Unless you're from the South, it's hard to understand how monumental this is

[misanthrope]

Sure, there was initial disappointment at the razor-thin margins by which Republican candidates seemed to win the gubernatorial races in Georgia and Florida on Tuesday. That's perfectly understandable.

However, embers of hope have been fanned as recounts ensued. There's no guarantee either Georgia's Stacey Abrams or Florida's Andrew Gillum will emerge from the process victorious but Democrats shouldn't despair at all. They should be pretty damned happy.

The fact a pair of African Americans, one a woman, came this close to winning statewide election in the Deep South is astounding. It would have been irrational to expect a result like this as recently as 15 years ago. Unless you've spent decades in the region, it's hard to fathom or understand how deeply embedded racism is in its culture.

Maybe it's the influx of transplants, or "outsiders" as they're too often called. Maybe a culture that worships conservatism and condemns progressivism is finally leaving the past a half-century after being forced to dismantle Jim Crow. Whatever it is, these recounts would seem to indicate something primal could be changing in the South.

[comradebillyboy]

1. Change comes more slowly than we would like

[leftieNanner]

2. Good Point

Now if we could only get Justice Roberts to review that ruling gutting the Voting Rights Act, then things might improve.

Keeping up the good thoughts for Stacey and Andrew!

[greymattermom]

3. It's the new folks.

I live in Atlanta, and it's a rare thing in my neighborhood to hear a Southern accent. There are all sorts of communities around here, and the people who can't tolerate diversity are moving to the exurbs. All of the Atlanta metro area counties voted for Stacey, including Cobb. I'm a white person, a minority, in DeKalb.

[roamer65]

4. After election night, MI, NY and New England are more like Canada than the rest of the US.

I personally think we are being held back from progressing by laggards in the Union.

Ari had a good talk tonite on the obstruction of democracy on his show tonite. Def on target with it.

[dawg day]

5. If Abrams gets a run-off...

Massive GOTV time.

[greymattermom]

6. They have already recruited poll workers for Dec. 4.

The planned run off day. Now, they need to bring the Diebold machines.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

19. they need to junk the Diebold machines

Hand everybody 2 pieces of paper: one red with Kemp's name on it, one blue with Abrams' name on it. Drop your selection in the box. Count the papers.

[fierywoman]

21. Brilliant!!!

[LakeSuperiorView]

30. Seriously? One could not get more insecure than that.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

31. bold assertion without supporting evidence

Electronic devices cannot be made secure and publicly verifiable.

[flibbitygiblets]

35. +1 We know Russians have hacked us. We know it takes seconds for "test" hackers to infiltrate

voting machines and elections records

Paper ballots, period.

[LakeSuperiorView]

48. Ever hear the term "stuffing the ballot box"?

[Hermit-The-Prog]

52. ever hear "hacking" the machine?

Preventing paper stuffing is trivial -- the ballot can be handed to a poll worker in full view of anyone in the general public and representatives of each party.

You can never be certain with electronic voting devices. Electronic voting obscures the activity from both voter and the observing general public. The voter can only confirm that a change occurred in the machine. The voter cannot confirm that the vote or votes chosen are actually represented within the machine's tabulation. The public cannot confirm that the voter voted or that the machine properly tabulated that vote or votes.

[LakeSuperiorView]

54. Handing a voter two valid ballots and relying on them to securely destroy the second

is pure folly. Yes, direct mark electronic voting can be hacked and should not be employed, but the proposed method of two pieces of paper has absolutely no security whatsoever. The fact that we have developed better methods is BECAUSE balloting by lots is insecure.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

60. no reason to destroy second

Why would an unused lot need to be destroyed? As long as a poll watcher can confirm only one ballot per voter goes into the box, it doesn't matter what happens to leftovers.

"Absolutely no security whatsoever" is still a bold assertion without supporting evidence. Electronic voting machines have a long history of evidence against them, even if you don't consider it is logically impossible to have both a secure and verifiable electronic vote. (A reasonable way to use electronic devices in an election is to present the ballot to the voter in the voter's preferred language and then print a physical ballot for the voter).

Using physical tokens for voting -- marked paper is the simplest -- can be both secure and verifiable.

1. Secret ballot:
1.1. No one can assure that a vote is not associated with a voter in an electronic system.
1.2. The voter can see that a piece of paper is not marked with identifying information.

2. Verifiable vote:

2.1. No voter can see the electrons flowing in an electronic system and cannot verify that the voter's selection(s) have actually been tabulated within the system.

2.2. The voter can verify the piece of paper accurately reflects the selection(s) and that the piece of paper goes into a secured container with other voters' papers.

3. Verifiable election:

3.1. The general public (including designated poll watchers) cannot observe electronic systems preserving or counting whatever those systems have accumulated or been programmed to do. The only verification is that the device or system changes something about it, which may or may not have any real relationship to ballots, and spits out a number, which may or may not have a real relationship with the election.

3.2. The general public can observe every piece of paper going into the secure container, without knowing the selection(s) of each voter; can observe the container remaining secure throughout the process; can observe the opening of the container; and can observe and verify the counting of the vote and as many recounts as are necessary.

[LakeSuperiorView]

62. A paper ballot, marked by the voter, is far more secure.

Giving a person TWO legal ballots, and ensuring that the extras do not wind up somehow being counted is less secure. That is not a bold assertion. You have provided absolutely no security measures whatsoever for the extra legal ballots that leave the polling place.

"Hand everybody 2 pieces of paper: one red with Kemp's name on it, one blue with Abrams' name on it. Drop your selection in the box. Count the papers. "

No security. What guarantees what is in the box when it is counted is what was in it when the polls close. Hell, you haven't even outlined who "everyone" is. And now you change your tune to say print the voters ballot.

You are making the mistake of assuming I'm defending direct mark electronic balloting. I am not. That should be banned.

Your scheme is rife with opportunities for fraud, as history has proved. There are numerous reasons why that system is no longer used.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

65. you make valid, specific points

Now you've done it -- you make specific arguments againts my off-the-cuff (and snarky) suggestion that are valid. The 2 colored pieces of paper introduce problems as you point out. Neither the color nor the use of a token per candidate are necessary and therefore needlessly complicate the process.

When the process is open and transparent, the problems can be seen and fixed. Electronic voting is neither open nor transparent and cannot be fixed.

Glad we agree on banning electronic balloting!

[bullsnarfle]

69. Ok, I'll play devil's advocate...

The ballot box is next to a shredder. The ballot for their candidate of choice goes into the ballot box. The other one goes into the shredder. Right then. No more "extras".

[LakeSuperiorView]

73. That would be an acceptable alternate to a voter marked ballot.

More complicated, harder to train the voters, potential for accidents, but removes the problem of handing out extra ballots.

Easier to hand them one and a pen in my mind. That's what I did all day on Tuesday. We had 1117 voters come through our polling place in 13 hours. That's more than one a minute. At peak times, it was more like three or four a minute. Saw at least 30 babies or young children tagging along, no worries that something wrong would go into a shredder. Process is the same if there is 1 race or 100 races.

[nolabear]

46. That makes the votes either easily manipulated or public though.

Paper ballots, though, that seems key.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

51. the red and blue was overboard

Paper is key. It can be verified by voter and public.

Instead of blue and red for a runoff, it could be a piece of paper with the name and photo of each candidate. The voter would fold it and hand it to a poll worker and watch it being placed in the box.

[nolabear]

53. Better. But marking is fine I think. Something, though, dammit!

[lpbk2713]

7. And Marco Rubio is pissed at the thought of a recount.

Sweet.

[AZ8theist]

20. poor Lil Marco...

profile in Micro cephalic Invertebrate...

[cwydro]

8. You might want to do some research.

NC has had numerous black leaders elected to office.

[misanthrope]

29. So has Virginia

and both have their Confederate and Black Belt ties, Civil Rights issues and the attendant history. That said, Virginia and North Carolina have evolved culturally in ways that have generally escaped the nucleus of the Deep South. In North Carolina, a lot of that can be attributed to effects of Charlotte and the surfeit of notable universities in the Research Triangle. That's why I have relatives and friends who sought escape from Alabama by relocating to North Carolina.

As noted by greymattermom in this thread, the influx of outsiders has changed the ATL, much in the way the aforementioned city, tech and schools have affected the Tarheel State. It is facile to see the same in Florida.

So Lester Maddox's state has made considerable progress. When we see the same kind of electoral shift in the homes of George C. Wallace and Ross Barnett then we'll know things are truly changed.

[unc70]

45. Many Repub Yankees have moved to NC

I can not speak to the subtleties of GA or FL, but in N.C. the influx of new residents and voters has been a mixed bag. The new residents are not what is driving voting trends in NC. In fact, the new residents over the last twenty years are probably less Democratic than native-born Tar Heels. They tend to be whiter and more affluent, offset by being relatively better educated. Well to do, white, techies or bankers tend towards the Libertarian end of the Republican spectrum. We have also gotten a large increase in Catholic social conservatives from places like Ohio who also vote Repub. There are also large groups of retiree and military voters.

[BumRushDaShow]

9. It happened during Reconstruction

and then Jim Crow was created to make sure that wasn't going to happen again for a century.

https://www.facinghistory.org/reconstruction-era/black-officeholders-south

[babylonsister]

10. It's us Yankees!

Or damned Yankees, to be precise. We're the ones who move here/stay.

[TNNurse]

12. Some of us southerners have been Democrats and liberals

for generations.

[babylonsister]

13. I was NOT putting down

southerners, so no need to get defensive.

Hey, the county I live in in FL is still horribly republican, and I know there are a lot of Yankees here. All I can do is what you do, vote! And try to change minds that are so unwilling to be changed.

[TNNurse]

14. I see a could bit of bashing of southerners here from time to time.

So I am defensive. There are people who believe that all racism is in the south despite the ugliness all over the country.

[babylonsister]

16. Not from me.

I lived in TX for 20+ years, GA for 5+, now FL. I almost am a southerner!

[charlyvi]

36. When the first part of your post reads "Unless you're from the South"

It’s really difficult to think you are not putting down or diminishing the South. I call confirmation bias.

[babylonsister]

38. This is not my OP, so I never said that. nt

[charlyvi]

40. Sorry.

I sincerely apologize. Got my posts mixed up.

[babylonsister]

44. It happens!

[misanthrope]

47. "Unless you played Major League Baseball

it's difficult to understand how hard it is to hit off a Cy Young winner."

"Unless you've worked in a professional kitchen, it's hard to understand the stress involved with the job."

"Unless you've witnessed all phases of numerous trials, it's hard to realize how inaccurate film and TV portrayals are."

[charlyvi]

49. Unless you're totally insensitive

it’s difficult to understand how galvanizing it can be to be liberal in the deep South. Even despite the insults and lack of respect.

[misanthrope]

50. I've been in Alabama for 54 years

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11398498

That's less than an iota of what I've witnessed and experienced here. I feel like a spy in enemy territory.

[charlyvi]

61. I've lived in Alabama for 35 years.

I was born here and my extended family has live here since the 1820's. Any shortcomings you describe in the people here I have witnessed first hand. I also lived in Chicago for 37 years and witnessed some of the same shortcomings in the people there. I can also bear witness to the kindnesses, mercies, generosity and humor of the people in both places. But even if I loathed those I know in Alabama, I wouldn't be insensitive enough to go on a message board and condemn an entire state. Your username was well chosen.

[misanthrope]

70. This thread is filled with others from the South

Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2018, 08:01 PM - Edit history (1)

who understand the optimism I am underscoring and the legacy it is fighting. Their stories parallel what I'm saying.

Bless your heart.

[charlyvi]

74. You truly are misanthropic aren't you?

Bless your heart right back baby.

Oh, and you wrote the OP, anyone else on this thread.

[misanthrope]

79. Why, thank you!

It's obvious my hardened coal nugget of a heart could bear all the help it can get.

"If you'll scratch a cynic, you'll find a disappointed idealist. And the fire never goes out completely." -George Carlin

"History ... is a nightmare from which I'm trying to awake." -James Joyce

[charlyvi]

80. I love James Joyce! (I'm an English major)

And George Carlin was a gift from Comedy God! Let’s bury this fucking hatchet and be friends since we apparently have much in common. Although I might be a bit kinder. OK?

[misanthrope]

81. I hold no animus,

as it's just a difference of opinion.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

25. I'm totally with you, TNNurse.

Born and raised in middle TN where in my memories from the 50s/60s, almost everyone was a Democrat. The only Republicans were a few rich folks that liked to bitch about taxes.

Then came Spiro Agnew and Bill Brock, and everything changed...... ......

.........

[LiberalArkie]

34. Born and raised by liberal republican parents

[misanthrope]

37. Then you should know how lonely it can be

If you've been a white Alabamian for over 50 years like I have, then you've been privy to the things certain white folks will say when they feel it's "safe." It can crop up anywhere, anytime.

It's insulting to have someone assume you harbor such bigotry solely by dint of your ethnicity, but then you understand why they feel insulated in doing so. Too many of those around them agree with their ignorance and the minority who don't are cowed by the cultural weight of "not making waves."

Just last night, my Lebanese-American wife was talking about a distant cousin marrying a Jewish man and how her aunts refused to attend the wedding because of his ethnicity. That cousin moved far from here. Likewise, when one of my wife's friends married a Jewish fellow, my mother-in-law expressed in no uncertain terms that she didn't want my wife to attend the wedding.

Just about seven years ago, an African-American classmate asked my sister-in-law's daughter to go with him to their high school Homecoming dance. Her parents stood strictly in opposition.

"Tell him y'all can be friends and that's it," my sister-in-law told my teary niece.

Of course, I've heard the brothers of that heartbroken girl blurt out racially rooted "jokes" at the dinner table. Though upbraided by their father, it showed me what they feel safe saying when guests aren't present.

My wife has attended get-togethers her sister holds for friends. She hears the remarks about "Democrats" that are obviously coded observances about African Americans. She holds her tongue and declines further inclusion.

These aren't blue-collar folks or others who normally populate stereotypes about bigoted rednecks. They are a firmly middle class, "respectable" family, with a favorable reputation. Their ranks are populated by politicians, judges, lawyers, doctors and business owners.

But then again this is gothic Southern town mired in class strata and deeply segregated.

[obamanut2012]

22. No it isn't -- the ones here in SOFL did not vote for Gillum

They are horrible -- they are not the ones voting Dem, except for a very few reps. They love Trump, they love Scott, and love DeSantis. No way they will vote for a black guy, and they didn't.

[Sedona]

11. Mr Sedona came from LA to work in Yallywood.

I'm in real estate and along for the ride.

We are joined by thousands of LA entertainment biz expats voting blue in Metro Atlanta.

[The Liberal Lion]

15. I agree with your conclusion

For me, that Duval county went both Nelson and Gillum was historic. Sure, we had Alvin Brown as mayor, but even when he was mayor this town didn't vote for a democrat in any other major election.

[Pacifist Patriot]

32. this

[lark]

58. Hey I live in Duval too.

It was one of the few rays of sunshine on Tues. night that Duval had actually turned blue, first time in decades. Since I worked on GOTV calls/canvassing and recruiting volunteers since the end of Aug. I was really really happy about this good news. Then Wed. afternoon I got the message that we were fighting for Nelson (Gillum added later when he met the threshold) and getting the provisional folks to cure their issues so the ballots could be counted. Went to FL Dem headquarters yesterday and the energy and enthusiasm were amazing, there were nearly 100 people at this one location and there were several other centers organizing and training for the complicated script. Others drove to people's houses who didn't have email to get the affidavits signed, notarized on the spot, and faxed to SOE office. Others drove to people's houses who didn't answer their phones. So proud of our party and the people in it who really care. I know Scott and others will still try to ratfuck us, but votes should be counted and hopefully the judges involved won't be pure russian repug and will care about the law and the vote.

[The Liberal Lion]

64. I thank you for your efforts.

You are a true patriot

[SCantiGOP]

17. Yes, happy days (almost) are here again

I posted earlier in the S.C. forum that we had a major upset taking Mark Sanford’s old Congressional seat around Charleston ( R was 8 point favorite on Election Day) and we gained a seat in both the State House and Senate.

Virginia now blue, NC and Georgia tending that way, Texas storming towards being competitive — some very good things for
Southern Progressives this week.

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. I was living in Georgia in the late '90's and early '00's

I still remember Roy Barnes losing to Sonny Perdue in 2002 because of angry rednecks who were pissed off that he changed the state flag. If you'd told me then that in sixteen years a black woman would come within a few percentage points of being elected governor I would've laughed.

[Awsi Dooger]

39. You would have had 100 angry responses to that post years ago

The fraud crew on this site held up Georgia 2002 as the ultimate example of vote shifting due to Diebold.

There were many factors involved in the result, as you indicate. Also, Georgia statewide polling was terrible in that period, always overstating the Democrat by huge margin. The polling model has improved in recent years.

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. Yeah, I knew Barnes was toast because of the flag issue before the election

in suburban and rural metro Atlanta the number of signs with the segregation flag and "LET US VOTE" in yards was a pretty clear indicator.

[recovering_democrat]

23. I am from the South and this is awesome.

Over half a century voting in GA, some progress but nothing comes close to this. Been in FL since moved here, learning some of the "whys " of 2000 and change even since then.

I understand the local popularity for Scott for hurricanes managing but he has a lot of bad baggage too. But DeSantis I dont want to see handling hurricane emergencies. Watching Gillium dealing with real people in Tallahassee, I am pretty sure he has the same capabilities as Scott gor that.
Keeping my fingers crossed. But like this post says, this is monumental for the old South. Awesome.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. Yes. US is progressive liberal nation if remove gerrymandering, dirty tricks, & voter suppression.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

27. And lies by the boatload.

My new saying: "grab 'em by their lies"........

And don't let go 'till they fess-up.......

[monmouth4]

26. I think a bit of thanks is due to President Obama. Their world did not come to an end and he did

many good things.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

28. Including his campaign efforts this time.

In reflection, far more good done for us than tRump did for Republicons.

They're saying over 70% of the candidates Trump flew out to support lost their elections.

[mahina]

55. Thinking this too. What a fine person.

Had to make a dent.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

33. Very interesting perspective.

I’ve been an East coaster all my life, but for a long time I was in a relationship with a guy from Louisiana.

The culture was a shock—the religiosity and conservatism were things I could never acclimate to.

[misanthrope]

41. Have you read Colin Woodard's "American Nations"?

You would find it highly intriguing.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2011/12/14/1044801/-Book-Review-American-Nations

[BlancheSplanchnik]

43. No, it sounds innnnnteresting!!!

Thanks!

[Cha]

56. It is Astounding! Appreciate

how far the South has come and these Awesome Beautiful Black candidates!

[mahina]

57. Thanks for that window in!

[SweetieD]

59. Georgia has been between 30 and 40 percent black forever and has never

Had a statewide position held by a black person since Reconstruction. It is pure racism. If everything was normal than it would mean at least 1 out of 3 governors or senators at a minimum would have been black. Maybe we need aggressive Reconstruction Era policies for the south. Amazing the government was able to do that in the 1860s-70s but today it is unfathomable.

[TNLib]

63. I know it's really is exciting to see

But unfortunately there is allot of ugliness too with voter suppression in Georgia and now they're using Florida to spawn off their crazy conspiracies and gin up the cooks again. I'm hoping that wacko's don't hurt anyone else.

[Honeycombe8]

66. Born & raised in the deep deep south. I know how remarkable that is.

Even among those who want Af Americans to have full civil rights, and who recognize them as co-citizens like anyone else, even many of them would hesitate to vote for an Af. American to have power over them, whether it's a prominent political office, or their supervisor at work.

So this is a sign (albeit weak) that things may be gradually changing. Actually, the Obama election was the first big sign. A lot of whites in the south voted for him.

A gay man being elected Governor of Colorado is also a good sign. The state where those loony tunes refused to bake a cake for a gay couple.

[edhopper]

67. What is disappointing

and infuriating is not that they came close, but that without voter suppression they would have won. There are problematic stories from Florida, and in Georgia it was just blatant, Kemp kept many more voters from casting their ballot than Abrams needed to win. It is a stolen, illegitimate election. Period.

[Politicub]

68. Abrams ran an unapologetic progressive campaign

And she may still win.

It's remarkable how close the vote was. She has awakened a progressive movement in our state that will reverberate for years.

And in my district, I am so fortunate to have Lucy McBath unseat Karen Handle. A lot of people forget that the 6th congressional district has been held by republicans since the 80s.

[niyad]

71. the other thing that fascinates me is how close these races are, despite the voter suppression

efforts, the hampering of voters, etc. one would think, with all the practice the damned pubbies have had at this, they could do a better job of fucking with our votes.

[Gothmog]

72. Texas moved closer to turning blue

[TexasBushwhacker]

75. Did it ever

A district in the Houston area that has been GOP for FIFTY YEARS went blue by a 4% margin!

The Democratic judicial candidates in Harris County ALL WON. Ft Bend County has its first African American DA.

Cruz won in 2012 by 16%. His margin against Beto was 2.5% and over 400K GOP voters went with him, rather than Cruz.

Lt Governor, Dan Patrick, won by 20% in 2014. This year the margin was 4% and his Democratic opponent, Mike Collier, is not that well known.

To me the most outstanding statistic is voter turnout. The 2014 midterm election got 4.6 Million Texans to the polls, an abysmal 33%. This time around 8.3M voted, 52.5% and only 600K less than the presidential election in 2016. THAT IS HUGE!!!

And we are NOT going back.

[Gothmog]

76. Brian Middleton is a friend

Juanita Jean's husband worked very hard to get Soros to back Brian. It was an amazing victory.

[TexasBushwhacker]

77. Amazing indeed

While Ft Bend is getting bluer, especially for the suburbs,it's still not as blue as Harris County. I am very happy for his win.

I do hope that Lina Hidalgo does a good job as Harris County Judge. Even though he's Republican, I thought Ed Emmett was pretty good at his job, and he worked his ass off with Mayor Turner during Harvey. Maybe he should primary John Cornyn for Senate in 2020.

[Gothmog]

78. Lina spoke at the October meeting of the Harris County Democratic Lawyers Association

My son voted for Ed (his only non-Democratic vote). I was surprised that she won. I like Lina a great deal even though she is very young. KP George also won the county judge race in Fort Bend.

I was busy on voter protection efforts all during early voting and on election day.

[recovering_democrat]

82. Yes, monumental.

How many Georgians remember Andrew Young, well known and respected as Carter's Ambassador to UN, Mayor of Atlanta, GA 5th district Congressman. Life long civil rights leader with Dr. MLK. Well loved in GA. Ran for Governor 1990 lost big to Miller Long ago.

Monumental is way too mild a word to express how far we have come. Change has come.