College Station killer's dad says of him: "He was crazy as hell"...but was still allowed to own guns

[brentspeak]

No meaningful, in-depth background checks conducted by law enforcement in gun-crazy Texas. Any known nutjob who hasn't yet been convicted of a serious crime is allowed to assemble an arsenal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/13/thomas-caffall-texas-am-shooting_n_1774282.html

In an interview with KPRC, a local television station, Caffall’s stepfather, Richard Weaver, said Caffall was a “ticking time bomb” who quit his job nine months ago and vowed never to work again.

"He was crazy as hell," Weaver said. "At one point, we were afraid that he was going to come up here and do something to his mother and me."

[RC]

1. Yeah, but..., but..., but...

Guns are perfectly safe. Most of them have safety thingy built in and everything.

Edited to add ---->

[Missycim]

18. Shame the family

didn't try to get him help or at least report him to the proper officials, they should at least be sued in civil court maybe even be brought up on charges.

[Ikonoklast]

22. What charges, praytell?

I see you have no clue as to how law enforcement deals with people with mental problems.

Here's a clue: Until a law is broken, THEY DON'T.

Here's another clue : There is no law in this country that says you can be incarcerated for just being mentally ill, and it matters not what the family says or does if the person is no longer a minor child.

Until the time a mentally illperson becomes harmful to themselves or others, there is very little that can be done that doesn't violate their civil rights.

[Missycim]

23. If you come out and say your son

is crazy (as the father said) and you dont do anything or at least TRY then how is that not in a little bit their fault?

I didnt say he had to be locked up but his name could be put in that system they use for background checks so he could be flagged from buying weapons.

[Ikonoklast]

28. Not legal in any way.

You do not understand how the system works at all.

You can accuse anyone you want of being mentally ill, and without that person making a threat against themselves or others or acting out in a violent and dangerous manner, the police have no authority to do anything whatsoever.

It is not against the law in this country to be mentally ill.

In the past, people have accused family members of such in order to gain hold of their assets; it didn't take much more than a few people to swear you were acting odd in order to get you incarcerated.

Those days are gone, and for good reason.

[atreides1]

29. His father was a psychiatrist/psychologist?

I don't think a relative saying "he's crazy" is accepted as a diagnosis under the law! Wouldn't he have had to be seen by an actual doctor in order for it to really count?

And he was an adult legally responsible for his own actions!

[yardwork]

32. "Flagged from buying weapons?" There would be riots.

There is constitutional right to bear arms in the U.S. that is interpreted very very broadly. Extremely powerful lobbying organizations like the NRA make sure of that. There is no way "flag somebody from buying weapons" based on a tip or a report from a family member. No system for that whatsoever.

[Confusious]

34. Haha

Ain't gonna happen

I don't think there is such a thing.

Unless you've been a criminal, you got guns rights.

I really doubt, highly doubt, would be shocked to find that there was any such list where you could report someone as crazy and have gun rights taken away.

They have to kill someone first.

If you can prove me wrong, I will be shocked. I could be full of shit, but I really, really doubt it.

But my gut tells me the NRA wouldn't allow it. A pre-law-abiding citizen might have their gun rights taken away.

A post-law-abiding citizen is a criminal btw.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Sadly, not the way the system works

In some states a psychiatrist will file, in others, tell me who would do this...the purchaser is asked if they have mental issues, been commited, you know the drill. Sure, they will say yes in the form....

Don't worry a national standard will not be reached. The gun fans will make sure of it.

[Starboard Tack]

63. If the system worked the way you suggest, nobody would be able to own a gun.

There are many who think all gun owners are crazy and could report them to your "system". Truth is they are not all crazy, probably less than 10%. Of course that's a lot of crazies with guns waiting for their moment in the spotlight.

[yardwork]

31. What were they supposed to do? "Report him to the proper authorities?" Who?

There are no "proper authorities" to report somebody who is seriously mentally ill unless they are actually an obvious threat. There are millions of people with mental illnesses who are never violent. We have a practically non-existent mental health safety net. There is no system. People don't seem to understand this. The government has dismantled the public safety net for mental health care - it happened decades ago and the remaining funding is cut year after year. There is simply no access to health care for many people with severe mental illness and certainly no "proper authorities" with any authority to do anything.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Are you familiar in how hard it is to commit an adult

In this country? 51-50 holds also work for 72 hors when they occurr and no follow up.

Gets worst, in some states haveng them does not preclude you from having guns.

You also are making a common assumption, you know the military saying regarding clusterfucks, that the parents coud legally, operative word, legally, could do something.

[Missycim]

52. I was misunderstood

I was not hoping that they'd be committed but more along to lines of having a record of their difficulties so they will have a harder time getting a gun.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. In Texas it makes zero difference

In California iirc it does. But Cali has much tougher gun laws than Texas.

The national database is not affected one way or the other if you are hearing voices and taking meds either, even if it should.

But the NRA will not allow that, since well, next thing you know they'll be taking your guns... wish I was kidding by the way.

[Ikonoklast]

56. Still not legal.

Unless found to be a danger to themselves or others, there is no legal mechanism keeping people from exercising their rights under the Constitution.

What type of list would you have local law enforcement have, and who would determine who gets to be on that list?

If I ever found myself on such a list because my neighbor thinks that I am crazy, own firearms, and told the police that someone needs to curtail my rights, that lawsuit would be filed so fast it would break the speed of sound.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. In Cali a psychiatrist, iirc, can file

But the standard is almost as high as danger to self or others...it does help, and that, we shoud have nationwide.

[frylock]

64. clearly you don't know fuckall

[Missycim]

66. Clearly I dont care what you think so

have a nice day...

[frylock]

75. fuck. all.

[sabrina 1]

67. They probably did. It's very hard to get help for someone like that. The most likely

way is if he does something, like threatens his family eg then the police can come and either put him jail, which he will get out of in a few days, or as happened with someone I know, take him to a psychiatric hospital, which is probably the best thing to do. The problem then is the hospital cannot keep him for more than, airc, six weeks at most without his consent. So, after that he will be released. It becomes a cycle for families with people like this because we have no real Mental Health Care system in this country.

The family probably was living in fear of him. Too bad they had no good options to get him to a place where he could not harm them or anyone else and maybe get some treatment.

This imo, is the real root of the problem. There are so many people like this in the country for some reason and few of them are getting any help.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Not weeks, three days,

72 hour involuntary psychiatric hold.

[sabrina 1]

70. True, but if the person agrees to go, and sometimes they do if the other option is jail

they can still only be held for six weeks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. True, and most people are unaware of this

aren't they?

[sabrina 1]

78. I would think the only people aware of it are people who have dealt with the problem

and it is a shock when you find out. There should be a lot more information in the general public about our abysmal Mental Health Care system.

[lonestarnot]

2. Well they do name their streets after bushitlers.

[sadbear]

3. They're complicit.

[NotThisTime]

16. You don't know they were complicit....

Take it from a family who has that gnawing feeling about a family member, we've tried everything, even gone so far as to directly ask the police if something tragic is going to have to happen before they can do something. It's a bad situation...... don't blame the parents unless you know they had actionable intelligence they did not share. Otherwise, they were afraid yet could do nothing to stop it.

[sadbear]

17. Bullshit

They had a responsibility to do more than they did. If they knew he was "crazy as hell" and was amassing an arsenal, there are more things they could have done. Being afraid is not an excuse.

[Occulus]

24. Like what?

Police aren't an option. Being nuts and building an arsenal are not grounds for involuntary incarceration.

Whether that should be grounds for having someone committed is a different argument. On the one hand, it might prevent incidents like this one. On the other, your angry mother-in-law may tell someone a bogus story to get you thrown into a padded cell "for your own good" or "because he might attack us".

It should be hard to get that to happen, and I wouldn't be so quick to judge the parents (besides, they didn't even live with him, apparently). Sadly, outside of calling the police and notifying them of their concerns, and encouraging him to get help, there probably is very little more they could legally have done to prevent this.

[sadbear]

25. Are you suggesting they were right to sit on their hands?

And do absolutely nothing?

I never suggested the guy be incarcerated or even committed. He just needed help and law enforcement needed to be aware of who they were dealing with.

A good friend of mine died yesterday by that guy's actions. A county constable, too. Do you think that if they had known who they were dealing with that they would have tried to serve that eviction notice in the manner they did?

By doing absolutely nothing, they helped this happen.

[atreides1]

36. And what would the authorities in Texas have done?

If his parents had notified law enforcement, under what Texas law would the police have the authority to put him on any list? Where is your evidence, not your anger, evidence...site some Texas statute that would have allowed the police to take him in, to keep him from getting a gun...what law are you referring to.

Maybe you're just too close to this to think rationally.

[sadbear]

40. Is that all you can think about?

Putting him on a list, taking him in? I'm not suggesting that at all. All I'm saying is that it would have been very helpful if the authorities just knew who and what they were dealing with. And of course, maybe helping the guy get treatment for his illness. Stop with your knee-jerk reactions to ANY suggestions that might prevent this shit from happening.

[Ikonoklast]

37. I know that you are angry over this, but I have a question.

Have you ever personally tried to contact local law enforcement over your concerns for the mental health of a family member?

I have.


"Getting Blown Off" is the closest I can describe to their reaction, because "Completely Ignored" would not be true.

They did listen to me for three or four minutes before showing me the door.

[sadbear]

41. Would they blow you off if you informed them this person had amassed an arsenal of firearms, too?

A and B separately won't get any attention, but put A and B together and you might get a different result.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Yes, actually yes.

Part of the reason is the number of reports they get of this a day.

Peter, wolf..comes to mind.

[sadbear]

46. Bullshit

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. You are talking from another place

but seriously, they will take the report and it will go into the circular filing cabinet.

Yes, I know cops. Yes family were police officers for 20 + years and retired from the force.

Yes, my father in law was a crisis negotiator, not for one but several agencies, and that is one problem. If you start getting (insert PD agency here) many reports of people amassing arsenals, first there is nothing you can do about it, until they do something about it. My neighbor downstairs for years was an avid collector, and HAD AN ARSENAL, there was nothing anybody in law enforcement could do about it, nothing. Second, they will rarely, if ever, go into the dispatch database. It is dispatch who at many times issue warnings et al.

Third, they only take the precautions of going with SWAT when it is a known quantity, aka due to previous encounters with PD.

This is also a problem with resources, or rather lack of them. I am sorry you lost your friend, but this is a too common story sadly.

[Ikonoklast]

48. I would tell you the entire story, but you wouldn't believe it.

Suffice it to say that LEO's saw me as their problem because I was bothering them, and even after laws got broken by the person I warned them about they still saw me as a 'troublemaker'.

It took a court order and a visit from a bailiff for the local police to get their shit together.

Tell the police that a person you suspect is mentally ill is amassing an arsenal, and the first thing they will ask you is "Are any laws being broken by this individual?".

If your answer is "No.", then the conversation is over.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Sadly, your story is way too common.

And yes, I do believe you.

[sadbear]

50. You assume all PD's are the same.

I commend you for trying. You did what you were supposed to. Just because you didn't get the desired response doesn't mean that we should give up. What they choose to do with that information is their problem.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. You have no idea if they did

And Texas is one f the states with the weakest mental health safety net in the country.

Regardless, unless somebody is committed they do not lose heir guns. It's next to imposible to have somebody committed.

We have a very weak system, partially this is the wind Reagan sowed, partly it is the NRA.

I only hope that put of all these tragedies the People will finally have it and demand the changes a strong vocal, and organized, minority are not allowing.

[Confusious]

35. There's nothing they can do

The authorities won't do anything if he hasn't committed a crime.

There's no place he can be committed to, unless they got big bucks.

You can't tie him up, that would be kidnapping and illegal.

[sadbear]

42. Nothing they can do?

Do you think if they knew about this guy's arsenal and state of mind that they would have sent a single county constable to serve an eviction notice?

[Ikonoklast]

51. What was his 'state of mind' though?

Was he hearing voices? Hallucinating? Acting or speaking in a bizarre manner? Talking to God?

All perfectly legal.

Unless Cafall actually said, "I am going to shoot either myself or someone else soon." there was still nothing police could do about it.

And one other thing, you assume that the local LEO's routinely pass on information of this sort to county officials.

It has been my experience that county officials check with local LEO in order to see if there were any previous problems with a person they are serving notice to.

The constable was enforcing a civil, not criminal matter.

[sadbear]

53. Your experience is irrelevant.

Just because you experienced it a certain way doesn't mean that it's always that way. Anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Actually that is not his experience

That is the legal standard. Nobody will do a 51-50, where it would go into the database, unless the person is "a danger to self or others." Tricky phrase, but important.

[Ikonoklast]

60. Then experience it for yourself.

Get out and talk to local LE, ask them how things actually work in situations such as this, what they can and cannot do.

Talk to attorneys familiar with dealing with people adjudicated not mentally competent, how that ruling was reached, and the laws pertaining to mentally ill people in this country and what rights they retain.

Talk to psychiatrists who deal with situations just like this on a daily basis, and the difficulty in getting people who desperately need help committed before they do violence.

Talk to the local public mental health providers about the difficulties they have in dealing with mentally ill people that need help, aren't sick enough to get it, or simply refuse any help outright.

Ask all of them about what they are legally allowed to do, and what restraints they come up against that are in place to protect the rights of those who refuse help.


I assure you, I have done all of these things, and more.

You reject my personal experience out-of-hand, yet counter with nothing to support a position contrary to my experiences.

There is nothing stopping you from educating yourself on this matter.

It will be an eye-opener for you if you do.


Please do not feel that I am in any way unsympathetic toward the death of your friend, I am very sorry for your loss.

[hack89]

4. Are you suggesting that we go back to the days when it was easy to involuntarily commit

mentally ill people? Because in the past that is exactly what the cops would have done to him if he was as crazy as his stepfather says.

[longship]

10. No, it's time for the NRA to admit that guns for everybody is a bad policy. nt

And, no. I will not respond to any response. Deal with it. Every time we have a mass shooting DU devolves into the gungeon, which I have long ago, and appropriately Trashed.

I support gun ownership rights and hunting. But one has to draw a fucking line.

Bye to this thread.

[rDigital]

12. Individuals are responsible for their own actions.

If there is a will to hurt people, they will find a way. The NRA may seem like a low hanging fruit, but they are not at fault for what this person did. No more than AAA is responsible for drunk drivers.

Mental health hygiene, access and awareness seem to be the real issues here.

[Bandit]

19. Just like a drug pusher has no responsibility for what a drug addict does.

Drugs don't do bad things people do...Right!!!!

[bongbong]

27. Don't you ever get tired?

Don't you gun-relgionists ever get tired of being shills for the NRA, and posting their Talking Points or variants of their Talking Points?

In this case, the tired old debunked Talking Point is a variant of "guns don't kill people, people kill people". (just pointing it out for the clueless gun-relgionists)

[Tommy_Carcetti]

33. Guns don't kill people....

....people with ridiculously easy legal access to guns (thanks to NRA lobbying) who have no business owning guns kill people....with those guns.

[rDigital]

58. Gun Moses, please show us the way. Debunk posts by decree and guide us through the desert.

You never provide any proof, but you don't have to. I believe in you, Gun Moses. Lead us to the promised land.

[bongbong]

62. Recipe

> I believe in you, Gun Moses. Lead us to the promised land.

OK, first, give up your Rambo fantasies. Then give up all the fear you have, that makes you tremble in your boots. Then you'll become a good Liberal, one of those "wimpy" ones that's "tough enough" to face the world without a weapon.

[rDigital]

65. Gun Moses, this simply isn't going to work.

I enjoy going shirtless and wearing the red headband to much. I don't wear boots, so there is nothing to tremble in at this time. I'm not very tough and I don't have to face the world, for I live in the sewer with some turtles. They're heroes in a half shell and they're green They're the worlds most fearsome fighting teens.

[bongbong]

72. LOL

> I live in the sewer with some turtles.

Are your fellow gun-relgionists down there with you, stroking their Precious?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

11. my girlfriend has been assaulted twice and a relative was murdered.

By total fucking lunatics who should have been committed decades earlier. The psycho who assaulted my girlfriend and was actually apprehended was one of those souls so progressively being "treated in the community" but had wandered away from the group home to smoke crack.

There is sure as hell a happy medium that sees violent lunatics taken off the street before they kill somebody.

[hack89]

5. Looks like we need to overhaul our mental health system

starting with single payer health care.

[w8liftinglady]

9. there is exactly ONE mental health resource in Brazos County.

Home of Texas A &M University.

Um,yeah...we need some help in the mental health department here.

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/Layouts/ContentPage.aspx?pageid=36225

[Lone_Star_Dem]

6. Yep. I read that.

So, what's new?

[Ruby the Liberal]

7. Shocking.

[justanidea]

8. I think the better question is why wasn't this person committed?

If he was described as a ticking time bomb by his own parents, what was he doing out among the public untreated?

Shouldn't he have been receiving care for his illness?

Kind of hard to take away someone's gun rights due to metal illness if they have never been declared mentally ill through due process (which is required to take away gun rights, or any right for that matter)

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. There should be more than just "committed" and "allowed to own guns"

such as "under treatment, not allowed to own guns, but not confined to a secure institution".

[madokie]

15. The problem with guns and ownership is

Burglars steal guns, love to find guns in homes they burglarize and I believe that plays a big part in which homes they chose to burglarize and once the thieves have those guns in their possession they will sell said gun to anyone who will give them some money, or drugs in some cases, for them. I don't know the answers and don't purport to and I support private ownership of guns but something needs to be done about securing guns from people who steal and then resell them to people who shouldn't have one.
Difficult yes but we need to work heading in this direction rather than pointing fingers and blame.

This is not directed at you personally M_V
This is my opinion for what its worth

[slackmaster]

21. Have you ever tried to get someone committed, or adjudicated as mentally incompetent?

It's very, very difficult and usually very expensive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. You are not familiar with the process, are you

[n2doc]

14. In America you are free

Free to be insane. Until you kill/hurt someone. Then you get 'treated' in Jail (or buried, in this case). Our Mental Health system in a nutshell.

[rDigital]

59. By this logic, every man is a rapist who just hasn't raped yet. It's a slippery slope. nt

[n2doc]

61. Not what I said

Mental illness can be diagnosed. Being a certain future rapist cannot.

My point is that we let mentally ill people do as they please, and the only care we routinely offer them is the "care" of a jail cell when they commit a crime. Their families are powerless to do anything to get them care, especially if they are bipolar/paranoid/delusional and resist it. I guess society has made the choice that it is better to let them suffer on the streets rather than locking them up with only a diagnosis. Cheaper that way, I suppose.

[slackmaster]

20. Anyone who has not been adjudicated by a court of law as mentally incompetent cannot be denied...

...a firearm, the freedom to go wherever they please, vote, associate with others, a trial by jury, etc. because some people think he's crazy.

Except maybe in New Jersey. (That's not sarcasm. People in NJ have to get approval from local police before they can buy a firearm legally.)

[Tommy_Carcetti]

26. But the NRA told me that only criminals use guns to illegally kill people.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

68. Illegal guns at that!(nt)

[Kaleva]

71. People have rights. Opinions aren't good enough.

[hedgehog]

74. For comparison - look at all the street people who are mentally ill,

not to mention that there are more mentally ill people in prison than in treatment. Their families didn't all abandon them, but there is absolutely nothing a family can do for someone over 18 who doesn't want to be helped. Living on the street in the middle of winter doesn't count as being in immediate danger of harming oneself!

Back in the 70's there was a perfect storm - a movement for patient rights - (long needed because so many people had been abused), a movement to close state hospitals, a movement that claimed there was no such thing as mental illness, etc. We threw out the old system, but never got around to building a new one.

[Kaleva]

76. It isn't easy to get someone admitted. I know that from personal experience.

[Kalidurga]

77. Finally some honesty from a family member...

I don't think there was anything his family could have done to prevent this. I don't even think they actually thought something like this would happen. I don't know if they even knew he had a gun. But, they did know he was crazy. And even though they thought he might be dangerous to them they didn't move or do anything drastic, which seems to underline the fact that it was a small consideration and not a absolute possibility. I have family members that I am pretty sure are crazy as hell, to put it mildly. I don't think these family members are a threat to anyone, but if something happens I can't say I would be completely shocked either.