'Baby It's Cold Outside' pulled from Cleveland radio station amid #MeToo movement

[Floyd R. Turbo]

One local radio station has decided they "ought to say no, no no" to the now-controversial Christmas song, "Baby It's Cold Outside." 

WDOK 102.1, a Cleveland-based station that exclusively plays Christmas music during the holidays, announced this week the song would be removed from rotation after a listener called to say it was inappropriate amid the #MeToo movement. 

"Baby It's Cold Outside" has been a source of debate  for the past few years. Some argue it displays key signs of rape culture:

"Even if the intentions aren't sinister, it’s simply exhausting to be a woman in that situation," wrote USA TODAY's Mary Nahorniak. "In the original score, the male part is written as a 'wolf' and the woman as a 'mouse' — that speaks volumes about male predatory behavior. Many women know what it’s like to feel trapped by a man, whether emotionally or physically. In those situations, it doesn’t matter how it began or why she wants to leave, it only matters that she wants to go, now." 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2018/11/30/baby-its-cold-outside-cut-cleveland-radio-station-after-metoo/2160122002/

[janterry]

1. I've been waiting for this and am sort of sad

I like this song.

[democratisphere]

9. So do I!

[Mariana]

18. Why? It's not as if you will never be permitted to hear it again.

You can play it at home all you want.

[NurseJackie]

62. I wonder if they also banned "Every Breath You Take".

I've been waiting for this and am sort of sad

So am I. There's a version from the TV show "Glee" that I liked too.

I wonder if they also banned "Every Breath You Take"... it tells the story of sinister and obsessive stalking behavior.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Breath_You_Take#Origins_and_songwriting

The lyrics are the words of a possessive lover who is watching "every breath you take; every move you make". .... "I think the song is very, very sinister and ugly and people have actually misinterpreted it as being a gentle little love song, when it's quite the opposite."

[treestar]

100. I never saw it that way back when it was popular

I think the culture has changed. And certainly, the song is not meant literally. There's that romantic idea you can't stop thinking about the person, more prevalent back in the 70s. It may sound different now, but then it just didn't have that aura.

Likewise with Baby It's Cold. Put yourself back in the 40s and no one would see it in such a negative light.

[Ilsa]

187. I always thought of "Every Breath You Take" as threatening.

Never liked it as it isn't who I am.

[lastlib]

192. I always saw it in the context of Orwell's 1984....

The state: "Every step you take...I'll be watching you."

Same with "Wrapped Around Your Finger": "I will turn your face to alabaster--When you find your servant is your master."

[NurseJackie]

197. I suppose...

I always saw it in the context of Orwell's 1984....

I supposed that's possible, but it neglects to take into account the lyrics that indicate love and longing and outright possessiveness.

[ProfessorGAC]

222. Sting Is Probably The First To Tell People That

The writer of the Wiki quote did not discover anything. Sting said, back when the album was still hot, that is was not a love song, but rather a song from first person view of a disturbed mind. The whole album is rife with that, and it was on purpose.

[BumRushDaShow]

2. I had read a whole history behind that song

and I think it was written by a well-to-do couple on LI who would perform it at their annual Christmas party (I had long assumed it was part of some '50s Christmas-themed movie but no...). Of course then it went out in the wild and literally has dozens of cover versions - some of which actually reverse the roles.

[Charlotte Little]

4. Even with reversed roles

It’s creepy.

[BumRushDaShow]

11. Eh - it's "old-fashioned"

Some of the versions that SiriusXM has played (I remember one year, counting 9 different ones and the past couple years, at least 4 or 5 more) and some of them are hilarious - particularly when you have the older/vaudville entertainers doing it because they ad lib stuff in there - e.g., one with Sammy Davis Jr. and Carmen McCrae or the one with Pearl Baily and Hot Lips Page.

[Charlotte Little]

50. Oh, I agree it's old fashioned and from a different era

I don't think it should be viewed through the lens of Me Too, but I just personally think it's not a good song and creepy. And I have always felt this way about it. I turn the channel if it's playing. But that's just me.

[TlalocW]

153. Regardless of whether or not it's creepy or old-fashioned...

Last edited Tue Dec 4, 2018, 01:54 PM - Edit history (2)

It's still a song about a guy trying to get laid so Merry Christmas?

On Edit: That was my impression of one guy in a song. I may have gone overboard on my response to you (next post), but I don't appreciate being accused of marginalizing anyone especially over something as inconsequential to get your knicker twisted over as a song that's only played during one month out of the year.

TlalocW

[BumRushDaShow]

168. Amazing how

people want to marginalize men into being nothing more than sex-crazed "fucking machines" and want to take what is obviously written as a whimsical innuendo-filled call and response, into tthe depths of depravity.

[betsuni]

170. +1

[NurseJackie]

198. Agreed.

[Madam Mossfern]

201. Thank you

[thucythucy]

216. The original score describes the man as a "wolf"

and the woman as a "mouse."

Amazing how some song writers used to marginalize men into being nothing more than voracious carnivores with women as their prey.

If you're looking for "depths of depravity" you might start there.

[BumRushDaShow]

217. OFFS. The original Cinderella story had the stepsisters literally cut off parts of their feet

in order to try to fit into the famous golden slipper, but that is not the version that is generally featured today now is it?

[thucythucy]

221. "OFFS" Classic "whataboutism"

No, I hadn't heard that version of Cinderella.

Just like, in a decade or so, you won't be hearing this "Christmas song" played as widely as it is today.

You can always download it and play it over and over and over again to your heart's content.

And you're entirely free to revel in any fairy tale you like, no matter how grotesque.

Me, I think I'll pass.

[BumRushDaShow]

226. I'm glad you admitted

not to know all because nothing came before you. "Whataboutism" is not what applies here. What DOES apply is manufacturing a reason to dismiss why some don't psychoanalyze a song that is almost 75 years old and only played at a certain time of year.

And the crystal ball doesn't always work out the way some folks think it does. The disgraceful (IMHO) "Birth of a Nation" is still considered a "classic" 103 years later and is still being aired, as is the almost 80-year old "Gone With the Wind", and I expect this song will still be played in the future too - there are certainly dozens of "cover" versions.... and notably because it is a seasonal, non-religious lyrical duet.

Based on your assertion, we might as well just eliminate radio stations altogether because there are songs being played right now that are despised by the general populace and are overtly "grotesque".

You are free to critique this song but the dismissal of facts related to changes in societal interpretations, and the creation of revisions to and adaptations of popular stories, music (like this and a number of other "seasonal" songs), art, and film, and refusal to accept that historically it happens, is breathtaking. I get the view of how one might look at his song with the backdrop of the current era, but I also know it wasn't written in the current era either.

As a sidenote, they are about to once again revive "West Side Story", a 57 year old adaptation of guess what? Shakespeare's 421 year old Romeo and Juliet, which itself was a retelling of a 456 year old story. How horrible!

[thucythucy]

245. My oh my oh my.

So you're drawing an analogy here between this song and "Birth of a Nation"? The analogy works, but I don't see how it reinforces your point, which is, as I take it, that we shouldn't "psychoanalyze a song that is almost 75 years old" because... because what, exactly? You like the song? It's hummable? The idea of a single radio station deciding not to include it any more on its holiday playlists is a blow to everything you hold dear?

"Birth of a Nation" is a classic--but it's also obviously and toxically racist. Is pointing out that fact "psychoanalyzing" it? Or simply acknowledging that what was once deemed mainstream entertainment is now more accurately seen as intensely bigoted, and a falsification of history? "Birth of a Nation" was aired in the White House, and praised by President Wilson as "history writ in lightning" or some such hyperbole. What do you think the reaction would be if Trump held a screening of "Birth of a Nation" today? Would such a reaction from progressives merit one of your "OFFS"s?

Your last paragraph is such an obvious straw man. I'm not objecting to the song because it's old, so your sarcasm about my response to Shakespeare is misplaced. I'm pointing out that the song is a fairly obvious but also fairly insidious instance of rape culture. That it was seen in ages past as innocent and acceptable is just the point. Fortunately we've made some progress. I don't bemoan that, I applaud it.

And just to be clear, it isn't age I object to, it's sexism. One of the most popular of Grimm's Fairy Tales, back in the day, was "The Jew in the Thorn Bush." The Brothers Grimm were notoriously anti-Semitic. I suppose pointing that out would merit a "OFFS" and a few smileys from you, yes? To which I'll add my own

[BumRushDaShow]

246. Actually you just proved my point

with respect to "blowing" something "out of proportion". Particularly when one cherry picks lines out of the song and ignores others that establish an amorous and consensual relationship. As a woman myself I see nothing that suggests any kind of rampant "sexism" or "rape culture". Perhaps you and others have heard other "modern" covers of the song (some of which were posted in this thread) that add and emphasize a sinister overtone suggestive of a Svengali relationship, which is replete with a lack of awareness of the urban smoking and "cocktail" drinking culture of the '40s & '50s (with a myriad of speakeasys and night clubs being the entertainment of choice outside of the movies for those who were dating), but the earlier performers sang it in a benign and often humorous way. I have a sub to SiriusXM and they play a variety of genres of seasonal/holiday songs at this time of year on multiple stations, so the song, with its many covers, both traditional and modern, is usually in rotation.

And there's no strawman in my citations. They are merely establishing how plots and plot devices get repeated and revised over time to fit the culture of the current day and how attempting to imply what the intent was at an earlier time, based on what the societal norms and expectations are today, is often a slippery slope.

[BumRushDaShow]

253. This is a discussion board and this thread is full of opinions

and you have yours and I have mine. It's as simple as that. Talking about where to put "sticks" and whatnot is just juvenile.

[treestar]

184. He could mean just stay longer

Otherwise, this song would not have been publicized in the 40s. Then it was completely impossible to refer to such a thing in song lyrics. Even into the early 70s, radio stations bleeped out "damn" in "Bad bad Leroy Brown."

There are a few other Christmas songs with some romance, take Winter Wonderland, where they refer to getting married. That is more the speed of those times. No one in the 40s thinks that is terrible because of the proper reference to marriage in the song. But if they thought it referred to "getting laid" (A term that did not exist then) they would have been horrified and that song never played.

[LisaM]

127. Frank Loesser and his wife.

I think the kerfuffle over the song is misplaced. She wants to stay; the.point is that society was all judge-y about unmarried people spending the night together.

[BumRushDaShow]

131. Thank you!

I was too lazy to go look up where I saw it.

I've been a fan of canons, rounds, point-counterpoint, and call/response duets since I was a kid and this song has such an interesting melody and lyrics, and allows for both singing and speaking the words. And there have been covers of it that have all sorts of silly ad libs in between the verses to add some real comic banter between the performers. So I just never thought to associate it with going into any type of nefarious direction although it has all the trappings of intentional but cloaked innuendo.

[regnaD kciN]

135. Yep. For those who aren't up on the history of American musical theatre...

...Frank Loesser was the composer of a number of classic shows, including Guys and Dolls, The Most Happy Fella, and How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying.

[LisaM]

145. How to Succeed is one of my faves...

I'm so glad Robert Morris reprised his role for the movie.

[FM123]

209. I just read a piece on Buzzfeed from last year that says the same thing, LisaM

It suggests that she wants to stay but she is concerned about what people will think.

She states explicitly that she’s resisting because she’s supposed to, not because she wants to: “I ought to say no no no…” She states explicitly that she’s just putting up a token resistance so she’ll be able to claim later that she did what’s expected of a decent woman in this situation: “at least I’m gonna say that I tried.” And at the end of the song they’re singing together, in harmony, because they’re both on the same page and they have been all along.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/andyneuenschwander/someone-wrote-a-feminist-defense-of-baby-its-col

[paranoid floyd]

243. Thanks for the link, very interesting read.

For me, I’m not a fan simply because of the overplay. There are so many versions and all the radio stations, local or Internet, seem to want to play all of them which means you hear that song so many times.

The link you posted brought a new aspect I’ve taken to that song. I would encourage anyone to check it out.

[WillowTree]

174. It was from a movie.......or at least it was in one. Neptune's Daughter, 1949.

[link:

|

[BumRushDaShow]

175. It wasn't written for that though

It came out 5 years before and some of the popular recordings of it were done before that movie came out.

The way it was done made me think it would have been perfect for a movie though and it was eventually used in one.

[Charlotte Little]

3. I have always considered the era in which the song was written

But hated it nonetheless. It’s just not a good song, IMO. Good riddance.

[crazycatlady]

148. musically, it is a good song. Lyrically, it is a terrible song

[Hortensis]

177. It's certainly a pre- sexual revolution song.

This cheery little ditty back then was of course about mating behaviors between consenting adults, but what a difference in attitude underlying it.

Women back then still had a strong moral duty to protect their virtue, and unpleasant consequences for failing that duty were socially beneficial, even required, to the point of largely accepting the necessary role Romeos like this one had in these morality plays. Reminds me of very bad, promiscuous Marilyn Monroe who needed to die in Niagara; it was the only morally acceptable outcome.

I started out assuming a big whatever for this playful song, but ended up agreeing. Cute as it is, the whole attitude carried through to today by those lyrics is not appropriate. Definitely keep the music, but whole new story to go with. Maybe one trying to woo the other into agreeing that a 6' tree will be just as nice as a 9' one. Plenty should be able to identify with that.

[Squinch]

202. This. There are lots of things that were considered fine in their era. That doesn't make them fine

in ours.

Examples: blackface, men "spanking" their wives in ads and tv shows (think Lucy), midget tossing. All of these things were considered to be playful and fun in their time. None of them were. We don't do them anymore. Rightfully so.

TODAY, when we finally understand that one in four women will be assaulted in her lifetime, that song has no place.

[Cirque du So-What]

5. The lyrics (post wolf / mouse):

Baby it's cold outside

I really can't stay - Baby it's cold outside
I've got to go away - Baby it's cold outside
This evening has been - Been hoping that you'd drop in
So very nice - I'll hold your hands, they're just like ice
My mother will start to worry - Beautiful, what's your hurry
My father will be pacing the floor - Listen to the fireplace roar
So really I'd better scurry - Beautiful, please don't hurry
Well Maybe just a half a drink more - Put some records on while I pour

The neighbors might think - Baby, it's bad out there
Say, what's in this drink - No cabs to be had out there
I wish I knew how - Your eyes are like starlight now
To break this spell - I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell
I ought to say no, no, no, sir - Mind if I move a little closer
At least I'm gonna say that I tried - What's the sense in hurting my pride
I really can't stay - Baby don't hold out
Ahh, but it's cold outside

C'mon baby

I simply must go - Baby, it's cold outside
The answer is no - Ooh baby, it's cold outside
This welcome has been - I'm lucky that you dropped in
So nice and warm -- Look out the window at that storm
My sister will be suspicious - Man, your lips look so delicious
My brother will be there at the door - Waves upon a tropical shore
My maiden aunt's mind is vicious - Gosh your lips look delicious
Well maybe just a cigarette more - Never such a blizzard before
Baby It's Cold Outside

I've got to get home - Oh, baby, you'll freeze out there
Say, lend me your comb - It's up to your knees out there
You've really been grand - Your eyes are like starlight now
But don't you see - How can you do this thing to me
There's bound to be talk tomorrow - Making my life long sorrow
At least there will be plenty implied - If you caught pneumonia and died
I really can't stay - Get over that old out
Ahh, but it's cold outside

Brr it's cold...
It's cold out there
Can't you stay awhile longer baby
Well... I really shouldn't... Alright

Make it worth your while baby
Ahh, do that again...

[cwydro]

8. Wow. I never knew the words!

That IS kinda creepy!

I still like the song though.

[ProfessorGAC]

223. My Wife and I Concur

We always thought the song was kind of creepy.

[Merlot]

27. "Say, what's in this drink -" says it all.

There is a youtube video of this song where they act out all the lines, including wolf slipping something into mouse's drink. Shows just how creepy this song is.

[obamanut2012]

80. This -- people excusing this just do not get rape culture

That, and the eternal wearing down of a woman's defenses who just wants to go home.

[regnaD kciN]

137. The YouTube video is adding subtext that wasn't there...

...at the time this song was written, modern-day "date rape" drugs weren't around. At the same time, it was a convention in society to loudly announce that you were being affected by the alcohol you were consuming, as a pre-emptive excuse for doing what you wanted to do anyway.

[Merlot]

146. Slipping something in someone's drink has been around since

almost as long as there have been drinks.

[Squinch]

203. The phrase "slipped a mickey" was well worn by the 40s.

And you are implying that, in that time, a woman saying no meant yes. Which you shouldn't.

[Tikki]

66. Line 19..."The answer is no"

Should have ended right there.


Tikki

[yardwork]

73. Reading all the lyrics, it's clear to me that this is not really coercion.

The woman clearly does want to stay. She's joking about what her prudish family will think.

I can understand why people don't like the song, but now that I see all the lyrics I don't think it's creepy.

[SoCalDem]

95. Just "old-style seduction"

If you watch just about ANY old B&W movie 1960 & before, you'll be appalled at the "current day" sexism..

it's odd too because the censors watched things like a hawk back then regarding kissing/bedtime settings..perhaps THAT'S why lyrics/lines were more overtly sexy..

[bitterross]

108. Thank you. People totally over-react to the song. It's whimsical, not creepy.

I'm not at all excusing rape-culture, or the sexism of the 40's and 50's when this song came out.

I'm also not going to read into the lyrics of a 40's song someone putting a roofie into a drink. That's plain ridiculous. Especially if you try just reading the song for the whimsical value that was intended. As you point out there is not a real power struggle in the song. It's about mutual flirtation and trying to pretend to be prim and proper.

I first heard this song watching the movie "Netpune's Daughter." The scene in which it was sung was quite funny. It was sort of split-screen. On one side of things you had a male character trying to seduce a female character. On the other side you had a female character trying to seduce a male character. It worked beautifully as comedy in the movie.

If you want to view everything in life as a threat and evil then that is exactly what you'll see. Try viewing it more in the way it was intended and not in the way people try to see everything as having a dark undertone these days.

LIGHTEN THE FUCK UP PEOPLE!

[thucythucy]

129. Here's a "whimsical" video to go along with the song:

[Charlotte Little]

139. Yup

Yup
Yup
Yup
Yup

[bitterross]

144. You cleary didn't read, or chose to ignore my post.

I reject the thought that a 40's song is about roofies and, as I said. If all you want to see in the world is evil and bad, then that is what you will see. That video is a modern-day video made through the lens of today. Not at all through the lens of the time in which the song was written.

You cannot look at it through the lens of today. For example, meanings of words change over time. When that song was written the word "gay" still ONLY meant "lighthearted and carefree." It was decades away from taking on the additional meaning of homosexual. It is wrong to view everything through a lens of today and ascribe bad motives based on that.

It is being ignorant and obtuse to say that song meant the same thing in the 40's when it was written as it would if it were written today.

[thucythucy]

166. I read it, and don't agree.

Yeah, the roofies bit in this parody is a modernism, but getting women intoxicated in order to cajole or coerce them into sex is a time honored tradition of rape culture, the most pithy statement of which was offered by Ogden Nash:

Candy is dandy
but liquor is quicker.

You don't need pills to spike a woman's drink. Even today, frats use grain alcohol to achieve the same ends as roofies. She asks "What's in this drink?"--meaning, obviously, he put something in it without her knowledge. You don't think that's even a little creepy? Is this the sort of thing you'd be proud to know your grandfather did to get laid?

"You cannot look at it through the lens of today."

Sez who? I'm supposed to give a pass to treatises justifying slavery or racism because they were written at a time when slavery was widespread? I'm supposed to overlook--as one example--the anti-Semitism in Ezra Pound's work because anti-Semitism was all the rage among intellectuals in the 1920s?

And I'm not at all convinced that contemporary listeners--many of them anyway--didn't understand on some level what was happening in this song. The fact that it's pretty much played for laughs only makes it that much more offensive.

[Roland99]

138. I describe it as coy and flirtatious

[enough]

142. I agree. The resistance here is exactly what you say.

The idea that one partner feeling ambivalence means that the other partner is coercing or creepy is unrealistic.

For disclosure, I’m a woman in my 70s and have known this song for a very long time, so maybe the response to the tone of the lyrics is generational.

[yardwork]

156. I'm in my late 50s. I think that younger folks may not understand the context.

It's not that date rape or coercion is ever ok. It's just that I don't think the song is about that.

It's clear that the woman in the song wants to stay.

[betsuni]

162. I'm the same age and agree.

[treestar]

102. She wants to stay but her reputation will suffer

It's in the 40s or 50s when it wasn't like it is now. It's really about the societal restrictions back then. Today there are no such restrictions, so people don't get it and take it literally.

[Charlotte Little]

140. Yes and no

The entire subject in this thread and article is how a radio station yanked it because of the new MeToo movement. Their listeners voted for it to be removed from the play list. So, topically speaking, it isn't that folks don't "get it," it's that they do get it in relation to the (cough) Bill Cosby's of the world and era we're in.

In Shakespeare's time, Taming of the Shrew wasn't likely controversial. Today, however, I can see where it might turn off some women and men. It doesn't mean it shouldn't be performed, but if a theatre company decides it's too antiquated given the modern times and that its core premise could be considered sexist, then they might pull it from their repertoire. It's all relevant to perception at any given time.

[crazycatlady]

213. "Taming of the Shrew" was modernized in the 90s

It is the baseline for the teen movie "10 Things I Hate About You"

Granted I haven't seen this movie in awhile (I'll see if it is on Netflix) but the modern concepts are prom instead of marriage. Old things can be modernized if the context is.

[Charlotte Little]

214. Agreed

Which is why folks don't like the song in our modern era. Because when you modernize it, the roofie reference is clearly there. Whereas, in the 40s/50s, the line "hey, what's in this drink" is simply referring to a strong adult beverage. Anyway, here is the song as original and with roles reversed.

[thucythucy]

167. To me this sounds like the old "They say 'no' but they really mean 'yes.'

You just have to wear them down (or get them drunk enough) until they give in."

The woman clearly says no, but he keeps pressing her. What does it matter that the reason she has is because she doesn't want to catch grief from her family, or wreck her reputation? Since when do women's reasons for saying "no" have to meet some male standard of validity to be taken seriously?

It's a creepy song now, and frankly I think it's always been creepy. It's just taken our society half a century to finally come to that understanding.

There are lots of instances of this sort of cultural evolution. In "Gone with the Wind" Scarlett O'Hara is raped by Rhett Butler. At the time little or nothing was made of this by the critics. Now I defy any non-misogynist to watch that scene without cringing. The point is--that scene was always cringe worthy. That people then (and many now) don't see it as so is a reflection on how our society so often flat out refuses to see rape for what it is: rape.

[treestar]

182. That is where the whole issue of "no means yes" comes from

Nowadays it would mean "no." But in the 40s or 50s it might be more of I "I have to say no to meet society's expectations and avoid becoming a pariah and unmarriageable" than truly not wanting to. Since today, a woman can do what she wants without all that penalty, saying "no" means she does not want to.

This is a good thing but does not mean that the 40s song meant exactly what the same thing would mean in 2018.

[SMC22307]

188. "Say, lend me your comb" -- she couldn't head back home with mussed-up sex hair.

"Don't you see" … "There's bound to be talk tomorrow". She's conflicted. She wanted to stay, but knows tongues will be wagging.

There's a tweet out there somewhere about a 1930s film in which the "say, what's in this drink" line was used by a woman who really wanted to stay and play and this song is supposedly a riff on that.

I absolutely support #metoo but think they've gone a bit overboard with this song. But at least it's gotten people talking...

[edhopper]

6. Key and Peele sis a skit about this

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/btjecx/key-and-peele-just-stay-for-the-night

<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><iframe src="//media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:arc:video:comedycentral.com:b9d6a229-024b-4ab8-91ad-298469e31260" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true"></iframe></div></div>

[Salviati]

42. That take on it is pretty great.

I do like the Zach Braff and Donald Faison version of it, even though they play it straight... so to speak.

There's also this take on it, that I just recently saw, also pretty amusing:

[Charlotte Little]

97. I did not see that coming

which is strange since I'm well acquainted with K&P.

[democratisphere]

7. Like everything American, it is always taken to the absurd and extreme!

Give me a f'ing break!

[Roland99]

17. I concur

It’s a bit coy maybe. It’s courting

[hueymahl]

227. I was beginning to think I was the only one on this site who has a little perspective

Nothing wrong with this song. Simply a product of its time and social norms.

People upset with it are looking for a reason to be offended, IMHO.

[The Mouth]

256. The fact that anyone could find anything wrong with this song

is absolutely ridiculous.

Just shaking my head......

[luvs2sing]

10. I never thought about this song until..

a choir I sang with was rehearsing it. I am a woman who sings tenor, so I was rehearsing the male part. As I sang those words, I got totally creeped out. I’ve referred to it as The Date Rape Song ever since.

[Merlot]

32. That's what I call it as well - the date rape song

Which is scoffed at, usually by men.

[BannonsLiver]

12. I feel the same about Grandma Got Run Over by A REindeer

The song features a drunken, drugged up grandmotherly figure staggering out into the cold only to be trampled to death by a reindeer. To make matters worse, her husband (grandpa) marks her death, on Christmas no less, by watching football and drinking beer. If that’s not patriarchy I don’t know what is.

[cwydro]

24. Lol!

Well done!

[LanternWaste]

53. Whataboutism is a great way to rationalize our preferences.

Even if we're forced to argue against a point no one else is making to do it.

[BumRushDaShow]

63. Now THAT one is pretty rough! I agree with you!

(IMHO the OP song is essentially 2 people who have been dating and enjoy each other's company but one is trying to conform to the strict societal expectations of 2 apparently "unmarried" people and the other is trying to be more "adventuresome" in the courting).

lol, the song is playing right now on SiriusXM "Holiday Traditions" channel 3 while I type this (the Sammy Davis/Carmen McCrae version).

[Charlotte Little]

99. I don't think the reindeer

had it's way with Grandma though. Now, that would have been offensive.

(In all seriousness, I hate this song because it's just stupid.)

[BannonsLiver]

118. No, but grandpa surely did

And for him not to have two fucks to give over grandma’s untimely and tragic demise is really shitty.

[hueymahl]

228. Is there no place for dark humor in society anymore?

I guess not, based on the responses on this topic so far.

[BannonsLiver]

230. All of my responses here have been dripping with sarcasm

I think the freak out over this song 74 years later is the height of idiocy. I chose Grandma got run over to lampoon the stupidity of the controversy. I had another one about Rudolf and his red nose later on in the thread responding to some silly, pseudo intellectual rant about another song.

[hueymahl]

232. Agreed

My sarcasm meter is apparently not working today!

[crazycatlady]

13. I've always called "Baby It's Cold Outside" the date rape song

[Dr Hobbitstein]

29. Baby It's Rape Outside. nt

[obamanut2012]

81. +1

[loyalsister]

225. Yep

As I've read responses, I have been wondering if folks think me too was a response to a recent development. Date rape was buried and enabled in scenes and songs like this the same way domestic abuse was when romantic films included face slaps.

[thucythucy]

14. "Say, what's in this drink?"

Among the creepier lines in a very creepy song.

[VMA131Marine]

38. Well it wouldn't be much of a song

If the guy immediately agreed to walk the woman home in the snow to make sure she got there safely.

[cally]

59. AFTER the line "what's in this drink?"

N/t

[brooklynite]

16. How about...

[LanternWaste]

94. Or you could tell us it took place in Mexico and has nothing to do with anything.

Or you could tell us it took place in Mexico and has nothing to do with anything.

"Making up things isn't helpful..."
You simply cannot perceive the irony of that, yes?

[Glorfindel]

19. What a shame. I love the song, especially this version

[hueymahl]

229. My favorite version also

Love her.

[MineralMan]

20. It's a good thing that it is finally being recognized for what it is.

It's a classic seduction ploy, set to music. It's the old "wear her down" strategy. Whine until she gives up and gives in.

It's also very old-fashioned, really. I've heard it hundreds of times over the years. I remember thinking, a long time ago, "Would that really work?" My conclusion was that it really wouldn't, in most cases. It would only work if the person being seduced really wanted to be seduced, but was on the fence about it.

Begging for sex never seemed to me to be a good idea. Either the person you're with is eager for the relationship to go in that direction, or what's the point? That kind of seduction attempt is really weak and sad. It's a sign of someone who can't develop a relationship that naturally leads to a mutual desire for intimacy.

Should the song be taken off the air? I don't know. As an example of a pathetic and clumsy attempt to convince someone, it's educational, perhaps. In any case, I think its popularity as a Christmas song has run its course.

[lark]

22. When I was younger and more radical and dogmatic I super disliked this song.

For years Christmas meant nothing to me and I actively disliked this song, thought he was too pushy. Later, after our children were born, when we moved back to where there was family, we embraced Christmas traditions, including Christmas songs. I then saw this as flirtatious fun. Rapists aren't nice and don't care about the person, it's all power and control & often hate for the other sex, where the singers in this song seems to genuinely care about each other.

"A chacon son gout, if I am remembering my old French lessons right. If not, I am trying to say to each their own.

[MineralMan]

26. I'd say to a young person, "This is what some people resort to."

It's so dated, really. I can imagine some guy back in the 1940s or 50s in his apartment with a woman, hoping to talk her into having sex with him. Sex was more hazardous for women back in those days, before reliable contraception was available that she could control. Even if she was inclined to get physical with the guy, it was still risky.

So, here's this sad sack, trying to wheedle himself into bed with a nice young woman and she's trying to resist the temptation to jump into the sack with him. I see the song as a story from a long time ago, really. So, it looks like, in the end, they get together, despite the concerns. I'll bet such things happened a lot.

[lark]

40. I think that's it.

It's so old fashioned, it doesn't happen like this anymore. He's trying to seduce her into staying, he's not hurting her or getting physical with her or forcing anything.

[MineralMan]

51. Well, there are some men who still think that way, I'm sure.

I'm an old geezer at 73, but I never remember trying to "talk someone into" sex. Either the other person was into it or she wasn't. I was a teenager before there was readily available contraception. A lot of us were sexually active, but it wasn't like that at all. Instead, discussions happened about avoiding the risk of pregnancy. Even in high school. Sex was fun, but it was risky. We did it anyhow, but cautiously and carefully.

Maybe I was an exception, but there was no way I was going to try to talk someone into having sex. There really wasn't any need to do that, anyhow.

[treestar]

106. Does the song show he is trying to get her into bed?

Or just to stay longer? Back then no one would have seen that, or the song would have been censored back then.

[MineralMan]

114. Of course he is.

[treestar]

181. are you sure it would have been interpreted that way back then

in the 40s or 50s, that song would not have been played.

I recall a song with "do you want to go to bed with me" in French being scandalous and removed from the air. It was the 70s.

[MineralMan]

183. I can assure you that unmarried people were having sex

in the 40s and 50s, yes.

[treestar]

206. But talking about it in public, no

I was talking about it being mentionable on the radio, which you well know it was not. And a lot later in time still was not.

[MineralMan]

208. No reference to sex was made, so it's OK.

Still, it's a seduction song. People recognized it as such, too.

[BumRushDaShow]

199. ...

Philly's own -

[treestar]

207. Thank you! I remember the name now.

Could not when I posted.

[BumRushDaShow]

210. I still have my 45 of that song.

[Madam Mossfern]

204. Love that song!

I see it's been posted - thanks

[cwydro]

25. Um...

Never mind.

[MineralMan]

31. Never mind, indeed.

Uffda!

[mitch96]

69. "Uffda!"

My most favorite Minnesota words!!!
As for the song I never really thought of it that way...
I kinda liked “Love to Love You Baby,” even my simple mind could figure it out...
m

[MineralMan]

28. "Put Out?" Did you just write that? Really?

Is that how you see it? If so, i'm very sorry for you.

[MineralMan]

37. No, it's not just an expression. It's an attitude.

It's a really offensive attitude. You might want to think about losing that particular attitude. The 50s are over.

[cwydro]

41. I don't think you even realize the point you DID make, quite accidentally.

As another said, wow.

[cwydro]

57. Well, I'm a gay woman, so, um, no.

But sadly, you don’t realize how offensive your statement was.

[cwydro]

47. An expression used? By whom?

Frat boys? Middle schoolers?

God, still can’t believe I read this here.

[Chemisse]

70. I didn't know anybody even used that term anymore.

Except maybe men like Kavenaugh, who see sex is such brutish terms.

[Cal Carpenter]

48. Actually the point you were trying to make was overall offensive,

not just the particular phrase of 'putting out'.

Just to be clear.

FFS.

[cwydro]

36. Thank you MM; I stopped myself before I said what thought.

Unbelievable.

[MineralMan]

45. That expression is sort of the epitome of an excess of male privilege.

Women "put out." They don't enthusiastically participate in sex. They "put out," as though they're bestowing some favor on someone. They don't really want to have sex, but they might "put out" if you whine long enough.

It's an overwhelmingly disrespectful and biased expression. I thought it had passed out of use long ago. I guess not.

[cwydro]

49. Exactly. Used by frat boys and middle schoolers.

And probably donald trump.

[MineralMan]

52. Nah. Donald Trump just waved money around.

Some people will do almost anything if there's enough money involved. He's a slimeball.

[cwydro]

54. True dat.

Still, it sounds like something the slimeball would say.

[crazycatlady]

68. Including Melania

[Charlotte Little]

105. My mother has told me her story about almost being date-raped many times

When she was sixteen, she accepted a ride home from a senior in her high school, one who was friends with her brother, so she trusted him. He then drove her to a farm field and attempted to tear her panties off to rape her. The words she told me he used were "Put out or get out and walk home."

She not only stopped him from raping her but got him to drive her home when she reminded him, "My daddy owns a shotgun and trust me, he'll use it on you if you don't stop and take me home." She said her father was known for being mean and protective of his five daughters, so her words worked.

But I've never forgotten that "Put out..." Like she owed him sex for a ride home. That was back in the 1940/50s, right around the time this song came out, I believe. My mother is 80 and still just as assertive and feisty. I never met my grandfather though. He died before I was born.

Anyway, I hate that expression. It's filthier than a lot of curse words are nowadays, simple because of it's nefarious connotation.

[MineralMan]

115. It's a terrible expression.

I've always hated it.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

30. Wow. nt

[RhodeIslandOne]

35. It's not even a Christmas song

Never understood the connection other than it’s cold and wintertime.

[MineralMan]

39. Well, not directly. But, it's been used as one for a long, long time.

I don't think I've ever heard it outside of the Christmas season.

[Chemisse]

72. It seems that any and all songs related to the winter season are labeled as Christmas songs.

It's sad you can't even sing Frosty the Snowman during a blizzard in February!

[MineralMan]

74. I like to think of them as Winter Holiday Songs

Kind of like the Winter Holiday Tree sitting in these atheists' home in front of the picture window. We put up Winter Holiday decorations on Thanksgiving Day and take them down on January 1. Whatever holidays fit into that time period, our decorations celebrate.

[crazycatlady]

96. neither is "My Favorite Things"

It's a showtune about being distracted from Nazis. I never understood why people see this as a Christmas song.

[customerserviceguy]

109. And you notice

They don't play "Frosty the Snowman" after Christmas, even though it doesn't mention anything about Christmas.

[whistler162]

158. As a song written by a man

that he and his wife could sing at parties? It has been known for a long time!

[violetpastille]

21. This song... I want to do an angry punk version

[JenniferJuniper]

33. Oh, that's awful

[Auggie]

43. Much worse

[violetpastille]

44. "I'm warning yoooooo!" n/t

[The Genealogist]

55. I like the music itself, but the lyrics are shameful and disgusting

[tandem5]

113. The meter is definitely there and I would like to hear that angry punk version

[TeamPooka]

56. SNL did a version of this song a few years ago that picks up the next morning

https://view.yahoo.com/show/saturday-night-live/clip/60318755/baby-it-s-cold-outside

[MineralMan]

75. Now that's funny!

[smirkymonkey]

89. That was great!

[Loki Liesmith]

58. Oh god

[lapfog_1]

60. for good measure they shouldn't play this one either

Santa baby, slip a sable under the tree for me
Been an awful good girl
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight
Santa baby, a '54 convertible too convertible too, light blue
I'll wait up for you, dear
Santa baby, so hurry down the chimney tonight
Think of all the fun I've missed
Think of all the fellas that I haven't kissed
Next year I could be also good
If you'll check off my Christmas list
Santa baby, I want a yacht and really that's not a lot
Been an angel all year
Santa baby, so hurry down the chimney tonight
Santa honey one thing I really do need, the deed
To a platinum mine
Santa baby, so hurry down the chimney tonight
Santa cutie, and fill my stocking with a duplex and checks
Sign your 'x' on the line
Santa cutie,…

[liberalmuse]

67. This song is cute, not creepy.

No one is trying to Cosby a woman. It’s disturbing that some people don’t get it.

[lapfog_1]

76. it's a song that glorifies golddiggers

"Think of all the fellas that I haven't kissed
Next year I could be also good
If you'll check off my Christmas list
Santa baby, I want a yacht and really that's not a lot
Been an angel all year
Santa baby, so hurry down the chimney tonight
Santa honey one thing I really do need, the deed
To a platinum mine "

literally, she will trade "being good all year and not kissing the other fellas" if "Santa" gifts her a platinum mine.

nothing creepy or wrong about that at all...

[obamanut2012]

83. There is no such thing as a golddigger

Unless you are into dated and offensive gendered slurs and attitudes.

[crazycatlady]

86. what would you call Melania Trump?

[obamanut2012]

82. Yup

[misanthrope]

110. Can't stand that song

I find its crass materialism in the face of a tradition ostensibly steeped in altruism and philanthropy to be highly offensive. It is everything wrong with modern American Christmas.

[BannonsLiver]

121. another infuriating Christmas song

Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer. Here we have man’s abuse and systematic enslavement of animals to enrich themselves and in this case to lavish material gifts upon bourgeoisie children the world over. Could not be more revolting.

[whistler162]

157. Also that Rudolf obviously had

a major drinking problem!

[hueymahl]

231. I can't tell if you are trying to be funny

or not?

[BannonsLiver]

233. Not even remotely serious.

[Polybius]

212. Off-topic but I like Gwen's version better than Marilyn's

I know this won't be popular.

[Mike Nelson]

61. Hmmm...

… I did not know this was a Christmas song! … I never hear it on the radio! … the bit about what's in this drink is creepy... I did look at youtube and found a clip. It sounded like the woman wanted to stay - like they were "playing cat and mouse." but I can see how the words could be sung in a bad way...

[cally]

64. I just tried to listen to it from article

And I literally got a sick feeling. That’s date rape. All of the defenders in this thread bother me. It’s a so called innocuous song accepting date rape after the woman says no innumerable times in the song. How can anyone think this is a good song?

[BannonsLiver]

71. Probably because it's a 70 year old Christmas song

You know what’s really creepy? Where people’s minds go with just a little bit of prodding. That’s creepy.

[wasupaloopa]

77. Your opinion of it is for you not for me.

I don’t see why some people have to think for everyone else.

[obamanut2012]

84. Exactly -- the old badgering and wearing her down and getting her drunk

At best, or maybe even slipping something else in her drink as per the lyrics.

[liberalmuse]

65. I put classic Christmas on Pandora.

Every time this song comes on I think of it as the Christmas date rape song. I’d never listened to the words before a couple years ago, but they are definitely creepy, and not at all romantic, especially if you’re a woman.

This is a good take on it.
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/btjecx/key-and-peele-just-stay-for-the-night

[X_Digger]

78. Oh for fuck's sake. Presentism at its worst. n/t

[obamanut2012]

85. wrong

[obamanut2012]

79. Good -- I thought it was sketchy AF when I was a kid

And, decades later, even more so.

Again, it was written as Wolf (man) and Mouse (woman) -- dangerous predator and timid prey.

And, for anyone saying this is ridiculous, get over yourself. This is literally what rape culture is, and your saying that is literally enabling rape culture.

[Stare Decisis]

130. It has undertones of

coercion. Reading the lyrics I don't find context of the relationship so that is concerning. I think if there was a clearer declaration of the relationship it would be less squirm inducing. "Say what's in this drink," is certainly a jarring line. I don't think it depicts an equal partnership in the pursuit of passion, and this has always been unacceptable.

[IADEMO2004]

87. Two versions with Gender reversal Neptune's Daughter 1949 musical romantic comedy

[Hekate]

88. Oh FFS. It's a song of playful, mutual, seduction. For grown-ups.

Not everything sexual is about rape.

[BumRushDaShow]

92. That's what I always thought of it as

never considered it was supposed to go any further than the playful back and forth.

(and once again, SiriusXM is playing another version - Jo Stafford version )

[BannonsLiver]

119. That's probably because you're a normal, functioning adult with critical reasoning skills.

The creepiest thing in this thread isn’t the song, it’s where people’s minds go with just a little bit of prodding.

[BumRushDaShow]

122. I think part of the problem

is generational.

My mom would have been 88 this year and my dad 94 and their generation was a generation of smokers and drinkers - and particularly cocktails were an "in thing". My mother used to drink martinis (with gin and vermouth) and I think my dad would get a scotch and soda or bourbon. When I was a kid I remember seeing little metal cylinders in the buffet and eventually found out they were little CO2 canisters for what I just learned 2 minutes ago, were for a soda siphon (I just don't recall seeing what they went into).

So in the song, when you have the banter about a "drink", we're not talking about a Mountain Dew or Starbucks expresso. And in the lingo of the time, if you wanted wine, you said "glass of wine", but for a "drink", in many cases, it was one of the popular mixed drinks/cocktails like the martinis (including with vodka instead of gin) or Manhattans (with whiskey and vermouth, etc).

Therefore, the "what's in this drink?" shouldn't be assumed to mean someone "slipped a mickey" in it. Just based on my parents and their siblings and friends of that age, it could easily have meant that whatever "cocktail" was made was not something "usual" or expected.... which itself might be a valid thing for concern itself but I digress...

IMHO, that type of "drugging" thing didn't really got going until the crazy qualuudes '60s (of Bill Cosby fame) and onward to the current time with ecstasy, etc., but not so much 70-some years ago.

[misanthrope]

160. Agreed when viewed in historical context

In those days, cocktails were myriad and proliferate, a downstream product of the Prohibition era. The question "what's in this drink" in context of the song's era was about what specific mixture of alcoholic libations and other ingredients were contained therein, not about a "mickey."

[betsuni]

161. Yes, anyone who watches old movies would picture the scene with cocktails.

And cigarettes. And witty banter.

[crazycatlady]

120. one line tells me it is not seduction

"Say what's in this drink"

It tells me that he slipped something in her drink.

[Hekate]

123. Scotch and soda, mud in your eye, Baby do I feel high oh me oh my. Dry martini, jigger of gin...

...Oh what a spell you've got me in... People won't believe me, they'll think that I'm just braggin', but I could feel the way I do, and still be in the wagon...

~~~~~~

Cole Porter chimes in... Wonder what was put in his drink?


My story is much too sad to be told
But practically everything
Leaves me totally cold
The only exception I know is the case
When I'm out on a quiet spree
Fighting vainly the old ennui
And I suddenly turn and see
Your fabulous face

I get no kick from Champagne
Mere alchohol doesn't thrill me at all
So tell me why should it be true
That I get a kick
Out of you

Some get a kick from cocaine
I'm sure that if I took even one sniff
That would bore me terrifically too
Yet I get a kick out of you

I get a kick every time I see you standing there before me
I get a kick though its clear to me you obviously don't
Adore me

I get no kick in a plane
Flying too high
With some guy in the sky is my idea of nothing to do

Yet I get a kick
Out of you

[yardwork]

164. I don't think that's what that line means.

The phrase "what's in this drink?" used to be a reference to how strong an alcoholic beverage was, not necessarily something slipped in the drink. The woman is "blaming" the strength of the drink for doing what she clearly wants to do anyway.

I honestly don't think that this is a song about coercion or date rape. It's a song about two people who want to get it on. The woman's reluctance stems from worries about her reputation. It's an archaic concept in today's world.

This song doesn't translate well today. I think it's really archaic at this point.

[zipplewrath]

234. It's a song borne out of old sterotypes

If you go to the music of that day, not to mention movies, they couldn't be explicit, and so there was alot of innuendo. Everything you're hearing in that song would have been well understood at the time, and no one would have seen it as having anything to do with date rape. What you ARE hearing is that she had to be concerned about her reputation and HE did not. Women were simultaneously the defenders of virtue, and strangely the "root of all evil". Look at almost any musical from 1940's to the 60s, and in one way or another, the female lead is the creator of conflict, whether intentional or not.

The reason some today hear "creepy" is because the social norms of that day were, well, creepy.

[yardwork]

249. That's very well said. That's it exactly.

The creepiness lies in the double standard and the ways in which women were expected to behave like children, needing others' permission to do what they wanted. The entire premise of the song infantilizes the woman. She and her paramour are seeking excuses for her to stay (the weather!) instead of just making a decision about what they want, as adults.

That's what's creepy. It was totally standard at the time.

[zipplewrath]

250. In some ways

It becomes a challenge to see today, what our children will seen in a generation or three that will make them "creepy" by our social norms.

[crazycatlady]

147. tampering with a drink is not mutual

Maybe to Brett Kavanaugh, but not to anyone who is sane

[Ilsa]

190. It perpetuates that saying "no" means "yes",

and that all women "really want it" even if they don't, regardless of whether the woman in the song wanted to be seduced.

Sometimes songs go out of style as cultures evolve.

[hueymahl]

235. Wow, just wow

I guess people will hear what they want to hear.

[Ilsa]

248. Oh please.

I could say the same about anyone thinking it's perfectly innocent.

[smirkymonkey]

90. I have to say, I am a bit torn.

Musically I have always liked this song and I see it as a traditional Christmas/winter song. I never really read into the lyrics too much, although if I do, I would admit they are kind of creepy.

On the other hand, the way the lyrics are sung seems kind of flirtatious and playful. I don't know, maybe it seems more innocent to me because it was written over 70 years ago. I consider myself a feminist, but this song is not something that is something that is particularly worrisome to me.

[llmart]

93. Yes, I feel the same way.

Maybe one's take on the song depends on how old you are. I have seen some classic black and white movies that have scenes and themes that are a whole lot worse than the lyrics of this song and yet many, many people love to watch the old movies. It was a different time, and taking something out of context and plunking it down in the year 2018 and analyzing it to death sometimes ends up with people saying we're taking political correctness too far.

The other night they were showing "Roots" on TV. They used the "n" word a couple of times. Should the TV station not show that movie any longer?

I don't know.

[misanthrope]

111. Are you asking whether we should remove the rough edges from white supremacy?

Wouldn't that be a disservice to those who suffered under it and a pampering of those who benefited from it? Shouldn't the actual brutality and psychological tactics be front and center?

[thucythucy]

132. "Maybe one's take on the song depends on how old you are."

Or, possibly, one whether one has been the victim of rape or attempted rape?

The use of the n word in "Roots" was to accurately depend the realities of racism and slavery.

You're saying we should use this song as a demonstration of the prevalence of rape culture? I'd agree. Use it in a depiction of the prevalence and acceptance of date rape in our culture, then and now. But not as cheerful, whimsical holiday bliss.

[SoCalDem]

98. and if you put yourself INTO the era

and take the man(of that era)'s side, probably not many young women showed up at a man's apartment.. I would guess that in that circumstance, a guy might think she wanted to be talked into staying..

Most young women of that era lived at home with Mom & Dad and family, and most were not bold enough to show up at a guy's apartment..

It was a repressive era, and music of that day was just getting started on moving past "moon & croon" & romantic schmaltz ...and onto a more "vivid" depiction of what was really on the minds of many young folks ..

[Hekate]

91. Are we banning "Let It Snow" as well?

Oh the fire is slowly dying
And my dear we're still Goodby-ing

[Mariana]

101. The song hasn't been banned at all.

One radio station has decided not to play it, but several versions of it are available for you to play at home or in your car whenever you wish to hear it.

[kydo]

104. Maybe. Looks like Rudolf is on the out too.

Santa does kind of come off as a jerk.... But at least you can say merry xmas now or whatever... Total sarcasm. Will even include the tag.

True story however. Was at the vet's office for my dog's annual checkup the other day. At the end, the vet says, Happy Holidays." To which I replied, "Happy Holidays to you too." She smiled a big grin then left. As did I. Nothing bad happened or nothing. It was so nice.

[Demovictory9]

107. no coercion in that song

[Demovictory9]

103. SNL (or other comedy shows) did a version of the song, I think Christopher Walkens played the role

it was creepy

[tandem5]

112. That's it! I've taken the movie Elf off the Netflix shelf...

and put Will Ferrell and Zooey Deschanel on probation! (sarcasm) I've always been aware of the not-so-subtle message in the song, but isn't that more than half the battle -- awareness? We put things in perspective. We shouldn't apologize for an earlier era, but we shouldn't erase the historical context either. We can't whitewash culture on an artificial schedule and declare that the time we're living in exists in a vacuum. We are the products of our history both good and bad and awareness, perspective, and context are all that is required to grow as a society. No matter the intention we can't be like Holocaust deniers or the little-old-ladies of the South that erected romanticized statues and banned books not because they perpetuated a hatred and bigotry that no longer exists, but because they accurately depicted a history that they would rather forget.

[budkin]

116. It's not even a Christmas song. Why, because "cold?"

Same thing with "My Favorite Things." It has nothing to do with Christmas or the Holidays.

[lillypaddle]

117. Well, that is ridiculous

and it just sucks.

[Hekate]

124. Celebrating the return of American Puritanism, right on schedule.

Things that make it hard to take us seriously. And, by the way, cost us one of our best Senators.

[llmart]

133. Great statement and I agree 100%.

Much ado about nothing.

[Raine]

136. Totally agree nt

[hueymahl]

236. Great comment

Pretty much sums it up for me.

Some people are looking to be offended. Even worse, some people are looking to attack others over, well, pretty much anything.

[YessirAtsaFact]

125. Censorship at it's liberal finest

I used to listen to an Oldies radio station in Greenville NC and realized one day that they never played Jimi Hendrix, Jefferson Airplane and any other music from the Sixties with drug or anti-war references.

I started referring to that music the Sanitized Oldies. God forbid that station play something that would offend someone.

This is the same thing.

[Mariana]

141. Censorship?

No one is preventing you from playing the song for yourself whenever you want to hear it. You don't think the people running the radio station should get to decide which songs to play on it?

[BannonsLiver]

172. They're getting crucified on Twitter

I’ve enjoyed reading the tweets quite a bit.

[Mariana]

193. Good.

It's still up to the station to choose what to air. It's a lie to say they're engaging in "censorship" when they do so.

[BannonsLiver]

200. Technically it is

They are censoring content for their listeners. When a minority of listeners bully, cajole and threaten a media entity into not exhibiting content that is in fact censorship. Different than govt. censorship, but censorship nonetheless.

[haele]

126. I always heard it as the lady looking for a reason to stay...

When that song was written, a "lady" was never supposed to agree to anything that might be "scandalous", even if she wanted to spend the night. The woman was always supposed to play hard to get. That "say, what's in this drink?" line could even be taken several ways, especially with some of the other lines the "pursued" singer has, suggesting she doesn't want to leave, even though she's expected to due to her social station.

Now days, that sort of make your desires the other party's responsibility is rightly frowned on, but at the time the song was written, it was "playful flirting".
Heck, the assumption in the "rom-com" universe this song existed in would be that they would get married and live happily ever after in their Fifth Avenue apartment.

Haele

[enough]

143. Yes. NT

[hueymahl]

237. Exactly!

Perspective people!!!

[nini]

128. It's a dumb song typical of its time

It was supposed to be funny/cutesy. We are so beyond that stuff now it would never be written today. It's mainly just an annoying stupid song to me.


A lot of things wouldn't be made this day and age that were back then.

[Guppy]

134. I don't think this a a date rape song

I do think it was from an earlier time. There were no roofies or qualudes. I do think people need to lighten up. I remember one great saying that I think has a bit of relevance to some. 'If your folding your clothes before sex you doing it all wrong'. This is just a playful encounter.

[NotASurfer]

149. Now I can't get the song out of my head

Don't think the History Eraser Button is an option here

[Oneironaut]

150. This and "Santa Baby" - Please die

[doc03]

151. Buy it's OK to say the "F" word the "N" word and a hundred other

trash talk words in todays so called music.

[flying_wahini]

152. Jeez, I think people need to relax! It's just an old song from another day.

Big damn deal. If you don't like it change the channel. Some of us oldies still like it.

[D_Master81]

154. noticed the lyrics a few yrs ago

I'm a younger person and really had never listened to this song too closely until a few years ago and was like "damn this song is creepy". Not to mention the guy was totally freind zoned. I dont really care for the song so i dont care.

[hueymahl]

238. Your youth at least explains why you are confused

This song was from a different generation. Interpreted without the context of the day I can see your point.

But there are a lot of people on this thread just looking for a reason to be offended.

BTW, the guy was definitely not "friend zoned". Such a concept did not exist. A "Lady" of that era, with the cocktail parties, cigarettes, courting and sex, was not supposed to immediately say yes, even if she did want to stay. Nothing creepy about it - old fashioned, definitely, but not creepy.

[whistler162]

155. Gotta remember to ban those

books by Mark Twain because of the words used!

[oberliner]

159. Check out the lyrics to Mo Bamba

Number 7 on the Billboard charts right now.

[betsuni]

163. How about the song describing the traumatic experience of a kid seeing mommy kissing Santa Claus?

Who knows how many years of therapy it took that kid to get over Santa issues. Better pull that one, too.

[BumRushDaShow]

169. Ha! First thing I though about last night.

A kid thinking his mom was cheating on his father by "kissing" and "touching" Santa Claus.

But what is "worse" is this one (written in 1945) -

Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!

Oh, the weather outside is frightful
But the fire is so delightful
And since we've no place to go
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow

Man it doesn't show signs of stoppin'
And I brought some corn for poppin'
The lights are turned way down low
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow

When we finally kiss good-night
How I'll hate going out in the storm
But if you really hold me tight
All the way home I'll be warm

And the fire is slowly dying
And, my dear, we're still good-bye-ing
But as long as you love me so
Let it snow, let it snow, and snow

When we finally kiss good-night
How I'll hate going out in the storm
But if you really grab me tight
All the way home I'll be warm

Oh the fire is slowly dying
And, my dear, we're still good-bye-ing
But as long as you love me so
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow

And god forbid this 1934 atrocity!!11!!! -

Winter Wonderland

Sleigh bells ring, are you listening
In the lane, snow is glistening
A beautiful sight
We're happy tonight
Walking in a winter wonderland

Gone away is the bluebird
Here to stay is a new bird
He sings a love song
As we go along
Walking in a winter wonderland

In the meadow we can build a snowman
Then pretend that he is Parson Brown
He'll say, Are you married?
We'll say, No man
But you can do the job
When you're in town

Later on, we'll conspire
As we dream by the fire
To face unafraid
The plans that we've made
Walking in a winter wonderland

In the meadow we can build a snowman
And pretend that he's a circus clown
We'll have lots of fun with mister snowman
Until the other kids knock him down

When it snows, ain't it thrilling
Though your nose gets a chilling
We'll frolic and play, the Eskimo way
Walking in a winter wonderland

Walking in a winter wonderland
Walking in a winter wonderland

[betsuni]

171. These Christmas songs are totally about fucking!

[BumRushDaShow]

173. ...

[blitzen]

165. Well, I guess that means we won't be hearing any more Conway Twitty...

[samnsara]

176. some olddies i grew up with Arthur Godfrew's - 'Slap Her Down Again Paw'...and

...'He Hit Me ( and it felt like a kiss)'...The first one was on an on 78 rpm the second one I discovered on Mad Men. Google both for lyrics and history.

[Ilsa]

191. And no one sings that anymore.

Culture has decided that violence, especially against women and children by men, is unacceptable.

Good riddance to crappy songs.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

178. In this case, the song was used as a prelude to a proposal.

I thought it was sweet, but what do I know? For years I believed the Beatles' "Norweigan Wood" was about a furniture maker in the Far North.

[Captain Stern]

179. Too bad, but it's certainly not a really big deal

I think it's a good song.

Nothing is gained by banning/removing/censoring it. But, plenty will be lost if it disappears.

Just here, this half-century old song has fueled discussions and arguments about date-rape, changing social norms, gender roles, and more.

That's not a bad thing at all.

[Mariana]

194. Why would it disappear?

Lots of radio stations never played this song for various reasons, and yet it's still with us.

[Captain Stern]

220. It would probably disappear if no stations ever played it.

Of course, some radio stations never played it. No radio station plays every song. Heck, some radio stations don't play any music at all.

The song is still with us because some stations still play it, not because others never have.

[crazycatlady]

240. It won't disappear

Walk into any store this time of year.

[ismnotwasm]

180. Hmm.

Wondered how this thread would go.

There are any of number of songs that could go as far as I’m concerned that would bring an even bigger uproar. I’m glad this sparked discussion.

I’m not a fan of “banning” songs —one radio station taking it off its play list isn’t that big of a deal.

This particular one a lot of fun to listen to, but is also creepy as fuck once you know the lyrics.

I call it “That rapey song” there’s a song from The Beatles I call “It’s OK The murder your girlfriend song”

[still_one]

185. What other songs, books, movies that fit in this category? Well there goes Embraceable You by

George Gershwin, suggestions of inapproporiate touching?


Censorship?


What other music, books, film etc fit into this category?


There is a very real potential that this can be like the fable, "The Little Boy Who Cried Wolf", and has the potential to damage the movement, and those who have been victims of abuse and harassment

[Mariana]

195. Exaggeration and lies can also damage the movement.

A radio station choosing not to play a particular song is not engaging in "censorship". Every station decides which content they wish to broadcast, and it is not "censorship" when they do so.

[still_one]

196. The radio station is exerting the censorship based on what they consider a business decision.

Or perhaps the radio station has other motivations to create publicity for a desired effect

[tavernier]

186. Is Santa Baby a seduction song by a gold digger?

Mommy kissing Santa Claus could be used in divorce court?

Rudolph and Santa, a story of bestiality?

I think we have jumped the shark.

[IluvPitties]

189. It's not a song about raping anybody.

[Jake Stern]

205. A tad bit hypocritical of WDOK

Last edited Sun Dec 2, 2018, 04:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Considering they play:

Blurred Lines (Robin Thicke) - A blatantly date rape song including the line "Good girl/I know you want it"

Closer (Chainsmokers) - About a drunken hook up which includes the line "No. I can't stop"

Hey Jealousy (Gin Blossoms) - Guy tries to get into an ex's bed by pretending to be too drunk to drive and needing a place to stay.

[Mariana]

244. Write to them and tell them what you think.

Maybe they'll change their minds.

[Polybius]

211. Nat King Cole's "Mrs. Santa Clause" would be next if it were more popular

Ever hear the context of that song?

Who feeds the reindeer all their hay?
Who wraps the gifts and packs the sleigh?
Who's helping Santa every day?
Mrs. Santa Claus
Who keeps his red suit looking nice?
Who does he turn to for advice?
Who gives the brownies all their spice?
Mrs. Santa Claus
She pitter-patters all around the workshop
The whole year long
Amid the happy clatter of the workshop
She sings a merry, merry Christmas song
Who reads the notes from girls and boys?
Turns in the order for their toys?
Fills every heart with wondrous joys?
Mrs. Santa Claus
She pitter-patters all around the workshop
The whole year long
Amid the happy clatter of the workshop
She sings a merry, merry Christmas song
Who reads the notes from girls and boys?
Turns in the order for their toys?
Fills every heart with wondrous joys?
Mrs. Santa Claus
Mrs. Santa Claus

[crazycatlady]

215. I don't hear that song ad nauseam at stores

[Algernon Moncrieff]

218. I call BS

"... after a listener called to say it was inappropriate amid the #MeToo movement."

Really? If I call and say I just lost a grandparent, will a station pull "Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer?" I'm thinking "no."

Radio is - by and large - run by wingnuts, so I don't see them pulling the song unless the caller was the biggest advertiser in the tri-state area. Radio is also driven by ratings. One sure ratings-getter is "contrived controversy." It was a huge thing in the 80s and 90s. For example, a popular morning host would throw shade at a popular afternoon host. People would phone in. Sides would be taken. An on-air confrontation would result in suspensions. I see this as something to draw the ire of older, more conservative listeners (since that is radio's audience now. Younger folks have moved on to the digital age), and get them to call in and demand the song be restored.

It's for ratings, IMO.

[VOX]

219. Burt Bacharach/Hal David's 1963 hit "Wives and Lovers" is horribly sexist.

I’m not big on trashing any art/performing arts deemed offensive, since it’s a very subjective thing, and opinions change over time. However, there are some clear-cut offenders that need to be called out as loudly as one would anything that’s irredeemably racist or sexist in the eyes of most people. It’s not caving in to PC to forbid whites doing minstrel shows in blackface, for example (even though a large number of Southerners would classify that as excessive PC).

The song “Wives and Lovers” is just such a relic. Recorded by numerous artists, most notably by Jack Jones; whose recording won the 1964 Grammy Award for Best Male Vocal Performance. It peaked at number 14 on the Hot 100. In its time, it was regarded as “cute”; today, it’s cringe-worthy:

Hey, little girl, comb your hair, fix your make-up
Soon he will open the door
Don't think because there's a ring on your finger
You needn't try any more

For wives should always be lovers too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
I'm warning you

Day after day, there are girls at the office
And the men will always be men
Don't stand him up with your hair still in curlers
You may not see him again

Wives should always be lovers too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
He's almost here

Hey, little girl, better wear something pretty
Something you wear to go to the city
Dim all the lights, pour the wine, start the music
Time to get ready for love
It's time to get ready for love
Yes, it's time to get ready for love
It's time to get ready, kick your shoes off, baby...

Songwriters: Burt Bacharach / Hal David
Wives and Lovers lyrics © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC

[Coventina]

224. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

Good gawd, am I glad to be living in the here and now!

[kskiska]

239. Should mistletoe be banned next?

[get the red out]

241. I never liked that song

Stupid song no matter.

[Trumpocalypse]

247. Same here

Always thought it was creepy

[northoftheborder]

242. Well, I'm old....& female.....

....older than that song; which I've always loved; never thought of it as anything but romantic. don't associate it with inappropriateness. Sorry some of you do. A lot of the modern music is disgusting, vulgar, crude, violent. I do not choose to listen to it.

[zipplewrath]

251. That's an excellent point

Considering the lyrics of some "modern" music, this is pretty "tame" by comparison. I understand what some people hear in this song, but it is vastly more associated with the tendency to innuendo that was common at the time than anything about sexual coercion.
As I suggested upstream, it would be interesting to know what our great grandchildren will think about music lyrics of our day.

[misanthrope]

254. What about this version?

Where does this rate on the creep meter?

&app=desktop

[Dr. Strange]

255. That doesn't seem so bad.

Those two singers come across as a couple of good ole boys, never meanin' no harm.