Thousand Oaks shooter shot all the security at the club first.

[Cattledog]

Damn!

Sheriff Dean said Mr. Long first shot a security officer outside the club and then walked inside, turned to the right and shot “other security and employees” before starting to fire on patrons in the main part of the club.

Sheriff Dean said that at least six off-duty officers were inside when the gunman opened fire.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/us/shooting-california-thousand-oaks.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

[Roland99]

1. Mentally unstable?? Not a chance

[LisaL]

12. Seriously?

You think the guy who killed people for no apparent reason is mentally stable?

[Roland99]

15. He purposefully took out security. he knew what he was doing.

[LisaL]

21. That doesn't exclude mental instability.

[qazplm135]

51. being mentally unstable

does not mean being an idiot or incapable of intelligent action.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

61. you got that right, Roland99

[AwakeAtLast]

62. And planned it

like a military ambush!

[sfwriter]

2. If only there had been SEVEN good guys with guns, that would have done it.

Required good guys with guns are always n+1 for any shooting.

[Wintryjade]

4. Right.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

52. The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is 100 good guys with guns.

The fact he took out the security guards first pretty much shoots down Trump's victim-shaming statement that the synagogue should have had a guard at the door.

[zipplewrath]

3. There was an officer at the Pulse shooting

There was an officer at Parkland.

A good guy with a gun doesn't always stop a bad guy with a gun. At best they just tend to slow him down.

[Straw Man]

9. Yes, there was.

There was an officer at the Pulse shooting

And he abandoned the fight.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/06/08/pulse-nightclub-security-guard-once-hailed-a-hero-is-being-sued-by-victims-of-the-mass-shooting/?utm_term=.59490520f781

There was an officer at Parkland.

And he "sheltered in place" outside the school.

A good guy with a gun doesn't always stop a bad guy with a gun.

No, especially when he takes no action whatsoever.

At best they just tend to slow him down.

You say that like it's a bad thing. By slowing him down, they save lives. Please do not diminish that.

[LisaL]

13. Well in this particular case the killer shot the officer first.

So it didn't even slow him down, having an officer there.

[Straw Man]

17. No, he shot an unarmed security guard first.

When the responding officers arrived, he exchanged fire with them, killing one. The incident ended shortly after the arrival of armed officers, as is usually the case.

[LisaL]

23. Where does it say that security guard wasn't armed?

[WillowTree]

24. They said that the security guards weren't armed on at least 3 news reports I heard this morning.

[Straw Man]

27. Right.

A security guard at the door of a bar is also known as a "bouncer." Bar bouncers in suburban Southern California are not typically armed.

[Hoyt]

31. If the guard had several weapons strapped to his body, he wouldn't have had a chance to pull it.

Why do gunners always try to push the "more guns would have prevented this" BS?

[Blue_true]

38. The officer that was killed was armed. He certainly was carrying pink balloons on his hip.

Plus, there was an armed State Trooper with the officer that got shot. So the shooting did not end when armed officers showed up.

In my area, off duty officers are armed. I don't know what the rules are in California.

[Straw Man]

46. Beg pardon?

So the shooting did not end when armed officers showed up.

Actually, it did. Two officers arrived and put an end to the killing spree. Sadly, one officer died in the effort.

When met with armed resistance, the perpetrator ultimately retreated and took his own life, as is often the case.

[Blue_true]

47. That is not what news reports say.

The trooper got people out then the fallen officer, then drew back to await help while the shooting continued, that is what news accounts are saying. The shooting did not stop when the first two officers showed up.

[Straw Man]

48. Could you please cite those news reports?

I haven't seen any that bear out what you're saying.

[Blue_true]

49. A Reuthers or AP report yesterday detailed the events.

Shooting continued after the first two officers arrived, but stopped before the SWAT team arrived.

[Straw Man]

53. Could you please point it out to me?

I can't find any AP or Reuters story that mentions what was going on inside after the initial encounter with law enforcement.

USA Today says the shooting lasted "about three minutes."

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2018/11/08/thousand-oaks-shooting-timeline/1931287002/

This is consistent with the time it took for the first officers to arrive on scene. It is not consistent with the reported "15 to 20 minutes" that elapsed between the first law-enforcement encounter and the arrival of the SWAT team.

https://www.apnews.com/d2737a3853bc4aea8a27c957c75c88ab

[Blue_true]

56. Look, I read the article. I read a lot of articles.

The article clearly stated that shooting continued after the police officer went down and that the trooper focused on clearing people and getting the fallen officer out of the bar, then he took up a position and waited for help. But the time the SWAT team and other officers arrived, the shooting had stopped. Exactly WHAT reason would I have to make that up?

[Straw Man]

57. OK. Show them to me so I can read them too.

I would like to see what the articles actually stated. You may have made unsupported inferences. It happens to the best of us.

[Blue_true]

59. You find them. I don't make up stuff like that.

Because per the article, more people were shot after the first police arrived. As I read it, I found the thought of that to be horrific. Why in the fuck would I make something like that up?

[Straw Man]

60. They're your assertions. It's not my job to support them.

I haven't been able to find any articles that support what you're saying. I'm not accusing you of making anything up. There is a possibility that you are honestly mistaken. Let's see the articles, and then we can discuss it. Otherwise it's just an unsupported assertion.

I did make an honest effort to find articles that support your assertion. I couldn't find any. You are in a better position to do this than I. Use your browser history to find where you got your information. Post the links. Then we'll talk.

[EffieBlack]

54. Armed and trained

[raccoon]

26. It would also save lives if every motherfucker with a pulse wasn't able to go out and buy a whole f

Fucking Arsenal. Nt

[Straw Man]

28. I wouldn't call one handgun ...

... a "Fucking Arsenal."

[ChubbyStar]

29. Seriously? Really?

You want to debate semantics after people have just been murdered? Shame on you.

[raccoon]

33. THANK YOU. NT

[Straw Man]

45. Yes, seriously.

Hysterical hyperbole serves no one. It's not about semantics. It's about facts.

[raccoon]

32. I guess I was thinking of that killer here in South Carolina

Who killed 2 LEOs

But those people in Thousand Oaks are just as dead anyway.

I am so sick of this shit.

[EffieBlack]

55. At least 11 grieving families are taking little comfort in him being "slowed down" AFTER he

slaughtered their loved ones.

They probably would have preferred that he’d been slowed down BEFORE he legally bought that gun.

[Straw Man]

58. And dozens of others are immensely grateful that he WAS "slowed down."

Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2018, 03:18 PM - Edit history (1)

They probably would have preferred that he’d been slowed down BEFORE he legally bought that gun.

OK -- let's talk concrete action plans. What are you proposing to achieve that?

[atreides1]

5. A planned attack??

"Mr. Long first shot a security officer outside the club and then walked inside, turned to the right and shot “other security and employees” before starting to fire on patrons in the main part of the club."


This indicates that he might have been planning this attack for some time. He evidently did his homework and already knew where security and staff were going to be located!!!

Now they just have to find a motive!!!

[LiberalFighter]

6. What will be the solution that Trump, Republicans, and the NRA say is needed?

More guns?
More people with guns?
People should shoot guns in the bar instead of dancing?
Close all bars?
Tell any potential shooter they must have a wrist band indicating they can shoot people?

[sinkingfeeling]

7. So much for be safe if there are good guys with guns around.

[Straw Man]

11. Are you saying that the outcome would have been better ...

... if there had NOT been a "good guy with a gun" on scene?

[essme]

14. Nope. I think the point

is, that it would have been about the same.

Not sure what your argument is.

[Straw Man]

18. I'm sorry, but ...

Nope. I think the point

is, that it would have been about the same.

... you are absolutely, tragically wrong. If there had not been an armed response, he would have continued killing until he ran out of ammunition.

Not sure what your argument is.

My argument is that "good guys with guns" ended this incident and saved many, many lives.

[sinkingfeeling]

19. He shot the security guards first. I have not read how long it took

from the time law enforcement arrived until shooter killed himself. This post was about the fact that he knew there were security people in place and he disabled them first.

[Straw Man]

43. The security guards were not armed.

They were just victims like everyone else.

[Blue_true]

39. The Sheriff said there were five off duty police officers inside the club.

In my area, off duty officers are armed. I don't know what the rules are in California juristictions.

[Straw Man]

42. If they were drinking, they should not have been armed.

Rules for off-duty carry vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but that rule is universal.

In any case, the stories of off-duty officers shielding victims with their bodies would make no sense if those officers were armed. They would have been returning fire.

[cwydro]

22. The security guy was unarmed.

No gun.

[maxsolomon]

8. he was trained in assault tactics in the military. it shouldn't surprise anyone.

its just a new wrinkle in the profile of the alienated rampage shooter.

rampage shootings will never stop in a country so saturated with guns that imposes few responsibilities on their owners. organize the unorganized militia.

[LisaL]

10. Exactly.

He was ex-military so he knew very well how to efficiently kill. He was trained to to do so.

[Autumn]

16. A witness said he used smoke bombs for cover. Trained well, by the US military.

Only in a war zone do you need an extended magazine. Tragic.

[cwydro]

20. The security guard was unarmed.

The off duty cops were not working security.

Your OP is a bit misleading, but I assume you know that.

[Raine]

25. The off duty police did not have guns

here in California they're not allowed to have guns in a bar. I remember the off duty dumb ass cop that was in a bar (not in California) doing back flips and his gun went off and hit someone! That''s why off duty cops don't have guns in a bar.

[Fla_Democrat]

35. FBI agent, happened in Denver

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/11/08/fbi-agent-accidentally-shot-man-pleads-not-guilty/

[Raine]

36. Thanks

I forgot he was FBI or where it was (I'm not getting any younger, haha).

[Blue_true]

41. How about ankle pieces? The rule needs to change.

Give them guns, set very strict rules on their behavior with those guns on them (i.e., no damned break dancing).

[Hoyt]

30. That's exactly what will happen in schools too.

[major debacle]

34. They obviously did not have enough security

... if he was able to cut them all down before starting in on the unarmed patrons... speaking of which, if they HAD been armed, locked and loaded and firearms at the ready while they danced, more of them might have survived.

Or they might have cut each other to pieces in their attemps to shoot the bad guy.

[Blue_true]

37. Do off duty police in California carry a concealed weapon?

In eastcoast cities and Chicago, they do from what I understand.

[Azathoth]

40. He was a marine combat veteran

Situational awareness and threat assessment were drilled into him.

[dembotoz]

50. yep not a deranged high school kid...this guy was trained

he might have been crazy but he knew how to attack

[DesertRat]

44. It doesn't matter if there is an armed cop or armed security guard present.