do whatever work it takes to get a Democrat elected!!

lark

(23,105 posts)
11. I'm with you 100%.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 03:47 PM
Jan 2019

I'd vote for my sick old cat if he was the general election nominee with a D, so I'd vote for her, holding my nose every minute of the way.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,112 posts)
54. I will never understand how that went down. Dont see ANYBODY winning in that one.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:03 PM
Jan 2019

Al Franken NEVER inappropriately touched ANYONE

Tweeden OF COURSE lied about tongue down her throat, duh and the WORST other allegation was normal behavour in broad daylight in public situations.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
59. If I can't trust her judgement on something like this...
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:15 PM
Jan 2019

... I wouldn't ever be able to trust that the wisest decision had been made for even MORE difficult moments. When it comes to the person our party chooses to nominate, we can do better. This is a perfectly reasonable thing to aspire to.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,112 posts)
64. It is so absurd it is almost comical. Al Franken, for those who know him and his family
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:22 PM
Jan 2019

and I know someone who sort of does, is the squeakiest clean of the clean.

And he is known for being very friendly IN PUBLIC with everyone and is guilty of APPROPRIATE hugs.

He is an angel compared to any republican, especially the vile pile of garbage in the WH.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
69. He was railroaded and denied the investigation he sought.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:31 PM
Jan 2019

He was also smart enough to know that fighting (rightly to) for his reputation would also split the party and cause great damage. The ill conceived intra-party attacks against him had already begun... and the "ringleader" had caused too much damage already.

Franken knew this and he was MORE concerned for the future and strength of the party than he was for himself. He sacrificed himself for the sake of the party and to avoid a prolonged battle with those who had already boxed themselves in... and who were unable to do the right thing, or the fair thing.

Franken is, and will always be, a HERO to me. I admire him for the decisions he made and for the things he chose not to do (although he had every right to do) in defending his office, his integrity, and his reputation.

I will never forgive or trust the ringleader/s... and I'll always have doubts and resentment for the bandwagon-hoppers who neglected to think things through clearly and fairly. He was denied the due process he sought. He was railroaded. It was unfair. It was unjust. It was stupid.

As a party we are diminished because of it.

God Bless Al Franken! We need him now more than ever!! It's our great loss not to have him.

Raster

(20,998 posts)
88. In all of the Senate, Franken was the one tRump* and his minions feared the most...
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 05:42 AM
Jan 2019

...with his down-home demeanor and folksy, approachable attitude and a cutting, cunning wit, he was the perfect public foil to the reich-wing insanity...

Senator Franken was rat-fucked by Roger "lying sack of shit" Stone* and then railroaded by the Dems in the Senate.

pazzyanne

(6,556 posts)
125. Thank you for this wonderful post in support of Al Franken,
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:01 PM
Jan 2019

from this Minnesotan. I am typing this thank you with tears in my eyes. Al is and will continue to be a hero for me as well. Have you noticed all the lawsuits from his accusers? No, neither have I. It's been pretty quiet on that front. I am hoping that he will run for office in the future. We need people like him in our government!

question everything

(47,487 posts)
133. I think that he realized that he was losing his effectiveness with these bogus claims
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:26 PM
Jan 2019

coming every day. The drip drip drip method that we've seen with Hillary's emails before the elections.

I think that the would have chosen to resign on his own but wanted to wait for the ethics committee.

Gillibrand, and Harris, and Warren and the rest of them should not have jumped to push him. (I am mentioned the names of wannabe candidates).


maui902

(108 posts)
153. I want to thank you as well
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 08:39 PM
Jan 2019

Sometimes others on DU capture exactly what I'm thinking before I have the chance to post. Your post did exactly that. I've contacted my representatives in Arizona--where I live--many times, but the one and only time I reached out to an elected member of Congress was to call Senator Franken's office to beg him to stay. Given the climate at the time, I understand why he chose to resign, but it pained me all the more that one of our best and brightest resigned out of principle and never had the chance to effectively defend himself. Still hoping he chooses some role as a public servant in the future. We need his voice and understanding.

wryter2000

(46,051 posts)
47. My feelings exactly
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:50 PM
Jan 2019

But then, even if it weren't for how she went after Franken, she still isn't my favorite of the candidates we have so far.

RVN VET71

(2,692 posts)
61. Her past is ugly and what she did to Franken even uglier
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:16 PM
Jan 2019

If the Dems give her the nomination, I'll lose my already shaky faith in the party. But I will hold my nose and vote for her and hope for the future. Better to have a temporizing and overly ambitious president of dubious principles than any -- I repeat ANY -- member of the Corporate Fascist party

greblach

(257 posts)
99. Franken 2020
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 11:45 AM
Jan 2019

I agree with this post... gonna have to come up with a whopper of a clothes pin if she does happen to get the nomination....

Rene

(1,183 posts)
2. I personally agree completely with that letter.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 03:09 PM
Jan 2019

Gillebrand...sit down..you'll never get nominated, let alone elected.

question everything

(47,487 posts)
5. Yes, I could not have said it better
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 03:18 PM
Jan 2019

And her announcement - giggling like a teen girl, holding hands of a late night comedian... how can she expect any respect? Does she want to out-Trump by not being presidential?

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
90. the loudest distortion was constant from the radio, limbaugh,
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 10:14 AM
Jan 2019

the way it went after christine blasey ford.

she was way too sensitive and responsive to a few hundred radio blowhards

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
4. If you don't want to vote for Gillibrand in the primaries, don't do it.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 03:17 PM
Jan 2019

We will have plenty of fabulous candidates to choose from. But, just for now, there is no reason we need to air or publicly dwell on conflicts within the Democratic party.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
9. Sorry, not going to self-censor. DU is exactly the place to debate Democratic primary matters.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 03:35 PM
Jan 2019

It's intra-party discussion. I don't agree that we should somehow be afraid of it.

crazycatlady

(4,492 posts)
16. it is not the place to demonize women fighting against sexual harassment
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 04:39 PM
Jan 2019

Even if the man is a fan favorite. I don't care if he has a D or an R next to his name. If this were Mitch McConnell, I would want the same thing to happen.

Anthony Weiner was a great congressman. He gave one of the most heartfelt and passionate floor speeches ever when it came to 9/11 first responders. He was good at his job. However, he tweeted his dick. It shows a lack of judgment on his part and a disrespect for 50% of the population.

For decades, women have been afraid to speak up about sexual harassment. When the perpetrator is a fan favorite on here, he does not get admonished, but instead the colleague who spoke up against him does as well as his victims.

Gidney N Cloyd

(19,841 posts)
31. We only wanted that 'fan favorite' to have his day in court, so to speak, with the ethics panel.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:20 PM
Jan 2019

If Gillibrand were interested in justice then that's what she would have called for as well.
I believe Franken not only would have been exonerated but it may have revealed a conspiracy against him from the likes of Roger Stone.

 

Trumpocalypse

(6,143 posts)
62. You really believe that the republicans
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:19 PM
Jan 2019

on the ethics committee would have given Franken a fair hearing? They would have turned it into a circus to humiliate Franken and paint any Dem who defended him as a hypocrite.

Plus an ethics committee hearing is not a finding of guilt or innocence. It is just a determination if congressional ethics rules had been violated.

And were all 7 women who came forward part of Stone's conspiracy? Is there any evidence to support that?

suegeo

(2,573 posts)
82. Were basic background checks on the accusers done?
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 09:10 PM
Jan 2019

I live and vote in Minnesota. I ask this question a lot at DFL functions. Representatives never get back to me with an answer.

If Conducted, did the background checks turn up anything corrupt, like , for example, did Tweeden's buddy Don Jr allow her to live rent free in a Trump property condo somewhere? Did she get a Trump Org payoff from Michael Cohn to lie/spill the beans, like the opposite of Stormy Daniels who they wanted to shut up? Shit, even a box of Trump steaks? Some ugly sweatshop dresses under the Ivanka label?

Did any of the other accusers have bank accounts in Cyprus filled with rubles? Paid cash under the table?

Republicans and Roger Stone are well practiced at rat fucking. Looks like K.G. took the bait, along with others. And what was the fucking rush?

Given the still on going Putin interference in our democracy, smart Democrats would have done extensive background checks, the kind that take time to do right and thoroughly. An investigation, which Franken called for, well who knows what that might have turned up.

Given the haste to drum my senator out, I wondered at the time, "what's the rush, Ms. junior senator from New York?" Did she do something that she was being blackmailed for ? Shut it down,Kirsten, or else?I

Did some laundered Russian blood money make its way through the NRA to Gillibrand?

I have so many...questions.

And I am still pissed my vote was stolen from me

Gidney N Cloyd

(19,841 posts)
85. You raise a great point-- if KG was interested in justice, she could have shut down the railroading.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 10:36 PM
Jan 2019

She built a reputation as a leader in sexual harassment issues and if she said "wait a minute, let's see what's really going on here" it would have carried a great deal of weight and authority that others didn't have.

 

Trumpocalypse

(6,143 posts)
102. They don't usually run background checks on victims
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:03 PM
Jan 2019

unless there is evidence to do so.

Is there any evidence of any of what you're suggesting?

NotAPuppet

(326 posts)
138. Victims of what?
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 03:13 PM
Jan 2019

A scripted kiss during a public rehearsal? None of the stories made any sense.

I support victims of sexual assault, but I will never support fake accusers who are friends with Stone and Hannity. In this case, I would definitely like to know more about the background of the women who came forward.

 

Trumpocalypse

(6,143 posts)
143. Tweeden was a fake.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 03:43 PM
Jan 2019

No argument three. But there were seven other women. Is there any evidence which shows all other 7 were lying too?

NotAPuppet

(326 posts)
147. Ok, let's look at the other accusers!
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 05:02 PM
Jan 2019

Accuser # 2 said that Franken “put his hand full-fledged on my rear… It was wrapped tightly around my butt cheek” while her husband was taking a picture.

Then 2 unnamed women made statements. One alleged that Franken touched her behind while they were taking a picure together, the other woman alleged that Franken suggested to meet her in the (public) bathroom during a convention.

Accuser # 5 states that Franken grabbed her breast while they were taking a picture together.

Then we heard from 2 more unnamed women who alleged that Franken loses them on the mouth.

There is not one convincing allegation against Franken, and 4 out of 7 allegations were made by unknown accusers. And yes, I would like for someone to investigate the motives of the women who made serious allegations against Franken.





 

Trumpocalypse

(6,143 posts)
148. OK
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 05:31 PM
Jan 2019

Read this article: http://time.com/5042931/al-franken-accusers/

One is an Army veteran. I'm not prepared to call her, or any of the other 6 women, a liar without some evidence.

A big part of the Me Too movement is that women deserve to be believed. That can't be a convenient principle that we only apply to others and not our friends. So there are 7 women, other than Tweeden, who deserve respect until it can be proven they were lying.

I'm not saying that Franken is guilty or a bad person. Even if every allegation were true the worst anyone can say is that he was rude. That is nothing compared to people like Cosby or Weinstein. The problem was the timing. Had these allegations had not come out during the height of the Me Too movement, Franken would have likely survived. In the end, he got screwed by circumstance.

Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #102)

pazzyanne

(6,556 posts)
131. How many of those 7 women filed lawsuits against Al Franken?
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:12 PM
Jan 2019

The minute he resign nothing happened. Nothing! No further accusers, no legal actions, no evidence was made available, etc. The republicans wanted him gone, and they succeeded. Minnesota was in the Republican's sights in the midterm elections as well. The same playbook was used against Keith Ellison. Days before the primary out came the accusations. Most Minnesotans did not buy in this time and voted for him to see how the allegations played out. Two investigation found nothing. The playbook did not work this time, and Minnesota stayed blue. We need to be aware that there is a Republican playbook out there, and we have to guard against falling for it.

 

Trumpocalypse

(6,143 posts)
141. Why would they?
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 03:36 PM
Jan 2019

I don’t think any said that he had done anything criminal.

Leanne Tweeden was a right wing plant that is obvious. However there were seven other women. Is there any evidence that shows all of them were lying?

pazzyanne

(6,556 posts)
142. No evidence was found to support the allegations.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 03:40 PM
Jan 2019

In fact, poof! All of those allegations magically disappeared.

 

Perseus

(4,341 posts)
32. Weiner and Franken are not a good comparison
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:26 PM
Jan 2019

Franken has been a voice for women, what Gillebran did was wrong and it showed poor judgement on her part, one wants a president who can sit down and rationalize his/her decisions and not fly to a decision because that is what their gut tells them. We now have two bad experiences with people who make decisions from their guts, GW and the orange buffoon.

By the way, I am not comparing Gillibran to those two, she is definitely a smart woman, but looking at her history she seems to be someone who looks for opportunities and may not adhere, by convenience, to her principles much.

This is my take on her, and I could be wrong, and I don't know if she ever was part of the republican party, but her ideologies seem to have been more to the right than to the left, according to her she has changed her views and last night she gave a performance at Rachel Maddow, who by the way let her off the hook never asking about Franken, and explained what made her change. I say a performance because I feel she over did it, she put drama in her huge speech (voice changes, facial drama, etc.) and maybe I am not being fair to her, but it looked very fake to me.

Anyway, I feel she did a lot of damage to the Democratic party by going after Franken. Did she see Franken as a threat for a presidential run? I don't know, but I do know that I want a president who will take his/her time making decisions and not go so readily into panic mode.

PatSeg

(47,501 posts)
52. I agree with everything you said
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:00 PM
Jan 2019

It sure seemed like she changed her views on an awful lot of stuff. I accept that people can and do evolve on some issues, but in her case, it looked like a total personality transplant. Gillibrand the congresswoman looked more like a republican. I think she has been running for president for a long time and calling for Franken's resignation was probably part of it.

I also agree that it was a performance and it was over the top, she was probably expecting a lot of push back on her many flip-flops. I hate to tell her, but this is only the beginning. There will be more scrutiny and questions in the coming months and I didn't find her "performance" very convincing.

Oh and remember a year ago when she said Bill Clinton should have resigned the presidency over the Lewinsky scandal? Philippe Reines, a former aide to Hillary Clinton lashed out at Gillibrand on Twitter:

“Ken Starr spent $70 million on a consensual blowjob. Senate voted to keep [President Clinton]. But not enough for you @SenGillibrand? Over 20 yrs you took the Clintons’ endorsements, money, and seat. Hypocrite. Interesting strategy for 2020 primaries. Best of luck."

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/17/kirsten-gillibrand-bill-clinton-democrats-247427

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
41. Franken wanted an investigation, which he did not receive.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:37 PM
Jan 2019

Generally speaking, people who are accused of something and who request an investigation of it are pretty sure they'll be exonerated. What if he'd been given the investigation he wanted and it turned out that none of the claims were true? We know LeAnn Tweeden was a pal of Sean Hannity and Roger Stone and she never complained about the alleged harassment until Franken started going after Jeff Sessions, and the other accusers were anonymous and their claims were never tested at all. Even men should be allowed the chance to respond to their accusers. If an investigation had confirmed the claims, fine; but he was railroaded out of the Senate without a fair chance to defend himself. Gillibrand used the incident and the momentum from the MeToo movement to further her own ambitions.

wryter2000

(46,051 posts)
51. I won't defend any of the other men accused
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:57 PM
Jan 2019

But the case against Franken was ridiculous. One stupid picture, for which he apologized and the woman accepted his apology. The rest of the accusations were ridiculous. Abusers don't do it in front of cameras with the victim's husband standing nearby. Virtually all of the women he worked with at SNL and all the women who worked on his staff stood up for him.

There should have been an investigation. If he'd been guilty, all the evidence would have come out. I believe he was innocent, and he was denied a chance to be exonerated. Now, we're missing his very powerful voice in the Senate. Bear in mind, without him, Sessions would never have recused himself from overseeing the Mueller investigation.

PatSeg

(47,501 posts)
55. And LeAnn was buddies with
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:04 PM
Jan 2019

Don Trump Jr. as well. The only thing that Franken admitted to was the inappropriate photo and he understandably apologized for it. Everything else just reeked of a right-wing, Roger Stone style setup.

If people like Stone can do this to Franken, they can do it to other prominent Democrats as well.

FuzzyRabbit

(1,967 posts)
74. They are going to try
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 07:12 PM
Jan 2019
If people like Stone can do this to Franken, they can do it to other prominent Democrats as well.

They are going to try, and with Russia's help as well.

PatSeg

(47,501 posts)
84. I don't doubt it
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 09:50 PM
Jan 2019

and I'm sure they snickered when prominent Democrats threw Franken under the bus. We really need to be smarter than that.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
49. I disagree with your characterization that Gillibrand is being "demonized" here.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:52 PM
Jan 2019

She made a political calculation and she is being judged on it now. That's perfectly fair, in my book.

Many of us, including women, feel that the punishment she lobbied her colleagues hard for— hounding Franken out of the Senate—didn't fit the crime.

You use the term "fan favorite," as if politics is a game show, with Gillibrand on the celebrity panel of judges. I think politics is serious business, and I think she made a serious political miscalculation. There will be other things she's judged on in her quest to be president, but her instincts on how the Franken matter should have been handled, or could have been handled, will rightfully be part of the mix.

crazycatlady

(4,492 posts)
58. She might as well be Satan on this forum
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:12 PM
Jan 2019

I've never seen so much hatred for a Democrat on a Democratic forum. I feel so unpopular here just because I like her and the work she's accomplished. WHen she was appointed to the senate, she focused on sexual assault in the military.

I'm also speaking as someone who has had my character assaulted when I was sexually assaulted in middle school (the perp was popular and it turned into he said she said with his word trumping mine. He didn't even get a slap on the wrist).

A previous poster here was tying a victim to Sean Hannity-- whether that is true or not, her allegations need to stand on their own, not based on her ties to someone else. This is a textbook example of why some women don't want to give their names when speaking about sexual assault.

This was also around the time of the Alabama election, where a pedophile almost became a senator. I think had Al Franken remained in the senate, Doug Jones would have lost the election because there was no consistency. What ousting AF did was show Alabama (and the country) of the party's zero tolerance policy for sexual assault. The result was a Democrat being elected in ALABAMA of all places (something I didn't think I'd see in my lifetime-- and I'm a generation younger than most of this forum).

There were also over 30 senators calling for his resignation, but the focus here is on just one.

kag

(4,079 posts)
71. I am truly sorry that you were victimized while still so young.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:38 PM
Jan 2019

Sexual harassment/abuse is crushing and painful for anyone, but for one so young it can be devastating.

And I would never take sides against a victim of abuse in favor of her assailant. True sexual predators have no place in our government.

I don't believe anyone here means to attack you for supporting Senator Gillibrand. She has indeed done important work for women, especially military women, while in the senate. I just believe, like many others here, that her attack on Senator Franken (and yes there were others, but she was first and most vocal) was premature and unfounded, and cost us an effective, passionate, and honorable senator.

We can disagree without being nasty to one another, something that sets us apart from the GOP these days.

question everything

(47,487 posts)
73. Gillibrand "focused on sexual assault in the military" - as did Franken, on defense contractors
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 07:10 PM
Jan 2019

On Tuesday night, the Minnesota Democrat got his first piece of legislation passed by the United States Senate via roll call vote. The amendment stopped federal funding for those defense contractors who used mandatory arbitration clauses to deny victims of assault the right to bring their case to court. It passed by a 68-30 margin with nine Republicans joining each voting Democrat.

“The story came to my attention of Jamie Leigh Jones who, when she was 19, went to Iraq to work for [defense contractor] KBR and she was put in the barracks with 400 men and was sexually harassed,” Franken told the Huffington Post in a brief interview shortly after the vote. “She complained. But they didn’t do anything about it. She was drugged and gang raped and they locked her up in a shipping container. She tried to sue KBR and they said you have a mandatory arbitration clause in your contract. She tried to fight back and said this is ridiculous. She took it to court and they have been fighting her for three years.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/07/franken-gets-first-amendm_n_312399.html


Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
119. I remember that. They showed the case on an HBO special.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 01:35 PM
Jan 2019

He would not let Jones' case go even after hitting roadblock after roadblock. I do not want to in anyway dismiss or disparage the experiences of people who have been sexually abused. We may never really know what happened with Al Franken and the women who alleged that he touched them in appropriately. I do remember however, how passionately he fought for justice for Jones and other victims of sexual abuse. Gillibrand isn't the only Senator who was leading the fight against sexual assault.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
75. You just made the case for Franken having been a sacrificial lamb.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 07:20 PM
Jan 2019

Deliberately sacrificed for show.

I'm afraid I don't agree that zero tolerance policies are an unalloyed good. They result in things like six-year-olds being expelled because they brought a penknife to school. They result in cruelly long prison sentences for people caught with marijuana. Trump's zero tolerance policy is separating immigrant children from their families right now. Zero tolerance policies are over broad and unduly punitive. I think they destroy far more than they accomplish.

Regarding those other senators: the focus is on Gillibrand and not them because sexual assault was her flagship issue, and she made sure Franken's actions—or actually, the actions he was accused of—fit nicely into it. I think you'd be hard put to name one senator out of those 30 who would have led the charge to ride Al Franken out of the Senate other than Kirsten Gillibrand.

crazycatlady

(4,492 posts)
81. Let me ask about the Weiner hearings, the Conyers hearings, etc
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 09:00 PM
Jan 2019

As far as I'm aware (and correct me if I'm wrong), most people accused of sexual misconduct do not have hearings. This seems like it would have been an unprecedented move.

Can you name one other politician accused of sexual misconduct that had hearings related to it in their (legislative) body (obviously this excludes confirmation hearings a la Brett Kavanaugh)? (House, Senate, State House).

And FWIW #metoo did take down an anti-Trumper who had the power to press charges against Trump and his family (and was preparing evidence). I mourned the loss, but he's since been replaced by a fierce woman of color who's going to come through. (NY AG Eric Schnidermann)

question everything

(47,487 posts)
87. Senator Bob Packwood, a Republican, in the early 90s
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 01:57 AM
Jan 2019

The Ethics Committee's indictment, running to ten-volumes and 10,145 pages, much of it from Packwood's own writings, according to a report in The New York Times, detailed the sexual misconduct, obstruction of justice, and ethics charges being made against him.[37] The chairman of the Ethics Committee, Republican senator Mitch McConnell, referred to Packwood's "habitual pattern of aggressive, blatantly sexual advances, mostly directed at members of his own staff or others whose livelihoods were connected in some way to his power and authority as a Senator" and said Packwood's behaviour included "deliberately altering and destroying relevant portions of his diary" which Packwood himself had written in the diary were "very incriminating information"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Packwood

kag

(4,079 posts)
57. Respectfully, I think you're missing the point.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:12 PM
Jan 2019

I was perfectly satisfied with the punishment imposed on Anthony Weiner. Yes, he was an excellent congressperson, but he also showed very poor judgment, and very little respect for women...many times. I was also satisfied with the resignation of John Conyers, Jr. who also behaved badly, and then lied about it. It was tough to lose Conyers, who had been chair of the House Judiciary Committee, but it was just. Both of these men, and several others, had credible allegations made about sexual harassment and persuasive stories about bad behavior.

Franken was/is not just a "fan favorite". He was an effective, eloquent, smart, and passionate member of the Senate. But when allegations began coming out about him they were of a vastly different quality than those about other famous men.

First of all, his first and loudest "victim" is well-known Republican talk-show host and political operative Leeann Tweeden. Her cries of "harassment" included the famous photo, and other stories that were quickly contradicted by witnesses.

The photo was alarming until put into context, which she never did. From others we learned that she was "in on" the joke, pretending to be asleep. Also, the USO tour was famously bawdy, and video quickly arose of her behaving much more suggestively than Franken had in the photo. Other accusations made against Franken were either anonymous or clearly misunderstandings (e.g. he touched a woman's bare waist when putting his arm around her for a photo). None came anywhere near the level of Weiner's transgressions. He never sent dick pix, he was not accused of unwanted advances, and he certainly never forced himself on a woman without consent.

The calls for his resignation, however, came fast, loud, and with no investigation, and from no one faster and louder than Senator Gillibrand. She and others railroaded him out of the senate without so much as an acknowledgement of his heartfelt apology or even time to allow the ethics committee to take a peek at the allegations.

So when you say, "When the perpetrator is a fan favorite on here, he does not get admonished, but instead the colleague who spoke up against him does as well as his victims," I don't know what you're talking about.

Leeann Tweeden was not afraid to speak up, in fact she clearly enjoyed the attention. Also, she was not a "victim." Franken had no "victims." Tweeden was lying, and others were either also lying or had misunderstood an innocent action. All of these women, however, received an expressive and sincere apology from Franken for any discomfort he may have caused them. Also, Franken welcomed, but never received, an investigation into the accusations.

Still, Gillibrand quickly called for his resignation (a move even Republicans weren't pushing for yet), ignoring all of the facts, lumping Franken in with attempted rapists and misogynistic men, and ridding herself of what I can only assume she she considered to be tough competition for leadership roles in the Democratic caucus in the senate.

Al Franken is one of the most honorable men to ever serve in the senate. I will hold my nose and vote for Senator Gillibrand if I have to, but I would vastly prefer to be voting for Al Franken.

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
121. FYI, you are posting a hit piece by a right winger.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 01:47 PM
Jan 2019
Siraj Hashmi is a commentary video editor and writer for the Washington Examiner. He previously served as assisting editor for Red Alert Politics and was an associate producer at SiriusXM Radio.

I do agree that Gillibrand was not the first to call for Franken to resign. That was Schumer. She did become very loud and consistent with the calls however.
 

Trumpocalypse

(6,143 posts)
128. Loud and consistent??
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:01 PM
Jan 2019

She made a Facebook post and had a press conference with several other Senators.

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
129. Yes. That opened the floodgates
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:08 PM
Jan 2019

Until she came out, the ethics hearing was a viable reality. I notice you didn't respond to pointing out that you were using right wing sources to defend your position.

 

Trumpocalypse

(6,143 posts)
149. An ethnics committee hearing
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 05:40 PM
Jan 2019

is not what you think. It is not an investigation like the Mueller probe. Nor is it a determination of guilt or innocence. It is more of a political function. The republicans on that committee would have made it a circus to humiliate Franken.

As far as the source, was there anything factually incorrect in the article posted. If there is, please point it out.

Cassidy

(202 posts)
97. Excellent details. Knee-jerk reactions do not serve any of us well.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 11:40 AM
Jan 2019

I saw a video of Leeann Tweeden at the USO tour, it must have been linked on DU. Among other bawdy behaviors, I remember her onstage rubbing her backside against a singer who looked annoyed and embarrassed. I also remember that Leeann Tweeden did not want an investigation. To my mind, those things do not support her claims of victimization by Franken.

I am female and worked in male dominated professions for much of my adult life. I have experienced harassment and assault. I know that people react differently to these crimes, but everything I read and saw of her just seemed not to support her allegations against Franken. Yes, the photo of him pretending to touch her breasts was in poor taste, was he even actually touching her? It didn't look like it to me. It looked like he was pretending to for the photo.

All of the other allegations apparently happened at state fairs and other public places. Although I have never met him, Franken always seemed like a hugging, personable person. I remember the one interview of another person who made allegations, probably also linked on DU. This person mentioned that she had gained a lot of weight recently and was embarrassed when he squeezed her waist when they were taking the photo she had requested. That doesn't count as assault in my book.

This country very much needs a public discussion of what is and is not acceptable as far as behavior between men and women. An actual investigation of the allegations against Senator Franken would have helped the country move forward, although I am sure it would have been brutal for his family. I have never been a hugger, but I am well aware that there are people for whom such behavior is natural and not meant to intimidate or offend. I have no doubt that in the end, Franken would have been vindicated of all allegations.

No way in hell will I ever work for or vote for Gillibrand in any campaign. Fortunately, we will have plenty of other excellent candidates and I won't have to.

question everything

(47,487 posts)
135. Thank you for your post. The country certainly needs a public discussion of what is acceptable
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:48 PM
Jan 2019

And, yes, the MeToo moved too much to condemn what many of us used to engage in harmless flirt in the workplace. Though I admit that in too many cases what one side saw as a harmless flirt the other saw as an offense. By both genders, really.


LakeArenal

(28,820 posts)
105. Not all women are telling the truth.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:18 PM
Jan 2019

If the accuser is close to Roger Stone and is seen in a few pictures after Al’s fake boobie grab rubbing her ass on a man, the other accusers are anonymous or smiling politely in a picture where Al is supposedly sexually abusing her; yea, send it to an investigation.

dchill

(38,505 posts)
24. An act of self-aggrandizing betrayal is not simply a conflict.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:08 PM
Jan 2019

Strictly speaking.

I will vote for the Democratic nominee.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
45. I do get it, but there is no discussion in having 9 threads that say, "Rachel is having Gillibrand.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:44 PM
Jan 2019

I won't watch it."

OK, don't. Enjoy. But that's not discussion, and repeating it over and over doesn't help the party.

lark

(23,105 posts)
12. They should keep their pocketbooks closed and the endorsements non-existent.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 03:48 PM
Jan 2019

She's a phony backstabber.

hlthe2b

(102,294 posts)
10. Gee, I was told NOBODY cares or remembers about Franken-- and Gillibrand's role in his departure
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 03:44 PM
Jan 2019

I'm guessing this might be the first of many such editorials.

SDJay

(1,089 posts)
91. Really? Interesting.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 10:19 AM
Jan 2019

That's the first thing I think about with regards to her, along with her back-stabbing of the Clintons when that seemed politically expedient for her.

I don't trust her at all. She's shown that she'll eat her own, she'll bite the hand the feeds... add other cliches.

As others have said, I'll vote for her if she's the nominee of course, but I don't think people will overlook what she really seems to be about when voting in the primaries. She's really about herself.

aikoaiko

(34,172 posts)
13. I'm not excluding anyone even if there are things in their past (even recent past) I don't like.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 04:02 PM
Jan 2019

I'm not fond of Gillibrand (flip-flopping on guns and her leadership role in ousting Franken), but I'd like to give her more of a chance to present herself as a national candidate.

She certainly isn't the only one who has changed on guns or called for Franken to resign.

rbnyc

(17,045 posts)
107. I agree
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:22 PM
Jan 2019

I look forward to a robust primary season where we welcome many voices, and focus on issues and the direction of the party.

LakeArenal

(28,820 posts)
110. She's the only one that gave no due process to Al..
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:28 PM
Jan 2019

Then went on talk shows afterward demanding due process for women who claim abuse.

To me she’s a political opportunist, who stabbed Clintons in the back and railroaded Franken.

That shows me poor judgement and a lack of character.

handmade34

(22,756 posts)
15. please reconsider...
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 04:20 PM
Jan 2019

we must elect Democrats... if she becomes the candidate... we can't make any mistakes in 2020... even if it is a person we don't personally care for... the D means everything...

in 2010 many people here were discouraged with Obama and voiced that... my response always was... vote Democratic or we get John Boehner... and we did and that was the beginning of Obama's inability to get accomplished all that he would have been capable of with a Democratic House

 

Perseus

(4,341 posts)
34. Well said
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:28 PM
Jan 2019

I don't like her either, but if she becomes the nominee she has my vote. I am just hoping that it is not her.

zentrum

(9,865 posts)
17. Agree 100%.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 04:54 PM
Jan 2019

She took him down because she saw him as the main threat to her Presidential amibitions. Fed up with that kind of opportunism.

TexasBushwhacker

(20,202 posts)
65. That's what I think too
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:23 PM
Jan 2019

She saw him as a rival and took the opportunity to eliminate him. I won't vote for her in the primary, and I will hold my nose and carry a barf bag if I have to vote for her in the GE.

suegeo

(2,573 posts)
83. Or, the GOPee/Putin were blackmailing Gillibrand for something?
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 09:41 PM
Jan 2019

So, shut it down Kirsten, or we'll expose the laundered Russian blood money you got from the NRA? Some other embarrassing money passing through her hands?

speculation is all this farmer's daughter can do. Because I was never given any facts, unearthed by a proper investigation, to consider. I just know from past experience, that Republicans are dirty filthy mobbed up corrupt goons.

What was the fucking rush? What might a thorough investigation turned up? Maybe a Roger Stone dirty operation? An investigation that might have become a teaching moment for future generations along the lines of: Republicans are filthy and you should never ever underestimate how low they will stoop.

And the alleged crime of harassment (the accusations never rose to the level of assault or aggravated assult) does not rise to the level of punishment that was meted out.

And Franken is INNOCENT. And Minnesotans were robbed.

pazzyanne

(6,556 posts)
134. mahina, thank you for remembering another great Minnesotan.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:38 PM
Jan 2019

I knew Paul and Sheila well and campaigned for him. Their deaths in that plane crash just days before the election devastated me.

mahina

(17,669 posts)
136. Me too, from so far away. He still lifts my heart.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:49 PM
Jan 2019

What a leader. His love for people and fairness is still a light. It’s the best of us.

Aloha friend

LisaM

(27,813 posts)
21. EXCELLENT letter.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 04:57 PM
Jan 2019

Just spot on. It clarifies a lot of things.

Before the Franken kerfuffle, there was an article about Kirsten Gillibrand in Vogue, which I read (Vogue does great articles, FYI), and something about her just rubbed me the wrong way. I think it was that she seems like a self-appointed arbiter of justice, and that she completely lacks nuance. I don't want a Democratic candidate who lacks nuance.

 

mastermind

(229 posts)
22. I just don't see anyone running now or anyone we know may run
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:04 PM
Jan 2019

that could beat Senator Warren in the primary. With that said, we should be open to any progressive who chooses to run, go through the process and if I understand that process, can also make a few bucks out of it. Some politicians have made a fortune just running for office.

LakeArenal

(28,820 posts)
113. Warren is another topic..
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:35 PM
Jan 2019

But I see PLENTY of folks who can beat Warren in a primary. But that is off topic.

CaptYossarian

(6,448 posts)
23. Given her history with Phillip Morris and the NRA rating, how is she a Democrat?
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:05 PM
Jan 2019

I had the same feeling about McCaskill, Manchin, and Bill Nelson. They voted the wrong way many times because they were from red states, but she's from New York. Maybe she needs a primary challenger.

 

SoFlaDem

(98 posts)
29. She seem chameleon-like
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:12 PM
Jan 2019

Not solidly anything other than what she thinks will make her popular at the moment. Not voting for her for many more reasons than just her Frankin related behavior.

thesquanderer

(11,990 posts)
118. I was talking about all the republican-ish positions KG has taken over the years
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 01:22 PM
Jan 2019

i.e. from the OP "her legal work defending Philip Morris...or her then-100 percent approval rating from the National Rifle Association, or her outspoken opposition to amnesty for undocumented immigrants, or her strenuous opposition to legalizing same-sex marriage. "

Gidney N Cloyd

(19,841 posts)
26. She doesn't think fast enough on her feet to be president.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:11 PM
Jan 2019

Regardless her opinion on the Franken accusations, her handling of it was clumsy and clueless.

pamdb

(1,332 posts)
33. Gillibrand
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:27 PM
Jan 2019


I completely agree. Hope she enjoyed her little tantrum to force Franken out-I still wish he had
stayed to fight-she will NEVER get my vote for president and I really, really, really hope she is not
on the ticket as VP. There are so many, even this early, that I would rather see, especially Kamala
Harris. How about Sherrod Brown and Kamala Harris. Or Harris and Brown. I don't care which has
top billing. Actually, as long as we're talking, I would like to see someone who is part of the progressive wing of the democratic party with someone who is more middle of the road democrat
on the ticker together.
 

Perseus

(4,341 posts)
39. I do hope that if she were to become the candidate for the Democratic party
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:32 PM
Jan 2019

that you will vote for her, its a choice between the orange buffoon, or any republican, and a democrat, no matter who the democrat is. The country cannot take four more years of republicans, as is it will take a long time to fix the damage from these two years.

LakeArenal

(28,820 posts)
112. ? Both Harris and Brown signed the Railroad letter...
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:32 PM
Jan 2019

So did my personal favorites Baldwin and Booker. I won’t vote in a primary for either of them.

 

Perseus

(4,341 posts)
36. I have asked this question before, maybe someone here can answer it
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:30 PM
Jan 2019

Why are people not rooting for Adam Schiff as a candidate? I thnk he would make a hell of a president, one we can be proud of. Is there something I don't know?

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
42. So far it doesn't seem like he's ever expressed an interest in it.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:40 PM
Jan 2019

I like him a lot, too, and if he did want to run he'd be on my list - and way, way ahead of Gillibrand.

question everything

(47,487 posts)
76. People often are best in specific posts and Adam Schiff is excellent as head of
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 07:22 PM
Jan 2019

the House intelligence committee where he will call witnesses to testify. He knows this job.

Though he did express an interest in the senate when Feinstein will end her.

Similarly, and I know I will rattle many here, I think that Warren is an excellent senator, or can be an excellent cabinet member, perhaps chair the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau that was her idea.

LakeArenal

(28,820 posts)
115. I do agree. But maybe we NEED him to run
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:42 PM
Jan 2019

He has every characteristic I love in a political leader. AND the best poker face!!

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
122. His fan base has mentioned it, but he isn't talking.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 01:54 PM
Jan 2019

I would wait until at least he talks about forming an exploratory committee, or says something indicating he might be interested. I know he was in New Hampshire in October of last year, but he isn't on the radar yet.

He is an excellent communicator and has been great on taking on Trump.

Hangdog Slim

(81 posts)
46. Please let me once again. . .
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 05:46 PM
Jan 2019

Please let me once again state her first stop was Wall Street! That in and of itself disqualifies her in my opinion. Thank you. That is all. As you were.

marieo1

(1,402 posts)
56. Hypocrisy of Gillibrand
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:04 PM
Jan 2019

I can't stand Gillibrand. She talks out both sides of her mouth. I will always believe she went after Al Franken because she saw him as a competitor that would be hard to beat. Al Franken had become one of our strongest voices in congress and a 'Giant in the Senate'. We needed him in the Senate - can you imagine how he would be fighting for us today!!!

Butterflylady

(3,544 posts)
66. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:27 PM
Jan 2019

I was completely unaware of many of her stances. I knew about the NRA but was not aware of the others.

JNelson6563

(28,151 posts)
67. The one thing I knew for sure when that all happened.
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:28 PM
Jan 2019

I knew then she was running for President. I saw that as her first announcement.

I'm not a fan but much more to do with her short tenure as a liberal. I'd prefer someone who has lived it all their lives, right in the trenches, not from afar in the cushy gallery.

 

Trumpocalypse

(6,143 posts)
70. There were two letters
Thu Jan 17, 2019, 06:35 PM
Jan 2019

But you only chose to share one. Here is the other:

After Gillibrand’s announcement Tuesday that she will seek the presidency, many former constituents of Al Franken have expressed their lingering anger toward her on his behalf. This warrants a few reminders:

•?Franken resigned from the Senate of his own accord, without an investigation, at the request of Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y.

•?Gillibrand was joined by a swath of other progressive leaders in calling for Franken’s resignation. The group includes other announced and likely presidential candidates, such as Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., and Sen. Kamala Harris, D-Calif., and even Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt.

•?Gillibrand has been consistent in her efforts to root out sexual harassment in the workplace, whether that’s her support for the #MeToo movement, introduction of legislation supporting military service members who have been sexually harassed, or even remarks that, in retrospect, Bill Clinton (a hero of her own party) should have resigned in the wake of his own indiscretions. To suggest that her demand that Franken be held accountable for his actions was an isolated or opportunistic move is to ignore her record.

Gillibrand may or may not be the right candidate to lead the Democratic Party in 2020. Either way, Minnesotan progressives owe her an open mind and opportunity to articulate her vision for our country without Franken’s specter lingering over her.

DFW

(54,408 posts)
111. It was not Chuck Schumer that was the deciding factor in Al's decision to resign
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:32 PM
Jan 2019

It was the fact that the Governor of Minnesota publicly announced Al's replacement before even asking if he had made a decision that was the deciding factor. Unless Al has said something different to you personally or to someone you know personally (and I am using the same standard for my statement here) since last April, you can take that as gospel.

Yes, 30 other Democratic Senators jumped on the bandwagon. It was at the height of the Doug Jones campaign, and KG did come out with forceful language that convinced many Democratic Senators that a time window was rapidly closing, and that this was a boat they dare not miss. Never mind that his "accusers" had nothing to back up their accusations. The Senators erred in their judgment, every last one of them. Barring a public, personal apology to Al, there is not a one of them I will support in the primary next year. If Putin decides he wants a larger piece of the Ukraine, and sends his army to back that decision up, I want a cooler head as CIC to deal with it. I would rather have Al Franken, for that matter, in the Situation Room than ANY of his 30+ detractors.

I saw Gillibrand announce her candidacy on the Colbert show (I am in the States until Monday). She was lame, used stock phrases (going to "bring us all together?" Wow, what a daring plan!), and was not at all quick-thinking. Any Minnesotan progressive (or one from any other state) who was open-mindedly willing to let her state case should have gagged at her poor performance. It certainly gave me the impression that her hounding of Al Franken was brought on by design and not by conviction.

DFW

(54,408 posts)
130. I'm not interested in permanently obsessing over this
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:09 PM
Jan 2019

But certain things cannot be definitively fact-checked without direct access to the parties involved, and that one deserved correction.

question everything

(47,487 posts)
137. Thank you for your clear analysis
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 03:06 PM
Jan 2019

Thus, Franken has been the "collateral damage" to block Roy Moore. How sad, how disheartening.

Still, as I post elsewhere on this thread - it was the drip drip drip method that was used with Hillary's emails. It appeared that every other day, or so, a new allegations appeared and he had to respond to each. This would have affected his effectiveness. Still, his peers should have awaited for the ethics committee, not that it would have made a difference.

DFW

(54,408 posts)
140. There was a reason he was slow to react
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 03:17 PM
Jan 2019

Namely, he knew better than anyone the "allegations" were all bogus, and didn't think there was anything to respond to. It blindsided him completely that anyone took them seriously, and people who knew him and his family well never did.

Zen Democrat

(5,901 posts)
86. I believe that Gillibrand used Franken for her personal political purposes.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:27 AM
Jan 2019

Therefore, the only circumstances under which I would vote for her is ... if the choice is between her and a republican.

 

mentalslavery

(463 posts)
92. she wont get far....you can tell she's fake
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 10:28 AM
Jan 2019

from the repetitive (obviously practiced) voice inflection when she talks. she does this thing where every sentence ends in this whispered tone like she is trying to convey how much she cares about everyone and every issue. I noticed this during the maddow interview and at first i was thinking it was effective .....but then when she did it every sentence i realized how fake she was gonna come off. it sounds really practiced. people are gonna see right thru her quick

LittleGirl

(8,287 posts)
95. As a former
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 11:10 AM
Jan 2019

AZ resident (now abroad) I won't vote for her in the primary and if she becomes the nominee, I will not do anything to support her.

Listen, I have very strong feminist views and she is not someone I would support after how she railroaded Al out of the Senate. She blew it.

Al should run for President and I would do everything I could to get him elected.

padah513

(2,503 posts)
96. The Franken thing stuck in my craw a little bit
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 11:15 AM
Jan 2019

And I wouldn't vote for her in a primary, but if she is the nominee, then I will support her fully.

mahina

(17,669 posts)
100. Nor mine. Her spectacular flameout on. Rachel Maddow (1st interview. Since
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 11:56 AM
Jan 2019

Announcing) sealed it.

Al Franken is the reason Sessions recused.

His economy of words and laser razor wit stands in marked contrast. What a staggering loss, for nothing.

flying_wahini

(6,606 posts)
104. It was ALL about HER career. Get rid of a more popular candidate;look good & (feel good)doing it.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:16 PM
Jan 2019

She will only get my vote if she's the last Dem standing.

 

Perrenial Voter

(173 posts)
109. While I am really sorry about the loss of Franken, who
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:27 PM
Jan 2019

would have been great during the Kavanah hearings, I thought this was done to establish a marker -- a 0-tolerance policy -- for the Democratic Party as a contrast with the Republican Party. In other words, it was a political move for the good of the party, one that Franken went along with and sacrificed his position for.

However, the episode highlights the need for nuances in sexual harassment allegations and for some discussion of the kind of evidence that can be expected to support such allegations. Journalists have an incentive to sensationalize allegations, while in a legal setting it is very hard to make a case. My view is that, for these kinds of crimes, lie detectors should be used and made admissable in court to get beyond the "he said, she said" modality. Likewise, capturing data from cell phones and social media ought to be the norm in such cases.

 

MrModerate

(9,753 posts)
117. If this was political jiu-jitsu to calibrate the Democratic Party to the #MeToo movement . . .
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 12:49 PM
Jan 2019

Then it was stupid, stupid, stupid; dishonorable; and cost way too much.

LakeArenal

(28,820 posts)
126. Agree with your second paragraph.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:01 PM
Jan 2019

Not so much the first.

I won’t rehash my opinion of Al “went along.”

When did we need to needlessly “sacrifice” our most popular senator for our party.

In the end.... look how much it “helped” the party.

This issue alone is going to keep Gillibrand out. It may cause Harris, Schumer, Booker, Brown and the rest to be out. In my book they are out. I actually hope they are. Is that helping the party?

This episode of political opportunity to me does not do anything to help victims of real abuse either.

Meanwhile the people’s hopes for Al are smashed and wasted.

Collimator

(1,639 posts)
132. I will vote for Gillibrand.
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 02:12 PM
Jan 2019

If it is necessary, yes, I will vote for Kirsten Gillibrand. However, I will take no pride in that action.

As for Franken, he was essentially being put in the position of answering the question, "When did you stop molesting women?" It was close to a no-win situation for the man, and he did his best for the greater good when he chose to resign.

Franken has been criticized for his responses towards his accusers. If he had flatly stated that any one of them was lying, he would have been employing the tactic used by genuine sexual predators. Some say that he didn't really--truly--apologize. Again, like the loaded question above, a seriously remorseful apology would have been an admission of guilt, which would have been an untruth.

Franken was walking the careful line of respecting the #MeToo movement and the enormous, completely real issue of sexual assault and the abuse of power that proceeds sexual harassment and sexual misconduct.

Yes, women need to be believed. Yes, men need to be held accountable. And yes, women--being human beings--can sometimes misconstrue, misrepresent or outright lie. This statement does not make me a bad feminist or a self-hating woman.

We all know that children have been the victims of sexual abuse. We all care about this issue. We also know that people's reputations were ruined during the Day-care sex abuse hysteria that took place 30 years ago. Some of the people hurt were the children being prodded and manipulated psychologically during the investigations. Other people hurt since then may have been children who were not listened to or believed by people wary of being caught up in such unfounded thinking a second time around.

We care about women. We care about sexual harassment, sexual assault and abuse of power. We also care about truth. Al Franken was not served with truth, and sexual abuse victims everywhere were not served by the distortion of truth and the abuse of power that targeted him.

I am including a link to an article that I strongly disagree with because I am not sure how to articulate my points of disagreement. Perhaps someone else can do a better job.


https://www.vox.com/2018/5/21/17352230/al-franken-accusations-resignation-democrats-leann-tweeden-kirsten-gillibrand

cp

(6,636 posts)
144. Good letter to the editor
Fri Jan 18, 2019, 03:43 PM
Jan 2019

Thank you for posting it.
Anyone enabling Roger Stone's ratfecking will not get my vote. Ever.

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