Julian Assange är inget offer (Julian Assange is not a victim)

[struggle4progress]

Ecuador meddelade i torsdags att landet beviljar Wikileaksgrundaren Julian Assange politisk asyl. Beslutet berör överhuvudtaget inte skuldfrågan i det svenska ärendet, där han är skäligen misstänkt för våldtäkt, två fall av sexuellt ofredande samt ett fall av olaga tvång involverande två olika kvinnor.

... Överlag har argumenten kring hela Assange-affären gradvis förskjutits och varierat beroende på om de förts av Assanges svenska eller internationella tillskyndare ... Tre olika spår kan skönjas. Det första, där en CIA-komplott arrangerat hela händelseförloppet med förförande kvinnor och falska anklagelser med syfte att misskreditera Assange, och få honom utlämnad till USA. Det andra har ifrågasatt det svenska rättssystemet. Åklagaren har anklagats för att inte dela med sig av bevis, att procedurer har åsidosatts och att Assange inte har blivit delgiven på ett korrekt vis.

Det tredje argumentet är det mest, så att säga, intressanta. Utomlands anklagas Sverige för att vara ett ”feminismens Saudiarabien”, där de svenska lagarna kring våldtäkt och sexualbrott sägs vara påverkade av en radikal feminism. Denna åsikt framförs sällan i Sverige. I samtliga dessa fall är Assange offret, och de anmälande kvinnorna avfärdas.

http://ekuriren.se/ledareasikter/ledare/1.1525031-julian-assange-ar-inget-offer


Ecuador announced on Thursday that the country is granting Julian Assange political asylum. That decision doesn't affect the Swedish case, in which he is reasonably suspected of rape, two counts of sexual molestation, and one case of unlawful coercion involving two different women ...

... Overall, arguments about the Assange affair have shifted and varied, depending on whether they are made ​​by Assange's Swedish or international promoters ... Three different tracks can be seen. In the first, a CIA conspiracy organized the whole event with seductive women and false allegations aimed at discrediting Assange and his extradition to the US. The others question the Swedish legal system. The prosecutor is accused of failing to share evidence that procedures have been violated and that Assange has not been informed in a proper manner.

The third argument is the most interesting, so to speak. Sweden is accused abroad of being a "Saudi Arabia of feminism," where the Swedish laws on rape and sexual offenses are said to be influenced by radical feminism. This view is expressed rarely in Sweden. In all these versions, Assange is a victim, and the women are dismissed. None of it has passed muster. The British ruling is clear and should be followed. Julian Assange should be extradited to Sweden to be interrogated so that either the allegations can be dismissed or Assange prosecuted.

[Electric Monk]

1. Please show me on this doll where Julian Assange touched you

[struggle4progress]

2. You aren't interested in this Swedish editorial on Assange?

[Cha]

3. Thanks for the

Swedish editorial, struggle4progress. Sorry, those who dont like it have to get so personal in their attacks on you.

[struggle4progress]

4. DU is what it is

[Electric Monk]

6. I think the importance of it pales in comparison to, say, this

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/CIA_Red_Cell_Memorandum_on_United_States_%22exporting_terrorism%22,_2_Feb_2010

or this http://wikileaks.org/the-gifiles.html

for just two examples.

[MelungeonWoman]

13. I urge everyone to read these links!

I read the summaries on both of these links and hope that everyone on this thread in agreement clicks those links and gives Wikileaks the hits. Thanks for posting them Electric Monk, I hope someone posts Wikileak links on all these negative threads. These constant attack threads might be distasteful but if they cause Wikileaks to get more exposure they might end up having a positive purpose.

I am unable to assist Wikileaks financially but another good way to discourage these attack threads would be to pledge a particular amount for each attack thread found. Just think how much money they could raise if several people decided to donate money for each attack thread posted.

There's more than one way to make lemonade from this lemon.

[treestar]

26. Why does discussion have to be discouraged about anything?

Why is it a goal to shut down discussion.

Whatever in those links does not mean Julian cannot be prosecuted for these sexual violations. Surely we don't give anyone a pass there, no matter how much we agree with their unrelated actions or politics?

[Aerows]

29. Yeah, why is it a goal to shut down discussion? n/t

[treestar]

37. The poster I was responding to has that goal:

to discourage these attack threads

[treestar]

27. I don't think there is any lack of importance in protecting women from rape and other sexual assault

How can any liberal say that it is not important?

How can it "pale in comparison" to anything in particular?

[Aerows]

30. I don't think there is any lack of importance

in insuring that someone gets a fair trial, either. As a liberal, that should also be important to you.

[treestar]

35. They are of equal importance

I don't believe this on a liberal board - the idea that Julian getting to get away with what he's done is more important than a sexual assault charge against him, so that should just be forgotten.

[Aerows]

41. I don't see anyone saying that

I see people saying that he should get a fair trial. Most people know that if he is extradited to the US, the last thing he will get is a fair trial - if he even gets a trial before he's locked away.

Do you have an objection to Julian Assange doing what he has to do to ensure that he gets a fair day in court, or are you just ready to declare him guilty and thrown in GITMO? Because that has a very large chance of happening if he is extradited to the US.

[JDPriestly]

65. If we can extradite Julian Assange, who else can we extradite?

How about the leader of North Korea? He probably spies on the US. Wouldn't be surprised.

How about other people we don't like? Chavez in Venezuela? We don't like a lot of people. No doubt we can find some crime somewhere that they have committed. Get some third country to indict them on it and then extradite them to the US. That's the game here. If it weren't, Sweden would agree to question Assange, try him under Swedish law and refuse to extradite him to the US for a crime that could have the death penalty.

Assange is a foreign national. He is not subject to US law. We have not business imposing our law on nationals of other countries unless they commit crimes in this country. Assange was not in this country when he published Wikileaks. If he had been, he would have enjoyed the protection of the First Amendment. The US is acting like a spoiled teenager and not a country full of well educated lawyers. This case is ridiculous.

[JDPriestly]

64. Do we know of other instances in which Britain extradited an Australian to a third

country on the grounds of a rape alleged to have occurred in the bed of the alleged victim after a night of dalliance while the alleged victim was sleeping? It appears that is the most distasteful of the charges.

What is being sought here? Deterrence. Assange's absence from Sweden assures that.

Or revenge? If so, by whom? Are the women really that keen on revenge?

What is the real purpose for the extradition on these charges.

Bush ordered the torture of suspects, at least one of whom was completely innocent and taken into custody based on mistaken identity. Why the zeal in prosecuting this sort of rape charge? Is rape of this sort wrong? Yes. But generally men don't even get indicted for it, much less extradited for it.

So, it isn't the moral or legal right or wrong that is the issue here, it is the disproportionate zeal for prosecuting this particular defendant for this particular conduct when there are so many serious crimes in the world that are never prosecuted -- simply because the perpetrator is so important.

This is a political prosecution in my opinion. It isn't that rape isn't a serious crime, but this is still a political prosecution.

[ronnie624]

7. There was no rape.

There aren't even any accusations of rape. The author's credibility is shattered, right off the bat. There's really nothing to discuss. All one is left to do, is wonder at your obsession.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. No, there is an accuation of rape

see http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021143036

[ronnie624]

28. I've seen no accusations of rape by the two Swedish women.

According to the Findings of facts and reasons that has been posted repeatedly, Assange cannot be legally charged until he has been interviewed.

When I see credible reports of the two women publicly accusing him, that's when I'll believe there are real accusations of rape.

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. The official record of the extradition hearing isn't good enough for you?

That's what was quoted.

[ronnie624]

36. No accusations by the two women and no charges have been filed.

'Charged' is a legalistic synonym for 'accused', isn't it?

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. No, they are not synonyms (nt)

[ronnie624]

47. The term Charge may refer to:

1. A formal accusation of an offense which is the preliminary step to prosecution. For example “A was charged with the murder of his wife.”

2. A financial burden or an encumbrance, lien or claim. For example “a charge on property.”

3. Jury Charge. Instruction given by a judge to a jury about the law, its application, and the weighing of evidence.

4. An instruction or command or order. For example “a mother’s charge to her son”

5. A responsibility or assigned duty or task. For example “The manager was in charge of the administration of the office.”

6. A person or thing entrusted to another’s care. For example “ the baby sitter’s three charges.”

7. To set or ask as a price cost or expense. For example “the services are free of charge.”

8. In Parliamentary law, it refers to a deliberative assembly’s mandate to a committee.

[link:http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/charge/|

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. Exactly.

'Charge' is the formal accusation. Thus, 'charge' and 'accusation' are not synonyms. When someone reports a crime, and they name the person they say committed it, they accuse them. It is an accusation.

[ronnie624]

49. The two women have made no accusations of rape.

In fact, there are reports that they have said exactly the opposite.

Still no real or official accusation.

[JDPriestly]

66. What was the language in the extradition documents based on?

Did the women testify in the British court? Did they send letters?

Is it based on statements they made to the police? Are the women asking that the charges be pursued? This is all very up in the air.

I believe the only charge that could stick concerns sex that allegedly took place in the woman's bed after a night of dalliance.

The woman may have been raped, but it will be very hard to prove it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

69. No, they didn't testify in court, but European Arrest Warrants don't work like that

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/judicial_cooperation_in_criminal_matters/l33167_en.htm

It's not a separate testing of evidence; it's checking that the offence is serious, that the correct procedure for the requesting country has been followed, and there aren't any of the given reasons for refusing it.

They're used frequently; there are complaints they are used for trivial offences, like stealing bikes or piglets: http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/apr/10/trivial-undermine-european-arrest-warrants

It's based on the case put forward by the Swedish prosecutors, which is based on the women's statements.

[JDPriestly]

63. Are there any other instances in which Britain extradited a non-resident

from Britain on charges of rape based on intercourse without a condom while the couple was sleeping in the woman's own bed in her own house after a very affectionate night?

Any???

As long as Assange stays out of Sweden this won't happen again. That's for sure. Deterrence is achieved. Is this really about revenge? Very expensive revenge, isn't it?

[struggle4progress]

68. I do not know how you would know the actual facts in this case. Perhaps you have ESP?

Let me say that I myself gave up my own ESP decades ago. Knowing everything about everybody involved too much random mental noise, which I did not think was worth the trouble

Nowadays, in such cases, I simply expect that, in stable democracies with very low levels of corruption (such as, say, Sweden) the criminal justice system can probably sort out the facts in an ordinary criminal case with reasonable reliability and fairness, without me taking a stand, one way or the other, on the merits of the allegations or the relative credibilities of the various parties

[JDPriestly]

72. Here's the rub.

"the relative credibilities of the various parties."

In our country, the trier of fact, maybe a jury or the judge, assesses credibility. It is a very subjective matter in many cases.
He
In a case as politically charged as the Assange case, it will be very difficult for a judge to assess credibility. I think that no matter the outcome, there will be accusations of error or even corruption.

And who can say whether the accuser was really asleep or whether the accused knew she was asleep if she was?

While it may technically be rape, it is very, very difficult to prove. Maybe impossible in a case in which there is apparently no physical evidence.

The accusations are, even if true, tainted. As is the entire Swedish case. They should interview Assange in London or over the internet, whatever, if they must finish the case. I pity the judge who might have to decide this case, because the decision he would make would be extremely controversial, given a lot of publicity and perhaps ruin his ability to decide other criminal cases.

Not worth pursuing.

And I don't think that it will be possible to prove that Assange had the necessary intent to violate the Espionage Act either.

[struggle4progress]

73. I have no opinion about the merits of the Swedish allegation, and as I have already told you

I feel confident that the Swedes can sort out the facts here reliably and fairly, without my taking any stand on the merits of the allegations: issues, of the sort you want to discuss, can be raised by Assange and his lawyers at the appropriate times

As the British courts have clearly held, the Swedish request for extradition in order to question Assange cannot be understood in terms of English law, but must be understood in terms of Swedish law, which is not directly comparable to the process in the UK

The Swedish assertion, that Assange is to be questioned, indicates the beginning of Swedish legal process. More or less, it means that the matter is at the point where the suspect is remanded into custody for further proceedings, perhaps corresponding roughly to arraignment under our system. It does not mean here that the authorities would simply like to have a nice chat with Assange over coffee and donuts to tie up some loose ends

Decisions, regarding exactly which allegations of ordinary crime in Sweden deserve further attention by Swedish authorities, are really decisions for the Swedish authorities, who will have more access to the evidence than anonymous posters on a message board

I have never taken any stand on whether the US should charge Assange, because that would require me to have some opinion about exactly what Assange has done

I do not at present have any knowledge that might lead me to think Assange had committed any recognizable federal crime

Of course, given that something like 750K confidential documents were leaked, I do expect that an extremely fine-grained investigation into the matter: there must be many issues to sort out, such as whether this massive well-publicized leak could be a cover for some smaller but more damaging security breech. As I said, I have no knowledge that might lead me to an opinion

One thing we do know so far is: the US has not requested extradition of Assange

[Quantess]

14. fråga Pippi Långstrump

http://www.google.se/imgres?um=1&hl=sv&biw=1241&bih=584&tbm=isch&tbnid=azjQeH8dD8_KkM:&imgrefurl=http://lustigdesign.blogspot.com/2011_01_01_archive.html&docid=LZ81suu9CeL7cM&itg=1&imgurl=&w=1200&h=1600&ei=LrwwUKdj7pDiBO7tgfgI&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=437&vpy=122&dur=309&hovh=200&hovw=151&tx=95&ty=104&sig=111144506132842229929&page=2&tbnh=132&tbnw=100&start=23&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:23,i:152

[Matariki]

32. rofl

you'd think it was personal, wouldn't you?

[egduj]

44. Funny the first time - hack the second time.

even if it is your own joke.

[Odin2005]

50. ROFLMAO!!!

[SidDithers]

52. Shouldn't you be asking the women that Assange sexually assaulted?...nt

Sid

[LadyHawkAZ]

5. That's an op/ed page

You realize you can find any number of wingnut op/eds here in the States on any given day, saying how wonderful Mittens is? That's why they're called "opinion" pages, and why the old saw compares opinions to assholes.

[sendero]

20. Yes and this particular...

.. poster only posts the idiotic ones.

[backscatter712]

8. Another hit-piece...

[cali]

9. give it a rest. it seems like you're posting nothing

but a constant stream of anti-Assange pieces. And this one is particularly full of dog shit.

[Matariki]

33. Yeah but the subject line has Swedish in it

and that makes it all so much more serious and real, lol

[TroglodyteScholar]

46. No "seems" about it

Posting questionable attacks on Assange is the only reason this poster is on DU right now.

[Cleita]

10. No but DU is victim to your constant

disinformation and hit pieces about Assange. You have been given the correct information and facts over and over again and yet you just go on your merry way with any fiction you can find and doing all the spam that you can get away with.

[reorg]

11. Ur-Feminist: "Free feminism has been kidnapped"

The sole "Ur-Feminist" Helene Bergman from Radio Ellen of the 1980s once again reflects on the development she has seen. She asks: "How could the sexual and feminist revolution of the 1960s be turned into an oppressive apparatus of power in the 2000s, where our men and sons are portrayed as potential rapists and women as stupid little geese?"

Her own beginning of an answer describes what has taken place in Sweden:

"Free feminism was kidnapped at the end of the 1980s, was disarmed, renamed Gender Equality and incorporated in the power apparatus. Gender equality was elevated to state norm and ideology, and became a career ladder, not least in politics, bureacracy and the judiciary (...) Sex became gender and the target was no longer the partiarchal state apparatus but turned over to men as a sex and sexual beings."

Source: A Brief History of Swedish Sex: How the Nation that Gave Us Free Love Redefined Rape and Declared War on Julian Assange. Oscar Swartz, e-book publication, available at Amazon.

To The Swedish Ombudsmen for Justice (JO)

We most urgent require that the ombudsmen for justice investigates the Swedish handling of the case of Julian Assange, by the prosecutor Marianne Ny, Director of the Public Prosecution Authority Development Center in Gothenburg.

1. Mr. Assange could have been investigated by the Swedish police before he left the country on September 27, 2010, and with the knowledge of the prosecutor Marianne Ny. At that date Mr. Assange had been available for an interwiev during five weeks.

2. Since Mr. Assange arrived in London, he has on several occasions offered to give his own version of what happened in Stockholm in August 2010, at the Swedish embassy, or being questioned by video link.

3. In late July, Mr. Assange offered to talk to the Swedish prosecutor, now at the embassy of Ecuador, where he has asked for asylum.
The prosecutor, Ms. Ny has at all different occasions neglected or rejected Mr. Assanges proposals.

Between August 13, and August 16 Mr. Assange had consensual sex with two different women.

On August 20, 2010, the two women went to a local police station in Stockholm in order to urge Mr. Assange to undergo an HIV-test. At that point the police choosed to start an investigation about rape, without the consent of the two women.

On the same day a prosecutor decided to issue an arrest warrant for Mr. Assange. At the time the newspaper Expressen, headlined a front page article “Assange accused of rape”.

The next day another prosecutor decided that there was no reason for the warrant.

On August 30, interrogates Julian Assange for the first time by the Swedish police, and denies all allegations.

The day after the lawyer of the two women, Mr. Claes Borgström, who also was a former Swedish Ombudsman for equality, requested that the case should be reopened by the prosecutor in Gothenburg, Marianne Ny.

Julian Assange is now again accused of rape, molest, and sexual harassment.

Mr. Assange stayed in Sweden until September 27 for further questioning.

We are, like his lawyer, Mr. Baltasar Garzón, serious concerned, regarding the lack of safeguards and transparency with which actions are being taken against Julian Assange, and the harassment he is being subjected to which has irreparable effects on his physical and mental wellbeing.

The threats against his person are further aggravated by the complicit behavior of the Swedish governmental authorities. This has implied that Mr. Assanges civil rights, and his rights according to the European Convention have been violated.

Helene Bergman, journalist
Anders Carlgren, journalist

Helene Bergman has worked as a journalist for more than 40 years, mainly at the Swedish Broadcasting Corporation, which is the main public service company in Sweden. She co-founded and anchored the legendary Swedish feminist radio show, Radio Ellen.

http://khelenebergman.blogspot.de/

[xchrom]

22. this

[HooptieWagon]

12. The author of the article is paid to disseminate misinformation.

Makes us curious as to your motivation to do same.

[Quantess]

15. struggle4progress, it seems that

a common opinion in Sweden is that Assange needs to address the rape charges, and that he is worrying unnecessarily about being extradited to the USA.

[Le Taz Hot]

16. There are no rape charges.

All of this has been explained ad nauseum.

[Quantess]

17. Okay, sorry about the semantics.

I am just chiming in about some opinions I have encountered here in Sweden.

[Le Taz Hot]

19. Sorry as well.

I think I'm just frustrated at the OP who seems to have an unhealthy obsession against Assange.

[Quantess]

24. Yes, he loves posting negative swedish op-eds about Assange... in swedish

They are kind of interesting to me, since I can read most of them. Some of the articles are a bit above my comprehension, but I'm working on improving.

As to whether Sweden would really hand him over to the US, I am not sure either way. Sweden is very image-conscious, and it could be potentially look bad. They may not want to damage their international reputation. OTOH, the whole thing stinks. Especially if Karl Rove is quietly pulling some strings with the swedish government.

[treestar]

25. Why is it unhealthy?

There are plenty of posters posting constantly in favor of him - aren't they obsessed too? What is it about Julian that we should not be allowed to question him or his views of things? Why can't his supporters be opposed?

Why can't we find out what they think in Sweden, either way?

[Aerows]

67. I think it is pretty clear

that a common opinion here in the US, is that he has every right to be afraid of being extradited to the US. I'm a US citizen, and if I was in Assange's shoes, I'd be frightened of it. He's an Australian - he should DIRELY be afraid of it.

[hobbit709]

21. Obsess much?

Last edited Sun Aug 19, 2012, 09:02 AM - Edit history (1)

[tama]

23. Another Swedish opinion

http://www.scribd.com/doc/48396086/Assange-Case-Opionion-Sven-Erik-Alhem

Stating among other things that Assange is victim of illegal actions from Swedish prosecutor, confirming his name as suspect to media. And that the EAW instead of mutual assistance is out of proportion.

[struggle4progress]

38. Alhem testified in the UK courts that there was no way Sweden would extradite Assange to the US

[tama]

40. Then why

does not Sweden give that response to Ecuador's inquiries?

[struggle4progress]

55. Sweden doesn't owe Ecuador any response at all: Sweden took out a warrant on the man

and defended the warrant successfully in UK courts when Assange argued against it

[tama]

58. As in

"We are too high and mighty to do anything but talk down to you and expect you just to do as told." States and their superiority complexes, fuck all that. Do they think they are Gods or what?

[struggle4progress]

61. As in: "We have a valid warrant against him, which we successfully defended in open court

after more than a year of litigation, and despite the court case and its appeals being quite public, you never sought to intervene in the case"

[riderinthestorm]

34. This is an opinion piece. So I'm guessing you also support the OP/Eds in favor of Ryan's plan? Mitt?

They're just as much an authority as the stuff you're posting....

[Quantess]

42. Oops, wrong swedish anti-Assange article

[TroglodyteScholar]

45. What is your motivation...

...for flooding DU with anti-Wikileaks posts?

The "don't you want to know what Sweden thinks" line is weak and insufficient. It's time for full disclosure on your part.

[Zorra]

51. Remember this ridiculous anti-OWS propaganda headline from Rupert Murdoch's

New York Post?



Why would the NY Post irresponsibly print such a blatant misrepresentation of the truth?

Connect the following:

.......... ..........

Yep, you guessed it.

[SidDithers]

53. DU rec...

Keep posting these interesting opinions. Ignore the bleating from the "Leave St. Julian alone!!" crowd.

Sid

[djean111]

54. I think asking "don't you want to know what Sweden thinks" is silly or specious or at best

misleading or perhaps a bit grandiose.
What you have supplied is what ONE person in Sweden thinks.
I see no evidence that this person represents the entire country.
And anyway - what people in Sweden think has nothing to do with extradition to the United States.
I don't think the Swedish people will be consulted, for some reason.

[struggle4progress]

56. Perhaps you want to know what the Wikileaks coordinator in Stockholm said?

... The co-ordinator of the WikiLeaks group in Stockholm, who is a close colleague of Assange and who also knows both women, told the Guardian: "This is a normal police investigation. Let the police find out what actually happened. Of course, the enemies of WikiLeaks may try to use this, but it begins with the two women and Julian. It is not the CIA sending a woman in a short skirt" ...
http://www.alternet.org/story/149254/10_days_in_sweden%3A_the_full_allegations_against_julian_assange?page=3&paging=off

[djean111]

57. I don't care who said what, really - I want to know why Sweden will not give

assurances that Assange will not be handed to the United States.
Various people giving opinions means nothing.
And why would a close colleague of Assange be privy to what the United States is doing? The only leaked emails or cables I have seen - from Australia - indicate that the U.S. does want to extradite Assange. CIA or not.

Not sure what the point of relentless anti-Assange stuff is, really - is his fate to be decided by a DU poll?

[struggle4progress]

59. Do feel free to share a link to actual Australia cables that show that Australia

is sure the US will request Assange's extradition

I want a link to the actual cables, not just a link to somebody's interpretation of alleged cables

And the cables should show Australia really is convinced that the US will request Assange's extradition, not just that Australia thinks it's possible the US might eventually seek Assange's extradition

[tama]

60. In that case

contact the news facility in bold and request to see the original documents, or make your own freedom of information request:
"Declassified diplomatic cables from Australia’s embassy in Washington D.C., obtained through freedom of information requests filed by The Sydney Morning Herald, reveal that Australian officials have already begun laying the groundwork for the U.S. to pursue charges against WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange."
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/08/17/diplomatic-cables-reveal-australia-expects-u-s-to-charge-julian-assange/

Don't expect others to do your work for you, you can Google too.

[struggle4progress]

62. Here you merely provide Rawstory's summary of the Herald's summary of the cables:

that's removed from the cables themselves, so there's no guarantee it accurately reflects anything anybody actually said

[djean111]

70. But you want everyone to agree with an opinion piece.....in Swedish.....

Here's some advice - accept that some people disagree with you.
And that nothing said here, for or against Assange, has any effect on what will happen to him.

[struggle4progress]

71. What I want right now is for you to exhibit the cables, that (you claim) show Australia is convinced

the US will ask Sweden to extradite Assange